162 replies to this topic

[Colsy]

Jimboy, on Aug 21 2008, 07:34 AM, said:

Get over it you blokes.A crap run from Mottram.He is a good runner,not a great one in current terms.His ignorance/ arrogance is outstanding if he really did not know the time he had to run to qualify.What a dope.

I agree with that, his comments after the race left me feeling I had been watching the wrong man for the last 14 minutes.

[Sparkie]

It's all been said, so I won't add anything about Mottram's unprofessional approach to the race.  I doubt he would have been a factor in the final anyway.

Those whinging about the coverage need to get over it.  Softball semi-final, Basketball quarter-final, running heat.  Guess what is going to get pushed back!  The Olympics is about more than running.  The carry-on here is quite embarrassing...

[NthCurlySurfer]

Lack of ticker - plain & simple.

[Phoenix]

FRom the SMH:

"I felt good actually, believe it or not," Mottram said. "I felt good for 10 and half laps, 11 and half laps, it was actually my turn to go with 500m to go but the Qatari beat me to it and I thought oh this is good I'll just follow him, after 50-60 metres I couldn't go anymore. I don't why I just wasn't good enough."

[undercover brother]

Sparkie, on Aug 21 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

... unprofessional ...

i think thats the key word right there.
enough said.

[Colin]

DrJH, on Aug 21 2008, 06:33 AM, said:

Mottram is a better 1500/miler than 2 of the blokes ahead of him, but similar 5k form. A slow race with a kick should have suited him, so I think he was right in just aiming for the top 4. Whatever the reason he didn't have it. As he said, on that form he wasn't going to make an impact in the final anyway.

Typo there DrJH...surely you meant tactics.   It was tactics here and tactics in Osaka that brought him undone.

With all due respect, better miler or not off a fresh start, he has never done a good last 4 laps after 8.5 laps in a 5000m at a championship when it mattered. Wouldn't that be reason to adopt better tactics?
Quite a big difference in a fast mile at end of 5000 than a stand alone mile as you would know, and the training would be different too. He's a better miler than Bekele for example...do you think Bekele would have finished behind him. Even the bloke with the pot belly down the road knew that Bekele would sit back after his 10km and that Lagat would be back.
Mottram ran his best times off steady splits not sit and kick.

Sparkie, on Aug 21 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

The Olympics is about more than running.  The carry-on here is quite embarrassing...

Yes...the 5,000m to all intents and purposes was 'live' to me since I didn't know the result. We often watch things on delay ourselves and don't winge.
I'd have a bigger winge about missing some other heats such as 800's and the other 5's entirely...another channel could have been given that.

Edited by Colin, 21 August 2008 - 08:31 AM.

[Tilly]

I went to bed early last night as knew I wouldn't stay awake for a 10.55pm heat. (Complete Nanna!)

Woke up this morning expecting news coverage of the result...and no mention of it...assumed that Mottram had made it.

Had to drive to work and jump on CRs before I found out Mottram's fate!

So disappointing! I really feel for him but he seems to have run someone else's race instead of his own.

I wonder if he will now consider a new coach based on 2 poor performances in Osaka and now Beijing.

Hopefully he'll use this to fuel future campaigns.

Unfortuantely he has to wait another 4 years before he gets a shot at an Olympic medal. That would be tough!

[sook54]

I wonder whether the heat (temperature) was a factor - he looked like he was suffering even in the 3rd Km with his cheeks bright red. I suppose his coach would have made sure he prepared for that though.

[nando]

A great effort from Collis Birmingham.  Just about matched Mottram's time, and only a couple of seconds from qualifying.

[MichelleL]

I am so disappointed that Mottram didnt make the final, I recorded the running as I was waiting up for the heat but the softball etc went over time. First thing this morning I watched the race, like someone else said I was looking forward to this more than most other events.  I thought Mottram's comments at the end of the race didnt make alot of sense, I understand backing your ability but surely he would have known what time he had to run to qualify if he didnt make the top four.  

[FakePlasticTrees]

Sparkie, on Aug 21 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

It's all been said, so I won't add anything about Mottram's unprofessional approach to the race.  I doubt he would have been a factor in the final anyway.

Those whinging about the coverage need to get over it.  Softball semi-final, Basketball quarter-final, running heat.  Guess what is going to get pushed back!  The Olympics is about more than running.  The carry-on here is quite embarrassing...

Embarrassing? Fairly condescending comment there sparkie. People are angry that despite watching every piece of swimming live for a week we don't get to see what should have been a aussie contender going through to a final. Instead we got a couple of hours of basketball against a team we were never going to beat.

I'm angry that every laymen on CR knew (before the race) what Mottram needed to do in his heat but he apparently didn't. I could have just gone to sleep and not waited the extra hour or more until they showed the heat.

