237 replies to this topic

[iRonnie]

I lived on a farm for most of my youth. Most of my relative are farmers or were farmers.  I owned one myself for a short while. I also worked in meatworks on and off for about 15 years.  I eat meat.  I saw one incident of malicious cruelty in that time. The meat industry is not a pretty place to work.  Animals are killed. The animals are not killed out of spite or malice. They are killed to feed people.

Crops are also a cruel industry.  Wild boars can't resist young and fresh corn, barley, wheat and sorghum.  A pack of pig dogs holding a wild boar is not a pleasent sight - even to the hardened person.    Abbatoir workers and farmers are not generally malicious in their work and business.  Yes there are some practices that need banning (feed lots). You vegetarians can chew on your egg and lettuce sandwich and take a high and moral stance with self-righteous indignation, but feeding a nation of people is bound to impact on other species in some way or other.

Bye the way, did you know that millions of mice will be poisoned this year so you can enjoy your cereal, bread, etc.  And how many koala and other wild life and the gene pools that coulod have followed lost their habitat so you could enjoy your lettuce sandwich?  Ever see a koala come down with a tree and run over by land clearers?  Of course, cattle can graze along side gum trees but you have to remove all other competing habitat for a lettuce farm.

Eggs. Organic eggs.  Sounds nice.  When the chicken sexers are done sorting the day-old chickens the males have no further use. So the males are often put on a hessian bag and placed in a tub to drown.  Thousands of them at a time. None of this is out of malice or a desire to be cruel.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes feeding a nation is more important than the impact on other animals and the sensibilities if ignorant middle-class city dwellers. . Or perhaps we could become ethical and not bait the mice and let the pigs destroy the grain crops and thus let humans taste a bit of starvation.  See how good it would feel to be "ethical" then.

Bye the way, I am for less cruel and better farming practices. But be realistic.

Edited by iRonnie, 21 October 2011 - 04:36 PM.

[iRonnie]

Quote

Have some sort of security complex... some deep seated grudge you can't let go of. Take a few chill pills & don't give us all the impression that you are some paranoid nutter... oh yes... that's right, I forgot.

More hypocrisy from the boy who is adamant that he always plays the ball - never gets personal. I never forget.

You want to be careful with that big lance of yours Matthew.  It is a scientific fact that most people sit within a metre of their computer. You just might take someones eye out.

Edited by iRonnie, 21 October 2011 - 04:38 PM.

[SpecBGT]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="https://www.youtube...._BtBsKUE?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

mmmm? Not a food source so not part of the food debate. Definitely a danger if running in those areas. Trying to link this in with the thread has found me wanting.  

[SpecBGT]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

I lived on a farm for most of my youth. Most of my relative are farmers or were farmers.  I owned one myself for a short while. I also worked in meatworks on and off for about 15 years.  I eat meat.  I saw one incident of malicious cruelty in that time. The meat industry is not a pretty place to work.  Animals are killed. The animals are not killed out of spite or malice. They are killed to feed people.

Crops are also a cruel industry.  Wild boars can't resist young and fresh corn, barley, wheat and sorghum.  A pack of pig dogs holding a wild boar is not a pleasent sight - even to the hardened person.    Abbatoir workers and farmers are not generally malicious in their work and business.  Yes there are some practices that need banning (feed lots). You vegetarians can chew on your egg and lettuce sandwich and take a high and moral stance with self-righteous indignation, but feeding a nation of people is bound to impact on other species in some way or other.

Bye the way, did you know that millions of mice will be poisoned this year so you can enjoy your cereal, bread, etc.  And how many koala and other wild life and the gene pools that coulod have followed lost their habitat so you could enjoy your lettuce sandwich?  Ever see a koala come down with a tree and run over by land clearers?  Of course, cattle can graze along side gum trees but you have to remove all other competing habitat for a lettuce farm.

Eggs. Organic eggs.  Sounds nice.  When the chicken sexers are done sorting the day-old chickens the males have no further use. So the males are often put on a hessian bag and placed in a tub to drown.  Thousands of them at a time. None of this is out of malice or a desire to be cruel.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes feeding a nation is more important than the impact on other animals and the sensibilities if ignorant middle-class city dwellers. . Or perhaps we could become ethical and not bait the mice and let the pigs destroy the grain crops and thus let humans taste a bit of starvation.  See how good it would feel to be "ethical" then.

Bye the way, I am for less cruel and better farming practices. But be realistic.

Good point. As I said before, not a food source but a threat to the environment. No qualms about wasting them for the better good.

