34 replies to this topic

[milesy]

Youcef Abdi has clocked his 4th Olympic A qualifier in the steeplechase, all within the qualification period, and has not yet been named in the team. I think he has been harshly done by considering they have put an athlete in the marathon team with only a B recorded.

Does anyone know why he has not been selected? I really feel sorry for him. He has been left off teams in the past despite being deserving of a berth (eg world XC a few years back). He also has clocked this time despite poor preparations (was caught in Kenya during the riots, just before nationals and wasn;t able to train). Are we discouraging athletes by being inconsistent with selection criteria???


FROM ATHLETICS NSW WEBSITE:

Youcef Abdi has finished third in the 3000m Steeplechase at the Joseph Odlozila Memorial Meet in Prague.

Abdi crossed the line in 8:22.89 to go under the Olympic A-standard of 8:24.60 for the fourth time during the Olympic selection period.

The race, which was the final on the program, did not unfold as Abdi had hoped. The Kenyan athlete who had the responsibility of pacing the field unfortunately fell at the water jump on the second lap. Knowing that it was critical to keep the pace steady throughout the race to run under the A-standard, Abdi took the lead for a majority of the race before being beaten in a sprint finish to the line by Ethopia's Gari Roba (8:22.07) and Kenya's Patrick Langat (8:22.61).

"We hoped for a faster time as Roba and myself are both in superb shape, but loosing the pacer changed the nature of the race," said Abdi following the race.

"The positive thing though is we ran the A-qualifer."

Abdi will now wait in anticipation for the final selectors meeting on 23 June to see if he will be nominated for selection to the Beijing Olympics.

[Long Arms]

They HAVE to pick Youcef, otherwise they will be ripped apart by a good lawyer in court and it will cost them a fortune.

The rest have only been nominated to be in the team, not officiallly chosen yet. Those nominated who don't prove fitness won't be in final selection. Even those on junior international teams have to prove fitness. in final month or so leading into a championship.

Youcef is proving to fitter than the majority already nominated. There have been several dnfs and sub par performances from some on the list.


Arms

[Jimboy]

Well done Mr Abdi,four A qualifiers,has anyone else achieved as many in the qualifying period?

[thomo]

Long Arms, on Jun 17 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

They HAVE to pick Youcef, otherwise they will be ripped apart by a good lawyer in court and it will cost them a fortune.

The rest have only been nominated to be in the team, not officiallly chosen yet. Those nominated who don't prove fitness won't be in final selection. Even those on junior international teams have to prove fitness. in final month or so leading into a championship.

Youcef is proving to fitter than the majority already nominated. There have been several dnfs and sub par performances from some on the list.


Arms

IMHO, Long Arms, AA would not be ripped apart by a good or indifferent lawyer.

If I read the selection criteria correctly it is solely the selectors discretion in his particular circumstances.

Youcef Abdi is a member of my Club, Bankstown Sports Senior Athletics Club. I hope he is selected.

However your, mine and other people's emotions will not get him selected.

thomo

[k_run]

Well if the rumours are correct Abdi was told he would have to break the national record (8:16) to get selected. He has shown good recent form and consistency with a number of other B qualifiers under his belt. I will be greatly disillusioned if he does not make the team.

[MizukiNoguchi]

It'll be a complete rort if they don't pick him. He is improving with every race and looking sweet to peak at the right time, ie Beijing in August not the trials in late February. I love the selection of Weightman for the marathon, but it'll be very suspicious if they pick her with an AA b standard and leave out Abdi with 4 a's.

[JR1500]

If it was anyone other than AA picking the team he would already be in but knowing AA whow knows? Telling him he needs to break the aus record to qualify is stupid, the dude has run four A qualifiers, i don't understand how they can justify not picking him? maybe if he got  Nic Bideau as his manager he would be picked.

[akajan]

It is really sad that Youcef is in this position. He did have a hickup with his preparation (after troubles in Kenya) and wasn't very impressive at Nationals but at the same time some other athletes didn't compete at all (injuries etc.).
He obviously fulfill all criteria to be selected (4 A and 2 B qualifiers) and is coming to form with less then eight weeks before Olympics, it would be a scandal if they leave him out.
There are only 12 guys in the world who ran under 8:20 this year, only 2 ran under 8:12. From the past two races it is clear that in a good race Youcef can pull 8:15 - 8:20 right now.
Good luck in Bejing Youcef!!!

