21 replies to this topic

[bruxism]

Hi guys.

Got into running about 9 months ago from a  completely sedentary lifestyle. Have done things a little backwards as the only races I have competed in thus far are a half marathon and more recently the Gold Coast marathon. Bridge to Brisbane 10K is my next race and I'm hoping to do it in about 45minutes (ambitious goal I think)

Recent results
20/03/11 - Half marathon race  - 1:59:00
10/04/11 - Half marathon training - 1:51:00
29/05/11 - Half marathon training - 1:45:00
03/07/11 - Marathon Race - 4:12:00 (splits of 1:54 and 2:18) (ITB problems)
19/07/11 - 5K training - 21:59

Programs followed  

the C25K program
hal higdon's beginner marathon program (consists of 4 runs a week, no thought to speed work, cruise, intervals or hills)

The program I'm planning for Bridge to Brisbane is

Monday - Bike and Swim (1 hour)
Tuesday - 5k time trial
Wednesday - Bike and swim
Thursday - Speed/VO2 session (example, 4 x 200m in 47sec each followed by 3 x 1K in 4:25 each)
Friday - Bike & swim
Saturday -rest
Sunday - Long run (about 12K at 5:30k/min)

Please, before you reply with "more running" 3 times a week is all I'm prepared to devote to running as I have other interests to take care of. Not mentioned in the program is also my 3 rockclimbing sessions a week and 3 core strength workouts.

My question is mainly about my plan for Tuesday. No training plan i've seen suggests time trials as part your workout. This program is a bastardized version of Ben Wisbey's Plan Where he suggests that workout be "Cruise intervals."

Given that I only do 3 running sessions a week, I'm trying to get big bang for my buck out of tuesday, hence the time trial instead of cruise intervals. Time trials also feel great and are easy to administer, while cruise intervals are a whole bunch of clock watching and just not as much fun.

I guess, my question is...
I realise this is not the best way to train but is there a really good reason why I shouldn't do it this way? Is there something else I should do instead(remembering 3 run max per week rule)

Thanks for reading my really really long post

Edited by bruxism, 20 July 2011 - 05:18 PM.

[Supersam1979]

6x4x200m at 5km pace. and 20x 400m at 5000m pace. This will get you quicker!

[twosheds]

Id say dont do time trials on a weekly basis and when you do them- maybe  monthly, they can substitute better for the speed/Vo2 max session. Id thoroughly recommend keeping the cruise intervals/tempo running as your third session- Ive noticed people make big improvements when they start to add in these sessions -especially when they do them at the correct paces and not be tempted to think faster is always better.
twosheds

[russell2pi]

I will leave the training suggestions to the experts but-

 bruxism, on 20 July 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

19/07/11 - 5K training - 21:59

I'd say you're just about at your 45-min goal already when you factor in race-day psychology. Might want to at least do a couple of time trials closer to the day to potentially re-assess your goal?

[bruxism]

Thanks for the replies guys. In order

Quote

6x4x200m at 5km pace. and 20x 400m at 5000m pace. This will get you quicker!

Sorry Sam, could you elaborate on that plan a little bit?

Quote

Id say dont do time trials on a weekly basis and when you do them- maybe monthly, they can substitute better for the speed/Vo2 max session. Id thoroughly recommend keeping the cruise intervals/tempo running as your third session- Ive noticed people make big improvements when they start to add in these sessions -especially when they do them at the correct paces and not be tempted to think faster is always better.
twosheds

Is there a physiological reason you suggest not doing weekly time trials? Are they too taxing? Will the fact that I'm only running 3 times a week counteract that?

Quote

I'd say you're just about at your 45-min goal already when you factor in race-day psychology. Might want to at least do a couple of time trials closer to the day to potentially re-assess your goal?

Thanks for saying so Russell though i'm not entirely sure. Time trial was on flat ground while the 10K is bridge to brisbane kicking off with the fight through the crowd while running up the bridge. Still have 7 weeks, so I think if i can turn in a 21 minute 5k then I'll be confident of cracking 45 on the B2B course. Should probably try to sneak in some hill sprints too at some stage?

[Supersam1979]

 bruxism, on 21 July 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies guys. In order

Sorry Sam, could you elaborate on that plan a little bit?

Pretty simple really. On a track or at the gym on a treadmill (track is better) do a warmup of 2-3km, then stretching, then do 400m at your 5KM pace. Then have a little break, then 400m again at 5KM pace and continue this till you have run 20 reps of this. Then another 2-3KM at the end. This all builds speed and is a great workout to peak off.

