1435 replies to this topic

[slowmo]

tim, on May 26 2008, 05:37 PM, said:

I imagine you are biomechanically gifted

  <== my response

I was interested in something Rudolf said earlier, about the risk of rolling on your ankle being reduced simply because your bare(-ish) foot can't roll much.  I find now that if I do a long-ish run in shoes, especially with a few hills, a tightness starts to develop on the outside of my right thigh (ITB ?).  I think it's caused by my biomechanically challenged right leg action - I toe out quite a bit with my right foot.  I think Rudolf's point might explain why I don't get knee pain anymore.

It's taken me quite a few months to work up to running 21km in the sandals.  And, like you, I've noticed that by taking it slowly there has been a change in the range of my heel movement, esp. on the right foot which used to be very stiff but now seems much better.

yours in funny footwear
slowmo

[RunBare]

slowmo, on May 26 2008, 06:04 PM, said:

Sounds good !

the Sri Chinmoy Mirambeena event on the 22nd June.

The Sri Chinmoy Mirambeena is in my local area.  I'll come to that one for a meeting/running of the Funny Footwear group

[rubberchicken]

G'day all! Just wanted to say thankyou to all that posted here. I am now on my way to being a barefoot runner pretty much thanks to this thread.

My experience with running has been a love / hate affair, with me loving it but my body hating me for it. My technique sucked and as a result I got injuries. Finding this thread was a bit of a revelation. I found from my first barefoot run on grass my technique improved drastically. I now actually look like I can run i.e smooth, flowing, good posture, and more hamstring work and despite my calves copping a caning at the moment my body feels so much better.

At present I am running on a sports field ( very big - has over twenty hockey fields on it ) for time and with a few intervals until I have enough endurance to go on paths etc. Then I am skipping the Nike Frees and going straight for the 5 Fingers. Really, really enjoying it. Thanks people

[slowmo]

rubberchicken, on Jul 23 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

I now actually look like I can run i.e smooth, flowing, good posture, and more hamstring work and despite my calves copping a caning at the moment my body feels so much better.

At present I am running on a sports field ( very big - has over twenty hockey fields on it ) for time and with a few intervals until I have enough endurance to go on paths etc. Then I am skipping the Nike Frees and going straight for the 5 Fingers. Really, really enjoying it. Thanks people

Hey rubberchicken - great name.  You're not related to psychochicken by any chance are you ?

#1.  Welcome to CR !  Sounds like you've been a keen reader so it's great to have you here as a fully fledged member of the community.

#2.  Welcome to the very exclusive Freaky Footed (& Funny Footwear) sub-section of CR   Hopefully it won't remain quite so exclusive for long as more people such as yourself attempt some or all of their running barefooted or with minimal footwear.  It's great to hear that the transition is going well for you.  The calf soreness seems to be a compulsory initiation to the BF club but it will pass.  A few months ago a few minutes of barefoot running had my calf muscles aching for days, but now running a half-mara is fine.

Looking forward to hear how you get on.

slowmo

[tim]

that is great.  I was running in the park barefoot yesterday and I felt fantastic.  There is nothing like it.  Reading your post makes me keen to get down there again.

thanks for the update.


Oh it is your first post.  Man that is gold.

[errorfilenotfound]

I did 8km yesterday - all barefoot. sand.
do you think it makes a lot of difference sand v grass ?
I am careful of the camber - usually pretty flat sand anyway.

[tim]

soyboy, on Jul 23 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

I did 8km yesterday - all barefoot. sand.
do you think it makes a lot of difference sand v grass ?
I am careful of the camber - usually pretty flat sand anyway.

I love hard sand right on the water edge where you can feet the cool of the waves.  Soft sand is good 'cause you get more workout with less impact.  Grass is good 'cause you can get some speed up and the ground is harder so it feels better for your technique.   Footpath sucks!  But i worry about the grass at the side since I am not sure if there is glass in it etc.  Footpath you really get to feel if your technique is right.

