22 replies to this topic

[snorkelman]

Taken from a training program that some of the top Kenyans are currently doing.

Marathon Speed Endurance

5x5km in just under 15 minutes alternated in with 1km in 3:40
or
7x3km in 8:45 with a recovery of 600m in 2:30 to 3:00


10,000m Speed Endurance

4x2km in 5:25 + 1km in 2:35 with 4min recovery jog
or
3x3km in 8:20 with recovery of 4mins + 10x600m in 1:33 with recovery of 1min

Discuss!  Like? Dislike? Too Hard? Too Soft!!! Sounds Awesome!

[DontStop]

Growing up and living your whole life at altitude...

Running every day since you were able to walk...

Having huge depth at the elite and sub-elite level...

Means these guys can smash it in training, leave a lot of talented guys injured and burnt out by the wayside, and still produce enough world-class runners to completely dominate the world scene.

And, obviously, survive regular workouts like this.

They're awesome sessions. And give a bit of an insight into the gap that exists between the East Africans, and the rest (to the detriment of the global distance running scene).

Edited by DontStop, 26 February 2011 - 08:54 AM.

[jpol3692]

if I could even do 1 5k rep in 15m, I would be ecstatic.

Edited by jpol3692, 26 February 2011 - 10:26 AM.

[johnnyboyrun]

snorkelman, on 25 February 2011 - 10:07 PM, said:

Taken from a training program that some of the top Kenyans are currently doing.

Marathon Speed Endurance

5x5km in just under 15 minutes alternated in with 1km in 3:40
or
7x3km in 8:45 with a recovery of 600m in 2:30 to 3:00


10,000m Speed Endurance

4x2km in 5:25 + 1km in 2:35 with 4min recovery jog
or
3x3km in 8:20 with recovery of 4mins + 10x600m in 1:33 with recovery of 1min


Discuss!  Like? Dislike? Too Hard? Too Soft!!! Sounds Awesome!

Those time are mind blowing for me and 99.99% of runners! wow!!Apart form that i do like the fact that most of the recoveries are done at a reasonable pace too, thus combining speed and endurance. Would be handy for a lunch hour smash fest or for those who are a bit time poor.(all of us)

[moby]

The Canova training has been discussed a few times.  I personally find it fascinating.

This is a quote of his:

Quote

I think that the system in marathon of many years ago was not correct. Because in marathon, the philosophy is very simple: the final goal.
If I want an athlete to run fast, first I have to decide what is fast for him — maybe 2:10, maybe 2:08, maybe 2:06. I decide the speed of the marathon — maybe 3:10 [per kilometre], 3:08, 3:00. I have to reduce the consumption of fuel at that speed. This is very simple. How is possible to improve this type of specific resistance? Not running three hours or four hours at 4:00 per kilometre. Because in this case, you use only fatty acids. Not running just 40 or 50 minutes when you run very fast, because in this case, you continue to use the glycolytic system, and we must reduce the percentage of sugars, of carbohydrates at the same speed for lasting more. This is the final goal.
So, for example, if I bring an athlete to run four times 5,000 meters in 15:00, recovering one kilometer in 3:30, what is better for marathon is not when he is able to run four times in 14:45, but when he's able to run four times in 15:00 with less recovery, or five times. I have to maintain the speed for building this type of marathon; at that speed I try to last more. So the specificity of the marathon is a specificity of extension. Too many people think they can run a faster marathon by running faster in short distance. That is a big mistake, because when you go, for example, running 20 times 400 meters, you use the glycolytic system, not the other system.

His focus is on extending the distance that a runner can run at race pace.  So early in a marathon training program you might include 4 x 3km at MP with 1km recovery within a long run.  Then you might move to 3 x 4km, then 5 x 3km, 4 x 4km, etc etc.  The aim is to increase the amount done at race pace.  The 1km recoveries are done at a pace about 1.2 x MP in secs (eg 180sec x 1.2 = 216). I remember that last year someone on Coolrunning developed a spreadsheet that calculated the paces for you based on your own marathon goal time.

