279 replies to this topic

[cazz]

I know there are a number of vegetarians on this forum.
For various reasons I have been toying with the idea of becoming vegetarian.
I will continue to eat dairy.
However I really dislike beans- baked beans, broad beans....
Am not a huge fan of Tofu (unless it is prepared well) either.
Obviously protein is very important for muscle repair etc.
What other foods can provide protein and roughly what type of quantities would be required? (I am 65kg female)
Thanks

[Rudolf]

look at the

www.vnv.org.au

[Davo]

cazz, there's more protein in broccoli per calorie than there is in steak!

Vegie-girl and Tim, get in here and show this girl the ropes!!  

[Jogger]

It's ok vegetarians don't just survive on beans and/or lentils and/or tofu.

I believe that an over-emphasis on protein for athletes is a bit of a beat-up - let's face it, if you eat a varied diet you should be able to easily gain adequate nutrition - carbs, fat and protein. Not eating meat is not a big deal. really. Peanut butter and Bread sandwiches are a good start.

Not proteins are created equal
"The average man in the US eats 175% more protein than the recommended daily allowance and the average woman eats 144% more."   {Surgeon General's Report on Nutrition and Health,1988}

Protein Information Sheet
Brown rice, Broccoli, Potatoes, Porridge

Protein in the Vegan Diet
Some Americans are obsessed with protein. Vegans are bombarded with questions about where they get their protein. Athletes used to eat thick steaks before competition because they thought it would improve their performance. Protein supplements are sold at health food stores. This concern about protein is misplaced. Although protein is certainly an essential nutrient which plays many key roles in the way our bodies function, we do not need huge quantities of it. In reality, we need small amounts of protein. Only one calorie out of every ten we take in needs to come from protein. Athletes do not need much more protein than the general public 2. Protein supplements are expensive, unnecessary, and even harmful for some people.

More here

[Beki]

Cazz

There  are heaps of really great tasting vegetarian soy products that are loaded with protein - even vegetarian "bacon".  A lot of the pre-marinaded tofu nuggets are awesome (try the sweet chilli ones in a salad or stir fry)

It is actually quite unusual for vego's to be lacking protein in their diet

Will you still be eating eggs or fish?  Two more great sources of protein.

Throw a handful of lentils into veggie curries.  Include nuts as a snack, eat seeded breads, and don't forget that  dairy also has a fair bit of protein in it too

The trick is to eat a wide variety of foods, that way there is less chance of you missing out on important nutrients

Good luck!

[Tiger Boy]

"vegetarian bacon"? Beki wash your mouth out.
The only way to eat bacon is dead pig, with unhatched fowl.
Sorry to all you vegetarians out there - but vegetarian bacon - sacrilige  

[tim]

I wanted something from the health food shop the other day to make some vegan cheese for a pizza.  I do not go in there very often.  I noticed half the shop was filled with protein powders and whilst I was in there a couple walked who were both a touch over weight.  They told the assistance that they had just started walking every morning and was there anything they should take to help them with their new fitness regime.  The assistant without a moments thought told them that with all that extra exercise they will need extra protein and ended selling them this large tub of whey protein with a picture of a bulging bicep on it.  I wonder if they really needed that extra protein or did the health food shop just need that sale?

In reality they are not a health food shop at all.  The real health food shop is the fruit and veg shop.  If you buy most of your food at the fruit and veg shop you will not need to worry about nutrition at all.  It is that simple.

We seem to have this idea that running and exercising is something that is not normal.  But the reality is that we were designed to walk / run every day.  Covering distances by foot is our normal and sitting on our bums all day is not. So as a runner we should not need supplements and added things to make us healthy just plenty of whole food and water.  Everything else should be considered a treat.

From my experience you do not need meat, chicken, fish, eggs or dairy to be healthy.  You do not need to obsess about your diet just eat heaps of fresh fruit, lots of green leafy veggies, plenty of other veggies and some whole grains, nuts and beans if you like them.

The biggest challenge is changing the way you cook so do a google search on recipes.

I can highly recommend Eat 2 Live by a Dr Fuhrman.

Plus if you like to really get down to the basics there are a lot of healthy active people here

Oh and if you eat fish you can’t call yourself a vegetarian.