[Bellthorpe]

Like Tim, I love running on the water's edge barefoot. I do it once a week (Bribie Island). Summer or winter, rain or sun. Chariots of Fire playing in my head.Running barefoot challenges your running style, and on sand it exercises your feet and lower legs in ways that road running can't.

[serena]

rubberchicken, on Jul 23 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

G'day all! Just wanted to say thankyou to all that posted here. I am now on my way to being a barefoot runner pretty much thanks to this thread.

My experience with running has been a love / hate affair, with me loving it but my body hating me for it. My technique sucked and as a result I got injuries. Finding this thread was a bit of a revelation. I found from my first barefoot run on grass my technique improved drastically. I now actually look like I can run i.e smooth, flowing, good posture, and more hamstring work and despite my calves copping a caning at the moment my body feels so much better.

At present I am running on a sports field ( very big - has over twenty hockey fields on it ) for time and with a few intervals until I have enough endurance to go on paths etc. Then I am skipping the Nike Frees and going straight for the 5 Fingers. Really, really enjoying it. Thanks people

good to read rubberchicken, I have been experimenting with barefoot too lately, it is a very freeing feeling. If you don't have any 5fingers yet, my good friend henry is the WA stockist (I don't have any financial interest, just helping out Henry by mentioning it) so let me know if you want his number.
SJ

[Colsy]

soyboy, on Jul 23 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

I did 8km yesterday - all barefoot. sand.
do you think it makes a lot of difference sand v grass ?
I am careful of the camber - usually pretty flat sand anyway.

tim, on Jul 23 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

I love hard sand right on the water edge where you can feet the cool of the waves.  Soft sand is good 'cause you get more workout with less impact.  Grass is good 'cause you can get some speed up and the ground is harder so it feels better for your technique.   Footpath sucks!  But i worry about the grass at the side since I am not sure if there is glass in it etc.  Footpath you really get to feel if your technique is right.

Bellthorpe, on Jul 23 2008, 03:44 PM, said:

Like Tim, I love running on the water's edge barefoot. I do it once a week (Bribie Island). Summer or winter, rain or sun. Chariots of Fire playing in my head.
Running barefoot challenges your running style, and on sand it exercises your feet and lower legs in ways that road running can't.

This Summer I intend to do a whole heap of Ks, barefoot on the beach. Cant wait. May even hold a CR barefoot challenge. I am expecting resistance from the Eastern Suburbs gang though, they havent had their shoes off since the '80s, when Homy Ped launched the Masseur sandal.

[RunBare]

Good to hear from you rubberchicken!  Welcome to world of barefoot

Glad you're enjoying the benefits of barefoot running.  Five fingers are great too for when you need some protection against the elements.  

I used to wear Nike Frees too, but I took them off somewhere one day to run... and umm.... haven't seen them since  

[tim]

some interesting barefoot facts.

in 2006 a guy ran 15 marathons barefoot (Todd Byers)

Ken Saxton has run 59 barefoot marathons since 1998

Barefoot Ted ran 125km of a 100 miler barefoot.

fastest marathon barefoot # 2:12:00 Shivnath Singh 2004

[Rudolf]

Bellthorpe, on Jul 23 2008, 03:44 PM, said:

Like Tim, I love running on the water's edge barefoot.

me three


there is a contiuos beach from Warnambool to Port Fairy


there is a 90 miles beach in VIC east


there must be lots of places to have a very long run

There is an oficial ultra in FEB in NZ on the very nort tip of the north Island -all on the beach

tim, on Jul 23 2008, 04:33 PM, said:

some interesting barefoot facts.

in 2006 a guy ran 15 marathons barefoot (Todd Byers)

Ken Saxton has run 59 barefoot marathons since 1998

Barefoot Ted ran 125km of a 100 miler barefoot.

fastest marathon barefoot # 2:12:00 Shivnath Singh 2004

olympic gold medal Abebe Bikila

[tim]

staypuff, on Jul 23 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

cant be bothered reading whole thread lol are the nike frees a good transition tool to barefoot i have a beach nearby but am not sure if its a good idea to go barefoot if you cant see whats on the ground and thought the frees would ofer some protection

I think aqua socks or five fingers would be good for that.  Aqua sock are at Kmart and Woolies for under $10 so if you don't like them you can chuck them.

