29 replies to this topic

[mgi11a]

Just something I thought of after recently pacing a 1/2.

At about 18.5km I lost all my passengers, I was pretty much right on pace and toyed with the idea of dropping back to try and drag some back up, but at the risk fallling well behind myself.

The other thought was to someone who was ahead of me but fading who I could pick up and help them achieve there goal.

I chose to keep on pace and finished pretty much right on time,

Do any regular pacers or runners alike have a view on this?

Cheers

mgilla

[rohan]

just because you don't have people on your tail doesn't mean you aren't fulfilling a purpose.

there's the folks who dropped off who are now trying to keep you in sight and not drop off more than so many meters or so much time. (i've been in this boat). and the people who are trying to stay ahead of you.
and yes, those you might catch and who try to stick with you as their primary goal went out the window and your pace is now the backup goal.

[dmnz]

rohan, on Apr 8 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

just because you don't have people on your tail doesn't mean you aren't fulfilling a purpose.

there's the folks who dropped off who are now trying to keep you in sight and not drop off more than so many meters or so much time. (i've been in this boat). and the people who are trying to stay ahead of you.
and yes, those you might catch and who try to stick with you as their primary goal went out the window and your pace is now the backup goal.

agree, you're there to run a time and provide a guideline for others
that in itself is invaluable without directly pacing another runner with you


good on you for doing it anyway

[Peterhorse]

i hear ya brother  

was aiming to go "as close to even pace as possible and as close to time as possible". BUT altered the plan to try and be helpful but i don't it's the go for exactly the reason Rohan said.  i was a bit ahead by half way and purposely slowed for a bit to try let people catch up in the 13-17k period on the Corso and in hindsight that was a mistake i think. i had to speed up again to make the time and might have been a bit too quick for the last 1k.

on reflection i'd give it another go for sure if they'd have me... and try to stick to the orignal plan.

you nailed perfectly Mick - in fact, without markers or a garmin, i was pacing off you as much as myself.

Edited by Peterhorse, 08 April 2009 - 10:07 PM.

[RUN6ixty6ix]

mgilla,
          I did the 10k on sunday night. With no km markers i was relying on the pacers to know if i was  roughly on pace for 45min. the 95 min pacer disappeared fairly quickly, so each time we doubled back (end of green bridge, cansdale st, corso) i checked where you were and hoped you weren`t catching me. As it turned out i was pulling away from you so i figured i was going ok. At the end of of the race for me i was roughly 2min in front of you but your accurate pacing helped me heaps so thanks.
I hung around to watch the 1/2 finishers and your pacing was perfect.

[Pacermal]

I've successfully paced three 3:15 marathons (2 Melbourne and 1 Gold Coast - to within 1 minute of goal time) and I believe it is incumbent on the pacer to stick to pace regardless of how many drop off.  The race organisers have got you there to do this.  The pacer is the one constant that everyone is relying on to do his/her job.  I find that I usually pick up the 3 hr left overs and help them through to their 3:15.

Cheers,

[wombatoutofhell]

Using my moderator superpowers, I've split the is pacing lame arguement to it's own thread so this one can remain on mgi11a's original question.  Play nice all!

[Pacermal]

wombatoutofhell, on Apr 10 2009, 08:28 PM, said:

Using my moderator superpowers, I've split the is pacing lame arguement to it's own thread so this one can remain on mgi11a's original question.  Play nice all!

Thanks wombatoutofhell - what did you think by the way?  Was DRJH being offensive or not?

Edited by Pacermal, 10 April 2009 - 08:23 PM.

[undercover brother]

you did good mick.

[wombatoutofhell]

Pacermal, on Apr 10 2009, 07:48 PM, said:

Thanks wombatoutofhell - what did you think by the way?  Was DRJH being offensive or not?

As it happens no I didn't find it offensive-just a very odd analogy.  I can see how it could be taken that way though.

