99 replies to this topic

[Virtual]

Nice report Bandanna.  Glad I wasn't there. Congrats to all that finished.  As they say.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.....


Until it kills you.

[laotze]

RMC, on Mar 25 2007, 02:09 PM, said:

Nice report Awiseman. You guys looked like you were doing it easy, didn't realise how difficult you found it. Just goes to show the strengths of different runners, I came good when the sun went down, which gives me a bit more confidence going into Western States.

Looks like we WON the Over 40 age group by just 3 minutes. Category results here. Lucky I passed a few teams in the last hour !

That;s great news about the over 40 class, RMC.  I thought just finishing was a win.   Next year, smarter, cooler, stronger?

[tim]

It sounds like it was a gutsy effort but awiseman reading your report didn't you guys break the rules?  Rule 4 says "All team members must stay together between checkpoints".  

[Pasty]

Quote

but awiseman reading your report didn't you guys break the rules?

definitely broke the spirit of trailwalker...

[laotze]

tim, on Mar 25 2007, 10:40 PM, said:

It sounds like it was a gutsy effort but awiseman reading your report didn't you guys break the rules?  Rule 4 says "All team members must stay together between checkpoints".  

pastyboy, on Mar 26 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

definitely broke the spirit of trailwalker...

I'll take Tim's observation as tongue in cheek, and Pastyboy's....I think the spirit of Trailwalker is to keep your team 'together' to the end - which we did, as we were all there at the end.  Along the way our philosophy was 'each should cover the distance from check point to check point at their own comfortable pace'.

According to my reading of the 'Rules' 'all teams must check-in and check-out together at the checkpoints along the trail'.  Perhaps there is something in Rule 4, clause 33, subsectionAA, dot point third from the top, but I must confess I didn't read the fine print.

I think when the organisers can cut out a section, the rules have to have some flexibility, don't they?

But, if Tim or Pastyboy, or any of the teams that finished behind us wish to protest, please do so, I'd hate to think we were basking in undeserved honour.

In fact, if I'd got a medal, I'd be sending it back straight away.

(Oh, and nice way boys, to take the gloss off what I had thought was a tremendous effort.)

[Pasty]

Hey awiseman,

There's no point chucking your toys of of the cot because I questioned how your team ran the last legs.  That's how you did it, and I wouldn't do it that way.

I don't think you can use the organisers cancellation of CP3-CP4 as justification of how you ran the last leg - that's a bit of a stretch.  It was dissapointing that they 1. Changed the last leg anyway after the cold weather last year and 2. Cancelled CP3-CP4 leg because of the Total Fire Ban.  But that's the way it is.

I think the issue we are treading around here is that TrailWalker is an "event".  A growing number of teams compete it as a race (including me).  Different people get different things out of TrailWalker.  It's just as cool for a team to train and walk it in 40hrs, as it is for you guys to do it as fast as possible and do really well in your AG.

In the end, you should be happy with your result, and happy for the outcomes for Oxfam.

[PiledHigherq]

pastyboy, on Mar 25 2007, 05:59 PM, said:

Hey awiseman,

There's no point chucking your toys of of the cot because I questioned how your team ran the last leg.  That's how you did it, and I wouldn't do it that way.

I don't think you can use the organisers cancellation of CP3-CP4 as justification of how you ran the last leg - that's a bit of a stretch.  It was dissapointing that they 1. Changed the last leg anyway after the cold weather last year and 2. Cancelled CP3-CP4 leg because of the Total Fire Ban.  But that's the way it is.

I think the issue we are treading around here is that TrailWalker is an "event".  A growing number of teams compete it as a race (including me).  Different people get different things out of TrailWalker.  It's just as cool for a team to train and walk it in 40hrs, as it is for you guys to do it as fast as possible and do really well in your AG.

In the end, you should be happy with your result, and happy for the outcomes for Oxfam.

Give me a break, teams split on trailwalker, how far apart is too far? I saw teams with two members 500 metres from the other two members. You have to check in together so there is no incentive to get too far ahead but it is ridiculous to question some ones finish because they ran some climbs at their own pace.

As to my experience, a DNF at checkpoint 7, lost two team members to medical assistance at this point.

[laotze]

pastyboy, on Mar 26 2007, 10:59 AM, said:

Hey awiseman,

There's no point chucking your toys of of the cot because I questioned how your team ran the last leg.  That's how you did it, and I wouldn't do it that way.

I don't think you can use the organisers cancellation of CP3-CP4 as justification of how you ran the last leg - that's a bit of a stretch.  It was dissapointing that they 1. Changed the last leg anyway after the cold weather last year and 2. Cancelled CP3-CP4 leg because of the Total Fire Ban.  But that's the way it is.

I think the issue we are treading around here is that TrailWalker is an "event".  A growing number of teams compete it as a race (including me).  Different people get different things out of TrailWalker.  It's just as cool for a team to train and walk it in 40hrs, as it is for you guys to do it as fast as possible and do really well in your AG.

In the end, you should be happy with your result, and happy for the outcomes for Oxfam.

"Chuck your toys out of the cot..."?

Oh dear! Did I over-react?

How appreciative I am to know that you were only referring to the last leg, and that you wouldn't do it that way.  But, as I slipped and slid in that mud, and as I feel right now, I couldn't give a rat's how you would do it.

Some people stayed in B&Bs - that's fine with me.  I have no doubt there were people doing the Trailwalker who took close to 48 hours and will treasure the experience.  I am not only glad for them, but I would not dream of disparaging their efforts.