[JR1500]

I think his tactics were extremely bad but he has won alot of  races with that arrogance and self belief  that he is better than everyone in the race and he can win, no doubt drilled into him by  bideau.
        The event mottram should be in if he wants to win a olympic medal and what i think could be a gold medal is the steeple.  He is tall, storng build for a distance runner who's best event is the 3000 flat. Use the formula of your 3km time plus 30 secs and he is running 8:02 thats is one of the top times if not the top time this year.  Not to mention he is alot better athlete than abdi and he came 6th.

[Rudolf]

talking buster tactic - supose You are thinking only final :

OK so I am in heat with Bekele and Lagat, how to make them weaker for teh final ?

Bekele has 10km in his legs, Lagat also has some 1500m.

So lets push teh pace and try for australian record along the way.
Forcing the pace under 13 min, would further build in Bekeles legs and make Lagat tired as well.

Buster was the fresh one comming to the heats, so he should have caused some damage before final.

Letting Bekele to jog around was not a good tactic before final, regardless if Buster did made it or not.

Seems to me that australian culture in distrance running is to let others dictate the pace and be dependant on tactical games with milion and 1 excusses how the pace was and how the race was run.

It is the distance and it is my ability to run it fastetst I can so I dictate my pace and the splits.

Edited by Rudolf, 21 August 2008 - 10:43 AM.

[lavenderlilly]

I too stayed up late last night and let my 14yo son watch it as well...
We were both so dissapointed...

No interval training for me today, I'm too tired, will do 11k easy instead & clear my head.

Agree 100% with Rudolf!

[superflake]

For the 1st 2k they were level pegging with heat 1 on split times.
Heat 1:
2:45
5:31
8:19
11:08
13:37 finish.

Heat 3:
2:44
5:31
8:24
11:15
13:39.

They basically had a picnic for 7 laps.

I agree with Steve Ovett that Mottram should have forced the pace early to string the field out so he couldn't be out kicked in the last 2 laps.

[Tom31]

To lose 5 seconds over the last 600m showed he just doesn't have the form.  It appeared to me as though he felt it wasn't appropriate for him to be chasing the qualifying time as that would have shown that he didn't have the confidence to finish in the top 4.  You just can't have that attitude with the quality of field he was running against.  Also thought that his statement in his interview that he didn't know James Kwalia was a bit strange - the bloke has a PB over 5km better than Mottram's.

Sparkie, on Aug 21 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

Those whinging about the coverage need to get over it.  Softball semi-final, Basketball quarter-final, running heat.  Guess what is going to get pushed back!  The Olympics is about more than running.  The carry-on here is quite embarrassing...

Surprised by this from you Sparkie.  The Olympics is more than just running, but it's certainly not about a game nobody gives any notice to at any other time played at a standard far below properly represented sports.

[moby]

My feeling is that the only really good results he has had have come off making it a fast race. Although he didn’t win, the Comm Games was a great run and to not win but run under 13mins I have huge respect for that because he gave himself the best chance.  The jogging around and going hard for the last 400m has only worked when he is clearly the best athlete in the field and that is not the case in big events.

If you really look at the 2005 world champs bronze medal, he only finished third because Kipchoge slowed right up when he would clearly have finished third whereas Buster ran hard to the line.  Obviously he did the right thing and deserved the medal, but if Kipchoge had run to the line Mottram would never have got it.  He ran reasonably well in that race but when if came to it Limo, Sihine and Kipchoge were able to clearly and easily put him away.

I’m sure you try to get through a heat as easily as possible, particularly given the conditions, but to not make certain it was the fastest heat ensure moving through was, as many have mentioned, unforgivably stupid.

[Reddog]

Phoenix, on Aug 21 2008, 07:21 AM, said:

There's always London.

There is also 10k, Half Marathon and Marathon, Mottram has been quoted that he wants Australian records for all these distances, is it time to step up???

[Tiger Boy]

Is he arrogant or just dumb?
In a 15 man race, he had a 4/15 chance of making the final, but he said he "knew" bekele and Lagat would be in the final, so he has conceded 2 spots, and he is only 2/13 for the final. Didn't he thnik any of the other dozen athletes wanted to get through either?
He should have known what time was needed to qualify, I can't really believe he didn't, so if the thought of getting top 4 was looking a bit dicey, he should have at least ran for a qualifying time.
Are we being too harsh? Maybe we over rate just how good he is. After falling short of expectations in Beijing, Osaka and Melbourne (1 sliver medal from 4 events), you have to wonder if that is the case.

[NthCurlySurfer]

lets put it this way - Mottram ran an average of 2.45 per km approx in last nights 5km and Martin Dent ran an average of 2.56 per km approx on his way to winning the City to Surf - bear in mind one had to do HBH and go over 14k's and cut the breeze over a significant distance and the other was on a mondo track at the Olympics, mmmmmm

[Tilly]

Have I mentioned that I am disappointed that Mottram didn't make the final??!!!

