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Garmin 310xt For Ultras


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#1 Running fan

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:54 PM

Hi to all Garmin users -- keen for your advice! I am due to run the GOW100+ miler in a couple of weeks and keen to get the most out of my Garmin 310XT. Given that I am likely to be on the course for 30+ hours, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can best use my Garmin given that the battery life is only 20 hours. If I turn off the GPS and use the foot pod will I get longer battery life? Your expertise is much appreciated,
Peter.

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#2 vat

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 08:33 PM

I think the 20 hours is the best possible, when not using the footpod or HRM.  If you're okay with turning the GPS off why not just use a regular watch?

#3 Gone2thepack

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:10 PM

View Postvat, on Oct 2 2010, 06:33 PM, said:

I think the 20 hours is the best possible, when not using the footpod or HRM.  If you're okay with turning the GPS off why not just use a regular watch?
Think i saw somewhere of a thread where a battery pack was mentioned that can be tucked into your Camelbak.
Might be worth a look.
Cheers

#4 Running fan

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 10:16 PM

View Postvat, on Oct 2 2010, 09:33 PM, said:

I think the 20 hours is the best possible, when not using the footpod or HRM.  If you're okay with turning the GPS off why not just use a regular watch?
Good point, but I would still like to know the distance that I am covering in real time as I have found that it gives me a mental boost in long races. Does turning the gps off BUT keeping the foot pod accelerometer/distance measuring device on give better battery life and if so is 30 hrs achievable?

#5 redbackrun

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 07:46 AM

View PostGone2thepack, on Oct 2 2010, 09:10 PM, said:

Think i saw somewhere of a thread where a battery pack was mentioned that can be tucked into your Camelbak.
Might be worth a look.
Cheers


here's for the 305 extended battery pack for 305 but states he couldn't find the right adapter for the 310xt yet.

#6 henryjoseph

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:11 AM

I don't have an answer myself, but you could google "DC RainMaker" (a guy who does heaps of watch/GPS reviews) and he might have an answer on his site, or otherwise you could email him and ask. I found his site really helpful in deciding Garmin v other brands and, then, 310XT v 405, etc...

Edit: Whoops, haha, just realised the link above was already to DC's site...

Edited by henryjoseph, 03 October 2010 - 09:11 AM.


#7 RobGrinter

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 08:40 PM

Running Fan, I am not 100% sure about the advice I gave you on Saturday and after doing some research the I am non the wiser at this point.

When Chilli gets back I will talk to him about the footpod and extent of expected battery life. Further it may be feasible to loan you a 310xt as a 2nd unit. ie 1st one will give you 18 - 20 hours, turn on the 2nd one for the remainder.

Cheers
Rob

#8 Perseus

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:49 PM

View PostRunning fan, on Oct 2 2010, 10:16 PM, said:

Good point, but I would still like to know the distance that I am covering in real time as I have found that it gives me a mental boost in long races. Does turning the gps off BUT keeping the foot pod accelerometer/distance measuring device on give better battery life and if so is 30 hrs achievable?
The GPS on my 310 is kaput so I've been using the foot pod. I think 30 hrs battery is easily achievable. However there are problems. One, the 310 can only record 20 hours of data. Two, the footpod isn't going to be accurate on trails.

#9 chilliman

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:45 AM

View PostPerseus, on Oct 3 2010, 09:49 PM, said:

One, the 310 can only record 20 hours of data.

Agree with Perueus that the battery life is not the issue here, from the 310xt manual :
Posted Image

For charging on the run, have a look at this thread. The 405 clip idea is the same as for the 310.

I'm just about to run a little experiment in the shop with a fully charged 310 on a foot pod and see how much data we can store and for how long, will see how long charge will last too without GPS. From memory the foot pod samples pretty evenly at about 6 second intervals, but i will confirm once we get the data.

Apart from using 2 devices, if you didn't want historical data, then perhaps stop and delete the run file half way. Just a thought.

Sorry I missed you on Saturday Peter, Yurrebilla beckoned.
Will report back here.