[Long Arms]

Youcef has been living and competing at the top level in Australia since 96. These games are to be his shining moment. I am certain the entire running community would back Youcef if not selected, but lets wait to see the outcome on June 23- D -DAY. Hopefully we can celebrate his selection.

He is Australia's 2nd best male distance runner after Mottram.


Arms

[scurry711]

What do they bother having A qualifiers for if they don't pick people?

[nvrgvup]

I hope they pick Abdi as I beleive he has had some really bad luck in major championships (and nationals last year and this year with his un-ideal prep) and I think this would be his year to do well. At his best I think he could acheive a decent result at Beijing.

[obiwan]

I see Abdi ran another A-qualifier, is there anything else he has to do to prove himself worthy of an Olympic spot?

[k_run]

Interesting that there is still no details on AA website about Abdi's A or Vic Mitchell's 9:42 which is her first A to go with her couple of B's.

[dcl]

The only automatic nominations are from performances at Osaka or the Nationals. Otherwise the selection criteria gives absolute discretion to the selectors. It seems that the criteria are deliberately framed so that the lawyers will have as little say as possible:

Athletes may be nominated to the AOC for selection in the 2008 Australian Olympic Team
for the 2008 Olympic Games, Beijing in either of two (2) ways:

(a) By right of performance in either of the 2007 International Association of Athletic
Federations (IAAF) World Championships, Osaka Japan on 25 August 2007 - 2
September 2007 or the Nomination Trials; or

Chosen at the discretion of the Selectors.

Further on, the "discretion" guidelines are:


(a) The Selectors’ opinion of the chances of the Athlete achieving a top 16 performance
in the relevant event at the 2008 Olympic Games, Beijing;
( Immediate current form;
© Quality of performances since the Nomination Trials;
(d) History of performances in previous Olympic Games, IAAF World Championships,
IAAF World Junior Championships, World Youth Championships and the 2006
Commonwealth Games.;
(e) History of performances in Elite International Competition;


There is no mention of A or B standards. The important thing for Lisa-Jane Weightman was that she did get an IAAF A qualifier (which was a AA B-qualifier). With only an IAAF B- qualifier she would not be allowed to compete (under IAAF rules), given that two A-qualified athetes were selected.

Edited by dcl, 18 June 2008 - 02:05 PM.

[Willo 75]

[/quote]
There is no mention of A or B standards. The important thing for Lisa-Jane Weightman was that she did get an IAAF A qualifier (which was a AA B-qualifier). With only an IAAF B- qualifier she would not be allowed to compete (under IAAF rules), given that two A-qualified athetes were selected.
[/quote]


So why then wasnt Scott Westcott selected? He met exactly the same criteria as Weightman!! He ran an IAAF "A" qualifier or if you look at it from an AA perspective, a "B" Qualifier. Given that only one male was selected (Troopy), based on what you said then he should be off to Beijing also.

Im not saying Weightman doesnt deserve to go, but if she does then so should Westcott.  

Abdi? Well he met what we, and he, all consider to be the required times and still hasnt been picked.....YET!

The only thing he has against him is his record at Major Champs.

I still feel however that he has earnt his spot on the team and should go.

Another example of AA's inconsistent way of selecting teams.

[wadistance]

JR1500, on Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM, said:

If it was anyone other than AA picking the team he would already be in but knowing AA whow knows? Telling him he needs to break the aus record to qualify is stupid, the dude has run four A qualifiers, i don't understand how they can justify not picking him? maybe if he got  Nic Bideau as his manager he would be picked.

not entirely true.  Michael Aish has run 3 x A qualifiers for New Zealand.... 27.45 (#3 all time NZ list) and 2.13 x 2 (#18 all time NZ list), yet ANZ wont select him. it sends a poor message to the athlete if they do whats reqiured, run fast enough to qualify, enough times, but they arent sent

[Steeple Guy]