I am very sorry however that it may have appeared to you that I was using the cancellation of CP3 -Cp4 as justification for how I ran the last leg.  That was far from my mind both when running, walking, falling down the last leg, and as far from my mind when I posted my response to Tim's (which I mentioned appeared to be tongue in cheek) and your post (which clearly wasn't).

Next time I do Trailwalker, and next time I post about a run I have done, I must remember to be really really serious, and respect the spirit and the rules and the opinions of more exalted CRs than I.

[Pasty]

PiledHigherq, on Mar 26 2007, 12:24 PM, said:

Give me a break, teams split on trailwalker, how far apart is too far?

One hour apart seems a bit far.

[undercover brother]

happened to be in the melbourne area this weekend and i have to say congrats for everyone doing this event in terrible conditions.

not wanting to fuel the fire but.....
personally i've avoided these kinds of events in the past as i hate 'going at someone elses pace'.
but whilst i guess awiseman's team found a way to keep people less conscious about slowing or speeding others up you would think that an hour between teammates is pushing it a little.
richard was obviously having a hard time out there.
would it have helped him for one of his teamates to stay with him and help him thru a bad patch?

ps tim is never tongue in cheek.

Edited by undercover brother, 26 March 2007 - 01:02 PM.

[milov]

Hey All,

Happy to have finished my third trailwalker. Even happier still to have completed my third trailwalker as a complete team.

All three events have been run with people who are virtual strangers, and I really feel that the effort in pulling together four people of varying abilities and strengths is just as important part of the challenge as actually finishing.

One day I would like to find myself in a competitive team aiming to win the event, but I will never take it too seriously. My time in the dark side is by no means long enough to make me an expert, but I feel that often there is a fine line between an exceptional performance and a DNF in ultra events, and the results will be even more uncertain when you have four runners who may or may not shine on the day.

So lets enjoy TW for what it is... a great day with great volunteers raising money for a great cause. And let's hope that next year's route is both heat and snow proof... Can we please ensure that there is an unbroken 100km this time.

That aside, congratulations to the Dashing Divas. You were all in such good spirits when you bowled past us. Happy to see that you maintained the pace to the end. Please guys, put up a post so that we can hear your story.

Thanks to my team members... Kelvin, spending a day with you taught me a lot about endurance. Jun, you spent the whole day hurting, from the very first stage we were outside your comfort zone, yet you kept going to the end. And Ack, good on you for organising the team, and though you went through an obviously excruciatingly bad patch, you pulled yourself together to cross the line.

Thanks too to our support. Steve, Adam and Georgie. Ice creams on the rail trail were inspirational.

And thanks also to all those who have made a donation to team 179!

milov

[laotze]

undercover brother, on Mar 26 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

happened to be in the melbourne area this weekend and i have to say congrats for everyone doing this event in terrible conditions.

not wanting to fuel the fire but.....
personally i've avoided these kinds of events in the past as i hate 'going at someone elses pace'.
but whilst i guess awiseman's team found a way to keep people less conscious about slowing or speeding others up you would think that an hour between teammates is pushing it a little.
richard was obviously having a hard time out there.
would it have helped him for one of his teamates to stay with him?

ps tim is never tongue in cheek.

There was discussion between all team members about how we would proceed.  Richard expressed his view, and what happened is a matter for us within the team, I reckon.  Certainly if Richard wanted to discuss the matter with us further I would listen very attentively.

But anyone else - go as public as you like.

Whether Tim was tongue in cheek or not, is a matter for Tim.

I'm moving on.

Edited by awiseman, 26 March 2007 - 01:06 PM.

[ssorc]

Some random impressions from Friday's run:

* That was one hot run!! The rain caught us at the Milwarra checkpoint, just before heading up Mt Little Joe, and it was very, very welcome! Our team coped pretty well with the heat for most of the day, but I was feeling quite muddled when I got to Woori Yallock and was glad to stop for a bite to eat (creamed rice never tasted so good!) and lots more fluids. I thought I was rigourous with drinking during the day but still managed to lose 3kg.

* It was a pity that stage 4 was closed, but better that than having the event cancelled or postponed (to the last weekend of the school holidays when lots of people are away). Having been caught out with the closure of the last stage in 2006, it would be nice to run the full 100km some day!

* The volunteers were amazing. Fresh, friendly, very encouraging; just what was needed on a hot day! The checkpoint staff were excellent, and there were plentiful amounts of sports drink, Gu, fruit, etc. I can't thank the volunteers enough for their efforts: without them, the event wouldn't happen.

* We came across quite a few separated teams. Doesn't worry me much except when it's remote (like the single runner who passed us on the Mt Little Joe stage at night) or when the runner is clearly struggling (and has been left for dead by his team somewhere in the forest out between Olinda and Silvan); there are times when it's safer or more humane/caring to play it as a team sport. On other stages, such as the rail trail stages where it's open, flat and good road access in case of problems, I think the separation is not so much of a big deal.

* There are some damn good runners out there! Our team had really varied (read "slack") training over the last few months, with work commitments  and the rest of life interfering so we knew we would never be top 10, and it was impressive to see just how fit some of the competitors were, especially given the very hot conditions.

* It was also interesting to see the very different approaches that people took: both on the trail and at checkpoints. The minimalist "eat on the run and don't stop" approach, through to the "tortoise and the hare" efforts with camper-vans, massages, hot food, etc. We stopped for lunch and dinner (30 minutes a piece) and I still don't know if that helped or hurt us in the end. I do know that the icypoles that our support crew produced at Silvan Reservoir were the coldest and nicest treats ever!