[Louie de Fly]

wombatoutofhell, on Apr 10 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

As it happens no I didn't find it offensive-just a very odd analogy.  I can see how it could be taken that way though.

Not offensive only a persons thoughts

Now we have a lame brain moderator that wants his view not some other ideas
so now we can't voice our views in future we will need permission to post

All  the best
lou

[walker1st]

splitting is good and should be used more often.
actualy it should be used just about after each of my post  

[Bellthorpe]

Louie de Fly, on Apr 11 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Now we have a lame brain moderator that wants his view not some other ideas
so now we can't voice our views in future we will need permission to post

How do you figure? As far as I'm aware no posts have been deleted, nor none censured.

It was a very sensible decision to split the thread, as it had diverged widely, and the original theme was being completely obscured.

Well moderated, moderator!

[Colin]

I thought that a post on how to pace yourself, training MP etc, was an adequate response on why the pacees fell off the bus in the first case, whether they were in the right pace group, and whether they were running a pace that suited themselves.

Perhaps why the moderator and others remain unfullfilled in marathon potential...they obviously already know everything there is to know in marathoning.

[loubee]

I have only run one race with a pacer, my first half at MM aiming for sub 2:00. I started with the group, moved off at the 8kish mark and continued the next 8ishk ahead of the bus but with Running Angel (who had a garmin so was keeping me up to date). When I lost her I was still ahead of the bus, passed by one pacer at the 18k mark and the other shortly after. I knew I had plenty of time to still come in at goal time by running 6min k's. I finished in 1:58:18.

Had I run even splits and stayed with them maybe I would have finished with them at 1:54/1:56 but my aim was to finish sub 2hr and I did. I don't know how many they lost or picked up along the way but I did think it was a big difference to come under a pace time. So yes I think you should stick to your pace regardless but your pace should be on target, not well below.

Anyway in little old Perth we only have enough runners to fill the races, not enough to give up their race too   so I'll have to keep learning about pacing myself to achieve my goals   .

[StellaBella]

loubee, on Apr 11 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

Anyway in little old Perth we only have enough runners to fill the races, not enough to give up their race too   so I'll have to keep learning about pacing myself to achieve my goals   .

We have pacers.... well we have a 3:30 bus for the Perth marathon.... and that's it!
Maybe you all should come over here and run  

[walker1st]

loubee, on Apr 11 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

Had I run even splits and stayed with them maybe I would have finished with them at 1:54/1:56

it is interesting that some races offer pacers also to nonround finishing times,

like 1:54  

[walker1st]

To Colin :
the question in the first post was NOT about why people do fall of the buss, if it usefull etc.

It was simply question in a dilemma of the baloon-flag carrier, what to do, when the bus get empty
NOT why it gets emty or if the bus existence is right or wrong.

mgi11a, on Apr 8 2009, 08:04 PM, said:

Just something I thought of after recently pacing a 1/2.

At about 18.5km I lost all my passengers, I was pretty much right on pace and toyed with the idea of dropping back to try and drag some back up, but at the risk fallling well behind myself.

The other thought was to someone who was ahead of me but fading who I could pick up and help them achieve there goal.

I chose to keep on pace and finished pretty much right on time,

Do any regular pacers or runners alike have a view on this?
Cheers

mgilla

so after topic split, I suggest to keep it strictly on the question of the buss driver - to wait for passengers or to keep driving empty bus to the schedule,

but it is paradoxical that they all came to splitoff topic anyway  

[twosheds]

Mgilla you did a great job and even if runners don't finish with you- many are noticing you- trying to stay in front or keeping you in sight. The hot conditions made it difficult for anyone to be on for a Pb  and us not getting the km markers out there made your job even more difficult.
I did the second half of Brissy narathon  once and it was a hot day- i held back to wait for runners and encourage them along- ended up finishing 2 mins over all alone anyway.
Ive had lots of great feedback about the pacers.

for what its worth i think the "lame" idea  on the other thread is a bit weird. No one makes anyone else do it- it helps a lot of people  have an enjoyable time. Why would anybody get upset about other people doing something so inoffensive?
Thanks
Two sheds

[wozzam]

mgi11a, on Apr 8 2009, 08:04 PM, said:

Just something I thought of after recently pacing a 1/2.