The A and B Standards and even winning the National Championship in an Olympic Year seem all irrelevant (now) as selection is dominated by the phrase "selector discretion" - which translates to AA will select who they want to select and will freely discriminate on age, performance history and even  the colour of your spikes, if they need to and block the use of Court of Arbitration of Sport as much as possible, even if you wish to formally appeal a questionable decision. You are either anoited by AA or NOT! With the current policy for senior teams and recent history, the vast majority of Australia's national elite standard runners (Over 25) should retire and go fulfill their lives/use their talents in other ways because they are simply just not going to get to an Olympics or most other major Games/Titles. Their own national body will not support their own athletes. Similar to Kathy Lee's (AA Perf Mgr) comment at the 2001 national champs seminar in Brisbane - ... if you have not made a national team by 25-26, give up, you should go coach!!! - Stunned silence in the room. Ok then...maybe we should all go home and stop wasting everyone's time chasing times/national medals.

One A Standard (multiple qualifiers) or a B Standard (one qualifier) and proven top 1-3 competitive record should be enough (NB. The A & B's need looking at anyway - another issue). Athletics Australia exists for the sport, its development (would not know it after Olympic Park fire sale) and for its members and to grant selection to those among us who represent the best of all of us. But with this 'must win medals for funding' focus/obession to protect/enhance funding for AA admin/coaching jobs - an exclusionist policy as developed. If we had the sport professionally administered since 2000, we would have strong sponsorship and not be umbillicaled to the Sport Commision funding to cover the postage costs at St Kilda Rd. Demand standards and demand performances, but fill the god damn teams that we are entitled to as a nation. If its just funding, I am sure a sub 8:25 Steepler would go get a $20,000 loan, if it were just the cost preventing AA from selecting him for what he has earnt.

AA should be inclusionist - looking for ways to get the maximum number of athletes onto teams (not just Olympic) and proactively seek/create additional international comps (matches/challenges in track and CC/RR) for 1st and even 2nd tier national level athletes to compete in, to develop all talent, not just those juniors who step up in the early 20's but any athlete of any age, still producing times and motivated to improve. Selection issues surrounding both the Marathon and Steeple highlight this travesty and glaring injustice.

You may get just one shot at an Olympics and some career-driven bean counter who may not have even run themselves, gets to tweak the selection policy and make a bloody hard task near on impossible. I am sure AA have their well versed justification for the current policy - but their is no justification to totally devastate deserving Olympians. Is Britain currently skimping on their team for Beijing - I am sure they will blood anyone with half a qualifying time in every international comp between now and London 2012 and watch the Poms clean up on the track in 4 years time.

You want Green and Gold Olympic singlets to be hard won, but Dent, Abdi and Westcott have more than equalled the standard of recent past Olympians. It's a disgrace to not confer on them what they have earnt over their lifetime in Athletics. For a selector to say you need an Aussie record (8:15) and proven kick finish to make a team in the steeple is a joke (it could be won in 8:25) - let's be fair, who else has been forced to reach that level to get selected - the team would be low single figures (not a sprinter in sight 100-400M) if that was applied to the entire team. Why not demand a nobel prize, Brownlow or gold logie while you are there - it may be easier than getting selected. No wonder Tim Clarke (Georgie's Brother) went and played AFL footy at Hawthorn rather than try and make a Olympic Team!!!

It really is quite sad and life altering - making an Olympic team is the dream of any half serious athlete. Many years are sacrificed toiling in the sport. Careers, opportunities and relationships are all put 2nd, you deal with injuries and many obstacles and biggest one you face is the selectors. Once you are at the standard - the selection hurdle should be the easiest obstacle. When given a chance runners lift. Eg Chris Unthank at Atlanta - snuck into the team with an 8:29 high, got through the heats to the semis and frustratingly missed the final by one place (13th overall) after running faster than the top 4 in the other semi, with an 8:25 PB. He so easily could have not been selected - think Creighton, Robinson, Vander Kuyp in Barcelona 1992 - that selection call has still got to be a source of intense embarrasssment. They would not know athletic talent/potential if it ran into them.

It would all nearly make you go run for a Pacific Island or even worse NZ. Another strike for AA! I would vote Dr Daniel Green as AA President and the entire R4YL team as the board - the only way to get AA to change its stupidity - remove them politically. I would make a large donation to that fighting fund on principle alone.