Can't believe it!

I think I need to get over it...keep checking CRs hoping the result will somehow change!!

[Eagle]

Tiger Boy, on Aug 21 2008, 11:45 AM, said:

Is he arrogant or just dumb?

Are we being too harsh? Maybe we over rate just how good he is. After falling short of expectations in Beijing, Osaka and Melbourne (1 sliver medal from 4 events), you have to wonder if that is the case.

I am not sure about the answer first question.

In regard to the second his present reputation is based on results that are geeting a bit old. I think by his present performances he is providing the evidence to draw the conclusion that he is not fullfilling the exptation that he gave us in the past.

He will need to do something soon otherwise he will be just a good runner who had a high in the past but was not able to repeat or sustain it.

[Sparkie]

Quote

Surprised by this from you Sparkie. The Olympics is more than just running, but it's certainly not about a game nobody gives any notice to at any other time played at a standard far below properly represented sports.

If you look at the number of active participants in softball, you will find it is several times the size of the number of active participants in running.  Don't have exact comparable numbers, but at worst it is probably five times as large (and more likely 10+ - 34,000 was the quoted number for running, 250,000 for softball).    

So to assume that a heat in athletics is of more interest to the general public (which is who free-to-air television cater to) than a medal match featuring Australia in a sport with very high participation rates is naive at best.  For the many softball fans out there, this is their only opportunity to see their sport on the big stage.

Had they cut from the softball (which was at a very tense stage) to the race, my sister would have been furious.  I am not sure what gives the people on this forum greater cause for outrage?

I think that Seven made the right decision, despite the fact that I think softball is a naff game to watch.  This, however, doesn't negate my general disappointment with Seven's coverage.

Quote

played at a standard far below properly represented sports

The girls performed better than Risley, Renshaw, Mottram and co...

[Rudolf]

Buster beaten by teletubbies - the world is going to end  

[Trackie]

Sparkie, on Aug 21 2008, 01:22 PM, said:

If you look at the number of active participants in softball, you will find it is several times the size of the number of active participants in running.  Don't have exact comparable numbers, but at worst it is probably five times as large (and more likely 10+ - 34,000 was the quoted number for running, 250,000 for softball).

So how many ACTIVE participants are there in swimming and gymnastics, the two most fully televised sports?

[Kanser]

Shocked and disappointed by Mottram's run last night. Can't believe a token Irishman qualified for the final . Nah seriously Mottram ran very poorly and was tactically naive. In saying that he was never going to be a factor in the final. His prep was obviously not up to the standard required to compete at this level. The kid has lots of talent and his sub 13 min 5k highlights that. He ran poorly last year and we were told he'd some issues with his hamstring etc and the conditions didn't suit him. Did Bideau prepare his athletes for the conditions. I think not! Johnson poor showing in the marathon is an indication of how ill prepared Bideau's guys are. The relationship has to end...Mottram should move on. Delighted to see Willis grab a bronze in the 1500m. Note Wills did not shy away from racing the 1500m in the lead up to Bejing.

[TehAxe]

Sparkie, on Aug 21 2008, 01:22 PM, said:

The girls performed better than Risley, Renshaw, Mottram and co...

most of the Aussie girls are playing in professional softball leagues including the "teletubbie" aka Natalie Titcumbe who is the catcher & one of the main sluggers.
No she isn't built for running, but I don't think we need to belittle her & her sport because of her larger physique. The girl can obviously play.

[obiwan]

can't believe they didn't show collis's race. to be less than a second off mottram's time and not that far off the leader despite the 10th position shows that maybe they should've shown that race. at least give it to sbs who actually respect athletics and don't cut from the women's steeple (raced in less than 10 minutes) to an ad. anything for a profit.

[ThunderThighs]

This was one of the events that I had marked on my tv guide to stay up & watch.  Disappointed for Buster but ditto the earlier comments about qualifying time.  Can't believe his coach wasn't all over that one.  Hope Buster comes back faster & sharper.

Ditto comments about coverage, SBS would have been better than channel 7.

[MichelleL]

obiwan, on Aug 21 2008, 02:13 PM, said:

can't believe they didn't show collis's race. to be less than a second off mottram's time and not that far off the leader despite the 10th position shows that maybe they should've shown that race. at least give it to sbs who actually respect athletics and don't cut from the women's steeple (raced in less than 10 minutes) to an ad. anything for a profit.

I agree I know they ran overtime with the softball but why not show the other heats as well, I would have liked to have seen them.  They have probably replayed it today but who knows what time???