[iRonnie]

SpecBGT, on 21 October 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

mmmm? Not a food source so not part of the food debate. Definitely a danger if running in those areas. Trying to link this in with the thread has found me wanting.  

Wild pigs destroy crops - a food source.  They are killed to protect that food source. Andrew is talking about cruelty in food production.  I assure it is a coincidence but please read Post No. 101.

Edited by iRonnie, 21 October 2011 - 04:44 PM.

[tim]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

You vegetarians can chew on your egg and lettuce sandwich and take a high and moral stance with self-righteous indignation, but feeding a nation of people is bound to impact on other species in some way or other.

Or perhaps we could become ethical and not bait the mice and let the pigs destroy the grain crops and thus let humans taste a bit of starvation.  See how good it would feel to be "ethical" then.

way to go with some broad sweeping generalisations, stereotyping and criticisms.

You eat meat does that mean you are the same as every meat eater on the planet can i just sum you all up with "you meat eaters"?

Edited by tim, 21 October 2011 - 04:54 PM.

[iRonnie]

Crop farmers allow pig hunters onto their properties to protect their crops. If you want to be truly ethical, don't eat food crops.

[tim]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

If you want to be truly ethical, don't eat food crops.

do you eat food crops?

[CCor]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

I lived on a farm for most of my youth. Most of my relative are farmers or were farmers.  I owned one myself for a short while. I also worked in meatworks on and off for about 15 years.  I eat meat.  I saw one incident of malicious cruelty in that time. The meat industry is not a pretty place to work.  Animals are killed. The animals are not killed out of spite or malice. They are killed to feed people.

Crops are also a cruel industry.  Wild boars can't resist young and fresh corn, barley, wheat and sorghum.  A pack of pig dogs holding a wild boar is not a pleasent sight - even to the hardened person.    Abbatoir workers and farmers are not generally malicious in their work and business.  Yes there are some practices that need banning (feed lots). You vegetarians can chew on your egg and lettuce sandwich and take a high and moral stance with self-righteous indignation, but feeding a nation of people is bound to impact on other species in some way or other.

Bye the way, did you know that millions of mice will be poisoned this year so you can enjoy your cereal, bread, etc.  And how many koala and other wild life and the gene pools that coulod have followed lost their habitat so you could enjoy your lettuce sandwich?  Ever see a koala come down with a tree and run over by land clearers?  Of course, cattle can graze along side gum trees but you have to remove all other competing habitat for a lettuce farm.

Eggs. Organic eggs.  Sounds nice.  When the chicken sexers are done sorting the day-old chickens the males have no further use. So the males are often put on a hessian bag and placed in a tub to drown.  Thousands of them at a time. None of this is out of malice or a desire to be cruel.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes feeding a nation is more important than the impact on other animals and the sensibilities if ignorant middle-class city dwellers. . Or perhaps we could become ethical and not bait the mice and let the pigs destroy the grain crops and thus let humans taste a bit of starvation.  See how good it would feel to be "ethical" then.

Bye the way, I am for less cruel and better farming practices. But be realistic.

[iRonnie]

tim, on 21 October 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

do you eat food crops?

Yes, I eat food crops.  And I don't crap on about how ethical my choice is either.

[iRonnie]

CCor, on 21 October 2011 - 05:21 PM, said:

So you don't like hearing alternative observations.

Edited by iRonnie, 21 October 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[iRonnie]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

    Abbatoir workers and farmers are not generally malicious in their work and business.  Yes there are some practices that need banning (feed lots). You vegetarians can chew on your egg and lettuce sandwich and take a high and moral stance with self-righteous indignation, but feeding a nation of people is bound to impact on other species in some way or other. ...

tim, on 21 October 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:

way to go with some broad sweeping generalisations, stereotyping and criticisms.You eat meat does that mean you are the same as every meat eater on the planet can i just sum you all up with "you meat eaters"?

My apologies Tim.  I know your position in relation to this topic so in some ways understand your response.  I was actually in my mind referring to those on this thread who make broad sweeping statements about abbattoir workers and farmers.  I am surprised you didn't notice that. I guess it only becomes an issue when those we agree with are stereotyped.

You ask:" ..can i just sum you all up with 'you meat eaters'?"
I think because of your responses here and elsewhere- in your mind- you already have Tim.