At about 18.5km I lost all my passengers, I was pretty much right on pace and toyed with the idea of dropping back to try and drag some back up, but at the risk fallling well behind myself.

The other thought was to someone who was ahead of me but fading who I could pick up and help them achieve there goal.

I chose to keep on pace and finished pretty much right on time,

Do any regular pacers or runners alike have a view on this?

Cheers

mgilla

as far as i'm concerned it's your job to hold an even pace the whole way and if thats too fast for your group maybe they were not prepared enough for the time they wished to achieve.

[Swaggers]

twosheds.  I don't think anyone need be upset.  Pacermal et al have taken offence at DrJH's et al opinions that pacing is a bit lame.  I guess you just have to add that to the list of pacemaker perils just as those of who shy away from the artificiality of setting up a pace group have to put up with the grumblings.

Quote

Was DRJH being offensive or not?

I think no.  Forming for and against groups is unhelpful Pacemal (unintentionally I am sure).

mgi11a  Both you and Glenda finished without anyone on board.  Your task is to run on pace and to be frank I don't know how you did it considering there was no K marks.  Job well done.  

Sometimes in life we have to make certain choices.  If you choose to be a pacer, you will have people who think it lame.  Some brave souls like DR JH, Colin, et al will tell you so.  So what?

I like every pacer i have ever had the pleasure of meeting.  I knock around with people who think running is lame. I still like them.  It is my choice to run and they are entitled to their opinion and their choice not to run.  And yes I used to be reminded that my running (especially at my age) is stupid.

It is your choice to be pacer and if others think it lame that is just too bad.   In the end we are all on the same journey and it's nice know you have fellow travellers around you who feel confident enough to share their opinion without feeling they are walking on thin ice.  I don't like the culture myself but I still respect that pacers have choosen differently to me -even if I thnk it somewhat lame way to run a marathon.  

I think the lamest thing about running is when people get injured or leave the sport from lack of support and encouragement.

Cheers,
Swagger.

Edited by Swaggers, 11 April 2009 - 05:17 PM.

[Cl@rkey]

Colin, on Apr 11 2009, 01:04 PM, said:

Perhaps why the moderator and others remain unfullfilled in marathon potential...they obviously already know everything there is to know in marathoning.

That's a pretty low blow Colin.

I might have to contact you directly so you can teach me how to fulfill my marathon potential so I can be a 2:3X marathoner too....


I'm still amazed that runners who at their best would have been running in a different post code to the pace groups get so worked up about the existence of pace groups, and feel they should enthusiastically warn everyone off them.

After some consideration and perhaps the completion of my own thoughts on the topic of what pacers should / should not do.  I used to think it would be great to take large groups across the line just under goal time.
I now believe that perhaps Pacers should not necessarily be referred to as group leaders or Pace Leaders, but rather the mobile time markers for people to use as they see fit during the event.

So for a pacer to do their job - in my opinion - they need to clear the starting congestion as smoothly as possible then work their way to the even splits required to hit the finish line at the time specified. Any 'on the run' adjustments should be minimal and not in response to the runners around the pacer.

If I ever pace again, I hope I get the privilege of sending the strong runners off the front of the group after a nice steady and even start and never seeing them again during the event. Just like I was able to last time I paced a marathon.  And if some other runners push just that little bit harder in the closing stages to make sure that they don't get passed by me as a pacer even though they were hurting, then that is cool too. And if I manage to drag some runners along for long enough so they finish quicker than if they ran on their own (just like the 3hr guys did for me in 2006), that is also cool.