Selection policies don't have to be like this. Wake up AA - Select athletes at the expense of less  team officials, coaches and support staff. Don't destroy dreams when many of you are 3 months from moving to administrating another sport - See post Athens/Keith Connor debacle. This issue makes me so angry - the athletes deserve better.

[Long Arms]

Great post steeple guy. AA have been good in selectin the majoriity of runners who have qualified- ie there are plenty of middle and long distance runners on the team- far more than any other athletic discipline. I agree that Dent and Westcott should have also been picked. Abdi should have been one of the first picked, now obviously Mitchell should be picked. Daniel Green for AA president- yes- great choice!

The bonus for Marty Dent and Australian (and hopefully world) running is that his missing out on the team in the steeple has probably been a catalist in him stepping back up to the marathon. I tipped 8 years ago that he could be Australia's next Deek and it is not too late. The thing now is that there are 2 or 3 young Aussies who are looking just as promising, if not more promising , than Marty for the 26 miles.


Arms

[Silent Bob]

Loving these posts above Arms and Steeple Guy - the treatment of the athletes is disgusting

Firstly to comment on the Marathon -
Lisa Weightman - Scott Westcott - Andrew Letherby all have Athletics Australia B's but IAAF A's. Scott infact Has 2 IAAF A's and 1 IAAF B. Scott 4th last Comm Games Andrew i think 5th and a medal at previous comm games.

The Selectors have discretion and they selected Weightman which is great but she has nothing to distinguish her from the men,there is no logical reason why she is a better choice than the two men. If she is in than the guys should be in - ie all in or all out.

As for selectors discretion it has proven above that it has to help if your coach is a selector!


2ndly the Steeple
Abdi with 4'As has to be robbed if not picked - he deserves to go (he has more A's if you go of IAAF criteria)
But Dent V Abdi is an interesting comparison

Dent has an A in the IAAF period (plus a B in 8m27) (AA's time frame shorter)
He has been undefeated last 12 months including 2-0 v 8m13 Kenyan this summer and 2-0 v Abdi
He beat Abdi last 2 Nationals
4th Comm Games (first non Kenyan behind two previous olympic champions) again beating Abdi his only Senior championship opportunity
He has  a 5-2 win loss record v Abdi last 3 seasons  both losses were marginal (ie 2.4 seconds and 1.5 seconds)
Dent was not selected for world champs last year (whilst abdi was and performed poorly) despite A qualifier,beating Abdi at Nationals and 4th Comm Games

Dent like Abdi is extremely fit running based on recent road form,

They both are worthy in my opinion and both capable of a final

Edited by Silent Bob, 19 June 2008 - 12:07 PM.

[dcl]

Willo 75,

My wording was possibly badly put. You're right, Westcott and Weightman are in the same boat and it therefore boils down to this all important "discretion" (in case we are in any doubt, the word appears 50 times in the selection document).

I meant that Weightman (like Westcott) could be considered for selection on the basis of having achieved an IAAF A-qualifier, despite "only" having achieved an AA B-qualifier.  The point being that under IAAF rules  a B-quaifier cannot be selected if there are A-qualifiers already chosen for that event.


Silent Bob said
The Selectors have discretion and they selected Weightman which is great but she has nothing ,there is no logical reason why she is a better choice than the two men. If she is in the the guys should be in - ie all in or all out.


The selectors would argue that they made a judgement call based upon the discretion criteria (see my earlier post), for example a judgement that Lisa-Jane is more likely to achieve top 16.

Come June 23 we'll know the exact team makeup when AA puts in their final nominations to the AOC. Others could be added on or by that date.

Edited by dcl, 19 June 2008 - 10:59 AM.

[Willo 75]

dcl, on Jun 19 2008, 10:24 AM, said:

Willo 75,

My wording was possibly badly put. You're right, Westcott and Weightman are in the same boat and it therefore boils down to this all important "discretion" (in case we are in any doubt, the word appears 50 times in the selection document).

I meant that Weightman (like Westcott) could be considered for selection on the basis of having achieved an IAAF A-qualifier, despite "only" having achieved an AA B-qualifier.  The point being that under IAAF rules  a B-quaifier cannot be selected if there are A-qualifiers already chosen for that event.