[phYx]

Good onya rubberchicken! It's great that you can feel your technique improve without shoes. It's such a good feeling knowing that your feet and legs can do their jobs as they should without anything getting in their way.

I did my longest ever five fingers run last weekend - 30k Sri Chinmoy event. It was awesome. I know it would have been a lot harder in my Asics.

[tim]

Rudolf, on Jul 23 2008, 04:36 PM, said:

olympic gold medal Abebe Bikila

2:15.16,2, Abebe Bikila, Olympic Marathon (1960) Olympic Marathon, Rome, Italy

[slowmo]

Rudolf, on Jul 23 2008, 04:36 PM, said:

There is an oficial ultra in FEB in NZ on the very nort tip of the north Island -all on the beach

that would be so good !

staypuff, on Jul 23 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

cant be bothered reading whole thread lol are the nike frees a good transition tool to barefoot i have a beach nearby but am not sure if its a good idea to go barefoot if you cant see whats on the ground and thought the frees would ofer some protection

if you're running on the sand staypuff why not wear some boat shoes / aqua socks - something like that... heaps cheaper and enough to protect you from sharp shells, bits of glass etc.

slowmo

phYx, on Jul 23 2008, 04:46 PM, said:

I did my longest ever five fingers run last weekend - 30k Sri Chinmoy event. It was awesome. I know it would have been a lot harder in my Asics.

slowmo

[Spud]

I've been running at least one sometimes two sessions per week barefoot at the grass oval near work.
I look forward to these sessions and have now ramped up to doing speedwork barefoot.
My feet, particularly the arches ached the first few weeks but they are much stronger for it now. I love the feeling
of a total engagement with the ground, mid to forefoot strike and the buzz of just feeling like a kid running again.
I don't have a pair of 5 fingers just yet but run a lot in KT26s which are a pretty minimilist shoe.

Anyone know where I can pick up Frees at a good price?

[RunBare]

Spud, on Jul 23 2008, 07:16 PM, said:

Anyone know where I can pick up Frees at a good price?

Nike factory outlet on Parramatta Road, Auburn.  Add your name to their email mailing list and they'll also let you know when they are having 30% off weekends (that's off their already discounted prices).

Also within walking distance of Kathmandu outlet, Adidas outlet and Rebel Sport outlet  

[rubberchicken]

Wow, thanks for the warm welcome everyone. Seems to be a great sense of community with the barefoot folk! Now lets get this multi quote fired up...

slowmo, on Jul 23 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

Hey rubberchicken - great name.  You're not related to psychochicken by any chance are you ?

#1.  Welcome to CR !  Sounds like you've been a keen reader so it's great to have you here as a fully fledged member of the community.

#2.  Welcome to the very exclusive Freaky Footed (& Funny Footwear) sub-section of CR  Hopefully it won't remain quite so exclusive for long as more people such as yourself attempt some or all of their running barefooted or with minimal footwear.  It's great to hear that the transition is going well for you.  The calf soreness seems to be a compulsory initiation to the BF club but it will pass.  A few months ago a few minutes of barefoot running had my calf muscles aching for days, but now running a half-mara is fine.

Looking forward to hear how you get on.

slowmo

Cheers mate - yeah I was wondering if my handle would be too close to psychochickens but I use / have used it on other forums so I stuck with it. Many moons ago I was in the military and rubberchicken is / was a slang term for something that looks or promises to be good but turns out to be a dud.

Also I have been reading quite a lot. I like to get some knowledge before asking questions and I don't like to post about things I know nothing about. After reading this and a few other links I wanted to try barefoot before posting. It went better than I thought to be honest and everything just seemed to click.