If Colin can launch from his anti-pacer soapbox without trying to drag someone & their marathon performances down. That would be cooler still!!

[wombatoutofhell]

Louie de Fly, on Apr 11 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Not offensive only a persons thoughts

Now we have a lame brain moderator that wants his view not some other ideas
so now we can't voice our views in future we will need permission to post

All  the best
lou

Huh?????  Spitting the off topic posts to another thread is pushing my view over other ideas?  WTF?  If that's what I wanted I would have just deleted them.  I wont lower myself to name calling like you but seriously check before you run off at the mouth-not a single post was deleted or changed in any way, including the ones that some found offensive.
I should have put a link to the new thread-that was something I missed.

Colin, on Apr 11 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

I thought that a post on how to pace yourself, training MP etc, was an adequate response on why the pacees fell off the bus in the first case, whether they were in the right pace group, and whether they were running a pace that suited themselves.

Perhaps why the moderator and others remain unfullfilled in marathon potential...they obviously already know everything there is to know in marathoning.

Yes Colin-I'm a bloody expert and know everything there is to know.  I didn't realise that moving a seperate topic onto it's own thread made me so.  I wish I  knew earlier that that's how it's done.
The post you mention would be relevent in either, or both threads.  It was the third post you made-the first 2 were against pacers and not on this topic at all.

I can't be bothered answering critisms or explaining myself anymore so I wont-back to original topic please.

[fat bloke]

you can't beat a good debate

i have paced quite a few times.

WHY PACE? ............... usually for me its a chance to get a solid 3.15 marathon in the bag whilst in heavy training towards a future ultra.

If that wrankles some people fair enough, some people get pi$$ed off with the smallest of things.

I believe there are pros and cons with pacing, often the congestion early on as everyone jumps into little groups could annoy people.

at the end of the day even without pacers, i think we all work off of others in some way, regular runners know whos who around them, and often work off others to achieve their personal goal without even realising this fact.

my 2 bobs worth

cheers fats

Edited by fat bloke, 12 April 2009 - 11:37 AM.

[tim]

fat bloke, on Apr 12 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

i have paced quite a few times.

and you are my favourite pacer.

thanks for 2 Gold Coasts.

[Colin]

Clarkey of CP, on Apr 11 2009, 11:46 PM, said:

That's a pretty low blow Colin.

I might have to contact you directly so you can teach me how to fulfill my marathon potential so I can be a 2:3X marathoner too....


If Colin can launch from his anti-pacer soapbox without trying to drag someone & their marathon performances down. That would be cooler still!!

Clarkey,,,,if you read all the posts then within context it is not low.

The marathon performances -vs potential given times over other distances- are relevant to the pacers. If (imo) a pacer hasn't been able to run a marathon at an unassisted well judged pace to their marginal potential, then why should a group of 100 others believe that they will succeed off that person's pace?
Fair question? I think so.

As for the comment directed at the moderator- he has admitted that his marathon times do not equate to other times. At the same time he has also dismissed advice on training to achieve a certain pace etc, instead opting for pace groups. He then used his moderator powers to remove the post where that advice was given...so in the argument of pace groups vs training he has opted for the former and used his moderator powers to skew the debate away from the training aspect.
So why can't I point out that the pacing groups hasn't helped him achieve his potential? Again...fair question???

As for you doing a 2:3x...I'm not sure what sure what your 5km/10km times are etc...but if its around 20min (my guess) then I wouldn't think there was a chance...so I am not sure what you are trying to get at with that request...but I won't call it a cheap shot.

cheers

[Melruns]

Quote

The other thought was to someone who was ahead of me but fading who I could pick up and help them achieve there goal.

I chose to keep on pace and finished pretty much right on time

That's why sticking to even splits is a good thing for a pacer to do.  You never know what's going on in the heads of the runners who are still in view of you.

Quote

I now believe that perhaps Pacers should not necessarily be referred to as group leaders or Pace Leaders, but rather the mobile time markers for people to use as they see fit during the event.