* It was sad to see so many Gu and Powerbar wrappers along the trail, with only 20-odd teams in front of us. You carried it in, carry it out! People's rubbish spoils the views, can harm the wildlife if ingested and I am sure it also damages the relationship between Oxfam and Parks Victoria. There's a reason God invented the mini-sized ziplock bag.

* I was very glad to be running the course. I have a lot of respect for the people who walked through the heat of Friday and the rain of Saturday; that was a gutsy effort.

* To the runners nicking glow-sticks on the way up Mt Little Joe: well done. I'm sure that the hundreds of walkers & runners coming up after you in the dark and wet on Friday night really appreciated it.

* We finished in 14hrs41 to a great reception at the finish line; it was a great end to a long hot day. We think we'll place 13th out of the teams that finished with a full set of 4, and we were (very) happy with that.

Well done to everyone who entered and roll on TW 2008!

- Graeme

[milov]

Oh yeah!!!

for all of those runners who accidentally left the course with a few extra packs of gu still in their camel backs.... a closer inspection this morning revealed that they had expired last year!

makes me glad that I only ate two during the event  

milov

[chilliman]

Have now uploaded a few photo's from friday's entertainment here.

[pbig]

Black Hole, on Mar 23 2007, 08:45 AM, said:

Teams will be able to spend as much time as they like getting car lifted from CP3 to CP4 with the clocks stopped whilst in transit.
I reckon you should go home have a nice bath/massage come back when the cool change hits !

Geez Black Hole, I wish you had suggested that at the time !!

Although it was disappointing that this leg was removed, it was understandable, and probably a better option than postponing the event. Also, I hate to think what the attrition rate would have been if this section was included on such a day.

I pulled out with fatigue/dehydration/cramps at Checkpoint 6 - could not continue on the open Warby trail in the worst heat of the day and dry northerly wind with no change in sight. After a sausage roll, iced coffee, a nice cold beer and a few hours rest, I recovered enough to join the remaining 2 team members for the last leg. Just as we got to the top of the last hill I had to turn the headlamp on, then a few minutes later, halfway down the big slope towards the finish, the rain came down... big drops, and cold! There was a steep section right at the bottom that was very slippery when we went through, and must have been quite treacherous later.

Cursing the weather (especially given the nice cool conditions since), and keen to tackle it again with the thought that surely it could not be that bad again??

Congrats to all finishers, and all teams who finished intact. Amazing effort by the Dashing Divas, I read that at least one of the team practices some sort of "extreme heat yoga" which would have been handy!

Re the distance of Stage 1, we also measured it by Garmin to be at least 12kms in training.

Thanks for your support and encouragement along the way chilliman!

[RB]

Chilliman

Good one, I'm glad you were there to take some photos, only thought about it on the way home that we had not taken any.First and probably last TW, so now I have team photo. Thanks alot.

[rohan]

RB, on Mar 26 2007, 05:14 AM, said:

.First and probably last TW,

rash statement.... give it a month or two and you might want to revise that...

i said the same thing after my first. then i did a second, then i crewed for one... and i can feel myself being sucked back in.... 2008? or  2009?
anyone need a teammember with a little bit of tw experience?

[Maggot]

"... you were only referring to the last leg, and that you wouldn't do it that way.  But, as I slipped and slid in that mud, and as I feel right now, I couldn't give a rat's how you would do it." Awiseman

One of the things that appeals about Trailwalker (at least to me) is the team member dynamics that take place in what is essentially an individual sport. As Awiseman already pointed out, his team couldn't actually 'finish' at the end checkpoint until the final member was there anyway. Their team strategy worked for them, it may not for others. If officials were to start policing how far team members drifted apart in between checkpoints, many teams would be disqualified, including mine.

[Colin]

awiseman, on Mar 26 2007, 02:05 PM, said:

There was discussion between all team members about how we would proceed.  Richard expressed his view, and what happened is a matter for us within the team, I reckon.  Certainly if Richard wanted to discuss the matter with us further I would listen very attentively.

But anyone else - go as public as you like.

Whether Tim was tongue in cheek or not, is a matter for Tim.

I'm moving on.

Good on you awiseman. You guys had your own plan for moving as fast as possible within the rules, and its your team's decision , not anyone else's.

Pastyboy is not only being pedantic, but he is interpreting the rules in his own way. The way I read it (rule 4), " all members must stay together between checkpoints" is that you must be together at CP1, then at CP2 etc, so that teams are together until the end and you don't get a chaotic situation of different team members at various CP's. There is absolutely no reference to any sort of 'gap' that mustn't be exceeded whilst moving, nor is there any way (or any mention) of policing such.
For people to say that >1hr is "outside the spirit" is their own feeling about it. They should apply that to their own team and forget about what others are doing within the rules. Why not 30min or 5min or even 30sec?

Gee guys, there must be a bigger gripe somewhere else.

[laotze]

Thanks Maggot and Colin.

[tim]

gee when I read "all members must stay together between checkpoints" I thought it meant all team members must stay together between checkpoints.

I can see the ambiguity.

I have a feeling that it is incase someone falls off the trail or injures themselves then they have the safety of having someone else there to assist.  Which I am thinking is why they wrote this "Under no circumstances are individuals to be left unaccompanied."

[Jogger]

Colin and awiseman - can you guys read ?

Quote

4. All team members must stay together between checkpoints and must check-in and check-out together at each checkpoint.

The actual wording is that you start a section together, you stay together, and you finish the section together. This is also the intent of the wording (I was on trailwalker committee for 4 or 5 years).

It's a safety thing:

Quote

5. Any member who is injured or exhausted must be brought to the nearest checkpoint by team mates for assistance.

If all his "mates" have cleared off then he will be left for dead for someone else to deal with (presumably?)