[Peterhorse]

Can't help comparing "Stand Up Sally" attitude/tactics vs Buster. How hard she pushed just to get herself into the final. I know it's not middlle distance running but you have to be in it to win it and you never know what might happen. We'll never know what would have happened in the final had the big fella stretched out the field and really put pressure on them in that heat.

I'm still a big fan and hope he fights on. Very very disppointed it wasn't on this world stage but have had lots of great entertainment from him to date, winning or not. And congrat's Collis look forward to seeing what another 2-4 years does for the new crop as well.

As a recreational middle of the pack old fart beginner runner, i have no idea what it would be like trying to judge pace at the speed they are travelling and how easy/hard it is to instigate a change up.... Do they really run within themselves so much at that level?

[batavia]

Kanser, on Aug 21 2008, 01:43 PM, said:

Shocked and disappointed by Mottram's run last night. Can't believe a token Irishman qualified for the final .

Go Ireland !!  

Men's 5000m heats overview
  
1. Matthew Tegenkamp (U.S.)         13 minutes 37.36 seconds Q
2. Eliud Kipchoge (Kenya)                13:37.50 Q
3. Tariku Bekele (Ethiopia)              13:37.63 Q
4. Kidane Tadesse (Eritrea)              13:37.72 Q
5. Aelemayehu Bezabeh (Spain)            13:37.88 Q
6. Alistair Cragg (Ireland)              13:38.57 Q
7. Bernard Lagat (U.S.)                  13:39.70 Q
8. James Kwalia C'Kurui (Qatar)          13:39.96 Q
9. Kenenisa Bekele (Ethiopia)            13:40.13 Q
10. Thomas Pkemei Longosiwa (Kenya)       13:41.30 Q
11. Juan Luis Barrios (Mexico)            13:42.39 Q
12. Anis Selmouni (Morocco)               13:43.70
13. Craig Mottram (Australia)             13:44.39
14. Aadam Khamis (Bahrain)                13:44.76
15. Collis Birmingham (Australia)         13:44.90
16. Edwin Cheruiyot Soi (Kenya)           13:46.41 Q
17. Moses Ndiema Kipsiro (Uganda)         13:46.58 Q
18. Moukheld Al-Outaibi (Saudi Arabia)    13:47.00
19. Abreham Cherkos (Ethiopia)            13:47.60 Q
20. Jesus Espana (Spain)                  13:48.88 Q
21. Kensuke Takezawa (Japan)              13:49.42
22. Ali Abdalla (Eritrea)                 13:49.68
23. Geofrey Kusuro (Uganda)               13:50.50
24. Mohamed Farah (Britain)               13:50.95
25. Sultan Khamis Zaman (Qatar)           13:53.38
26. Monder Rizki (Belgium)                13:54.41
27. Adrian Blincoe (New Zealand)          13:55.27
28. Alberto Garcia (Spain)                13:58.20
29. Philipp Bandi (Switzerland)           13:59.68
30. Mourad Marofit (Morocco)              14:00.76

[Wedged]

One word: Disappointing.

Secondly Seven had to stick with the softball. I don't enjoy softball but you cannot leave the game at that tense stage. Anyways the races had no chance as the basketball game would have been shown before the athletics anyway. Reality I'm afraid.

[DrJH]

I can't believe the knockers! Have any of you ever run heats of a 5k? What about a fast enough 5k to be on the same lap as Mottram (even last night)? But of course you must all have intimate knowlege of the Mottram camp and his preparation! If he's going into the meet with the attitude that he can mix it with any of them (one of the few to have beaten Bekele), why wouldn't he just aim for the first 4? He wasn't there just to make the final, but to do well in the final. The way to do that is to get through with as little effort as possible. It's a gamble (ie fewer qualifiers from a slower heat), but obviously his form led him to think he was up to it. I don't think he has quite the change of pace as some of the others, and a longer drive for home would probably be the way to go in the final. However, it's pretty hard to do that in 2 races in succession. Having said that, it wouldn't have taken much to get the pace down to 13.40 odd. The problem is that by admitting to himself that he needs to push the pace to burn off the kickers is admitting a weakness.

I think the tactics were right for someone going in as a potential medalist. However, the race showed that he wasn't going to be that this time round.

[quote name='Colin' date='Aug 21 2008, 08:24 AM' post='370529']
Typo there DrJH...surely you meant tactics.   It was tactics here and tactics in Osaka that brought him undone.

With all due respect, better miler or not off a fresh start, he has never done a good last 4 laps after 8.5 laps in a 5000m at a championship when it mattered. Wouldn't that be reason to adopt better tactics?
Quite a big difference in a fast mile at end of 5000 than a stand alone mile as you would know, and the training would be different too.

I thought his problems in Osaka had been well documented. If he had pushed the pace there they would have been compounded.