As an occasional pacee, that's what I appreciate about pacers, they are a mobile time marker that reinforce numbers/times I already know.

[DontStop]

After about 20 years away from the sport, I took up running again 5 months before the 08 Melbourne Marathon. The last time I did a road race, there were no pacers: you just rocked up, ran your hardest, and either tried to win the thing or beat as many people as possible to the finish.

About four weeks out from the MM, I figured I was in shape to run somewhere between 3.15 and 3.30. I know how to pace myself, and my strategy for the day (given the hot weather forecast) was to take it out at around 3.30 pace, and crank it up a bit from there. So at the start line, I saw the 3.30 pacer, said g'day, and ran near him for the first 9k or so. I found this pretty useful, given that the start is always a bit chaotic, and at the very least it allowed me to settle into my goal pace for the first part of the race.

But personally, running with someone else's cadence and rhythm isn't my idea of a good run, so after about 9k I just ran my own race and gradually pulled away from the pacer. Ended up finishing in 3.23, which was pretty much where I thought I should be. I guess if I stuck with a bus for most or all of the mara, I either would have underperformed or gone out too hard and... well, underperformed.

This year, I'm training to run around the 3hr mark. If I can get away with going sub 3 on five runs a week, great. We'll see. And if I think I'm in 3hr shape, I'll run with the 3hr pacer for as long as it feels like it's 'my' pace. If I feel like I'm a bit shy of that fitness, I'll run by myself.

I don't have a problem with pacers, but I guess I'd question the sense of running with a pacer for 42k unless you're absolutely convinced that the time they're going to finish in is the very best time you can do on the day. And the odds of that happening are pretty bloody slim, I'd imagine.

And I absolutely agree that a pacer should stick to the pre-ordained pace, no matter how many drop off or run ahead. I reckon far more people use them as guides than actually run next to them. I know if I decide to go out at 3.05 pace for the first 25k or so, knowing that the 3.00hr pacer is up ahead and clearly visible at least gives me something to aim at.

Sure, I could use my watch and do the sums. But trying to run someone down is way more enjoyable and natural than obsessing about every 1k split and staring at my watch and doing math. And by the 35k mark of a marathon, my ability to calculate sums is severely limited anyway.

My conclusion: pacers are useful if you're smart about how you use them. But hanging off their heel for the entire race probably means you're selling yourself short.

[Cl@rkey]

I still think its a bit much for someone other than the individual to drag down their performance vs potential, even if they have admitted as much themselves. Its a bit nega-coach.... to me anyway.

Colin, on Apr 12 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

...I'm not sure what sure what your 5km/10km times are etc...but if its around 20min (my guess) then I wouldn't think there was a chance...

And I'm much faster than that these days, I reckon I'm good for 19m45s.....

[1409th]

Good on you Mgilla for giving something back into running.

To provide some thought on your original posting (and which is markedly differentiating myself from some others) I reckon a pacer just has to go on with it - even if the bus has become a unicyle! You might not have anyone alongside you but you can bet there are heaps of people thinking they need to "keep ahead of that pesky pacer". Obviously not you just what you represent! Conversely there will be others who saw you slide past at some earlier point and now they have found their second wind they are hunting you like a cheetah v the hare!

In my first race, I had the great pleasure of running with Digger for a while as he paced the 3.30 hour Sydney Marathon. Given Digger's ability to run and chat (and that he'd run 85 odd marathons at that stage) he passed on some very useful tips about running and training. It also took the surging out of my running i.e I started running a consistent pace and which is something I hadn't done well in the past. I probably would have still finsished the race but the tips were as handy then as they are now. Particularly the one that implicit one that goes "marathon running is a tough game - if you drop off - no one looks back..."

But don't we all just stand on the shoulders of our forbears?

Anyway good on you Mgilla.

Edited by 1409th, 14 April 2009 - 12:49 PM.