Colin is right though in that there is no definition of what "together" actually means - 5m or 5miles ? I would take it to mean "within normal eyesight" so that safety/accidents could be observed.

Call me a wanker but as a race director I don't like it when runners ignore our carefully thought out plans (that we have agreed with ambos, police, councils, etc will be upheld) and do their own rule interpretations. I am sure Trailwalker people feel the same.

Having said all that though I wasn't there and am not hot under the collar about it, so don't sweat it.

[weary]

What Awiseman's team did was up to them, but let's not fool ourselves that Oxfam's intentions weren't anything but crystal clear. Their requirement that competitors travel in groups was obviously influenced by safety considerations.

From the Oxfam Trailwalker Rules & Regulations...

4. All team members must stay together between checkpoints and must check-in and check-out together at each checkpoint.
6. Under no circumstances are individuals to be left unaccompanied.
9. If two members of a team have withdrawn, the remaining two members must accompany another team between checkpoints. This is to ensure that all event participants travel in groups of at least three people for safety.

adw

[caleb]

Quote

Gee guys, there must be a bigger gripe somewhere else.

Doesn't look like it

[azza]

Maybe that's why Trailwalker mandates 2 phones per team - one for emergencies, and one for the lead man to call for pizza at the checkpoint, so it arrives in time for the last man to have it hot!

Edited by azza, 27 March 2007 - 08:09 AM.

[laotze]

adw, on Mar 26 2007, 11:18 PM, said:

What Awiseman's team did was up to them, but let's not fool ourselves that Oxfam's intentions weren't anything but crystal clear. Their requirement that competitors travel in groups was obviously influenced by safety considerations.

From the Oxfam Trailwalker Rules & Regulations...

4. All team members must stay together between checkpoints and must check-in and check-out together at each checkpoint.
6. Under no circumstances are individuals to be left unaccompanied.
9. If two members of a team have withdrawn, the remaining two members must accompany another team between checkpoints. This is to ensure that all event participants travel in groups of at least three people for safety.

adw

I'm completely over this year's Trailwalker, and really happy with how I went and how the team went.  So gripes don't come into it.

Nevertheless, I think rule 6 was breached by numerous participants, (I saw lots of solo runners/walkers) and I don't believe there was one team that was reduced to two people that followed rule 9 (I saw plenty of runners/walkers in pairs only) but that's ok with me.

Compared with the Six Foot Track (with individuals going for it as hard as they can, and no rules about keeping together with another runner) the Trailwalker was a safer event, because there were regular checkpoints to ensure everyone was getting to where they should.  But of course the rules have to accommodate not only highly experienced trial ultra runners, and very fit individuals, but groups of inexperienced walkers with quite varied degrees of fitness and trail navigation abilities.

If I could change places with David Hicks in Guantanamo Bay, I'd do it just to expiate the guilt and shame I feel for having dared to transgress the holy codes of those who clearly have never broken a rule in their puritanical lives.

But I am heartened by the words of an earlier wilderness endurance performer:
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

[Colin]

KevinTiller, on Mar 27 2007, 12:10 AM, said:

Colin and awiseman - can you guys read ?

Actually , yes , because I have just read this line from you

I just thought that staying together 'between checkpoints' can be interpreted as you wish, i.e. "we started the leg together and we finished it together". That , and the fact that it appears more as 'advice' rather than a law resulting in disqualification, because there is absolutely no way of policing it.

Luckily the laws of this country are not worded by Tim or Kevin or criminals would be getting off scot free

Why don't they simply say "stay together at all times during the race, the maximum allowable separation being xxx" -full stop

But more importantly , my comments were stirred by the nature of the gripes from Tim and Pasty, when they could have acknowledged that team's performance instead.

If they are indeed concerned about 'spirit of the law', why are they not making similar comments about overnighting in B&B's or taking an unreasonably long time to get between the cancelled legs when the clock is stopped- is there a greater way of taking advantage of the 'spirit' than this?-, or anything else that participants may have done wrong in their 'holier than thou' opinion.

I wasn't there, and don't care about the TW rules, but just commented re the negativity displayed towards awiseman.

cheers

edit , ps

If they were running for sheep stations and a complaint was lodged then the legality of that wording would not stand up in court, 'spirit of law ' or not.
Sarcastic remarks about 'ambiguity' unfortunately does not win court cases Tim

If people want to go down the road of complaining about 'spirit of law' and 'concience' then they need to ask themselves whether they have never ever done anything (even minor) like drafting for one second, cutting over a kerb for one metre (if you are expected to assume the  course measured on road), accepting a drink from a bystander/second who was moving at the time etc etc, or whether other actions in TW were of similar nature.

Thats what my post was about, not whether awiseman's team broke a rule.

Edited by Colin, 27 March 2007 - 11:08 AM.

[chilliman]

Well done ssorc, which team did you run with ? I have pics of other teams finishing but only put up those with Cool runners that I knew.

Are you sure they were "runners" taking the glow sticks ? I saw the first 30 teams finish and I didn't notice any with glow sticks in hand.
I agree with you though if they were taking them, and also with the gu wrappers along the trail.




I have great admiration for the teams I saw finishing as a "team", in some cases forfeiting a great time to walk the last 20-30k to get the whole team home intact. What really inspired me last year was a team carrying a badly cramping member up Mt Donna Buang in almost blizzard conditions, but they made it home as a team.

It was also evident on Friday night, watching the groups of 4 bouncy head torches coming in from afar, the elation and camaraderie between members far surpassed that expressed by individuals finishing then re-grouping as the rest of the team arrived. I believe it also showed the teams mindset on entering for such an event. Ie, they have trained as a team, they will finish as a team, the spirit of Trailwalker.