I also thought his last 4 laps in Worlds, Commonwealths in 2005, 2006 were pretty solid. It's the last 200 or 300 where I have my reservations.

[Twopennys]

DrJH I respect you greatly - but Busters comment in the post race interview that he didn't even know who it was that went off the front - well frankly just plain flabbergasted me as joe sub-average when it comes to running.

Whether it is athletics, some other sport (where I'm not joe sub-average), business or tidly winks there is one basic rule - know your competition.

Cheers, 2P

Edited by Twopennys, 21 August 2008 - 07:53 PM.

[infront]

Rudolf, on Aug 20 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

talking buster tactic - supose You are thinking only final :

OK so I am in heat with Bekele and Lagat, how to make them weaker for teh final ?

Bekele has 10km in his legs, Lagat also has some 1500m.

So lets push teh pace and try for australian record along the way.
Forcing the pace under 13 min, would further build in Bekeles legs and make Lagat tired as well.

Buster was the fresh one comming to the heats, so he should have caused some damage before final.

Letting Bekele to jog around was not a good tactic before final, regardless if Buster did made it or not.

Seems to me that australian culture in distrance running is to let others dictate the pace and be dependant on tactical games with milion and 1 excusses how the pace was and how the race was run.

It is the distance and it is my ability to run it fastest I can so I dictate my pace and the splits.

I'm glad I didn't stay up to watch it.

Why is everyone so afraid to take control of the race.

I would think (this is coming from a non runner, mind you) that even in an olympic heat, i would want to say I gave it my all, and if that means I missed out on the final, so be it.

I understand the necessity of tactics in these distances, but surely with the huge experience of these world class athletes, you know if the pace is too slow, then its time to mess with their minds and dictate the race, then at least you can't say you didn't try and you can walk away with your head held high.

Why is Mottram ostracizing himself from the aussie athletes. I understand he has issues with Athletics Australia, but he could certainly get down off his personal pedestal and take some public speaking notes from our Spontaneous Super Silver Sally McLellan.

[tim]

i've thought long and hard hard about why buster did'nt qualify for the final, i think it all comes down to his winning the bronze medal at the world champs a few years back in which basically came down to a kick the last 200m of a slow pace.
buster is not a kicker,he runs best when he winds it up in a long sustained kick,that is his strength and i have not seen him do it once in a major championship,why not run the race to your strength!
the pace was that slow there was no excuse not to kick for home at least 1k out,it would'nt have sapped him for the final,it would have given him confidene.
buster is a great runner who through bad tactics has probably robbed himself of a possibe medal at these games.
tim

[DrJH]

Twopennys, on Aug 21 2008, 07:51 PM, said:

DrJH I respect you greatly - but Busters comment in the post race interview that he didn't even know who it was that went off the front - well frankly just plain flabbergasted me as joe sub-average when it comes to running.

Whether it is athletics, some other sport (where I'm not joe sub-average), business or tidly winks there is one basic rule - know your competition.

Cheers, 2P

It's hard to justify his comment. Arrogant or ignorant - neither option is terribly flattering!

One thing for sure about this sport - no matter how good you are, if you hang around long enough it will humble you eventually. I try to be positive and not too critical where I don't know all the details behind a performance. However, I think someone may start going through this 'humbling' experience over the next few years.

[AzzaTas]

i think your comments are slightly wrong.

He said he thought he'd get top 4 otherwise he wouldve made it faster, Mottram had the 3rd or 4th best time in the heat, he had outkicked them before in races, so there is no reason he couldnt do it again.
I guess he was unlucky his 2.29km was too slow against the others.....do the maths...thats a 3.45 1500m

Hopefully he can come back and smash it out.

[Colin]

DrJH, on Aug 21 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

I can't believe the knockers! Have any of you ever run heats of a 5k? What about a fast enough 5k to be on the same lap as Mottram (even last night)? ..... He wasn't there just to make the final, but to do well in the final. The way to do that is to get through with as little effort as possible. It's a gamble (ie fewer qualifiers from a slower heat), but obviously his form led him to think he was up to it. I don't think he has quite the change of pace as some of the others, and a longer drive for home would probably be the way to go in the final. However, it's pretty hard to do that in 2 races in succession. Having said that, it wouldn't have taken much to get the pace down to 13.40 odd. The problem is that by admitting to himself that he needs to push the pace to burn off the kickers is admitting a weakness.

....It's the last 200 or 300 where I have my reservations.

No I haven't done 5000 heats and I would have been lapped ....but what has that got to do with it. Somehow an attempt to silence criticism which even blind freddy could see?

You admit he hasn't got the pace change, you admit he has a weak last 300m..you know it , we all know it, he probably (we hope) knows it...but shhhh don't tell the opposition. Better to miss the final than admit this weakness.

