31 replies to this topic

[Grechy]

With running technique does not seem to be spoken about as much as in other sports such as swimming etc.

Has anyone noticed a big improvement to their running after improving their technique ? I did read somewhere that an improved technique can take up to 5 minutes off your 10KM time. That sounds a bit unrealistic to me but I am currently working on my technique. If I can take 2 minutes off my 10KM time then I will be over the moon.

Do most of you run on the balls of your feet when running 5-10KM ? The theories behind this seem to be debatable with every runner I talk to. Some people have told me that all sub 40 minute 10KM runners should run the entire race on the balls of their feet.

Would love to read your thoughts on this issue.

[Fossil]

Grechy, on Nov 11 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

With running technique does not seem to be spoken about as much as in other sports such as swimming etc.

Has anyone noticed a big improvement to their running after improving their technique ? I did read somewhere that an improved technique can take up to 5 minutes off your 10KM time. That sounds a bit unrealistic to me but I am currently working on my technique. If I can take 2 minutes off my 10KM time then I will be over the moon.

Do most of you run on the balls of your feet when running 5-10KM ? The theories behind this seem to be debatable with every runner I talk to. Some people have told me that all sub 40 minute 10KM runners should run the entire race on the balls of their feet.

Would love to read your thoughts on this issue.

I have been working on technique changes for a while and I believe it is, and will, make quite a difference to efficiency (and therefore speed), and injury prevention. I still have a lot of re-training to do yet but, so far, when I concentrate on it, I am running faster in training. On Sat I did a PB and wasn't particularly stressed whereas and last time at that speed I remember having to lie on the track to recover! So although the jury is still out I believe I am seeing signs of it working. I have seen others make big improvements with technique changes and am hoping to follow suit. I have had a assessement with a sport scientist (Jason McLaren, (isport)) and was very impressed - all I need to do now is discipline myself to follow his suggestions and do some follow-ups and it should work. Time will tell!

Edited by Fossil, 12 November 2007 - 09:29 AM.

[Jason M]

I worked on my running technique by focussing on a midfoot landing (instead of heel striking as used to be my style).  I added plyometric style drills and included regular barefoot running.

What resulted was less injuries.  Yes I was faster too, but is this a result of the technique changes, less interruption of training, better training recovery, I am unsure.  The answer is most likely to be a combination of all of above plus other factors.

Be careful when working on technique.  Sometime people do change what is natural for them innapropriately.  I witnessed a sprint coach develop a very fast leg turn-over in his sprinters.  Unfortunately he achieved this by sacrificing the power of each stride.  The end result was slower times for the sprinters.

[deadcat]

i'm a sub 40min 10k'er and a heel striker, as most people are.. not really ready to buy a place on the mid/forefoot bandwagon..  BUT i don't really know enough about the subject (not that that ever stopped me before).. maybe when i get calcaneal fractures i'll repent  

my 2c would be that if it's not broken, don't fix it.  Don't try and change what is your natural "style" just for the sake of it.. because someone tells you it'll shave minutes off your 10k time..

But theres plenty of stuff around like the Pose running method and the mad Ukranian Dr who runs it (seems a bit sketchy to me.. big promises!!)

good luck

[Markso]

Head over the Science of Sport blog (I have nothing to do with them by the way). Couple of guys who have a sports science background disect the whole technique argument using Pose and Chirunning as their basis. Very interesting. One of them is actually a pose coach but it is a very balanced argument.

http://scienceofspor...ght-way-to.html

[Colin]

Yep, two guys from Noakes' SSISA .

I've repeated the following frequently in previous threads on this:

From Ross Tucker:

Quote

My personal opinion is that if there was a way to run faster and with fewer injuries that WAS GUARANTEED TO WORK IN ALL PEOPLE (very important – it’s a ‘disclaimer’ of sorts, as you’ll see in the next few days’ posts) then it would be discovered by default. It’s difficult to fathom that millions of people, with different body shapes and sizes and leg lengths and centres of gravity and joint angles could fit into ONE SINGLE PATTERN or technique. Rather, the passage of time would filter out any flaws for each person.