[Davo]

Tim, that's one of the best posts I have ever seen on any subject on this site!
Onyer mate!!

[Running Gal]

Other good resource sites for recipes ideas:

http://vegweb.com/in...?action=recipes
http://allrecipes.co...arian/main.aspx

Edited by Running Gal, 31 October 2006 - 05:59 PM.

[Rudolf]

yes Davo, Tim is absolutely correct here.

I had experience this sunday at the world vego day. Quite dissapointing. My feeling is, that the organization, lots of groups and individuals are vegetarians and vegans for other reason than their health.

Take the various soy products - thats right PRODUCTS, not food, it was manufactured, and is is no different to Pamella Anderson silicon breast implant ( on the second thought it is different ).

I was fascinated with the idea of vegan cheese concept - not that the exhibits looked really Yakky, trhey really looked disgasting, reading the label what a good joke : margarines, vegetable oil solids etc.

Healthwise the msot dangerous food You can have is vegetable oils, hydrogenated oils, margarines etc.

If people do not want to eat cows butter, than they should be ready to get away all trhis food group and to
manufacture plastic imitations.

I agree with Tiger Boy here, re silicon bacon, or vegan bacon or whatever.

I second Tims view, that health food shops usually have nothing to do with health, they sell whatever bodybuilding mags edvertise.

Healthy vegetarian, vegan or other type of nutrition would never have any problems with the issue of protein deficiency.

There might be some other issue, which needs to be looked at, but ceratinly not the protein, unless the person becomes soy product junkie and overloads with protein, or overloads with protein through dairy.

[tim]

I agree with you Rudolf, soy products such as bacon and burgers should be eaten sparingly since they have nothing to do with health.

But I am one of those people who comes to veganism from an ethical stand and this being a running board I keep my views to health.  So for me the occasional soy burger (or as I like to call them omni sub) is fun for a bit of variety.  


I do like Fry’s burgers and sausages which you will find in the frozen section at the supermarket.

When I went vegetarian 25 or so years ago there were not such things as a soy burger or “not” bacon in the supermarket.  So it is nice to see such alternatives there.

[plu]

Hi all,

Quote

The real health food shop is the fruit and veg shop. If you buy most of your food at the fruit and veg shop you will not need to worry about nutrition at all.

Is not there some evidence that the nutritional value of "fresh" fruit and veges has declined over the years due to artificial and delayed ripening?  That would have an impact on the nuritional value of the fresh fruit and veges and hence the calls for supplements.  Or is it a con?

cheers  Plu

[THE KEG]

I didn't make my way to the top of the food chain just to eat vegetables..

[Rudolf]

plu, on Oct 31 2006, 06:27 PM, said:

Hi all,

Quote

The real health food shop is the fruit and veg shop. If you buy most of your food at the fruit and veg shop you will not need to worry about nutrition at all.

Is not there some evidence that the nutritional value of "fresh" fruit and veges has declined over the years due to artificial and delayed ripening?  That would have an impact on the nuritional value of the fresh fruit and veges and hence the calls for supplements.  Or is it a con?

cheers  Plu

Yes Plu, I agree with You on this, another reason being the soil depletion.

That is why I do use supplements and are always searching for informations.

However there is the same issue here - the real suplements and the syntheticaly manufactured ones.
There would allways be some scientist telling You that synthetic vitamin is exactly same chemical as the one made by nature....

The issue I thing is most critical is mineral soil depletion, and the lack of various microminerals - those with very little content so often not listed in the analysis etc.

Mibneral suplement providing only 1-10 mibnerals are uselles or damaging as they caused mineral disbalance.

You have to look for suplemets providing 40-60-80 minerals, this would fix lots of issues, like Iron, copper
chromium etc...

Celtic Ocean Salt, or Himalayan Salt instead of kitchen salt, I also use it in camelback instead of salt capsules, the other suplemet is Black Crude Molasses - the reason is, that sugar cane plant has much deeper roots comparing to other plants, so is able to extract the minerals from deep part of soil.

In the production of Molasses trhe garbage is taken out (and sold under the name of sugar) and only the
real goodness is left.