#10 scf

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:11 PM

View Postchilliman, on Oct 6 2010, 10:15 AM, said:

Agree with Perueus that the battery life is not the issue here, from the 310xt manual :
Posted Image
I'd not noticed that before, but my experience suggests it can store a LOT more than that.

I've had my 310xt since May and I have not deleted any data from it yet. Currently I have over 52 hours of running history on it, most of that with HR data. Checking the Active memory status it says I've used 55% of memory and 64% of laps. At this rate I will run out of lap memory at around 80 hours. If I slow down the frequency it generates laps I could get to 90 hours before running out of memory.

It can record up to 1000 laps, so unless you set a very low autolap, you should have no problem running out of laps over 30 hours. I have mine set to autolap each km and as I average just over 5 min/km, I can in theory run for over 80 hours before running our of lap memory.  (1000 x 5 / 60 = 83 hours which is consistent with the rate I am currently consuming lap memory).

I don't know that autolap or pace would influence the rate that memory is consumed, so based on the rate it is being consumed on my 310xt, I'd have to say it can easily hold more than 30 hours (or 3x's that in my experience). I would assume that accessory data would influence the rate it is consumed. I do most of my running with the HRM and as already noted even with that I should still be able to record 90 hours of data (ignoring laps). I'd guess it would be able to store even more without HR data (and less if I were a rider who also recorded cadence data).

Sorry, I can't help with the battery life.

Hope this helps,
Steve

#11 Spud

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:19 PM

Steve I think you'll find the unit will happily store general stats on runs, but the actual GPS plot/trace gets overwritten as memory fills up.
So older runs lose their complete data set so to speak.
To check this upload one of your older runs to Sporttracks and see if the trace, elevation data etc are still there?

#12 chilliman

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:26 PM

View Postscf, on Oct 6 2010, 05:11 PM, said:

It can record up to 1000 laps, so unless you set a very low autolap, you should have no problem running out of laps over 30 hours.

The number of laps isn't the issue, I think it is just a maximum display value of 999 on the device field that sets that anyway.
The lap data is used for summary history information on the device, and also interpolated amongst the track points.

It is more the trackpoint data that needs to be stored. As I have mentioned in a number of other threads the smarts in the Garmins will typically sample trackpoint data from the GPS between 1-9 seconds, depending on pace and directional changes. The Garmin will assume you are moving in a straight line at a constant pace unless it detects otherwise, hence they quote on average 20hrs at an average of 4 seconds between trackpoints.

An example of a GPS trackpoint (5 seconds apart in this case), this is the data that takes up the space:
<Trackpoint>
			<Time>2010-06-10T07:09:31Z</Time>
			<Position>
			  <LatitudeDegrees>-47.8802379</LatitudeDegrees>
			  <LongitudeDegrees>95.1346353</LongitudeDegrees>
			</Position>
			<AltitudeMeters>278.0040283</AltitudeMeters>
			<DistanceMeters>28364.2353516</DistanceMeters>
			<HeartRateBpm xsi:type="HeartRateInBeatsPerMinute_t">
			  <Value>131</Value>
			</HeartRateBpm>
			<SensorState>Absent</SensorState>
</Trackpoint>
<Trackpoint>
			<Time>2010-06-10T07:09:36Z</Time>
			<Position>
			  <LatitudeDegrees>-47.8801460</LatitudeDegrees>
			  <LongitudeDegrees>95.1345543</LongitudeDegrees>

ED: Note the 310's don't actually store the data in TCX file format as shown above, the Ant Agent will convert from the FIT format to TCX as part of the transfer process.

The older Garmins would automatically start overwriting the old history files when the limit was reached, although the summary (& lap) data was still kept so it looked liked you still had the data on your watch, until you downloaded it to find trackpoint data was missing as Spud suggests, and he should know with his many 24+ hr events.

The 310xt will give you a warning as memory fills, but if it happens mid run you may not notice it.