Have a look at the Ryan Hall video posted elsewhere. His right foot strikes midfoot (with a touch of heel) - the accepted 'correct' or 'default' way, but his left foot is very noticeably heel first. Quite different angles. It may be a result of camber, or a biomech (shorter leg?) reason. I have a similar issue, which has resulted in facet pain referred down leg.

[NATSTAR]

Hi,

Hi good question. I run landing on the ball of my feet. I think this is okay, however i find that keeping your arms steady and hands gripped/clasped can help. Also remember to treat your feet to pedicures or use pumice stones to help with dry skin. Im sure that over time your running technique will always change.

[lavenderlilly]

I believe in a good technique.
My coach (back in over seas) used to be very particular about training technique.  And he was absest with arms - he said, that arms do 30% of the work (I would like to know other people's opinion about that).
I myself concentrate on a good posture, knee lift & stride, good arm work and breathing while training & racing.
Some of my mates get sore neck & shoulders, I feel fine.

[Colin]

lavenderlilly, on Nov 13 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

And he was absest with arms -

Please explain?

[lavenderlilly]

Well... He used to shout at us "Use your arms!" or "Where are your arms!" or "What are you doing with your arms!" And when we watched other people run (compete), he liked pointing out to us what they did or didn't do right with their arms.

When I race, my 13-year old son always yells out "MUM USE YOUR ARMS!" And last winter at Novice XC champs there was a man standing next him, who apparently cheered a lady runner running at the back of the pack saying also "Use your arms..." My son looked at him and said: "I think she should use her legs...!"

Edited by lavenderlilly, 13 November 2007 - 01:53 PM.

[Fossil]

It seems to me it's not just "use your arms", but use them properly.

Some people seem to waste a lot of energy with their arm (and shoulder) movements.

I am no expert and stand to be corrected but I am learning that you pull your arm back and allow the rest to happen naturally - Newton's 3rd Law of motion and all that (For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction).

But I think the arm action must be changed in conjunction with leg movements.

I was having my arm movements corrected in a session recently and that made my leg action feel very odd because I was balancing the two before changing the arm action, and changing the arm action had created an imbalance.

Now I believe I have gone some way to adjusting both it feels much better all round, and more efficient.

I am not there yet - I need more time, effort, and coaching to be 100% sure.

BTW I reckon the Saint has the near-perfect running style - I am using him as a guide (hope some speed rubs off too!)

Edited by Fossil, 13 November 2007 - 03:04 PM.

[Colin]

Colin, on Nov 13 2007, 12:44 PM, said:

Please explain?

Lavender I think you missed it, but I was only being tongue in cheek. I knew that 'absest' meant 'obsessed'.

[lavenderlilly]

Upps... Did I really type "absest"?.... How could that happen...

[Racing Pineapple]

It is a personal thing because we are all different and have different perceptions about our movements - some people have quite distinct "quirks" in their movement and don't even seem to notice. I've done a lot of work on my technique and found that it has helped heaps - in ease of movement, less soreness after hard sessions etc. So while the "horses for courses" argument can be made successfully and runners do come in all shapes and sizes, most people can fine-tune their own movement patterns to eliminate inefficiencies and get the most out of their running and racing.

[Grechy]

I have been concentrating on my technique since the Melbourne Marathon as it is my off season at the moment. It is still early days, but it does seem to be making a huge difference. I am nowhere near peak fitness but already I have run a 1KM equal to a PB so once I become used to the improved technique and once I regain full fitness, it will be interesting to see what times I can do.

[MTRspeedis]

i believe that technique has a great deal to do with running. if you can run with what would be considered as the ideal technique (what it is i'm not 100% sure of), i would assume that the technique would aid in a smoother flow when running which could reduce the effort or energy used when compared to a technique that contradicts the ideal form.