I've attached a copy of a training log of one of his female marathon runners.

Finally, a lot of this first came to notice when Ronaldo da Costa broke the world record in 1998.  There is a 1999 article about his training approach here.

Attached Files

•  Lydia Cheromei (last 10 weeks of training before marathon).doc   147.5K   77 downloads

[iRonnie]

Quote

Taken from a training program that some of the top Kenyans are currently doing.
Marathon Speed Endurance
5x5km in just under 15 minutes alternated in with 1km in 3:40
or
7x3km in 8:45 with a recovery of 600m in 2:30 to 3:00
10,000m Speed Endurance

4x2km in 5:25 + 1km in 2:35 with 4min recovery jog
or
3x3km in 8:20 with recovery of 4mins + 10x600m in 1:33 with recovery of 1min


Discuss! Like? Dislike? Too Hard? Too Soft!!! Sounds Awesome!

There is probably only a handful of people in Aussie who could do that session at that pace.  However, I think runners of all levels could do these sessions at their level.  For instance:  A three- hour marathoner runner could do 5x5k in 21:18 alternated with one k in 5 minutes.


I used to do 3x6k session at my marathon pace and it really increased my aerobic capacity and also --through a different process - lifted my anearobic threshold.  So much so that i, for me at my level, could run a decent 10000m.  Probably even better then when I was racing track every Saturday.

The Kenyan session is certainly not an easy session and done alone would be really, really, really hard.   Probably just as hard for the Kenyans even with a  "huge depth of elite and sub-elites around you."  Company and motivation would help regardess of level.  (There are sub-elite Kenyans?)

Don't Stop: Permit me some lounge- chair criticism here.  I think the reasons you give for Kenyan excellence can be  the excuses of the rest of the world.  I agree with the risks are high but as Einstein said: The best fruit is always further out on the branch."  These guys (The Kenyans) aren't in the game to f**k around.   I think a lot of their success is in their attitude.  

Quote

Too soft!!!

  

Quote

Sounds awesome!!

[Supersam1979]

I hate to be a stickler, but not all Kenyans can run at olympic Standard and indeed it is also false to assume that the top ones have run since birth and had to walk to school for miles etc etc.

Noakes points out that most of Kenya's medals at Olympic and World Championships have been won by the Kisii and Kalejin tribes and more so those from the Nandi area. History has shown that (Noakes pg406) that a member of the Nandi tribe has a 23 fold higher chance of attaining athletic success than people from other tribes in the country. Further more a child born into the Nandi has a 3000 percent greater chance of winning an Olympic medal of any colour at 800m upwards than does a child born into the west.

Paul Tergat mentioned that his school was 800m from where he grew up. In fact he says he was pants at running at school and hated it. It was only in the army that he learned he had some talent for it and started to train more effectively.

A few years ago I had the pleasure of running with Julius Maritrim (the Sydney marathon champ) the day after the marathon. We got chatting (he is a great chap and likes a laugh) and he pointed out that in Australia so many people seem locked into themselves when they run and they just sometimes look so downright miserable. 'If you say hello, they don't answer or even ask how your run is' he said. He said the difference was in the attitude and lack of smiling and laughing. Laugh, smile and enjoy a sport more and you are likely to continue. He said first rule is always always enjoyment no matter what. When you no longer find joy in the run (even at the highest level), then time to take a break or retire.

[DontStop]

iRonnie, on 26 February 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

(There are sub-elite Kenyans?)

Don't Stop: Permit me some lounge- chair criticism here.  I think the reasons you give for Kenyan excellence can be  the excuses of the rest of the world.  I agree with the risks are high but as Einstein said: The best fruit is always further out on the branch."  These guys (The Kenyans) aren't in the game to f**k around.   I think a lot of their success is in their attitude.  


  

Sure there are sub-elite Kenyans. That bloke who won last year's MM in 2.11 wouldn't even make their top 50 marathon prospects at the moment.