It now seems I am hooked and ready to be a part of what appears to be a possibly eccentric / tapped running community

tim, on Jul 23 2008, 01:19 PM, said:

that is great.  I was running in the park barefoot yesterday and I felt fantastic.  There is nothing like it.  Reading your post makes me keen to get down there again.

thanks for the update.


Oh it is your first post.  Man that is gold.

Cheers mate - I guess it may be a strange section for a first post. Don't know how that worked out but I'm glad you approve.

sjnathan, on Jul 23 2008, 01:45 PM, said:

good to read rubberchicken, I have been experimenting with barefoot too lately, it is a very freeing feeling. If you don't have any 5fingers yet, my good friend henry is the WA stockist (I don't have any financial interest, just helping out Henry by mentioning it) so let me know if you want his number.
SJ

By all means mate hook me up with his number it would help me a lot! I would much prefer to be able to try some on and talk to someone about what model I should look at. Can't do that from online shops. Any assistance is much appreciated

RunBare, on Jul 23 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

Good to hear from you rubberchicken!  Welcome to world of barefoot

Glad you're enjoying the benefits of barefoot running.  Five fingers are great too for when you need some protection against the elements.  

I used to wear Nike Frees too, but I took them off somewhere one day to run... and umm.... haven't seen them since  

Yeah I love it so far. I will train smart and only hit the tarmac and trails when I am ready. I am patient hence I don't believe I need to transition via Free's. I really want the 5 Fingers for running to/from work and possibly trails ( and Anaconda 2009? ).Thanks for the welcome

phYx, on Jul 23 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

Good onya rubberchicken! It's great that you can feel your technique improve without shoes. It's such a good feeling knowing that your feet and legs can do their jobs as they should without anything getting in their way.

I did my longest ever five fingers run last weekend - 30k Sri Chinmoy event. It was awesome. I know it would have been a lot harder in my Asics.

I would love to be able to do that sort of distance, congratulations. I think I will get there but will have to start afresh and not get ahead of myself. I first need to work up to a 7.5 or a 9 km trip to/from work - I have run this before but my knees didn't like it. Hence my interest in barefoot - the idea of me being able to do this without joint issues is very exciting.

Thanks again all, will 'see' you all around soon.

Cheers

[kathmandu]

rubberchicken, on Jul 23 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

yeah I was wondering if my handle would be too close to psychochickens but I use / have used it on other forums so I stuck with it.

No dramas there rubberchook   any poultry derivatives are keenly accepted on cr.

I was stoked to see another perth runner. Im a secret lurker on the barefoot threads as i am keen to give it a whirl one day, so was doubly stoked to read of your success.

Good luck, i look forward to reading more about you. or seeing your feet around the traps oneday.

Edited by PsychoChicken, 23 July 2008 - 08:41 PM.

[phYx]

rubberchicken, on Jul 23 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

It now seems I am hooked and ready to be a part of what appears to be a possibly eccentric / tapped running community

I wouldn't label us as eccentric. That sounds a bit negative. We are the enlightened ones. Everyone else must be eccentric with their big shoes with wave plates and air pockets.

rubberchicken, on Jul 23 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

I think I will get there but will have to start afresh and not get ahead of myself. I first need to work up to a 7.5 or a 9 km trip to/from work - I have run this before but my knees didn't like it. Hence my interest in barefoot - the idea of me being able to do this without joint issues is very exciting.

Depending on the cause of the problem, I think you will find your knee problems go away. That's a nice distance to be running to and from work. Build it up slowly because your muscles might not be used to working without shoes. Once you get into it you might find it's too easy to run barefoot (or with FF) and you might find you end up running a lot further and faster than expected.