6x4x200m ,is the same excpet you are running half the distance per rep. Do 200m at 5KM pace, then little rest then another. Each 4 reps is a set - have a longer break then repeat again and again. Get real results from it. Hills - only at the start of a program - then 400s and 200s to bring your time down substantially. Good luck!

[Leaf]

 bruxism, on 21 July 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Thanks for saying so Russell though i'm not entirely sure. Time trial was on flat ground while the 10K is bridge to brisbane kicking off with the fight through the crowd while running up the bridge. Still have 7 weeks, so I think if i can turn in a 21 minute 5k then I'll be confident of cracking 45 on the B2B course. Should probably try to sneak in some hill sprints too at some stage?

Last year my 5km PB was 21:45, and I ran B2B in around 44:25. I run on hills fairly frequently too.

There's also a sneaky hill coming up out of the ICB at around 8km - most people don't expect this one but I think it's more of a killer than the first!

Good luck with the training.

[twosheds]

 bruxism, on 21 July 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies guys. In order




Is there a physiological reason you suggest not doing weekly time trials? Are they too taxing? Will the fact that I'm only running 3 times a week counteract that?

You already have a speed/Vo2 max session in there and that's where i think your Timetrial should go. Id also mix up the time trial distance but don't do one each week- every 3-4 weeks is enough- 1km, 3k,  2km a mile even. You wont see  much improvement week to week and there are a range of valuable workouts you can do as well to increase your Vo2 max as well to incorporate into that session. Running all out in a 5km Time trial is taxing  physically and psychologically- I think I have come out of a 5km race injured more than any other distance. A  tempo/cruise interval session run will help push up your aerobic threshold- ie mean you can run faster while still using predominantly the aerobic energy system which means less fatiuge.  Ive seen lost of people really improve their times by doing this- even though it seems counter-intuitive. The best racers are often the most sensible trainers.

Bridge to Brisbane can be really crowded- its great if you get a good start but can be terrible. Brisbane road Runners has regular 5 and 10km events every second Sunday- great for race practice and its a good accurate course too.
keep us posted - and good luck with it
twosheds

[twosheds]

 bruxism, on 21 July 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies guys. In order




Is there a physiological reason you suggest not doing weekly time trials? Are they too taxing? Will the fact that I'm only running 3 times a week counteract that?

You already have a speed/Vo2 max session in there and that's where i think your Timetrial should go. Id also mix up the time trial distance but don't do one each week- every 3-4 weeks is enough- 1km, 3k,  2km a mile even. You wont see  much improvement week to week and there are a range of valuable workouts you can do as well to increase your Vo2 max as well to incorporate into that session. Running all out in a 5km Time trial is taxing  physically and psychologically- I think I have come out of a 5km race injured more than any other distance. A  tempo/cruise interval session run will help push up your aerobic threshold- ie mean you can run faster while still using predominantly the aerobic energy system which means less fatiuge.  Ive seen lost of people really improve their times by doing this- even though it seems counter-intuitive. The best racers are often the most sensible trainers.

Bridge to Brisbane can be really crowded- its great if you get a good start but can be terrible. Brisbane road Runners has regular 5 and 10km events every second Sunday- great for race practice and its a good accurate course too.
keep us posted - and good luck with it
twosheds

[UnfitnessFanatic]

 twosheds, on 21 July 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

Brisbane road Runners has regular 5 and 10km events every second Sunday- great for race practice and its a good accurate course too.

I was about to suggest the same thing.  Why not head out this weekend for a 5k and then in two weeks or even 4 weeks do a 10k.  You will get a great idea where your at from those two runs.  The crowd at Bridge To Brisbane should give you a kind of drag, and you will hardly notice the bridge.  The ICB, thats a whole different storey...

[Runner500]

I'd have one piece of advice. Slowly extend your runs into longer ones. Do more of a warm up and cool down and run 20/22 k as a long one (get there slowly). Also do the. Long run 15/20 secs slower than the 10k goal pace (4:45/k). This will increase your aerobic strength. On the race day, run the first 5k at about 4:40( remember your goal pace is 4:30), next 3 at 4:30 and run faster and faster for the last 2k ( getting into anaerobic mode). You can practice the running last 2k fast on your long runs at the end.
Mind you, I'm not a coach and this change would most probably suit my running characteristics. 

 bruxism, on 20 July 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Hi guys.