However, I can also appreciate where the likes of the Ultrarunners are coming from. These guys are experienced trail runners, in most cases only ever running in solitude and self supported. Their "teams" only being assembled at the last minute enforces the individualistic mentality. So being alone on a section of single trail in the dark, rain, mud, and remoteness is not as big an issue as a runner who has never run at night let alone experienced an event of this duration. As long as there is communication of an agreed plan between team members and regrouping at Checkpoints I don't have a problem, but I don't make the rules. I was tempted to throw on a pair of shoes and a head torch and go out in search of RMC on friday night, but the guys assured me he'd be along soon enough, and sure enough he was.

[chilliman]

On the subject of pushing the rules, I did oberve one of the top 5 teams having their camelbaks carried by support crew on the run. <_<

Edited by chilliman, 27 March 2007 - 02:54 PM.

[albryantsmith]

chilliman, on Mar 24 2007, 01:52 PM, said:

Yep top effort by the Divas !
For the record Magnus and Dave (Maui Jims) were held at check point 8 for 45mins as they were down to 2 team members running in 1st. They were allowed to run on with the girls to the finish and let them take line honours as the first  team of 4.

Hi!

Just wanted to support this comment - Magnus and Dave were wonderful company for us Divas over the last 30km. They were a welcome distraction from my calf pain, and I was honoured to run with people of such calibre. Here's an excerpt from my write-up of our Trailwalker win:

" Not only did two of our team members (Nelly and Anne) have impressive marathon credentials, we actually picked up Magnus Michelsson at checkpoint 6. Half of his team had dropped out, so the two remaining members (Magnus and Dave) had to jog with us, for safety's sake. So they jog/walked the rest of the Trail (30km) with us, and provided wonderful company, and a welcome distraction from the heat / pain. It felt very surreal for little ol' me to be jogging along with such a running God. If I'd had any paper on me, I would have asked for his autograph.
Magnus and Dave were sportsmanly to the end: even though they were stronger runners than us, they stopped before the finish line, and let us cross before them. Perfect gentlemen."

Thanks again to Magnus and Dave,

Al.

[chilliman]

albryantsmith said:

Here's an excerpt from my write-up of our Trailwalker win:

Well done Alison to you and the Diva's and a big welcome to Cool Running.

Dave said to me you girls were flying even when you were walking !

We would all love to read the rest of your write up  

[rohan]

Colin, on Mar 27 2007, 12:07 AM, said:

If they are indeed concerned about 'spirit of the law', why are they not making similar comments about overnighting in B&B's

ooops!
the team i was crewing for are guilty of the B&B sin... bacon and eggs breakfast and all...

what rule is that in contravention of? they informed organizers at mt evelyn that this would be the case and not to send out a search party as they would take something like 13 hrs b4 arrival at the next check point.

they did keep together all the time though!

[Pasty]

rohan said:

what rule is that in contravention of?

It's not in contradiction of anything.  You're reading between the lines.  I don't think anyone has criticised whether you take 12 hrs or 48hrs to complete this event.  It's great that teams participate whether they are use to this kind of event of not.  Whether they sleep in a B&B, or in a ditch on the Warburton Trail (Pastyboy, 2005), I don't think anyone cares - if you're out there participating, I think most CR's are supporting.

The thing I don't get about this whole thread, and hey, correct if if I'm totally totally wrong, pedantic, or whatever, since most of you know me personally anyway (including you Awiseman) is this:

1. Oxfam Trailwalker is a team event. Oxfam Trailwalker is the world's greatest team challenge.  The teams I have participated in TW before have always emphasized the team approach first.  I would never ever have thought of running it myself and meeting everyone else at the Checkpoint (and ordering a Pizza, as Azza suggested, for my slowest runner).   Maggot and Awiseman your approach just doesn't seem like a team.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds much more like an individual event tied together by name only and inconvenienced by slower team-mates.

awiseman said:

Rob had got under fifteen hours, and Paul was about 20 minutes behind  me. Richard came in about forty minutes later and finally as a team we  checked in. Under sixteen hours.

Going solo in the last few legs after a 35oC+ day just seems wrong, and irresponsible to your teammates and the race organizers (and their insurers).  Tell me differently, but it read that way to me.

2. I'd still like to know RMC's version of events.  He's posted since, but not on this thread.  I'll ask the hard question - since no one else will.  Did he feel like he participated in a good team when he finished TW07? Maybe he enjoyed that extra hour by himself, and this is all a storm in (another) teacup.

3. Geez, I'd hate to be a PLI provider of an event these days. And holy crapola, I'm putting one on soon.

4. Oxfam and fundraising was a reasonable part of my team efforts. It ain't all about the running, unless you treat it as a $250+$100 entry fee.


Final points
1. Rohan - good luck on Sunday - hope you enjoy the day and build on your Shepp HIM experience.
2. Well done Diva's - awesome race, and could we see a full race report?

Flame away...

[Maggot]

pastyboy said:

Maggot and Awiseman your approach just doesn't seem like a team.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds much more like an individual event tied together by name only and inconvenienced by slower team-mates.  Going solo in the last few legs after a 35oC+ day just seems wrong, and irresponsible to your teammates and the race organizers"

Fair comment Pastyboy. There are, I agree in hindsight, safety considerations. I would suggest Awiseman's team possibly never intended for this to happen as a planned strategy but fell inadvertently into it just to guts out the race. I must admit to being unaware of these rules and can appreciate why the organisers may have them.
As for my team approach, I guess we adopted Kevin Tiller's measure of 'how far is too far?' and had a line of sight and/or shout policy, although this was more just the way it happened on the day as we were all struggling at different times more than intended. So on Warby Trail, for instance, perhaps as far out as 200 metres apart but on the last leg in the rain, the semi-dark and thick bush maybe 10 metres max. I think by then we all only had one speed anyway - S L O W...