[Colsy]

Spud, on Jul 23 2008, 07:16 PM, said:

I've been running at least one sometimes two sessions per week barefoot at the grass oval near work.
I look forward to these sessions and have now ramped up to doing speedwork barefoot.
My feet, particularly the arches ached the first few weeks but they are much stronger for it now. I love the feeling
of a total engagement with the ground, mid to forefoot strike and the buzz of just feeling like a kid running again.
I don't have a pair of 5 fingers just yet but run a lot in KT26s which are a pretty minimilist shoe.

Anyone know where I can pick up Frees at a good price?

I know they are crazy cheap online.

[rubberchicken]

PsychoChicken, on Jul 23 2008, 06:40 PM, said:

No dramas there rubberchook   any poultry derivatives are keenly accepted on cr.

I was stoked to see another perth runner. Im a secret lurker on the barefoot threads as i am keen to give it a whirl one day, so was doubly stoked to read of your success.

Good luck, i look forward to reading more about you. or seeing your feet around the traps oneday.

Cheers - will be doing the C2S this year and I guess I'll have to pound that one out but that's ok. I am looking to get more involved in running over the next year so it will only be a matter of time til our paths cross. Likewise, looking forward to it.

phYx, on Jul 23 2008, 06:41 PM, said:

I wouldn't label us as eccentric. That sounds a bit negative. We are the enlightened ones. Everyone else must be eccentric with their big shoes with wave plates and air pockets.



Depending on the cause of the problem, I think you will find your knee problems go away. That's a nice distance to be running to and from work. Build it up slowly because your muscles might not be used to working without shoes. Once you get into it you might find it's too easy to run barefoot (or with FF) and you might find you end up running a lot further and faster than expected.

If eccentric carries a negative vibe then that is not the word I was after. My take on eccentric is ' a little bid mad but in a cool way '. Kinda like adventure racers  and ultra marathon types if that makes it any clearer

[Spud]

Colsy, on Jul 23 2008, 08:48 PM, said:

I know they are crazy cheap online.

Colsy, could you PM me some details.

Cheers!

[slowmo]

phYx, on Jul 23 2008, 08:41 PM, said:

We are the enlightened ones. Everyone else must be eccentric with their big shoes with wave plates and air pockets.

I like the way you think phYx

slowmo

[serena]

Hi rubberchicken,
the guy you want here is Henry Willis. He's a good friend of ours (was a groomsman and is a godfather for us). He used to manage Wilderness Equipment. Henry recently became the WA and NT stockist. He's a very nice guy, easy to chat to.
His phone number is 0424733008.
cheers,
Serena (SJ) (am copying this PM to you here on the board as you can't receive PM's yet, apologies to others for stockist promotion).

[73Robbo]

On the road to recovery following a bout of ITBS and added in a little barefoot session on the treadmill the other day which I enjoyed.  Not doing too much though as I'm still recovering from some achilles trouble - likely I'll just walk until I've got some confidence back.  Lots of stretching and patience (which was taught to me by my ITB).  I have to say that since posting originally and trying some midfoot striking in my mara build up, I did bugger up my right achilles/soleus junction and I've steered clear of midfoot for a good few months now.  I was also doing speedwork and increasing mileage so not a controlled experiment by any means.

Got gait analysis with the pod on Saturday so it'll be interesting to hear his views on barefoot as part of strengthening phase of rehab for a pronator.  My physio didn't have much nice to say about midfoot striking.  I videoed myself the other day and thought that running in my stability shoes didn't reduce pronation much from barefoot (but did reduce pronation vs a neutral shoe even midfoot striking).  Let's see what the expert thinks.

Anyway, got some shiny new Sprints winging their way to me from deepest darkest Oz (Sydney I think) thanks to Max72, after a good few months dithering on my part.  I could have got a little cheaper from US on line but given the choice between giving a septic my money and giving it to an Ozzie, I preferred the latter...just     Notice he's got KSOs and Flows in stock too if you need to keep you're toes toasty warm.  Not affiliated in any way.

[phYx]

slowmo, on Jul 23 2008, 09:09 PM, said:

I like the way you think phYx

slowmo

Great feet think alike.