And to the original question - there is a difference between organic vegiies and nonorganic veggies,
and the own grown veggies.

[Rudolf]

THE KEG, on Oct 31 2006, 06:38 PM, said:

I didn't make my way to the top of the food chain just to eat vegetables..

are You a canibal ?

[Davo]

Rudolf, on Oct 31 2006, 08:09 AM, said:

....... and is is no different to Pamella Anderson silicon breast implant ( on the second thought it is different ).

Rudolf, you made me titter then !!  

[Derwood]

THE KEG, on Oct 31 2006, 06:08 PM, said:

I didn't make my way to the top of the food chain just to eat vegetables..

Hate to disappoint you there, Keg, but try taking a swim down here in SA....you haven't quite made it to the top yet, mate...

[Rudolf]

tim, on Oct 31 2006, 06:25 PM, said:

But I am one of those people who comes to veganism from an ethical stand and this being a running board I keep my views to health.  So for me the occasional soy burger (or as I like to call them omni sub) is fun for a bit of variety.  

When I went vegetarian 25 or so years ago there were not such things as a soy burger or “not” bacon in the supermarket.  So it is nice to see such alternatives there.

Tim I understand that, I was vegetarian for about 8 years 2-3 decades ago back in europe, and the soymeat was a big hit, and we were cooking it thousands ways...

The reason I am stressing the issue is, that for the begginers, the soy propaganda can be very confusing, and their mind is too much concentrating on the topic of MEAT REPLACEMENT, which in itself is wrong concept

The other issue with soy is, that there are studies linking soy to lots of health troubles, since the soy has something similar to womens hormones. For man it can mean decrese testosterone, decrese libidom decresed muscle strenght,.. and also growth of tits.
For women it is disrupting the natural monthly hormonal cycle, and is linked to breast cancer, and for small girls it is linked to premature puberty and children growing tits in the age 4+, the children issue is ofcourse the result of soy milk and soy based baby formulas.

Soy fat is the worst fat possible, and there some soy margarine spreads in health food stores and health scetion of supermatrkets.

And of course, these days it is not soy anymore it is Monsanto soy...

[THE KEG]

Hate to disappoint you there, Keg, but try taking a swim down here in SA....you haven't quite made it to the top yet, mate...
[/quote]
True- but they aren't into vegies either .......

[PlodBod]

Beki, on Oct 31 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

even vegetarian "bacon".

There was a product on sale in the UK a while ago.  It was called "Fakon".  

[Action]

Tiger Boy, on Oct 31 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

Sorry to all you vegetarians out there - but vegetarian bacon - sacrilige  

not to the pig....

Fish eater?  Piscetarian

(disclosure: 25 year vegetarian)

[rohan]

tim, on Oct 31 2006, 07:38 AM, said:

Oh and if you eat fish you can’t call yourself a vegetarian.

amen brother!

in the usa in particular, a lot of white women in their 50s will refer to themselves as vegetarians, but of course they do eat fish.... and birds... and pigs...
in fact the only animal they don't eat is cows...
what is the term for omnivores that discriminate against a particular animal?

about 10 years ago on a usa domestic flight i got the vegetarian meal and received more meat than my wife... bacon bits in the salad and chicken strips adorning some rice dish...

and i've got to agree with rudolf on fake meat. it is worse than real meat. a lot of us no longer like the concept of biting into dead flesh... why would we try to replicate the experience?

[Grandpa]

Quote

are You a canibal ?

Rudolph,

Cannibals don't just eat meat, they eat their own species.

[thomo]

Action, on Oct 31 2006, 08:13 PM, said:

Tiger Boy, on Oct 31 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

Sorry to all you vegetarians out there - but vegetarian bacon - sacrilige  

not to the pig....

Fish eater?  Piscetarian

(disclosure: 25 year vegetarian)

Action you are not 25

[Rudolf]

Grandpa, on Oct 31 2006, 07:22 PM, said:

Quote

are You a canibal ?

Rudolph,

Cannibals don't just eat meat, they eat their own species.

ofcourse they do, thats the point. I was not refering to meat eating, I was questioning the top of the food chain statement - since the animal eater can still be eaten by canibal, the there chain goes higher and he is not on top.