As I mentioned earlier, I am currently running a little experiment at HTA with a 310xt on full charge, GPS disabled, and footpod active on a movement simulator, running a bit over 5min pace. Looking at previous foot pod collected data, the sample rate seems to be a pretty constant 6sec interval, so that should equate to about 30hrs of samples if the published figure by Garmin above is correct. I intend on running the test for 40hrs and seeing what data is recorded.

Another thing to remember is that some applications for observing run data also limit the maximum file size.

Stay tuned.

#13 Running fan

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:05 PM

Wow! Isn't the Coolrunning community wonderful! I am astounded by the generous and extremely informative responses provided by all! Thank you for taking the time to help out. Rob you run a brilliant service. I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin head office try to head-hunt Chilliman -- he is the font of all Garmin knowledge! Can't wait to read the results of the in-store test. Thank you once again Chilliman, I look forward to hearing about your race!
Best,
Peter.

#14 RobGrinter

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:19 PM

View PostRunning fan, on Oct 6 2010, 10:05 PM, said:

Wow! Isn't the Coolrunning community wonderful! I am astounded by the generous and extremely informative responses provided by all! Thank you for taking the time to help out. Rob you run a brilliant service. I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin head office try to head-hunt Chilliman -- he is the font of all Garmin knowledge! Can't wait to read the results of the in-store test. Thank you once again Chilliman, I look forward to hearing about your race!
Best,
Peter.

Thanks Peter, we actually have the test running overnight with a footpod and 310xt spinning on a rig. When we left at 6pm it was up to about 70 km, We estimated that at 8am tomorrow we will have reached an important point of data and battery life. Keep tuned tomorrow as we should be able to add some interesting information and answer some of the key questions being battery life with footpod, data storage etc.

Regards
Rob

#15 chilliman

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:50 AM

Just an update on our little experiment.
TOD: 11:59am, Run Time 23:39hrs, Distance 283.4kms, Ave Pace 04:59, battery gauge still on full from initial charge.

All data from foot pod, GPS off, no HRM either.

Over the next week, will also look at adding the HRM, and also collecting GPS data.


Ed: updated stats at 12:00.

Edited by chilliman, 07 October 2010 - 11:06 AM.


#16 scf

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:56 AM

View PostSpud, on Oct 6 2010, 05:49 PM, said:

Steve I think you'll find the unit will happily store general stats on runs, but the actual GPS plot/trace gets overwritten as memory fills up.
So older runs lose their complete data set so to speak.
To check this upload one of your older runs to Sporttracks and see if the trace, elevation data etc are still there?
The manual states that it never automatically deletes or overwrites data. I am yet ot manually delete any and I do not have the ANT agent setup to delete it. I am pretty sure the GPS plot/trace data for all activities is still on my unit. I just viewed my very first activity going back to May 6 and I can still view the map of the run on the device. I can't see how it could show that if the GPS data was not still on it.

I will attempt to verify it. I can't just upload an older run to Sporttracks as that would just reload it from the run data already transfered to my PC. I need to somehow get the Ant Agent to reload an old run from my 310xt but I am not sure how to do that. What I might try is connect the ANT stick to another PC, install the ANT agent and see what it uploads.

#17 RobGrinter

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:05 PM

Running Fan, (Peter)

The test is still running and as at 6pm tonight we hit over 350 km and 30 hours.

Battery is still showing near full and screen is still displaying all data correctly.

Chillman will have some answers for you in the morning when we put an end to the test at about 45 hours.

Whilst in some ways this already answers some of your questions favourably, the question will be what the storage of data in the unit looks like after a download.

Chilli will be able to give final report sometime tomorrow.

Regards
Rob

#18 Spud

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 06:51 AM

View Postscf, on Oct 7 2010, 10:56 AM, said:

The manual states that it never automatically deletes or overwrites data. I am yet ot manually delete any and I do not have the ANT agent setup to delete it. I am pretty sure the GPS plot/trace data for all activities is still on my unit. I just viewed my very first activity going back to May 6 and I can still view the map of the run on the device. I can't see how it could show that if the GPS data was not still on it.