DrJH, on Aug 21 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

I think the tactics were right for someone going in as a potential medalist. However, the race showed that he wasn't going to be that this time round.

I thought his problems in Osaka had been well documented. If he had pushed the pace there they would have been compounded.

You mean his excuses were well documented...sorry I must have missed that spin doctoring.
His tactics were wrong in Osaka and they were wrong last night.

He may have thought at the start that he could get in top 4 but as the race evolved he should have woken up. He had the least to lose (of Bekele, Lagat and himself) from a faster pace. Not 12:55 but 13:40 that was all, 3 sec faster than he ended up..not a pace that would have nullified is final chances, as you conveniently make out.
That he didn't know what that figure was anyway, shows either disdain for the competition, lack of plan B and deserving of criticism.
He ran the last heat and had the most knowledge available to him of all the non automatic qualifiers...yet you still say it was good tactics, wow
As you admit, he is slower over the last 300m... that is mutually exclusive with a 2:24 last km, work it out.   He needed to be at least 3sec, if not 5sec in front of that at 4km.

Twopennys, on Aug 21 2008, 07:51 PM, said:

DrJH I respect you greatly - but Busters comment in the post race interview that he didn't even know who it was that went off the front - well frankly just plain flabbergasted me as joe sub-average when it comes to running.

Whether it is athletics, some other sport (where I'm not joe sub-average), business or tidly winks there is one basic rule - know your competition.

Cheers, 2P

Yep, even Blue Dog , Professor and Superflake know their competition...and that is only at a Striders 10km

[wombatface]

DrJH, on Aug 21 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

I don't think he has quite the change of pace as some of the others, and a longer drive for home would probably be the way to go in the final. However, it's pretty hard to do that in 2 races in succession. Having said that, it wouldn't have taken much to get the pace down to 13.40 odd. The problem is that by admitting to himself that he needs to push the pace to burn off the kickers is admitting a weakness.

I think the tactics were right for someone going in as a potential medalist. However, the race showed that he wasn't going to be that this time round.

That's a good observation.  The Mottram camp wouldn't have liked him to have been seen to be chasing a "small q" qualifying time.  In retrospect, a quickening of the pace from 5 laps out would have burnt off enough runners to leave him in the first seven, and perhaps being able to keep up with the "big Q" qualifiers with a moderate kick.

The last 5 laps went 67.6 (14:05 pace), 70.0 (14:35 pace), 65.6, 57.3, 53.4 (for Lagat and Bekele). Kwalia who was the first to kick, ran 55.0 for the last lap while Mottram ran about 57.8. Lagat's last 1600m was about 4:06 while Mottram's was 4:11. Mottram didn't have the sharpness to kick with the others, even from 600m out.

[DrJH]

Colin, I don't know how to use the quote function, but I do know a bit about 5k running. I ask about the 5k credentials of the critics because the physical demands and mental approach are different to those required for a weekend fun run, or even 800 or 1500 heats in a state championship. Likewise I don't know much about sub 13 min 5k running. I've never even met such a runner. He backed his ability to finish well but didn't produce the goods. It appeared he was focused on a top 4 spot and not adopting the negative approach of a 'plan B' for if he wasn't good enough. Likewise with my suggestion that he may not be as quick as some of the others in a short sprint finish (less than 300m) - not necessarily 'weak' as you describe it. I was not referring to admitting a weakness to the oppositition, but rather to himself. I don't think any ideas of weakness have entered his head. Maybe that's what has made him a 12.55 runner. Maybe when he starts sizing up the opposition, working out times to qualify, feeling obliged to take the sting out of 'faster' runners, etc (like you or I would) he will become a regular finalist. He may also cease to be a medal prospect.

As far as Osaka goes, his form was bad there and afterwards. The reasons were documented (the 'spin' as you refer to it). He certainly wasn't in 12.55 shape yet you expected him to push the pace. If he had, he would have run worse than he did.

[Colin]

DrJH, on Aug 21 2008, 10:10 PM, said:

Colin, I don't know how to use the quote function, but I do know a bit about 5k running. I ask about the 5k credentials of the critics because the physical demands and mental approach are different to those required for a weekend fun run, or even 800 or 1500 heats in a state championship.

It was clear that he needed 13:42, he wasn't interested in that and got done, its bad tactics...end of story.

We also differ on the Osaka spin..again he didn't need 12:55 there either.

You also said Lagat was out of form a few days ago in 1500..I said he had bad tactics. He now appears to have found either his form or tactics... we differ on that too.

One doesn't need to have 'done' 5000m running or at that level to make an observational comment. It is really counterproductive to a constructive debate to bring the commenter's own credentials into it.

cheers

[trailblazer777]

its time I got on cool running and vented my frustrations as a spectator...
imo mottram and jamieson and corrigan made the same tactical mistakes this olympics and jamieson also did it in Osaka...they get stuck ina slow race where they get hopelessly out-kicked in the last 100-300m...when will they learn!!!?