I know I generalised a lot there. Natural advantages must exist though, or you wouldn't have the freakish instance of two tribes from one small part of one country of one continent making up more than half the top marathon performances worldwide every year.

But natural advantages have a way of encouraging people to have a crack. When more people have a crack, more succeed. And the more that succeed, the more people from their area think that THEY can succeed. And then you get a self-sustaining cycle of excellence. It's not one, it's not the other, it's both. And everything.

[MrD]

DontStop, on 26 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

But natural advantages have a way of encouraging people to have a crack. When more people have a crack, more succeed. And the more that succeed, the more people from their area think that THEY can succeed. And then you get a self-sustaining cycle of excellence. It's not one, it's not the other, it's both. And everything.

Spot on Don't Stop.

The title of the thread is misleading. These type of sessions aren't exclusive to Kenyans. Anybody can do them if they have the depth of runners that build up to this level over many years.

I encourage everybody who aspires to better themselves in running to join a running club. I can assure you that once you have 3 or 4 people around you to train with regularly you rise to the challenge and raise the bar together.

Edited by MrD, 26 February 2011 - 08:12 PM.

[lactatehead]

Supersam1979, on 26 February 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

A few years ago I had the pleasure of running with Julius Maritrim (the Sydney marathon champ) the day after the marathon. We got chatting (he is a great chap and likes a laugh) and he pointed out that in Australia so many people seem locked into themselves when they run and they just sometimes look so downright miserable. 'If you say hello, they don't answer or even ask how your run is' he said. He said the difference was in the attitude and lack of smiling and laughing. Laugh, smile and enjoy a sport more and you are likely to continue. He said first rule is always always enjoyment no matter what. When you no longer find joy in the run (even at the highest level), then time to take a break or retire.

I used to tag on to a group of kenyans doing their morning runs in Teddington (UK). They were all really friendly but used to find it odd that western runners were always trying to analise their success as if there was some special advantage that they all had. I am sure that some of those factors like altitude and diet make a difference but the biggest thing is their mental toughness. I believe their hardiness is probably similar to how the british, aussies and kiwis were 50 years ago.
Nowdays you hear people saying that you could only be an elite runner if you were a paid full time athlete with sponsers etc.
That sounds like nonsense to me, when I think back to runners I used to admire in the 1980s and early 90s like Peter Elliot who worked full time in a factory as a turner and then used to regulaly run 1.43 for 800m. Then there was John Downes (I think) who was an irish labourer who travelled around the country working on the roads all year round, yet still managed to win the english cross country champs.

Edited by lactatehead, 27 February 2011 - 02:25 PM.

[Supersam1979]

lactatehead, on 27 February 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

I used to tag on to a group of kenyans doing their morning runs in Teddington (UK). They were all really friendly but used to find it odd that western runners were always trying to analise their success as if there was some special advantage that they all had. I am sure that some of those factors like altitude and diet make a difference but the biggest thing is their mental toughness. I believe their hardiness is probably similar to how the british, aussies and kiwis were 50 years ago.
Nowdays you hear people saying that you could only be an elite runner if you were a paid full time athlete with sponsers etc.
That sounds like nonsense to me, when I think back to runners I used to admire in the 1980s and early 90s like Peter Elliot who worked full time in a factory as a turner and then used to regulaly run 1.43 for 800m. Then there was John Downes (I think) who was an irish labourer who travelled around the country working on the roads all year round, yet still managed to win the english cross country champs.

I could not agree more. As westerners we are going soft in our cushy office jobs etc. Many have said that it is more to do with attitude than altitude.

[iRonnie]

DontStop, on 26 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Sure there are sub-elite Kenyans. That bloke who won last year's MM in 2.11 wouldn't even make their top 50 marathon prospects at the moment.

I know I generalised a lot there. Natural advantages must exist though, or you wouldn't have the freakish instance of two tribes from one small part of one country of one continent making up more than half the top marathon performances worldwide every year.