To complicate the argumenet even more - there is a nice song recently : I eat canibals.

Crocs argument is not that clear as humans eat crocs too, so the competitions is still on,
I remeber I had a croc saussage in the aboriginal center in Halls Gap (Grampians) many years ago.

[laotze]

I think hornets might be the answer.  They don't taste like beans at all.

[Jogger]

my daughter went on a school trip to dubbo and asked for vegetarian food in advance - they gave her a chicken sandwich! She returned home very hungry.

[thomo]

Rudolf, on Oct 31 2006, 08:31 PM, said:

To complicate the argumenet even more - there is a nice song recently : I eat canibals.

I Eat Cannibals Lyrics

I eat cannibal, feed on animal
Your love is so edible to me, I eat cannibals
I eat cannibal, it's incredible
You bring out the animal in me, I eat cannibals

What can you do, you're in a stew
Hot pot, cook it up, I'm never gonna stop

Fancy a bite, my appitite, Yum, yum, gee it's fun
Banging on a different drum

I Eat Cannibal, feed on animal
Your love is so edible to me, I eat cannibals
I eat cannibal, it's incredible
You bring out the animal in me, I eat cannibals

I like spice, tasty and nice
Looks trim, vitamin, forget the dieting
Mmm such a dish, I can't resist
Healthy recipe, what you got it's good for me

All I wanna do, is make a meal of you
We are what we eat, you're my kind of meat
Got a hunger for your love, it's what I'm speaking of
Give a dog a bone, I can take it home

Sung in unison with last two lines of previous verse:
Hot pot, cook it up, I'm never gonna stop
Yum, yum, gee it's fun, I'm banging on a drum
Looks trim, vitamin, forget the dieting
I eat cannibaaaallls

I eat cannibal, feed on animal
Your love is so edible to me, I eat cannibals
I eat cannibal, it's incredible
You bring out the animal in me, I eat cannibals (fade)

P.S Yes, I see the irony in my signature

Edited by thomo, 31 October 2006 - 08:07 PM.

[KevinCassidy]

KevinTiller, on Oct 31 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

my daughter went on a school trip to dubbo and asked for vegetarian food in advance - they gave her a chicken sandwich! She returned home very hungry.

Meeting a new girlfriends mum for the first time [29 years ago], she had cooked a large roast.  "I know you're a vegetarian so I've just put a little bit of meat on your plate so I can say that you've had some"!!!

Along with new girlfriends father, I was scratching my head with the logic.

Mind you, this was back in the 70's and new girlfriends dad was sure that I was some sort of religious nutter

[tim]

Rudolf there is nothing wrong with products like tofu and tempeh.  Phytoestrogens are found in many plants and are much weaker then those of humans.  There have many studies showing the benefits of soy products in the diet.

I was originally talking about the processed meat substitutes that are full of fat and salt.

Plu don’t you think that even if there are less nutrients in plants the abundance of fresh fruit and veggies would compensate for that.  I can't imagine another time in human history where we have had a better supply of fresh food.

[plu]

Quote

Plu don’t you think that even if there are less nutrients in plants the abundance of fresh fruit and veggies would compensate for that. I can't imagine another time in human history where we have had a better supply of fresh food.

Tim that makes sense but I guess you might not be able to eat enough.

This reminds me of a story.  When Nick was young he was not putting on weight and he would not eat any meat at all.  Full credit to you guys who can create the diversity from vegetarian diets - we were at a loss what too do.  It was influencing his health and we were getting phone calls from Long Dave Care to pick him up as he was always run down and underweight.

The Doctor said he would not normally recommend this but he said just get food into him.  He suggested Mc Donalds - just fill him up.  

We did this for a little while but he is now nagging me for all the rubbish I eat and he eats very healthily.

cheers  Plu

[cazz]

Wow, what an overwhelming response!  
Thanks for all the great links. Lots of informative reading,

I agree that vegetarians don't eat fish.
I also feel a bit weird about eating 'fake' meat.
I may look at eventually cutting out dairy- but one step at a time. Although eggs should probably the first thing to go given all the welfare issues associated with many aspects of poultry/egg production....