I know its easier to say it as an armchair critic than to do it on the track and good on em huge congrats to them just for being there...but its frustrating to see them miss the final time and again, when their PB is way way better than half the people who make the final....Mottram looked absolutely so disappointed, wouldnt be surprised if he went and punched out a window or something after that...

either they have the guts and sense to go to the front early on or with 600-1000 to go, and say "catch me if you can" like that romanian women did in the marathon at 20km, or they had better start working on getting a much better kick for the last 100m-300m, if they plan to race in world championship events again...and expect to make the final...
the other thing they can go is go straight to the front from the beginning and be a frontrunner that controls the race from the beginning...

nice to see mclellan get a silver though...now there is someone who reached for the sky gave it her all, and things went her way on the day..great to see someone like that (and the other two medallists as well) geta well earned reward...despite others who were arguably better, she got it right on the day!

[YumHallucinogens]

At the 1972 Olympics, Frank Shorter ran a PB in the 10,000 m heat, another in the final, before winning the marathon. Now, perhaps his 10 k PB was a little soft (I don't think so). But at the very least, he trained in such a way that he could run 2 x 10 k and a marathon flat out in 10 days. As Hackett said at the pool, these days the 1500 m freestyle gold goes to the guy who can swim hard to reach the final, then back it up two days later in the final.

[DrJH]

Colin, I think you're being a bit simplistic in your assessment of Mottram's performance. It's pretty hard for me to argue that he did the right thing, after all, the proof is in the pudding - he missed the final. However, maybe by illustrating what I believe was his mindset going into the race you and others will be less negative in your opinions. It's okay sitting at home being an armchair critic, but the comments of yourself and the detractors demonstrate a lack of insight into that level of running. I don't pretend to be an expert on synchronised diving or beach volleyball so don't make comments on the merits of the participants.

Like most of us Mottram would have been concentrating on the positives in the lead up. For him these are pretty good. He has beaten Bekele, a feat not many can lay claim to. He ran 12.55 and in doing so pushed Gebreselassie right to the line. These two have been the dominant figures in distance running over the past 15 years and both have reasonable claims to being the best ever. Not a bad starting point! More recently it sounds like his training has gone well and probably led him to believe he could mix it with anyone. I don't think he was entertaining negative thoughts, such as 'small q' qualifying, lack of finishing speed, not being in the top 4 (in the heat, let alone the final), etc.

To illustrate this I'll use a couple of examples, one from my own running, the other from that great producer of distance runners, Walt Disney.

In 1989 we had a world cross country trial. My form going into this had been pretty good. I ran a 3k PB a few nights earlier, beating most of the big boys. My last cross country was the previous year's nationals in Darwin where I finished 3rd. I put this loss down to the fact that (rightly or wrongly) I was less well acclimatised than those who beat me (Deek who had just got back from summer in the US, and Adam Hoyle, who had apparently been training in a heat chamber at the AIS). In my previous cross country race against Mona (88 world CC) I was pretty close (32nd to his 21st). I figured I was ready to take him on! I went out accordingly, matching him for the first few km. However, it became apparent that I wasn't as ready as I thought, as faded through the field to finish 11th. This was way off what I expected. In retrospect I would have been much better just running somewhere in the top 10 and guaranteeing my place in the team. All my thoughts were on winning the race, not doing the sensible thing! History would suggest I was a bit deluded in my assessment. However, if I had have been good enough the approach I took was the right one.

My other example is Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story. When we first meet Buzz he is fresh out of the box and believes he is a space ranger, can fly, is able to use his wrist gadgets to shoot laser beams and communicate with Star Command. As a result he comes across as a bit of a w#nker! However, bitter life experience leads him to the realisation that his capabilities are not quite what he thought. He reassesses and is a better person as a result. However, he also ceases his attempts to fly.

I think our own Buzz Lightyear has been brought back down to earth. Hopefully people will realise where he is coming from and not be too critical.

(My apologies Craig, if ever you read this, for likening you to Buzz Lightyear!).

Correction: I have met a sub 13 min runner. I had a run with Bob Kennedy a few years ago.

Edited by DrJH, 22 August 2008 - 08:11 AM.

[Rudolf]

DrJH, Your precondition stated, that anybiody who can talk about Buster, criticize, analyze, suggest or simply have a view, must be at least 13:40 runner or under 13 runner is completely ridiculous.

What is than the precondition for teh coach ?

Is Bideau under 13 min runner ? How he can coach him ?