[BBB]

Asafa Powel has the better Technique
Asafa Powel also has the world record

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[Grechy]

BBB, on Nov 19 2007, 08:03 PM, said:

Asafa Powel has the better Technique
Asafa Powel also has the world record

Asafa Powel is also a sprinter, lets not forget that nearly all of us here are distance runners and I think that techniques and importance of technique would be different with distance runners compared to sprinters.

[rohan]

do you actually need to concentrate on technique?

or does that develop with increased mileage? i don't think i've seen any really bad technique out of anyone running 70+km/week.

re forefoot/midfoot/heel striking.  thought i was midfoot, but then have seen a coupla race photos showing heel strike, so you might want to video yourself to check. (if this is really important to you).

[MTRspeedis]

rohan, on Nov 20 2007, 06:33 AM, said:

do you actually need to concentrate on technique?

or does that develop with increased mileage? i don't think i've seen any really bad technique out of anyone running 70+km/week.

i know that i was lucky enough to have a very good natural style of running, but yet my arms were the only thing throwing me out and no matter how much running i did, the action of my arms never changed UNTIL i had a new coach who noticed the slight deviation from the natural or preferred style. with his help i fixed that up and my arm actions are now working better for me.

so to answer your question, no i dont think that just pure running will fix your style becuase without external input you are just going to keep running the way you feel comfortable (whether it is correct or not)

[B+]

With increased mileage, lower body weight, improved technique, better timing within my body parts and consitency of training I knocked 4 minutes of my 41 minute 10k time to 36 and a bit minutes. Which one caused it?

As Jason M said probably a combination of all of the above led to the improvement.

There is a difference between "different running techniques" and "biomechanically flawed running techniques" one allows for individaul variation and the other causes injury.

The bottom line is that as you become more effecient you will be able to go faster or go for longer without injury.

[Roz]

In my opinion technique is critical to run fast on the track and roads.  However if you are a 40min 10k runner I think you could get more "bang for buck" out of running longer or doing one more run a week than wasting time on drill sessions in the park.

All depends on what is meant by technique I guess.  Check the latest R4YL issue and TOM DC has a great article with loads of pics on drills.

I guess i think drills are important for mid distance etc and esspecially for events with a reasonable anaerobic component.  Take the 400m for example.  Look how good Jeremy Warriners form is in the last 50m compared to other's!

[Buncha]

How do you examine your running technique to assess if it is good or bad ?  Do you have to get a professional bio-mechanical assessment.

Or have people taken other approaches to self-assess ?  Any recommended web resources or books ?

[ACTRACoach]

Running Technique is essential and yes if your running style is average could easily take 5mins off your 10k time. I'm not talking Pose technique etc. just your technique in general if you can't or don't hold your self right as many of us don't then you will slow down in a big way. The longer the distance the more it will cost you. So a 100m runner we all know wants perfect form for their body and we also need it as distance runners. I can tell just by looking at the athletes I train when they race after 500m how their race will go for them. If there in form or out just by there posture and technique. In a 1500m race it could cost you as much as 20-30secs. or 100m.
The way I try to explain it to kids and parents is if you throw a kid off a bridge and he can't swim he will learn and do what is instinctive to him. He can practice all he likes but take him to a swim coach and he will be horrified. Sadly many people start running too late and particularly many teenage girls won't run and bad strides and postures are the results. If anyone has girls out there make them run or play sport  from 9 to 13 or else there legs go stupid as there hips pop out. Girls that run through this age can keep their feet in line.
KISS
Heel runners shorten stride work on cadence and rythmn.
Open your shoulders and stand a bit taller like a teenage boy might if a pretty girl walks by. But stay relaxed with it don't reef them back. This is most important if your tiring in a race to stand up so you can use your lungs.
Don't cross your arms over the middle of your chest like boxing and make sure they come back towards the hips not stay out the front.
If your co ordination is good in the legs toe runners do rule. I know everybody will not agree but the bio mechanics says it all. The heel is not designed for impacting 2.5 times your body weight cause when it does it sends it up to your knee then hips and back. Do this on cement regularly and you won't run for long. Landing toe first removes all this and is the way nature intended practice running bare foot on grass like an oval all the better if you suspect some bindis are in it an see how you run.
Arms are important your coach is right watch how you hold them as above to conserve energy and use them when needed. What you do with your arms you do with your legs. left them higher and your knees go higher swing them faster and your legs go faster hence why sprinters work on them so much. In distance running use them to get up hills and that final sprint both times you won't want to use your legs so swing the arms higher and faster and off you go but don't do this all the way though the race or you go like a rocket and die like one too.