I will attempt to verify it. I can't just upload an older run to Sporttracks as that would just reload it from the run data already transfered to my PC. I need to somehow get the Ant Agent to reload an old run from my 310xt but I am not sure how to do that. What I might try is connect the ANT stick to another PC, install the ANT agent and see what it uploads.

Steve,

Try changing the time of the run during the upload process, this will not overwrite your current Sporttracks run but just add another at a different time that day?

#19 Perseus

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 09:41 AM

View PostRobGrinter, on Oct 7 2010, 10:05 PM, said:

the question will be what the storage of data in the unit looks like after a download.
Chilliman, when you post can you include the raw data with the post. Thanks

#20 chilliman

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 10:47 AM

Stopped our little "exercise" this morning after 45:12 hrs total run time.
Total distance acquired was 585.74kms at 4:37 pace, average cadence of 118spm.
(Note: the recorded cadence is much higher than a 'normal' runner due to the nature of our setup).

Garmin 310xt fully charged, GPS OFF, NO HRM, foot pod only (speed source).

After stopping the test at 45hrs, (I would like to repeat at a later date until the battery is depleted or memory fills), the battery indicator was showing 3 bars, when attached to the charger it indicated 60% charge. Looking at the memory status revealed 16% full.

Downloaded the data, then uploaded to Garmin Connect. The data can be seen / downloaded following the link here.
Attached File  310xtpod2.jpg   144.94K   9 downloads

So what does our little test prove ?

Well to answer Running Fan's original question the 310xt will easily display and record foot pod data for at least 45hrs and beyond, on an initial full charge to the 310xt. Fine if you are not worried about positioning information during or post run.

Next would be to test including HRM data to see if we observe similar results, i'd assume with a slightly reduced memory capacity for the same duration.

Then to run the test with GPS (with external power source) just to see how much data can be stored.

#21 scf

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 11:08 AM

View PostSpud, on Oct 8 2010, 07:21 AM, said:

Steve,

Try changing the time of the run during the upload process, this will not overwrite your current Sporttracks run but just add another at a different time that day?
That doesn't prove the data is on the unit. Sporttracks doesn't connect directly to a 310xt, rather it loads gets it's data from the data uploaded via the ANT agent.

I have found a way to prove it though. I removed my device from the ANT agent and verified all the device files had been deleted. The entire device directory was removed including all the workout files. I then paired my 310xt up with the ANT agent again and waited 20+ minutes while it reloaded all the history stored on my unit. I then viewed all my device files and was able to see all workout files had been uploaded again. I could see the .TCX files for all my workouts (going back to 6/5/10) and they definitely contain GPS trackpoint data like Chilliman showed earlier. I also did upload the 5/6 workout into Sporttracks, changing the date and it definitely has the GPS track.

There is no doubt that my 310xt has 52 hours of GPS trackpoint data on it and memory is only 55% full.

I can't see that I use my unit in any way that would require it to use less memory - it's not as if you can control the trackpoint frequency. Sure, Garmin will have a low-end estimate in the manual, but it does seem that 20 hours is way too low. Perhaps the manual was rewritten from another unit and no-one updated this information?

Anyway, the point is that it should be able to store 30 hours of Trackpoint data, even with GPS, easily.

#22 Spud

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 12:41 PM

I hope you are correct Steve, I don't own a 310xt yet, still using a 305 that definitely wipes oldest trackpoint data as the memory fills and well before 20hrs.
Chilli to conduct another experiment me thinks. ;)

Out of interest, how big are your workouts typically Steve?

#23 Brick

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 12:49 PM

View PostSpud, on Oct 8 2010, 01:41 PM, said:

I hope you are correct Steve, I don't own a 310xt yet, still using a 305 that definitely wipes oldest trackpoint data as the memory fills and well before 20hrs.
Chilli to conduct another experiment me thinks. ;)

Out of interest, how big are your workouts typically Steve?
I am the same a spud and use a 305.
What it actually does is compresses the data for the older runs and in doing so removes the trackpoint data.

I found this out to peril a while back.