In the history of running, (appart from australian marathon), the best coaches are seldom previous elite runners.
There is quite a bunch of people who produced gold medqakls winners and WR runners and these people very either very slow back pack or also finishers and some were not runners at all, Youi can find lots of white coats overweight big bellies producing teh champions.

To produce a champion is really demanding, to watch from distance and analyze by comparing elite runners to each others is not that demanding.


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Colin, DrJH is correct in 1 point, Osaka was very different. Osaka had nothing to do with tactics. Bustwer was dead body in Osaka, he had aura energy field around him comparable to nursing home resident with 6 months to live. From my experience he looked like someone with internal toxic poisoning.
He was simply completely out of shape and not able to run fast, regardless of tactics, Osaka was lost for him in the 6 months leading to it. We would never know teh real reasons, could be ignorance of heat-humid condition, could be teh hams injury and inability to train for 3 months, could be completely wrong nutritional system could be overtraining coukld be lots of things or combinations of them. That is not relevant to tghis discussion. Osaka was not the issue of racing tactics.

Beijing on the other hand was completely the issue of racing tactics in the heats.

Having said that, if You watch the last few meters Buster fin ishing in teh heat, his strides vere extremely heavy, his muscles looked stiff, he had no ability to bounce, no springs in his legs, so either the pace during race was too much for him, or the last 600m was too much for him.

Either way it suggest he was not prepared properly at all, but he looked healthy and fit (differnece to Osaka), so to me, He could have been smart and get to final and finish in top 8, perhaps 6 if the pace was right for him, but was not in medal shape anyway.


So far from australian running (of couerse Sally) only Youceff and Tamsyn showed the right approach and attitude.
The Jelimo model - run my own pace for my own finishing time. Ful stop.

Somehow there is a culture which speculates, that if I am slower runner, so not as good as others, in right circumstances and correct tactics machinations, I as a slower runner can beat teh faster runners, and I give the power of the resuklt to others by praying, that the race is run to suit me, I am not going to take it to my hands, if it goes wrong, I can blame the tactics, the pace, the pacers rabbits, etc.

This running culture is watching tooo much of TdF, hoping for easy ride all the way and somebody to prepare finish for them

[Keats]

Hey Rudolf

DrJH mentioned nothing about 13:40 of faster, you made this up.


[quote name='Rudolf' date='Aug 22 2008, 08:38 AM' post='371088']
DrJH, Your precondition stated, that anybiody who can talk about Buster, criticize, analyze, suggest or simply have a view, must be at least 13:40 runner or under 13 runner is completely ridiculous.

[DrJH]

Rudolf, I didn't state that a precondition to commenting on Mottram's run was that one needed to be a sub 13.40 5k runner. Simply that running at a higher level can give more of an insight into the factors involved. I haven't run in the Olympics either, and have never met Mottram. However, I am probably the most experienced 5k runner to post on this subject. Doesn't the fact that I am prepared to cut him some slack say something? I am sure there are plenty of factors I am not privy to surrounding his run. I can only speculate as to his thought processes and maybe shed some light on his approach.

As far as Nic Bideau goes, I'm not a fan. However, he has a vast network of contacts and access to the best. Ron Clarke once said that his grandmother could have coached Herb Elliott to a world record. I imagine similarly with Mottram, the difficult thing would be not to waste his talent.

I think people need to be better informed of all the circumstances before they lay the boot in.

[Ron1]

As Mick Thomas says: "Monday's experts.  You can't put a bet on at the finish of a race

Dr JH said:

Quote

I do know a bit about 5k running. I ask about the 5k credentials of the critics because the physical demands and mental approach are different to those required for a weekend fun run, or even 800 or 1500 heats in a state championship. Likewise I don't know much about sub 13 min 5k running

I don't see that this is an attempt to silence anyone.  To me it is a request for the critics to try and understand that Buster is competing at a different level to what some commentators  have experienced.  This does mean that maybe  opinions would be a little more valued and perhaps even different had our experts competed at that level.  Moreover, if Buster's race had gone to plan, would you experts (in hindsight) still be offering the same advice and criticism? I doubt it.

I agree with DR JH it is little more difficult than some would have us believe. The margin for errror (as demonstrated by that race) is so small that some of us, apparently,  can't comprehend it.

Rudi you are simply slagging Craig Mottram.  Buster had the attitude of a contender.  The risks are higher the higher you go.  He was confident he could cover the others.  His history suggests that this would and should be the case.  He made an understandable error in judgement in the heat of battle.  He made no excuses just stated what had happened.
There is big difference between objective anaylsis and slagging because you have a point to prove.

I think Nick Bideau was a reasonable runner once.   He certainly has spent a lot of time with the world's best distance runners.   He knows the score as, I think, DrJH does.  

I still think Craig Mottram is a champion.

Edited by littleaussie, 22 August 2008 - 09:53 AM.