DCL,

I used a quote from your post merely to back up my point so apologies of it came across the wrong way. It wasnt an attempt to shoot you down in any way, but to simply point out that there is no consistency whatsoever in AA's selection process.

I had a conversation with an ex Aussie rep today, who was told a few years back that he was too old to be selected for an Aussie team despite the fact that he had finished ahead of others who were picked at the so called "selection trials" and he said that the sooner people stop running AA as a business the better it will be.

Thinking about this comment and it is spot on. The AA Board consists of both Rob Fildes and Eddie Mc Guire. Fildes does have an athletic background but is now heavily involved in the business side of things (he owns and runs a printing company started by his father). What are Eddies qualifications in this area?? Looking at the rest of the Board (AA Website) and one thing pops out a lot. Thats is the experiance of these people at a business level. Check it out for yourself.

Yes there are some people with a sporting background, but the general consensus (for me anyway) is that they are business people who are also ex athletes. Not ex athetes who are trying to increase the profile of athletics in Australia, but business people counting the dollars and looking at the bottom line.

Having someone like Daniel Green running the show with a team of equally passionate people around him would be extremely beneficial to athletics in this country. Can it happen?? Hell yeah. Will it happen? Who knows.

[k_run]

Willo 75, on Jun 18 2008, 08:51 PM, said:

There is no mention of A or B standards. The important thing for Lisa-Jane Weightman was that she did get an IAAF A qualifier (which was a AA B-qualifier). With only an IAAF B- qualifier she would not be allowed to compete (under IAAF rules), given that two A-qualified athetes were selected.



So why then wasnt Scott Westcott selected? He met exactly the same criteria as Weightman!! He ran an IAAF "A" qualifier or if you look at it from an AA perspective, a "B" Qualifier. Given that only one male was selected (Troopy), based on what you said then he should be off to Beijing also.

Im not saying Weightman doesnt deserve to go, but if she does then so should Westcott.  

Abdi? Well he met what we, and he, all consider to be the required times and still hasnt been picked.....YET!

The only thing he has against him is his record at Major Champs.

I still feel however that he has earnt his spot on the team and should go.

Another example of AA's inconsistent way of selecting teams.

Abdi's does have a Comm games Bronze medal at 1500m. In high risk events such as steeple there is always a risk of falls.

AA did a very good job at selecting a large team for the XC champs this year and got good results from the decision.

[nvrgvup]

Agree about Westcott and also beleive Letherby would be a good selection if he can get himself back to his best. AA may consider Weightman to show alot of potential improvement in the marathon considering it was her debut which may have given her the nod compared to a more experienced marathoner like Westcott. Westcott was still very unlucky, from what I've heard he was definetly in sub 2:12 shape in Beppu on a good day.

[Jimboy]

Well,Youcef is in the nominated team.Well done and good luck.

[k_run]

Good decision AA

[thomo]

One their better decisions.

Better than their choice of overseas competition for Aussies.

Performances were not great.

Buster ran 3min 36.66sec and Youcef a 3:42+ for 1500mtrs.

Was Youcef made to be a rabbit for Buster over the 1500mtrs?

[superflake]

Congratulations Abdi in getting on the team.  

[Steeple Guy]

Thank God we have at least one male steeplechaser - Australia has never had so much depth (sub 8:30) over the last 18 months. Great to see Mitchell also.

However, Dent & Westcott (and a few others) are "Olympians" in my book - when you think Nick Howarth (1500M 3:44 for Sydney 2000 and a single 3:39 B Qual 12 months before, along with 6 other Aussie Men...Bowden, Gorski etc) - you have to be feeling gutted/robbed. The question is....
will AA now consider Dent, Westcott and others too old for 2012.

Dr Dan Green for Athletics Australia President - who's with me?? Michael Kavanagh (Trent) - Chief Selector...

[Long Arms]

Well done ot Youcef and Victoria on being picked and to AA for picking them. I agree that Westcott and Dent should have been picked but if that was to be done for either of them it would have had to be months ago , especially for Marty who has focussed on longer stuff (and I guess fatherhood!)