Incidentally, last night I participated in a study run by some podiatry students. They said my feet were textbook normal. I wonder if they would have been considered so normal if I was still wearing shoes all the time and in immense pain.

[rubberchicken]

sjnathan, on Jul 23 2008, 07:17 PM, said:

Hi rubberchicken,
the guy you want here is Henry Willis. He's a good friend of ours (was a groomsman and is a godfather for us). He used to manage Wilderness Equipment. Henry recently became the WA and NT stockist. He's a very nice guy, easy to chat to.
His phone number is 0424733008.
cheers,
Serena (SJ) (am copying this PM to you here on the board as you can't receive PM's yet, apologies to others for stockist promotion).

Thanks for that SJ. Honestly my plan was to just start calling random running and outdoor shops and hope for the best. This saves me a lot of mucking around.

Also are PM's something you have access to after a certain amount of posts or do I have to unlock something? May take me a little while to figure out how this board works...

[slowmo]

rubberchicken, on Jul 24 2008, 09:54 AM, said:

Also are PM's something you have access to after a certain amount of posts or do I have to unlock something? May take me a little while to figure out how this board works...

I think it's five at the moment, so if you reply to me you'll be there

slowmo

[rubberchicken]

slowmo, on Jul 24 2008, 08:02 AM, said:

I think it's five at the moment, so if you reply to me you'll be there

slowmo

Ah I see, cheers.

On a side note the calves are pretty tender today but I kinda dig the feeling. I guess I only ran about 2.5 to 3 km total yesterday with a bit of a go on a concrete running track. Hanging out to go again but I am on 12 hour day shift so that will stop me going overboard. I am looking forward to getting the barefoot endurance up and also to owning a stellar set of calves

[Rudolf]

the calves transition issue just confirms that calves are not used or not used properly while running in the high tech shoes, at least not by slower runners.

elite runners in racers of course run very likely correctly otherwise would not absorb the 200+km weeks and have no ability to run the speed they are running.


the function of the calve muscle is not to initiate the momentum and teh speed, but to absorb the the shock and teh stride force of the touch down, the beginner starting in high cushioned shoes is never forced to use teh calves for cushioning so runs without them, they are only there as additional weight, (might as well use the akle weights and leave the calves at home).

Of course the correctly working calves would absorb and than return the energy,
the shoes manufacturers are selling us the technology absorbing and returning the energy, hence so many various technologies, air bubles etc, special materials, they would build little coil spring in if they are allowed.

[slowmo]

Rudolf, on Jul 24 2008, 10:38 AM, said:

the calves transition issue just confirms that calves are not used or not used properly while running in the high tech shoes, at least not by slower runners.

Based on my own experience, and as a very slow runner, I definitely agree Rudolf.  I also remember Tim saying that his heels were mostly off the ground when beginning barefoot / five fingers running but after a while his heels started to contact the ground indicating lengthening of the muscles and/or tendon.

slowmo

Edited by slowmo, 24 July 2008 - 12:21 PM.

[errorfilenotfound]

I think you can drop "high tech". the issue with calves is that they are not used to having the heel on the ground (stretches achilles/calf). Even having a low tech shoe (but with a heel) will do the same as a high tech shoe (with a heel).

Some shoes have a low heel, eg kt26 which are more barefeet like, and others have a high heel. You would expect more calf/achilles issues with high heels than low heels ? assume females that wear high heel day shoes would have more issues also ?

Edited by soyboy, 24 July 2008 - 12:35 PM.

[littleblackpug]

soyboy, on Jul 24 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

You would expect more calf/achilles issues with high heels than low heels.

Totally the other way around for me, when I changed from built up heels and heel striking, to low heels and midfoot striking I got the calf soreness. It used the muscles in a totally different way. You hardly use your calves at all when you heel strike, and shoes with built up heels = increased heel strike.

soyboy, on Jul 24 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

assume females that wear high heel day shoes would have more issues also ?

what are high heel day shoes?

