23 replies to this topic

[mgi11a]

Just read this at yahoo7.

The cause of his cardiac arrest was said to be hot weather, low electrolytes and a race average heart rate of 184 beats per minute.

low electrolytes,

31 and an avg HR of 184,

hot weather,

is this the recipe for a cardiac arrest in a healthy body? or would there be another factor?

I'd be interested to get feedback on this from the medical fraternity out there.

mgilla

Edited by mgi11a, 19 September 2011 - 08:39 PM.

[MrUniqueName]

All I could focus on was the fact that they kept calling it a marathon...

Lucky man though!

[Ultramouse]

MrUniqueName, on 19 September 2011 - 08:52 PM, said:

All I could focus on was the fact that they kept calling it a marathon...

Lucky man though!

Ah... I thought he had actually croaked until I saw the link.

My theory is that if 100% of what is reported in the papers that I have personal knowledge of is incorrectly reported, then a similar percentage of what I don't have personal knowledge of must also be similarly 'skewed'.

On the balance of probabilities the story must be a little sensationalised.

Unless he has some underlying medical problems I say get out there, train under supervision and run again. Beat the hoodoo.

(Apologies if the guy really does have some lingering problem. I just don't like the media. Oh dear, will this attract some negative reponses?)

[undercover brother]

ultramouse, on 19 September 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:

On the balance of probabilities the story must be a little sensationalised.

the guy had CPR and was defibrillated a few times.
looked pretty 'sensational' to me.
lucky guy.
the guy had a shockable rhythm so either pulselss VT (ventricular tachycardia) or VF (ventricular fibrillation).
even without seeing his blood tests would be pretty hard to put this down solely to 'electrolyte abnormalities' and a high heart rate or anything that the run would've caused by/in itself.
which leaves pre-existing cardiac problems high on the list to exclude wither coronary artery disease (narrowed heart blood flow) and/or a predisposition (congenital or otherwise) for heart arrhythmias.

[Bellthorpe]

'Pre-existing'. As is so often the case.

Simply a high heart rate is unlikely to be any sort of culprit. The heart is a self limiting organ.

[Colin]

Bellthorpe, on 19 September 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

Simply a high heart rate is unlikely to be any sort of culprit.

The reporter was just "making shit up" , in Pat Rafter's way of putting it.

The guy finished at 8:15am...so it wasn't 'hot', we don't know what his 'electrolyte levels' were, and even so what is the relevance, and the reporter just thought that 184 figure on the HRM looked so cool it had to be put into story.

[TheRuns]

The runner in me wants to know his time...

BUT I do agree that dehydration is unlikely to be the sole culprit. Studies have shown that the most likely causes are anatomical in nature, such as HOCM and coronary arterial problems. This article is a reasonable summary. This one discusses protection.

Without knowing his familial background or other risk factors, it is hard to comment. The HR of 184 is interesting, but irrelevant as we don't know when that was taken.

[Colin]

TheRuns, on 20 September 2011 - 10:39 AM, said:

The runner in me wants to know his time...
///
The HR of 184 is interesting, but irrelevant as we don't know when that was taken.

He did 1:55, which is where I got the 8:15am finish from.

The 184 was apparently the 'race average' on his HRM.

[Bellthorpe]

TheRuns, on 20 September 2011 - 10:39 AM, said:

This article is a reasonable summary. This one discusses protection.

Not many CoolRunners are likely to have a subscription to JAMA.

[TheRuns]

Oh. I'm sorry about that. I was on a computer at work. I thought those articles were free content but I guess I was wrong.
I can post them here if anyone is interested.

Colin, on 20 September 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

He did 1:55, which is where I got the 8:15am finish from.

The 184 was apparently the 'race average' on his HRM.

I see. What I am also interested in is if the HRM was picking up a tachtarrhythmia and therefore giving qn artificially elevated reading.

[undercover brother]

TheRuns, on 20 September 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

I see. What I am also interested in is if the HRM was picking up a tachtarrhythmia and therefore giving qn artificially elevated reading.

or some overly quick CPR
that JAMA article would be great to see TR.
not a bad time to link in the resus council guidelines for basic (and advanced) life support.
here
a few things changed in dec 2010.

Edited by undercover brother, 20 September 2011 - 04:24 PM.

[MountainMan]

Why would a HR of 184 contribute to the heart attack?

I averaged 181 for a 1h26 Half marathon and I am 34... is that putting me at risk of a heart attack?

I agree, I think it is a case of "oh look a number I will stick that in the article."