[Grechy]

Thanks ACTRAcoach, that was a great post !!!

[Mickey]

Grechy, on Nov 27 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

Thanks ACTRAcoach, that was a great post !!!

Ditto Grechy, I was going to post thanks yesterday but didn't want to clog up the thread, but it it important to let people know that their effort is appreciated.  This was a great post full of simple practical information that I can go out tomorrow and apply to my run.

Cheers, Mike

[Pink Lady]

Thank you for an interesting discussion.
My big issues on style do not seem to have been referred to yet — that is the placement of your centre-of-gravity (c-o-g) and the positioning of your hips.
I have observed so many runners in the longer events who seem to be making things hard for themselves by running with their trunk in a very up-right position, therefore not projecting their  c-o-g ahead to maintain momentum. You see this also in runners who are very tired and take on that 'running-up-stairs' look.
Associated with this is the use of the core muscles (abs and back muscles) to hold your hips in the optimal angle that the legs can swing through in the most effective way.
Ideally these two processes need to be working together. You can move your c-o-g forward by leaning the top half of your body – however if you lean too far like this you are virtually bending over and this will lead to a kind of shuffle step because your legs cannot swing freely.

I suggest that you try out these various combinations for yourself — and have fun with the process — once you get it right it feels so good.

[Ron1]

.

Edited by littleaussie, 01 August 2008 - 05:13 PM.

[mack]

If you read Ron Clarke's running books he promotes improving running efficency by improving technique. Basically you want your expended energy going in forward locomotion, ie don't swing you arms sideways sending energy sideways and also minimise the time both feet are off the ground since wind resistence will slow you speed while you have no friction to the ground.

Edited by mack, 30 November 2007 - 05:57 AM.

[Pink Lady]

mustbeonmeway, on Nov 28 2007, 01:55 AM, said:

Also I'm a stomper. As I get older, slower it's getting worse.  Embarrassingly so.  Any suggestions (other than that!).

Thanks for reminding me 'mustbeonmyway' the bit I forgot to say about using your core strength and having your hips in the optimal angle is that your foot-fall is much lighter.

This is one of the ways that I gauge how I am going - if I can hear my foot-fall I know I have the wrong posture.

This idea also connects to what ACTRA Coach was saying about 'standing a bit taller'

[Chelli]

I think form is a debateable topic for faster running. I believe the best way to run faster is to keep your body properly aligned as straight as possible without sideways movements with smooth strides without trying to overstride or get too airbourne and no vertical osciallation. I believe in running tall with a slight lean forward to let the gravity help pull you forward.

I also try to run light on my feet so I don't strike the ground too hard and think of a quick cadence as well. I try to maintain 170-180 strides per minute at nearly every distance from 3km to 21km. I find to easily calculate you strides per minute count every step on you right or left foot then double that number after the minute is complete this will give you your stride frequency no.

[pjw]

lavenderlilly, on Nov 13 2007, 02:16 PM, said:

Well... He used to shout at us "Use your arms!" or "Where are your arms!" or "What are you doing with your arms!" And when we watched other people run (compete), he liked pointing out to us what they did or didn't do right with their arms.

When I race, my 13-year old son always yells out "MUM USE YOUR ARMS!" And last winter at Novice XC champs there was a man standing next him, who apparently cheered a lady runner running at the back of the pack saying also "Use your arms..." My son looked at him and said: "I think she should use her legs...!"

Who are you? This is priceless! Who is your coach? Who is your son?

You have almost presented what coaching is right here. Yay.

Edited by peterwinter, 23 December 2007 - 11:47 AM.