But natural advantages have a way of encouraging people to have a crack. When more people have a crack, more succeed. And the more that succeed, the more people from their area think that THEY can succeed. And then you get a self-sustaining cycle of excellence. It's not one, it's not the other, it's both. And everything.

Yeah.  However, this begs the question as to why the USA college system isn't producing top-level athletes  (Natural advantage - yeah in part). There are some pretty talented kids in the US who come to nought.  I thnk it is not only about attitude (and everything) but also about incentive.  The Kenyans have a cycle of poverty that must motivate some -probably most of their runners to seriously consider having a crack.  The USA college kids have more options available to them to be successful in other areas.  Who can afford to be left behind financially or career- wise  in the land of status anxiety where personal wealth is the measure of succes?.  

In Austtralia where is the incentive for  talented runnes to test their potential?   I mean the club system is great but I think for elites to do well  they need incentives and not only that so do the sub elites.  The more sub elites testing themselves  against the very best chances are - the better all will get.  The best incentive is status but the status of our sport is not enough to hold runners or offer financial reward for effort.

Quote

I encourage everybody who aspires to better themselves in running to join a running club. I can assure you that once you have 3 or 4 people around you to train with regularly you rise to the challenge and raise the bar together.

other
I do agree with this for  runners generally.   The trouble is there are so few elites or sub elites in Australia (as DS noted).   I heard the other day that Micheal Shelley was cracking out a 38k session that I reckon would bring tears to the eyes of  us mere mortals just thinking about it  and perhaps even make the Kenyans wince a bit.  His only company was a mate on a bike.
His main incentive....? To be the best he can be...? Perhaps even an Olympian....?  His reward for such attitude and effort.....  ? I guess there are risks guys and girls must be prepared to take if they want to have a crack.

Some Nations' runners escape poverty through using their talents while other Nations' runners risk poverty and hardship.

Edited by iRonnie, 27 February 2011 - 04:00 PM.

[dave1678]

DontStop, on 26 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

But natural advantages have a way of encouraging people to have a crack. When more people have a crack, more succeed. And the more that succeed, the more people from their area think that THEY can succeed. And then you get a self-sustaining cycle of excellence. It's not one, it's not the other, it's both. And everything.

I mentioned something very similar to this on an Ultra-running forum.

I also mention the Aussie domination of middle distance in the 50's & 60's (Landy, Elliot, Clark) being a motivation for Aussie runners when I do sports Psychology talks to school kids. Craig Mottram is turning our doldrums around with his international success and you can now see a new generation of Athletes coming through not thinking distance running is an African sport.

[DontStop]

Ronnie makes a good point:

For an East African, devoting yourself to becoming an elite distance runner is a way out of financial hardship.

For an Australian, it's a way into financial hardship.

Still. As lactatehead says, guys like Steve Jones could train to run a 2.07 marathon while working full-time, so it can be done.

But (and dave picked up on this) it's important that the next generation has role models they can relate to. It's pretty hard for a 16 year old Aussie to use an elite Ethiopian guy as his role-model... so very hard to relate to someone whose upbringing and journey is so different to yours.

[snorkelman]

Something interesting discussion points to my post.

The sessions were posted by the Italian coach Renato Canova, on another running site, who's in Kenya coaching several athletes.  My understanding is that his group does this sort of training.

I simply found the sessions incredible to ponder.  Thought it was worth sharing.

[johnnyboyrun]

snorkelman, on 28 February 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Something interesting discussion points to my post.

The sessions were posted by the Italian coach Renato Canova, on another running site, who's in Kenya coaching several athletes.  My understanding is that his group does this sort of training.

I simply found the sessions incredible to ponder.  Thought it was worth sharing.

Thanks snorkleman. The sessions are nothing new. I just find the times hard to get my head around!

[snorkelman]

Oh I forgot to mention those times are just below race pace so I extrapolated them out to my times in Excel and decided it would probably be the dumbest workout I could ever do - if I survived!