[milov]

Hey All,

in regards to the issues being raised ad nauseam in this thread

Guys please let it go... or if you can't, then please start a new thread devoted to gripes about the Melbourne TW 07

It seems that 80% of what I am reading here is bogged down on one issue when I would rather be reading about the experiences of people who have done this great event, or questions from those who want to know more about it

milov

[laotze]

pastyboy, on Mar 28 2007, 05:34 PM, said:

It's not in contradiction of anything.  You're reading between the lines.  I don't think anyone has criticised whether you take 12 hrs or 48hrs to complete this event.  It's great that teams participate whether they are use to this kind of event of not.  Whether they sleep in a B&B, or in a ditch on the Warburton Trail (Pastyboy, 2005), I don't think anyone cares - if you're out there participating, I think most CR's are supporting.

The thing I don't get about this whole thread, and hey, correct if if I'm totally totally wrong, pedantic, or whatever, since most of you know me personally anyway (including you Awiseman) is this:

1. Oxfam Trailwalker is a team event. Oxfam Trailwalker is the world's greatest team challenge.  The teams I have participated in TW before have always emphasized the team approach first.  I would never ever have thought of running it myself and meeting everyone else at the Checkpoint (and ordering a Pizza, as Azza suggested, for my slowest runner).   Maggot and Awiseman your approach just doesn't seem like a team.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds much more like an individual event tied together by name only and inconvenienced by slower team-mates.  Going solo in the last few legs after a 35oC+ day just seems wrong, and irresponsible to your teammates and the race organizers (and their insurers).  Tell me differently, but it read that way to me.

2. I'd still like to know RMC's version of events.  He's posted since, but not on this thread.  I'll ask the hard question - since no one else will.  Did he feel like he participated in a good team when he finished TW07? Maybe he enjoyed that extra hour by himself, and this is all a storm in (another) teacup.

3. Geez, I'd hate to be a PLI provider of an event these days. And holy crapola, I'm putting one on soon.

4. Oxfam and fundraising was a reasonable part of my team efforts. It ain't all about the running, unless you treat it as a $250+$100 entry fee.
Final points
1. Rohan - good luck on Sunday - hope you enjoy the day and build on your Shepp HIM experience.
2. Well done Diva's - awesome race, and could we see a full race report?

Flame away...

I am so over this, but I still have the energy for a reposte:

RMC has posted on this thread.  And in reality, what he thought about the experience as a team thing, he could go public with if he wanted to, or he could tell us privately (which I've alluded to in an earlier message) and he still can.  Criticism from him I would accept with humility.

As I said before, I could not give a rats how Pastyboy would do it, or how he wants to feel as a team.  He wasn't in our team, and I felt differently.  I don't consider I have any right to tell him how he should participate in an event like this, but if he wants to go on about how we did it,  good on him.

I am older by nearly ten years than anyone else in my team.  The other members have all run up to 90 kilometres in races or much further.  I never had.  I did not know if was going to be able to finish, let alone what time I would do.  I did not want to let me team down, so I moved along at the most comfortable pace I could.  It worked for me.  After that experience I know what I can do in that sort staged event over a long distance in very trying conditions.  I felt (past tense) great just to finish.  I am still glad to have that experience.  I will use it next time, if there is a next time.

If I had blown up, or broken down and had to pull out, I would have felt I'd let my team mates down.  If I had ignored their various difficulties (and we all had them) I'd feel quite guilty.  But I didn't, and I don't.

Arguably, the team challenge is to get to the end and check in as a team.  We did that.

Broken rules?  Not in the spirit of Oxfam Trailwalker.? Yep - we didn't stay together between checkpoints. and we probably broke a few other rules, I don't know about yet (but some-one is bound to tell me).  Pastyboy, did all your teammates lie down in the ditch and have a sleep with you?  Good on them if they did.

We didn't litter the path, like some teams ahead of us did.  We didn't nick the glowsticks, like some-one did.  We were polite and cheerfully expressed admiration and gratitude to the volunteers.  We talked and joked with other participants.

We raised a lot of money for Oxfam.  Do you think I still have a warm glow about that after the sort of carping I've read about my performance?  Should Oxfam refuse to take it because we did not follow the rules, or the spirit of the event?  I don't think so.

As for Public Liability Insurers - did you read the disclaimer?  Do you know what the 2004 amendments to the Wrongs Act have done to limit the rights of participants in such events to bring claims?  PL Insurers are taking money for jam.  There has not been a claim arising out of an organised funrun or event of this kind in the last twenty years if at all.

And, by the way, I've been trying to get hold of a copy of a PL policy wording for such an event, and no-one can get me one - not insurers, brokers, or organisers.  So when you get yours Pastyboy, how about putting a copy up on Coolrunning so we can all see the exclusions in the policy and the conditions that apply.

What do you think the message your attitude has conveyed to other CRs, or visitors to this site about entering Oxfam Trailwalker in future?  Could it be 'look out, the scrutineers are watching and they'll eagerly tar and feather you if you transgress even the spirit  of the holy Oxfam experience'?.

Your point has been made.  And made it again.  Give it another run if you wish.

Edited by awiseman, 28 March 2007 - 08:48 PM.