[Learjet]

No NDE either...

[TheRuns]

undercover brother, on 20 September 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

or some overly quick CPR
that JAMA article would be great to see TR.
not a bad time to link in the resus council guidelines for basic (and advanced) life support.
here
a few things changed in dec 2010.

Ok, will post them tomorrow when I'm at work.

[Supersam1979]

He is a lucky man and did not look overweight so could be a preexisting condition. Mind you sometimes your number is just up for no reason whatsoever (that humans can explain) - a buddy of mine dropped dead on the rugby field at 25 (really fit, no smoking, no drinking, no drugs etc)- who knows why...

I don't generally look at heart rates, but know that my doctor measured mine at resting at 35 once and she freaked out.

[Colin]

Yeah, one of my best ever mates died in 2004 less than 1km into a easy run when travelling through London. He was 51, a good marathon runner (PB in low 2:40's I think), one of the fittest looking 50 yo's you could have comne across etc.

He just stopped, fell over and could not be revived by CPR (happenned near a medical centre). Autopsy revealed absolutely no heart damage, speculated to be ventricular tachycardia/arrhythmmia.

It is said that CPR will not revive such a condition and needs defibrillator to 'reset' heart, if this was the case with the guy on the weekend then the CPR probably just kept him alive until the defibrillators were applied.

[Fossil]

Colin, on 21 September 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yeah, one of my best ever mates died in 2004 less than 1km into a easy run when travelling through London. He was 51, a good marathon runner (PB in low 2:40's I think), one of the fittest looking 50 yo's you could have comne across etc.

He just stopped, fell over and could not be revived by CPR (happenned near a medical centre). Autopsy revealed absolutely no heart damage, speculated to be ventricular tachycardia/arrhythmmia.

It is said that CPR will not revive such a condition and needs defibrillator to 'reset' heart, if this was the case with the guy on the weekend then the CPR probably just kept him alive until the defibrillators were applied.

When I hit 50 I went for a full check up including a heart stress test from someone who really put me through a hard session. I need to go again next year and will continue to do so - just in case there is something lurking that I don't know about :-)

[TheRuns]

Hi all,
As promised, the articles I made reference to above.

Attached Files

•  2001_SCD in athletes and screening_JAT.pdf   81.73K   30 downloads
•  2006_protecting athletes from SCD_JAMA.pdf   56.65K   42 downloads

[SlimDJ]

TheRuns, on 21 September 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Hi all,
As promised, the articles I made reference to above.

Well - I know what I'll be doing for the last hour at work today - thank you.

[iRonnie]

Joey Ramone had Marfans.  The irony is he died of lymphoma rather than a blown aorta. Noter how tall and gangly he is.


 joey-ramone-may-18-2011-1-600.jpg   59.76K   17 downloads

Edited by iRonnie, 21 September 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[TheRuns]

Michael Phelps is the same. He undergoes regular echos to check his aortic root etc. I would imagine his Marfan's is less severe than many.

[Chaser52]

I'm glad he regained conciousness and is okay. I did the Marathon and there were heaps of people passing out and needing attention. I reckon there were heaps of factors involved. I think if my heart rate got that high I would've stopped and walked until it calmed down but that's me and we are all different. In the Marathon, I stopped running continuously after 26km because I knew that if I continued I couldve been in trouble too. I ran for 3 min and walked 1 min for the last 16km. That way I was able to stay fresher and also better hydrated. As for the extra time it added, I didn't care because I know there are always more Marathons to do on other days where the conditions won't be so extreme.

[bones]

TheRuns, on 21 September 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

Michael Phelps is the same. He undergoes regular echos to check his aortic root etc. I would imagine his Marfan's is less severe than many.

I wasn't aware there was "less severe" Marfan's. He's certainly at risk of early death. How sad. My dad had Marfan's and died at age 38 getting involved in fighting a mountain fire where we lived.

[TheRuns]

bones, on 22 September 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

I wasn't aware there was "less severe" Marfan's. He's certainly at risk of early death. How sad. My dad had Marfan's and died at age 38 getting involved in fighting a mountain fire where we lived.

Sorry Bones. To elaborate, whilst you either have Marfan's or you don't, there is variable expression. At the severe end, the major blood vessels, eyes, skeleton lungs and CNS are affected. Those who are more 'Marfanoid' have some of the somatic features, without the connective tissue manifestations. I couldn't comment of Phelps' case specifically, but I remember the controversy when he won all his golds and comments about Marfan's, which he confirmed by stating that he regularly underwent cardiovascular review.