Edited by littleblackpug, 24 July 2008 - 12:34 PM.

[tim]

for me it is such a slow process but one I believe is worth while.  I have ankles and achilles that are weak and damaged so I am finding about 35km barefoot a week is about max for me but I am on a journey and in no hurry.

I now do all my non barefoot running in my nike free 3.0 (80 - 120km a week) now which is cool because a year or so ago that would have not been possible.  

Today i was running along just focused as always on a relaxed natural stride and I was just lifting my legs, leaning forward and then just letting my legs fall.  It felt very easy.  Which made me wonder if the main role of my legs were not to push me forward but to absorb the impact of each step which is what Rudolf just said.

I can't wait until the day where I don't need shoes at all or at the most five fingers for all my running.

[Rudolf]

tim, on Jul 24 2008, 12:34 PM, said:

Today i was running along just focused as always on a relaxed natural stride and I was just lifting my legs, leaning forward and then just letting my legs fall.  It felt very easy.  Which made me wonder if the main role of my legs were not to push me forward but to absorb the impact of each step which is what Rudolf just said.

Tim sorry, but not exactly.

I said the calves are not the pushoff activators, and they contribute if the biomechanics is right by absorbing and returning the energy of impact.


There were some good articles about this, comparing animals - and the kengaroos were standing out in the quality, structure flexibility and strenght of the achilles - absorbing the enourmous energy and returning it back.
The article was (I believe from memory) about running economy at various speed, and the fact that achiles was used to take the absorbtion and energy return was crucial, since it is a tendon, not a muscle, so for the tendon workload - the stretch and return, there is no metabolism involved, the tendon is not using oxygen , glucose or any other nutrients, so is not using energy at all. It is like metal spring material - no need to feed by fuel electricity etc, this was also issue with Oscar Pictorius artificial springs...

So the roo is running or multiple jumping fast high, and longer distance etc, often with the babies in teh pouch, and yet
roo does not get tired exhausted puffed because there is not used fuel and oxygen for the movement (OK to a degree not completely).


This was also an argument in Keneyan superiority, as the fact of their barefoot hilltraining - long but strong achilles with short calves muscles, the ability of achilles to absorb and return, so some significant % of their running was done by achilles tendons so energy and oxygen free, so they run effortlesly not puffing at high speeds, I do not remeber if it was estimated that it can give them 1 minute at 10km or more, or how much is it at 5000m etc...


But back to us, if the calves are unfuctional, they do not participate in energy acumulation and return with achilles, so the result is that achilles gets damaged, and that none of the free energy is used for the running speed,

So we are huffing and puffing and get tired but still are running slow.


and to get technicaly anal, I did not say legs are not used in generating the momentum, they are, it comes form their attachement to the core - so abs, back, glutes and than hams, but this is possible even  with high heels high cushioned etc shoes it will just lead to injury, so its slightly different topic.


I agree that higher the heel, bigger the prob is, and more difficult the transition is, and in the past racing flats were the only shoes available, I am old enough to remember that...
so occasionaly racing flats, frees is as far as I am willing to go, but 80% is aquasocks and Volleys,

I am also getting quite a different stimulation from barefoot trampoline running - sprint driills etc, really working the feet structure, sometimes I need few days off after such a session.

Edited by Rudolf, 24 July 2008 - 02:09 PM.

[littleblackpug]

that is correct about the Kangaroo's and their biomechanics, it's the Kinetic energy stored in tendon tissue that makes the achilles function the way it does when used correctly, such as when fore foot or mid foot striking.

Our achilles should function the same way.

Really good example of this is given by the Barefoot on Grass guy here. But you have to have a facebook account sorry!

[tim]

Rudolf, on Jul 24 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Tim sorry, but not exactly.

I was more going for a feeling then the detail.