The information about protein is very interesting. One of the main arguements opposing vegetarian diets is it's poor source of protein and Iron.

[yeti]

Beki, on Oct 30 2006, 03:48 PM, said:

There  are heaps of really great tasting vegetarian soy products that are loaded with protein - even vegetarian "bacon".  A lot of the pre-marinaded tofu nuggets are awesome (try the sweet chilli ones in a salad or stir fry)

Well, I (non-veg) once had an accidental encounter with one of those "replacement" products. I accicentally  bought a soy-based substance  that pretended to be yogurt because I didn't look closely enough at the label. Result: one taste, one spew - game over.

Yeti

[Spud]

Soy=the food of the Gods, swear by it. I'll eat anything soy, you must try sanitarium soy ice cream, man it tastes good.I do have problems with soy products that are purposely flavoured to taste like meat or poultry eg. soy "chicken" nuggets and sausages etc. I suppose it's good to have the choice there and if it helps more people becoming vego I'm for it.
Protein levels should not be an issue for any vegetarian eating a wide variety of vegetables and grains.
Iron levels, particularly with the ladies can be a hassle and supplements may be required.

Cazz if you do decide to go vego, I'm sure you'll delight at the variety of fresh foods available out there.
Whatever you do, don't just drop the meat portion off the plate, experiment with a variety of vegetarian dishes, (the Moosewood Cookbook comes to mind),
'tis the spice of life.

(Spud-16yrs lacto-ovo vegetarian)  

[Sparkie]

Firstly, this question is aimed at vegetarians who do so for health reasons.  Ethical vegetarians have different motivations, which don't apply to my question.

Is vegetarianism for health reasons necessary?  Rather than exclude meat, surely equivalent health benefits could be made be just REDUCING the amount of meat in your diet, and focusing on low fat cuts.  It seems that extreme measures are being undertaken which aren't needed to achieve the desired results.

My main issue is that you occasionally get lectures from vegetarians about how bad your diet is for you.  Yet from a sample of one, as a meat eater I would back my health against the most hard core vegetarian.  I never get sick (OK, maybe once a year flu will knock me around for 24-48 hours), have plenty of energy, and am generally in a good mood all the time.  Yes, I eat a lot of fruit and pasta, which puts my diet at odds with many non-vegetarians, but I also have my fair share of junk.

It seems to me that if the goal of those promoting vegetarianism for health benefits is to improve people's diets, then a less extreme message that is more attainable (less meat, more veges) would make more sense.

[tim]

I think firstly we need to look at the health of a society rather than the individual.  

There have been quite a few studies that support the theory that the less meat and dairy a society eats the less likely that society is of getting things like cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, heart disease etc.  So if you were to eat a very small amount of animal products you could be quite healthy.  The book I recommended (Eat 2 Live) is not by a vegetarian and does allow a small amount of animal products if one desires.  But the book also argues that if less animal product is good then totally removing them all together is better.  This is also the finding in The China Study.

Your statement that a vegetarian diet is extreme is only your opinion because of your up bringing and cultural conditioning.  My son is 5 he has never eaten meat and a vegetarian diet is just the normal way of eating for him.

[Rudolf]

Sparkie, on Nov 1 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

Firstly, this question is aimed at vegetarians who do so for health reasons.  Ethical vegetarians have different motivations, which don't apply to my question.

Is vegetarianism for health reasons necessary?  Rather than exclude meat, surely equivalent health benefits could be made be just REDUCING the amount of meat in your diet, and focusing on low fat cuts.  It seems that extreme measures are being undertaken which aren't needed to achieve the desired results.

My main issue is that you occasionally get lectures from vegetarians about how bad your diet is for you.  Yet from a sample of one, as a meat eater I would back my health against the most hard core vegetarian.  I never get sick (OK, maybe once a year flu will knock me around for 24-48 hours), have plenty of energy, and am generally in a good mood all the time.  Yes, I eat a lot of fruit and pasta, which puts my diet at odds with many non-vegetarians, but I also have my fair share of junk.

It seems to me that if the goal of those promoting vegetarianism for health benefits is to improve people's diets, then a less extreme message that is more attainable (less meat, more veges) would make more sense.