[rohan]

pastyboy, on Mar 28 2007, 07:34 AM, said:

It's not in contradiction of anything.  You're reading between the lines.

the question was more to colin who it seemed may have had a potentially dim view of B&Bers.

not the way i'd do it myself, but i had viewed it as one of the possible variations on the event.

re the "keeping together" thing. some people getting more hot under the collar than need be. it can be a discussion awiseman, and someone having a viewpoint contrary to your own doesn't have to be viewed as a deeply personal attack. it can be seen as forthright airing of an opinion.

for what it's worth, i have been in a team where everyone was always in sight of each other, and one where we had a slower guy who we took turns walking back there with him and regrouping at checkpoints.
perhaps we didn't keep a close enough eye on him,even though we always had someone with him. perhaps always being the guy who was strugglying made him push himself beyond what he should've.
he got rhabdomyolosis (spelling?), wound up on dialysis for 2 months and will have compromised health for the rest of his life.

i'm not sure how this plays into the whole debate really, but i sure felt more comfortable that the second team  i was on had a stick together policy.

[caleb]

Anyone for Tennis?

[Vegie-girl]

awiseman, on Mar 28 2007, 04:44 AM, said:

What do you think the message your attitude has conveyed to other CRs, or visitors to this site about entering Oxfam Trailwalker in future?  Could it be 'look out, the scrutineers are watching and they'll eagerly tar and feather you if you transgress even the spirit  of the holy Oxfam experience'?.

Nah, don't worry about that awiseman.  The message I get from reading all this is "pick your team carefully".  

Congratulations on achieving your goal and supporting a great event.  

[chilliman]

Vegie-girl, on Mar 29 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

"pick your team carefully".

And name them after a funny name on a hut ....

[tim]

My very first trailwalker I ran for The Urgent Sperm Delivery Team.  It was a important job and we got our delivery through on time.  

Now I just run for FART.  Not as valuable a cargo but describes our team pretty well.

[silver]

tails from the back of the pack.

seems like people have got a bit touchy about some of the rules, but hey - who cares - as a first time walker i loved it.

Finshed 8pm Sat night, and yes we stayed in a B&B - but with one team member with a 1 year old baby, there are more important needs than blisters and gatorade needs.

Rohan - we were the team that followed your wife's team out of Mt Evelyn and then strolled past them on the Warby trail.
We lost a member to blisters and exhaustion at Worri Yallock and saw a team of 2 stuggling along the trail. They confirmed that at each checkpoint they were being asked by the volunteers as to who they were walking with so as to ensure safety.

this is after all a particpation event, and a fanstastic effort by thos ethat ran it, but it really is the taking part that counts.

See you all again next year - 100km with Donna at the finish!

[ack]

Maggot, on Mar 26 2007, 10:15 PM, said:

If officials were to start policing how far team members drifted apart in between checkpoints, many teams would be disqualified, including mine.

It should also be kept in mind that the event depends on a huge number of volunteers. (I have been one a number of times in previous years, and a competitor for the last two years) Its hard enough getting enough volunteers to handle what MUST be done for the event without adding "spacing police".

When I did the job of trail marshall I noticed that the running teams earlier in the event often went in groups of twos or were spread out by varying amounts where the walkers tended to remain in groups of four, or travelled as multiple groups.

In my team this year there were many times when we became separated, and other times when we ran all four together. I have been in three different teams so far for Trailwalker and there always seems to be some splitting up as the event progresses.

I guess some team members just need their "own space" sometimes - for whatever reason.

We had one team member this year who had leg cramps that started before we got to Belgrave. He pushed through and finished the event and just about collapsed at the finish line. However, there was always someone with him through the whole event. I really admire the mental stamina of this guy.

In the end I guess it comes down to "whatever works."

(P.S. Thanks Chilliman for the welcoming and the pics of the finish.)

Edited by ack, 30 March 2007 - 08:18 AM.

[albryantsmith]

chilliman, on Mar 28 2007, 03:42 PM, said:

We would all love to read the rest of your write up  

OK, you asked for it...

Here's the Dashing Divas' write-up of our Trailwalker experiences, for those of you with 10 minutes to spare: (keep in mind that it was written with non-runners in mind!)
----------------------------------------------------
Hello all!

Short version: we won Trailwalker, in 10 hours 44 minutes! Apparently, we are the first ever all-female team to win it outright, which is a bonus! Big thanks to everyone who donated to Oxfam, and our fabulous support crew: Olinka, Carleen and especially Andrew Selby-Smith.

Long version: What follows are my hints on how to win Trailwalker, if you're tempted next year:

Step 1. Find a nice team. While Nelly Conus, Alice Kemp and I had been Dashing Divas since November, Anne Ziogos came on board only one month ago. A Richmond Harrier, she is a pocket rocket, with 15-odd marathons under her belt.

Step 2. Meet your team members. Admittedly, we didn't actually manage this one: Nelly and Alice met on the morning of Trailwalker. But they certainly knew each other quite well 89km later...

Step 3. Get as early a start as possible: we started off at 7am on Friday, which meant we'd run a fair distance before the 38 degree heat set in.

Step 4. Start slow and steady, and finish...well, even slower and less steady. While we powered through the first 3 legs (relatively speaking - ie. 6min kms), by the Warburton Trail we were jogging for 10 minutes, walking for 5.

Step 5. Bring more food than you leave with. While most of us came fully prepared, and ate and drank our with way through our supplies, Alice actually collected food from the checkpoints along the way.  I think she's almost hoarded enough to last until next year's Trailwalker.