[MiddleChild]

DontStop, on 27 February 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

For an East African, devoting yourself to becoming an elite distance runner is a way out of financial hardship.

It's the basis for one of my favourite sporting jokes.

Why do white guys love triathlons?

Because Kenyans can't afford $10,000 racing bikes!

[Tiddischer]

Have you ever seen a Kenyan swimmer?

You don't need expensive equipment for that.

[rohan]

Tiddischer, on 24 May 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

Have you ever seen a Kenyan swimmer?

You don't need expensive equipment for that.

umm...  a pool? gee they don't cost much!

yeah, sure you can use a river/lake/sea... so long as there are no large predators in them and the water is sufficiently clean.  (those two factors just reduced the 'pool' of available training venues, by a fair bit.)

[DontStop]

When people rave about Michael Phelps, I always say that he's clearly the best person on Earth to have ever learned how to swim.

That's a bit different to a Keninisa Bikele, who can lay claim to be the best person on Earth to have ever run. Fair bit more competition for runners.

[mopak]

Moses Mosop training leading up to Boston this year.

Jan.1. 15k easy.1hr
    2. 25k mod. 1h32m
    3. 25m warmup (5k) then 38k 3.24 ave. running 4x5k (16.48-17.02)with 1k rec (3.55-4.02) then finished off with 15k in 49.44.
    also 40m easy (9k)2d run.
    4. 19k easy. 1h20m.
       2d run of 9k easy in 40m.
    5. 14k easy 1hr
       2d run of 12k easy in 50m.
    6. 25m warmup (5k) then 2 sets of 10x400m 60-62s 1m rec 4m b/w sets.
        2d run of 9k in 40m.
    7. 1hr mod. 15.5k
       2d run also 1hr 15.5k.

Some other sessions in the buildup.

    11. 38k with 20k @ 3.42 pace and 18k @ 3.20 pace.

    15. 5x3k 8.26-8.41
    
    19. 8x1k 2.40-47 plus 10x600m 1.32-36.

    22. 45k in 2.29 last 10k in 31.47.

    28. "Block"
        20m warmup then 1k/2k/3k/4k/3k. 2.45/5.48/8.52/11.46/8.56 3m. rec.
        2d run 15m warmup then 4x2k 6.25-38 plus 2x1k 3.13 and 3.37 then 10k in 36.49.

Feb 1. "Block"
        15m. warmup then 10k in 33.44 then 12k in 36.53.
        2d run 15m warmup then 10k in 31.20 (last 5k 14.59 uphill).

     12. 30k @3.08 average.

     23. 25m warmup (5k) then 27k 3.09 ave. with 4x5k (14.51-15.30) with 1k rec (3.48-4.02) plus 3k in 9.09.
      Also 2d run of 11k in 50m.

      26. 10x1200m 3.16 with 3m rec.

March 1. "Block"
        2x10k in 32.39 and 32.04 5m rec.
      2d run 10k in 32.24 5m rec then 6k in 17.54.

       6. Half Marathon 1.01.47 for 2d place.

       18. 40k with 10k splits of 33.05/31.33/31.46/30.51.

       24. 10x1600m 4.30-40 last one in 4.17.

       28. 31k as 8x3k with 1k rec. (overall ave 3.10 pace) 9.36/3.45/8.39/3.25/8.57/3.31/8.56/3.31/9.01/3.41/9.08/3.30/9.23/4.01/9/08. Undulating course.

April 1. 25km @ave 3.03 pace.

      5. 24km @ave 3.05 pace as alternating kms ave 2.51 on the fast ones and 3.20 on the "slow" ones.
      
Mosop averaged 2.54 per km pace for the Boston Marathon . He has a 26.46 10000m time to his credit.

[GoldCoastRunner]

Hmmm.....Makes you want to cry!!!
OR
Throw your shoes in the bin
OR
Get out there and train hard.



(i went with cry)