Sparkie, since You asked, this is my opinion :

with the search for the ultimate health, tghere is a lot what needs to be changed in our nutrition.
However the issue of meat is NOT the most important one. And I agree with You, there is lots of sick and unhealthy vegetarians around. However they are not sick because of not eating meat they are sick because of eating various unhealthy products, manufactured products, they eat vegetable oils, margarines , hydrogenated fat.

I have in my mind various stages - steps for improving the nutrition health wise, and the isue of margarines, hydrogenated fats, trans fats, vegetable oils etc is the most important .

Second issue is the importance of saturated fats, they are needed and healthy despite the medical propaganda. Meat eaters are guaranteed the good amount of saturated fats, so do not have to intentionaly pay attention to it. There are saturated plant based fats ( avocados, coconut), however they are not daily food, and they require intention in taking enough of it daily.

So eat meaters have an advantage from the fats point of view, that the situation, culture propaganda etc.
Eat meater is more likely to eat real 100% cow butter - very good source of saturated fats.
Vegetarians, vegans and confused health seekers are more likely use maragrine, vegetable oil based spreads, confused by propaganda and labels telling Omega 3 on canola oil spread etc.

For general population huge health improvement can be achieved by strict eliminating of hydro and trans fats, margarines, vegetable oils etc, and eating pure cows butter, and yes even the fat cuts of the meat.

However there is a difference between meat and meat products. Saussage, sallami pates, tined meat,
fabricated hamburgers, dim sims, meat pies etc, that is NO MEAT.

Even if You buy meat in a raw unprocessed state from supermarket, it is still full of chemicals and preservatives, to keep it fresh longer and give it the RED COLOUR.

So You better find the organic butcher.

Lots of people eat meat not because they like meat, but they like all the chemicals in meat products, and are dependant on them.

If the only meat You eat, is the raw meat cooked in the water, than You would not be enthusiastic meat eater

Asd for unhealthy vegetarians - lots of them live on cakes and bakery products, which is basicaly margarines etc, using vegetable oil based spreads, eating quick snacks - sport bars, health bars etc,
they are also frying vegiies, flour-soy mixtures and are frying it on the vegetable oils.
So of course they could not be healthy.


However if on the way seeking the health, You go further, than You would have to quit all dairy
and later quit all the meat even it is organic, next step would be flour products etc.

There is lots of steps after that, but it well beyond this topic.

[Ultraphil]

Add sauce to the beans!  It might change the taste!


Phil

[Rudolf]

Ultraphil, on Nov 1 2006, 11:59 AM, said:

Add sauce to the beans!  It might change the taste!


Phil

Phil You can add all the beans You want to the sauce, the taste of sauce would not change.

I am not using any sauce, so I do not have to complain about the taste

[THE KEG]

A good meat sauce would improve the beans.

[Davo]

Seriously, tomato sauce is one of the best things you can put on your food.
Someone told me it's better for you than raw tomatoes: I guess that's debatable...?

[thomo]

THE KEG, on Nov 1 2006, 03:52 PM, said:

A good meat sauce would improve the beans.

Keg.

I don't think your comments meat with people's approval

[Rudolf]

Davo, on Nov 1 2006, 03:07 PM, said:

Seriously, tomato sauce is one of the best things you can put on your food.
Someone told me it's better for you than raw tomatoes: I guess that's debatable...?

that is from Oprah show. One of her favorite doc guest, has writen the book about ageing, the real biological age test etc, and about nutrition, and is talking often on Oprah.

He is big tomato sauce pusher.

tomato sauce has lot of connection - the failed democrat candidate - Kohn (Kerry) married into tomato sauce
he is the one sitting in the Lance Armstrong support car during TdF ITT.

[Sparkie]

Quote

Your statement that a vegetarian diet is extreme is only your opinion

Probably...

Culturally, I would consider Halal and Kosher to also be extreme, yet in their respective cultures, they are quite normal.  To me, a diet that forgoes many of the foods commonly available is extreme (which is very different to bad or wrong).  Vegetarian diets are only the norm in societies where meat is scarce or very expensive (some religious communties excepted).