[Rudolf]

Tim sorry, I realized, that i did not react exactly to what You saying, I was supposed to address different issue, something like :


Tim, what You describe is more like the chirunning, pose running etc, which is great for running effortlessly, no injuries, no impact, ability to run for hours, possibly ideal for ultras, funrunnig etc,


the energy used is the gravity - the falling to the front etc, but there is but, there is a limit to the speed this can achieve.


Chirunning would not get 3 min/km pace and I am not sure if it can get 4 min/km pace would be intersteing to actually have some numbers on it.

To run fast the momentum generated from the core is needed, only doing so, with some help with gravity can deliver the 3min/km pace or faster stuff on track.


The maximum efficiency of fast running pace is the right coordination of using of gravity, the core generated momentum via glutes and hams and the exact timing of the use of the absorbtion - energy return via tendons mainly achilles.

For slower running (and as I said I have no idea where the borderline pace is actualy), the effortless use of gravity only with some engagement of achiles function is ideal and possible, but the fact of not using the momentum generator so to speak, will keep this fully untrained and weak, and any attempt at the speed work, fast race  or any increase in running pace would either be not able, or very tireing or causing injury.


So anybody planning run fast in the future needs to keep this in mind and incorporate, do specific drills, strenght exercises etc, so when You are ready to speed up, You are not unprepaired begginer for it.

It is really like different type of movement or different sport activity...

Edited by Rudolf, 24 July 2008 - 02:45 PM.

[RunBare]

I've just been going running, without my shoes.  I'm enjoying it

[tim]

RunBare, on Jul 24 2008, 04:02 PM, said:

I've just been going running, without my shoes.  I'm enjoying it

now you are just being silly.

it can't be that cheap or that simple.

surely you need to buy a special hat or something.

[littleblackpug]

Love your work RunBare  

[RunBare]

tim, on Jul 24 2008, 04:06 PM, said:

it can't be that cheap or that simple.

surely you need to buy a special hat or something.

Bugger, I've been doing it all wrong!

I do like my CR hat though.  Sometimes I wear it when I run.

[Rudolf]

RunBare, on Jul 24 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

I do like my CR hat though.  Sometimes I wear it when I run.

so the hat sometimes, well now I know You fully deserve the name RunBare  

[slowmo]

I think this is the right thread for this question (?)

How do other barefoot and funny footwear runners go with steep downhill sections ?  

I find that I have to slow right down to avoid too much pounding.  I wasn't great when I wore shoes but I'm definitely slower in the sandals.  Perhaps running faster 'with the slope' would be better but I haven't had the courage to try that on steep descents.  

slowmo

[phYx]

Hey slowmo, I tend to slap my feet pretty hard on the ground when going down hill, at least it sounds like it anyway. If you don't get scared of going too fast and let your feet turn over at a high rate then it really doesn't hurt. Unless it's cold and wet then it feels like I am beating my feet against a huge block of ice.

Don't know what your grip is like but my FFs don't like mud and if it is muddy then I just try to keep my balance while I slide down

[Max72]

slowmo, on Aug 22 2008, 07:09 PM, said:

I think this is the right thread for this question (?)

How do other barefoot and funny footwear runners go with steep downhill sections ?  

I find that I have to slow right down to avoid too much pounding.  I wasn't great when I wore shoes but I'm definitely slower in the sandals.  Perhaps running faster 'with the slope' would be better but I haven't had the courage to try that on steep descents.  

slowmo

I run in Fivefingers and steep downhill is definately the most challenging on good running form, the temptation is to lean back, but that leads to heel striking/foot slapping which will hurt heels now and shins later.

I try to keep upright (which relative to the gradient is still effectively leaning forward) keep the knees soft and focus on fast lifts of the feet. As soon as my cadence is overtaken by my momentum, I loose control and start to "slap" my feet.
I think because barefoot runners are often forefoot strikers who naturally adopt a forward lean we sometimes overlean going downhill which then becomes a leanback as we pick up too much speed. I try to check my lean from the start.

Keeping the knees bent and soft is also downhill mantra for me.