#24 scf

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 01:18 PM

View PostSpud, on Oct 8 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

I hope you are correct Steve, I don't own a 310xt yet, still using a 305 that definitely wipes oldest trackpoint data as the memory fills and well before 20hrs.
Chilli to conduct another experiment me thinks. ;)

Out of interest, how big are your workouts typically Steve?
I'm quite certain the 310xt doesn't wipe data - I've seen a number of complaints of memory filling during a workout and the manual specifically states it does not (not that we can't trust the manual 100%). I guess it might compress it as memory fills, but so far it hasn't for me.

I'm by no means an ultra runner - I got involved with this thread more for the 310xt comments and knowing I had much more that 20 hours of data on my unit. My workouts are generally between 30-70 minutes. It is possible there is an issue storing with a very long workout, but I've read a lot of comments about the 310xt and have not seen anything to suggest there is. Chilli's 45 hour test didn't seem to have a problem.

Chilli said he'd run a few more tests and it will be interesting to see the results. I'm confident they will back my observations.

Steve

#25 Running fan

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 09:48 PM

Chilliman and Rob, thank you both for definitively answering my question! Should have more than enough battery power to get me through the race next weekend. Thank you for going to the trouble -- it is very much appreciated. Here's hoping I can justify your efforts with a decent performance in GOW 100's.
Another vote of confidence in Highly Tuned Athletes -- unparalleled for service and tech support.
Cheers,
Peter.

#26 chilliman

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 11:30 AM

View PostRunning fan, on Oct 8 2010, 09:48 PM, said:

Chilliman and Rob, thank you both for definitively answering my question! Should have more than enough battery power to get me through the race next weekend. Thank you for going to the trouble -- it is very much appreciated.

No problems Running Fan, it is something that has frustrated me for a while, knowing the exact storage capacity of the devices under different conditions. We have another issue that Ponder S was involved in where there seems to be a limit on the number of trackpoints in a "course" that can be uploaded to a 310. The same file can upload to a 405, but the 310 as you maybe aware has a separate memory allocation space for courses. The most annoying part of all this is that Garmin have not made this precise information available, and it is up to the public to push the boundaries themselves.

I'm currently running a clean 310xt on GPS with HRM and monitoring the memory capacity as it fills. It won't be conclusive, but want to know as scf suggests that the 310 manual is being very conservative in the 20hr figure published. Will run it for 45hrs again, topping up the charge as required.

scf, the simplest way to download all data from a device is to create a new account on your Mac or PC, login setup GTC, re-pair and all run history still on the device will download.

#27 Kaos

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 02:23 PM

View Postchilliman, on 09 October 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

I'm currently running a clean 310xt on GPS with HRM and monitoring the memory capacity as it fills. It won't be conclusive, but want to know as scf suggests that the 310 manual is being very conservative in the 20hr figure published. Will run it for 45hrs again, topping up the charge as required.

I'd be very interested to hear how this test went. I'm assuming that with an external battery now available, this device can keep recording data for quite a while?

Cheers

Adam

#28 JimHoodHK

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:23 PM

View Postchilliman, on 09 October 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

No problems Running Fan, it is something that has frustrated me for a while, knowing the exact storage capacity of the devices under different conditions. We have another issue that Ponder S was involved in where there seems to be a limit on the number of trackpoints in a "course" that can be uploaded to a 310. The same file can upload to a 405, but the 310 as you maybe aware has a separate memory allocation space for courses. The most annoying part of all this is that Garmin have not made this precise information available, and it is up to the public to push the boundaries themselves.

I'm currently running a clean 310xt on GPS with HRM and monitoring the memory capacity as it fills. It won't be conclusive, but want to know as scf suggests that the 310 manual is being very conservative in the 20hr figure published. Will run it for 45hrs again, topping up the charge as required.

scf, the simplest way to download all data from a device is to create a new account on your Mac or PC, login setup GTC, re-pair and all run history still on the device will download.

Hi - did you get around to running the 310xt + HRM + GPS I'm very interested in the results as I also plan a 100+KM