Got into running about 9 months ago from a  completely sedentary lifestyle. Have done things a little backwards as the only races I have competed in thus far are a half marathon and more recently the Gold Coast marathon. Bridge to Brisbane 10K is my next race and I'm hoping to do it in about 45minutes (ambitious goal I think)

Recent results
20/03/11 - Half marathon race  - 1:59:00
10/04/11 - Half marathon training - 1:51:00
29/05/11 - Half marathon training - 1:45:00
03/07/11 - Marathon Race - 4:12:00 (splits of 1:54 and 2:18) (ITB problems)
19/07/11 - 5K training - 21:59

Programs followed  

the C25K program
hal higdon's beginner marathon program (consists of 4 runs a week, no thought to speed work, cruise, intervals or hills)

The program I'm planning for Bridge to Brisbane is

Monday - Bike and Swim (1 hour)
Tuesday - 5k time trial
Wednesday - Bike and swim
Thursday - Speed/VO2 session (example, 4 x 200m in 47sec each followed by 3 x 1K in 4:25 each)
Friday - Bike & swim
Saturday -rest
Sunday - Long run (about 12K at 5:30k/min)

Please, before you reply with "more running" 3 times a week is all I'm prepared to devote to running as I have other interests to take care of. Not mentioned in the program is also my 3 rockclimbing sessions a week and 3 core strength workouts.

My question is mainly about my plan for Tuesday. No training plan i've seen suggests time trials as part your workout. This program is a bastardized version of Ben Wisbey's Plan Where he suggests that workout be "Cruise intervals."

Given that I only do 3 running sessions a week, I'm trying to get big bang for my buck out of tuesday, hence the time trial instead of cruise intervals. Time trials also feel great and are easy to administer, while cruise intervals are a whole bunch of clock watching and just not as much fun.

I guess, my question is...
I realise this is not the best way to train but is there a really good reason why I shouldn't do it this way? Is there something else I should do instead(remembering 3 run max per week rule)

Thanks for reading my really really long post

[Tiddischer]

 Supersam1979, on 20 July 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

20x 400m at 5000m pace. This will get you quicker!

This means a total 5 k race pace distance of 8 km, too much for a beginner. Better start with 8-10 x 400 m and increase the number gradualy over month.

 Runner500, on 22 July 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'd have one piece of advice. Slowly extend your runs into longer ones. Do more of a warm up and cool down and run 20/22 k as a long one (get there slowly). Also do the. Long run 15/20 secs slower than the 10k goal pace (4:45/k). This will increase your aerobic strength. On the race day, run the first 5k at about 4:40( remember your goal pace is 4:30), next 3 at 4:30 and run faster and faster for the last 2k ( getting into anaerobic mode). You can practice the running last 2k fast on your long runs at the end.
Mind you, I'm not a coach and this change would most probably suit my running characteristics. 

20 - 22 km in a pace 15 - 20 s slower than 10 km race pace? This means exactly a half marathon race (!) and is much too taxing for regular long runs. 10 km pace + 45 s is much better for a weekly routine.


@runner500: You do not really run a training half marathon in 1:33:55 each week (with your 10 km best of 42 min), do you?

Edited by Tiddischer, 22 July 2011 - 08:29 PM.

[SillyFatWanker]

If I read the OP correctly he is already running marathons I don't think he needs to extend his runs. I'll steal BTs usual recommendation, race more! Plenty of runs between here and B2B to find your 10k legs. The last few months I've really only been doing 3 days a week due to a few complications in the family and made pretty significant improvements doing 2 speed-like sessions and 1 long run a week. The long run is usually a race of some sort and the speed sessions are 2-3k warmup, 5 or so 50m sprints to stretch the legs (standing recovery) then say 6x 90-180sec hard efforts (jogging recovery)  with 2-3k cool down. I'm going for 45 min at b2b too so I'll see you there and we can battle to the finish line

Edited by SillyFatWanker, 22 July 2011 - 08:38 PM.

[Tiddischer]

 SillyFatWanker, on 22 July 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

If I read the OP correctly he is already running marathons I don't think he needs to extend his runs. I'll steal BTs usual recommendation, race more! Plenty of runs between here and B2B to find your 10k legs. The last few months I've really only been doing 3 days a week due to a few complications in the family and made pretty significant improvements doing 2 speed-like sessions and 1 long run a week. The long run is usually a race of some sort and the speed sessions are 2-3k warmup, 5 or so 50m sprints to stretch the legs (standing recovery) then say 6x 90-180sec hard efforts (jogging recovery)  with 2-3k cool down. I'm going for 45 min at b2b too so I'll see you there and we can battle to the finish line

He writes in his initial post, that his 'long runs' should be 12 k -> not really a long run.