Step 6. Enjoy the scenery. As much as I love living in central Melbourne, spending a day running around the Dandenongs was simply divine. Such tranquility, such beautiful forest tracks, and such fresh air. Just a pity that it's so damn hilly.

Step 7. Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. With a 38 degree day, we all drank our body-weight in liquids. It was scary to see teams in front of us drop out like flies, from dehydration / heat exhaustion. Nelly (of all people!) ran into some problems later with low sodium, but is now recovering well.

Step 8. Exploit the fire ban. Because of a total fire ban, one section was closed for the day. So, we had to skip the infamous 1000 steps in Ferntree Gully.  Given that these 11kms were some of the toughest of the whole trail, I must admit that I wasn't particularly disappointed to have missed them...

Step 9. Keep in touch with your team-mates. If I had to put our win down to anything, it would be staying hydrated. But a close second would be communicating with your team-mates: how you're feeling, how long you want at each checkpoint, when you need to walk... I was really touched when my Divas walked with me when I was struggling. You can't buy friendship like that.

Step 10. Prepare yourself for the mind-numbing boredom of the Warburton Trail. While its 30kms of wide, straight, flat path makes for easy running, it can be a hell of a boring, long slog. Especially when you've already got 50km under your belt, and are starting to tire a little.

Step 11. Have a fantastic support crew, which we couldn't have done without! Olinka provided wonderful support early on, and Carleen encouragement over the last stage. But Andrew Selby-Smith was our life-saver during the hot, exposed conditions on the Warburton Trail. By this stage, the major challenge was not the running itself, but simply staying hydrated. Andy came to our rescue along the next two sections: he met us a numerous points along the way, with his esky and endless supply of cool drinks. Life-saver.

Step 12. Run with a marathon champion. Not only did two of our team members (Nelly and Anne) have impressive marathon credentials, we actually picked up Magnus Michelsson at checkpoint 6. (For non-runners out there, he's arguably Melbourne's strongest marathon runner.) Half of his team had dropped out, so the two remaining members (Magnus and Dave) had to jog with us, for safety's sake. So they jog/walked the rest of the Trail (30km) with us, and provided wonderful company, and a welcome distraction from the heat / pain. It felt very surreal for little ol' me to be jogging along with such a running God. If I'd had any paper on me, I would have asked for his autograph.

Magnus and Dave were sportsmanly to the end: even though they were stronger runners than us, they stopped before the finish line, and let us cross before them. Perfect gentlemen.

Step 13. Have some champagne at the finish line. We crossed the line in 10 hours 44 minutes, and were the first ever all-female team to win Trailwalker outright. Needless to say, there was much celebrating and champagne-popping on the finish line!

Step 14. Thank everyone who supported you. Thanks again to all who donated to Oxfam - we've already raised our goal of $2000, and are heading towards $3000. And for those who sent supportive text messages on the day - they were much appreciated, and provided an instant kick of energy along the way.

Special thank you to Dan Chubb (a friend from uni who drove out to watch us finish) and to our support crew: Olinka, Carleen and especially Andrew Selby-Smith. Also to Alan Ch'ng, who had offered to support crew, but we finished before he was due to start (!).

Step 14. Destroy all photos involving swearing, crying or blisters, and only circulate 'pretty' ones. I've attached some photos from the finish, but if you can't view them, check out this website:

  http://www.flickr.co...ne/pool/page19/

Thanks again, and looking forward to next year,

Al Bryant-Smith.

[Bandanna]

Congratulations once again Al on a tremendous and well deserved win!  

Hope to see the you and the other Divas tackling the Sydney course on 24 August (registrations open tomorrow, 3rd April).

Sydney Trailwalker

[Pasty]

Thanks Al for the great race report.
Well done to you all, and hope you have recovered well.

[PiledHigherq]

Interesting the amount of news coverage a 'corporate' charity event like run for the kids gets where 26,000 people raise $20 each for $500,000 vs Trailwalker 2,400 people raise more than $500 each for $1,200,000+.

Surely it isn't a cyclincal ploy by the sponsors tp get lots of free publicity?

[caleb]

Now I don't want to rekindle an old flame....
but seems to me the ladies spirit of comradewomenship is something we boys could learn from.
Given the quality of the male individual runners out there..boys who can do the six foot in 4 hrs odd....and not too take anything away from the Diva's....it does bemuse (and amuse) me that not one male team could seem to ..well be a team.
At least this is how it reads after 4 pages of arguments. (by men of course).
Now I know this is rich coming from an observer..however next year I hope to do the course as part of a team..and I will endevour to leave my competitive spirit behind..somewhere on the six foot track!
smoke on!

If you have raced with men and they have worn you out, how can you compete with women?

Edited by kai li, 02 April 2007 - 08:51 PM.

[laotze]

kai li, on Apr 2 2007, 08:47 PM, said:

Now I don't want to rekindle an old flame....
but seems to me the ladies spirit of comradewomenship is something we boys could learn from.
Given the quality of the male individual runners out there..boys who can do the six foot in 4 hrs odd....and not too take anything away from the Diva's....it does bemuse (and amuse) me that not one male team could seem to ..well be a team.
At least this is how it reads after 4 pages of arguments. (by men of course).
Now I know this is rich coming from an observer..however next year I hope to do the course as part of a team..and I will endevour to leave my competitive spirit behind..somewhere on the six foot track!
smoke on!

If you have raced with men and they have worn you out, how can you compete with women?

Well said Kai Li.

"If you have raced with men and they have worn you out, how can you compete with women?"  Quite Zen, I think.

Perhaps the ideal is a mixed team; at  the worst, the ditches or B&Bs will look more attractive.