Balancing health is taste - eating good tasting food is one of life's pleasures, and nothing beats meat in that regard (which is definitely my opinion - I know people who couldn't think of anything worse than some foods I adore).  It would take a very strong argument to convince me to forgo lamb's brains a few times a year.  Yummy!

[azza]

Rudolf, on Nov 1 2006, 03:26 PM, said:

Davo, on Nov 1 2006, 03:07 PM, said:

Seriously, tomato sauce is one of the best things you can put on your food.
Someone told me it's better for you than raw tomatoes: I guess that's debatable...?

that is from Oprah show...He is big tomato sauce pusher.

Clarification - Tomato sauce in the US that Oprah mentioned refers to a different product than here - it's more of a pasta sauce, without any spices. What Aussies call tomoato sauce is always called "ketchup" or "catsup" in the States.

'Tomato sauce pusher' - a lone chef in a dark alley, luring yopung, impressionable vegetarians with meat-filled ravioli dipped in pasta sauce..."go on, the first one is free..."

-Az, the token yank

Edited by azza, 01 November 2006 - 03:49 PM.

[Rudolf]

tim, on Nov 1 2006, 09:11 AM, said:

I think firstly we need to look at the health of a society rather than the individual.  

There have been quite a few studies that support the theory that the less meat and dairy a society eats the less likely that society is of getting things like cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, heart disease etc.  So if you were to eat a very small amount of animal products you could be quite healthy.  The book I recommended (Eat 2 Live) is not by a vegetarian and does allow a small amount of animal products if one desires.  But the book also argues that if less animal product is good then totally removing them all together is better.  This is also the finding in The China Study.

Your statement that a vegetarian diet is extreme is only your opinion because of your up bringing and cultural conditioning.  My son is 5 he has never eaten meat and a vegetarian diet is just the normal way of eating for him.

agreed.

I saw some figures regarding water - as this is current critical issue. To produce 1 (was it kg or pound or something else) unit of lettuce, broccoli etc was in the tens gallons like 20-50 galons of water.
To produce 1 unit of meat, it was something like 2,600 galons of water.
So meat eaters are basically wasting our water resources, as they need 100x more water to satisfy their taste. With the change of the governement comming (god help the greens), perhaps all that water wastage would be fully financially passed on to the meat eaters, through some type of water wastage tax and the money than would be used for water desalination from ocean, so the vegans could drink and dont die from dehydratation.

[Action]

Sparkie, on Nov 1 2006, 03:33 PM, said:

It would take a very strong argument to convince me to forgo lamb's brains a few times a year.  Yummy!

I suspect an argument that involved bringing the very alive lamb around to your place for Sparkie junior to play with just before you "prepare" it for dinner may be a reasonably strong argument....  yes, I know, that is on the ethical side rather than the health issues, but the ethics of the lamb's health do sometimes co-incide!

[Rudolf]

Action, on Nov 1 2006, 04:09 PM, said:

Sparkie, on Nov 1 2006, 03:33 PM, said:

It would take a very strong argument to convince me to forgo lamb's brains a few times a year.  Yummy!

I suspect an argument that involved bringing the very alive lamb around to your place for Sparkie junior to play with just before you "prepare" it for dinner may be a reasonably strong argument....  yes, I know, that is on the ethical side rather than the health issues, but the ethics of the lamb's health do sometimes co-incide!

another one could be a visit, or a short time job at abatoir. To see the animals being killed and how is it done

Next step would be to see how the animal are killed for kosher meat, but thats another issue alltogether

[Stu Mac]

Whilst I still eat meat, I have found over the past 12 months I am eating red meat maybe once a fortnight, chicken once or twice a fn and fish 3-4 times, so this has been a very good read, thanks everyone!

Edited by Stu Mac, 01 November 2006 - 07:29 PM.

[Sparkie]

Quote

another one could be a visit, or a short time job at abatoir. To see the animals being killed and how is it done

Six years at agricultural high school - been there, done that - taken a chicken from running around to steaming in the middle of a table.  Sparkie Jnr will not be spared the truth of where meat comes from...

Is it ethically wrong to not be concerned about killing animals to eat (lions have no such qualms), but to be concerned about the conditions they are raised in? (my wife and I donate to World Society for the Protection of Animals every month - does that make us hypocrites?)