And I did not say, that you need to run any longer than maybe 1 h if just for 10 k and not for HM/M.
I just replied to Runner500 that I think his pace of 15 s slower than 10 k would be too fast (even unrealistic, because most normal runners are simply not able to run a half marathon just 15 s slower than 10 k, let alone to do this in training every week).

Edited by Tiddischer, 22 July 2011 - 08:58 PM.

[SillyFatWanker]

You got in before me but I was actually responding to runner500 too.

Quote

Slowly extend your runs into longer ones

Yeah 12k isn't really a long run but coming off the back of the GC marathon he obviously has a better base than his 9 months of running would suggest. Wouldn't be too concerned about pushing distance on the weekend.

[bruxism]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Few things
Happy to run longer on the weekends if you guys think it will help. I have done plenty of 25k plus runs in the lead up to gold coast so won't be an issue getting them in. McMillan suggest about a 5:20-5:57 pace for my long runs. Go on the faster side of that?

I will try to get some weekend races in between now and then but not sure I'll manage it. Adventure race this Sunday then another one a month from now and I have a Sunday morning job that I'm supposed to work at too.

It might be a little controversial but I'm doing my speed/VO2 session barefoot in the local park. I've done it twice now and I have to say it does feel really good (despite the blisters and a bit of blood). I can feel my form improving because of it too.

From your suggestions it seems I'll have to get into this cruise interval idea then. Could i just make sure I understand cruise intervals right?
The training program I'm taking inspiration from suggests: 3 x 6min with 3 min recovery.

So that means i'm running 6 minutes at race pace (4:30min/k) and then 3min at around 5:30min/k, repeated three times.
That will work out to about 4km run at race pace and about 1.5 K run at long run pace. I'm having trouble understanding how this is very different to just doing a 5k time trial. They seem like almost the same workout to me. I know i must be missing something.

Thanks for all your help everyone, and I'll see you at the finish line SillyFatWanker, may the best man win.

[Runner500]

As a mater of fact, i run 30-35 k at round 20 secs slower than my MP. But that's just me and my coach is the one who got me running around 110k a week. I think the OP would benefit from aerobic WOs more than the hard VO sessions.

 Tiddischer, on 22 July 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

This means a total 5 k race pace distance of 8 km, too much for a beginner. Better start with 8-10 x 400 m and increase the number gradualy over month.



20 - 22 km in a pace 15 - 20 s slower than 10 km race pace? This means exactly a half marathon race (!) and is much too taxing for regular long runs. 10 km pace + 45 s is much better for a weekly routine.


@runner500: You do not really run a training half marathon in 1:33:55 each week (with your 10 km best of 42 min), do you?

[UnfitnessFanatic]

 Runner500, on 23 July 2011 - 01:14 AM, said:

As a mater of fact, i run 30-35 k at round 20 secs slower than my MP.

I assume MP = Marathon Pace?  

If so that makes more sense as there is no way I would be trying to do my long slow run 15-20sec/k slower than my 10km time.

[Runner500]

Yep marathon pace. I ran 35k today for the first time by running the first 25k around 20-25 secs slower than my MP. Then I sped up  and ran 25-33
10 secs FASTER than my MP. The trick is obviously to run the last ks fast in order to stimulate race fatigue. If I could only go a bit faster during my first 25k, my times would take a tumble.

 UnfitnessFanatic, on 23 July 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

I assume MP = Marathon Pace?  

If so that makes more sense as there is no way I would be trying to do my long slow run 15-20sec/k slower than my 10km time.

[UnfitnessFanatic]

Yes runner500 but above you said 15sec slower per k than 10km race pace and as tiddischer said that is way to fast for a training long slow run let alone for a beginner to be attempting.  I will generally do my long runs at about 5-5.30 pace.

[Runner500]

My bad. I definitely meant 15/20 secs slower than MP as any faster is too fast. Thanks for the correction.

 UnfitnessFanatic, on 24 July 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

Yes runner500 but above you said 15sec slower per k than 10km race pace and as tiddischer said that is way to fast for a training long slow run let alone for a beginner to be attempting.  I will generally do my long runs at about 5-5.30 pace.

[bruxism]

Just wanted to thank you guys for the advice.

I just got done with the B2B 10K and although official times aren't in I think I managed to get it done in under 43:30.

My training turned out to be cruise intervals, Speed/VO2 session and the long run. The two quality sessions averaged about 8k's while the long run peaked around 15k.

I think a lot of the gains I made were due to my cross-training though, with 3 sessions in the pool and 3 on the bike every week. Either way, I'm stoked and am already planning an assault on a sub 1:30 half-marathon and a sub 20 5k.

Woo!