Arms

[Colin]

Steeple Guy, on Jun 27 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

Dr Dan Green for Athletics Australia President - who's with me?? Michael Kavanagh (Trent) - Chief Selector...

You forgot the sarcasm emoticon

Its a good team that they picked, and should be competitive, actually one of the best teams yet. You have to pick athletes that are going to perform at that level.. don't worry about what other sports are doing.

... I think Abdi would have been given the 'heads up' earlier, hence his 1500m run the other day.

cheers

[Silent Bob]

Long Arms, on Jun 26 2008, 05:54 PM, said:

I agree that Westcott and Dent should have been picked but if that was to be done for either of them it would have had to be months ago , especially for Marty who has focussed on longer stuff (and I guess fatherhood!)

Arms

Arms

Hypothetical if Marty was picked for the UK do you think AA would release him !!!!! I wonder if he wishes he went done that path a few years ago ?

[hasbeen]

thomo, on Jun 26 2008, 09:58 PM, said:

One their better decisions.

Better than their choice of overseas competition for Aussies.

Performances were not great.

Buster ran 3min 36.66sec and Youcef a 3:42+ for 1500mtrs.

Was Youcef made to be a rabbit for Buster over the 1500mtrs?

No, not at all. Nick Bromley was pacing.

http://www.iaaf.org/...wsid=45471.html

[danieljohngreen]

Hi All

Sensational thread. I love all of the sentiments that have been listed above. Our current selection policy is an absolute disgrace. Idiots like Peter Fitzgerald are just making things even worse. If you like these types of topics you will love the next "From the Editor" in the upcoming edition of Run For Your Life, we will show you just how much of an idiot Peter Fitzgerald is.

Youcef should have been selected 3 months ago, so that he could just concentrate on his preparation. The fact that they waited until the last minute, just highlights there biases.

I think that main point out of this discussion is that we should not even have any selectors. The selection policy should be written so that we just sent every single person possible and when there are more than 3 A Qualifiers or more than 1 B Qualifiers for a single event we have a trial and the top 3 are selected, it should be just as simple as that.

And thanks for those crazy enough to think that I would make a good president of AA. I would love to work in this type of role, but just for an organisation that covers middle and long distance running. I have no passion or experience in pole vault or shot put and thus do not think that I would make any a good representative for them.

Looking forward to the future though, give it 5 years time and hopefully we (that is Australian Distance Runners) will have their own National Organisation independent of AA, yet powerful enough that AA will have to listen to our requests (or should I say demands).

Regards
Greeny

[Igor Stravinski]

danieljohngreen, on Jun 27 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

Sensational thread. I love all of the sentiments that have been listed above. Our current selection policy is an absolute disgrace. Idiots like Peter Fitzgerald are just making things even worse. If you like these types of topics you will love the next "From the Editor" in the upcoming edition of Run For Your Life, we will show you just how much of an idiot Peter Fitzgerald is.


Looking forward to the future though, give it 5 years time and hopefully we (that is Australian Distance Runners) will have their own National Organisation independent of AA, yet powerful enough that AA will have to listen to our requests (or should I say demands).

Regards
Greeny

First - Greeny , please don't compliment the chairman by calling him an idiot it is to good for that scumbag - it's more like he is some sick smart arse who takes pleasure in ruining an athletes dream

Second - Where do i pay for my  subscription for distance runners association

Edited by Igor Stravinski, 28 June 2008 - 10:45 AM.

[Long Arms]

Silent Bob, on Jun 26 2008, 08:46 PM, said:

Arms

Hypothetical if Marty was picked for the UK do you think AA would release him !!!!! I wonder if he wishes he went done that path a few years ago ?

Silent Bob,

I am pretty sure that an athlete must have lived in a country for the last 2 years (some countries more, some less possibly- anyway- a good timeframe) and have British citizenship....if it was before 2 years of permanent residency then AA may be able to block a release. Would they block the release? Who knows? Some other Cool Runner may have a better idea. I would only look more deeply into this situation if a runner I coached had to make such a decision. Certainly if they had been screwed like I reckon Marty has been screwed by AA then I would give the athlete my blessing to run for another country, knowing they deserved to join the elite "olympian" status.


Arms