Edited by iRonnie, 21 October 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[tim]

I do agree that i have found some of the statements on this thread judgmental and necessary.  I guess i did not stand up and say anything because it was not about me.   My views and ethics have been and continue to evolve as I age.  I follow my path beacause for me it feels right to do so.  You follow yours because it is your path.  Maybe when I say i follow what I do because of ethics it is not correct for that seems to suggest that what i believe in is ethical and if you do not believe the same then you are unethical.  This is kind of the same with religion.  The religious version of the vegetarian now seems to be the atheists and the sites I see on the internets seem to mock Christians as being stupid.  I do not like or agree with that.  For me my religion, life and food choices are for me.  I do not need you to follow them to validate who I am.  

Today my son had a badge on that said "meat stinks", I said to him that I did not think that wasa  good badge to wear.  It is negative and attacks people who believe in a different thing to you.  maybe instead of finding the negative in what other people do we should find the positive in what we do and celebrate that.  I would like to see that more in everything we do.  To find joy in what we do and allow others to seek joy in what they do.  i see that in the plantpowered camp the little black pug run.  it is just about good food and good company.  She celebrates vegan food and it is just about the celebration and passion of cooking and eating.

[iRonnie]

tim, on 21 October 2011 - 06:18 PM, said:

I do agree that i have found some of the statements on this thread judgmental and necessary.  I guess i did not stand up and say anything because it was not about me.   My views and ethics have been and continue to evolve as I age.  I follow my path beacause for me it feels right to do so.  You follow yours because it is your path.  Maybe when I say i follow what I do because of ethics it is not correct for that seems to suggest that what i believe in is ethical and if you do not believe the same then you are unethical.  This is kind of the same with religion.  The religious version of the vegetarian now seems to be the atheists and the sites I see on the internets seem to mock Christians as being stupid.  I do not like or agree with that.  For me my religion, life and food choices are for me.  I do not need you to follow them to validate who I am.  

Today my son had a badge on that said "meat stinks", I said to him that I did not think that wasa  good badge to wear.  It is negative and attacks people who believe in a different thing to you.  maybe instead of finding the negative in what other people do we should find the positive in what we do and celebrate that.  I would like to see that more in everything we do.  To find joy in what we do and allow others to seek joy in what they do.  i see that in the plantpowered camp the little black pug run.  it is just about good food and good company.  She celebrates vegan food and it is just about the celebration and passion of cooking and eating.

Maybe we are more like minded than it seems.  Well said Tim.  That kind of talk influences more people to think about things than table thumping.

[tim]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Maybe we are more like minded than it seems.  Well said Tim.  That kind of talk influences more people to think about things than table thumping.

table thumping just spills your drink

[CCor]

iRonie. Its clear our views on what is ethical are different.  I understand why you have these opinions but what i don't understand is why you posted on this thread. I know the post was referring to crops and what not but this threat, started by Andrew H was not accusing people of being unethical. In fact he has regularly said things like "each to their own". So the only reason i can see that you posted such an "offensive'  hunting video with no explanation would be to get a rise out of the people posting here. I could be completely wrong? But to me its just a strange video to post, then to go on to say that Veg people shouldn't eat crops seems to be very aggressive.
I dont have a problem with alternative observation, I hear them all the time. It was the aggressive nature of the post.
E.g Bye the way, did you know that millions of mice will be poisoned this year so you can enjoy your cereal, bread, etc. And how many koala and other wild life and the gene pools that coulod have followed lost their habitat so you could enjoy your lettuce sandwich?"
Then you post another video of a dog ripping apart a pig... You have to be trying to get a rise out of people, posting videos like this on LIFE AS A VEGETARIAN RUNNER.
Sorry IRonnie if you don't agree but your comments are provocative .

[Davo]

CCor, on 21 October 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

I dont get it?

Neither do I.

[iRonnie]

CCor, on 21 October 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

iRonie. Its clear our views on what is ethical are different.  I understand why you have these opinions but what i don't understand is why you posted on this thread. I know the post was referring to crops and what not but this threat, started by Andrew H was not accusing people of being unethical. In fact he has regularly said things like "each to their own". So the only reason i can see that you posted such an "offensive'  hunting video with no explanation would be to get a rise out of the people posting here. I could be completely wrong? But to me its just a strange video to post, then to go on to say that Veg people shouldn't eat crops seems to be very aggressive.
I dont have a problem with alternative observation, I hear them all the time. It was the aggressive nature of the post.
E.g Bye the way, did you know that millions of mice will be poisoned this year so you can enjoy your cereal, bread, etc. And how many koala and other wild life and the gene pools that coulod have followed lost their habitat so you could enjoy your lettuce sandwich?"
Then you post another video of a dog ripping apart a pig... You have to be trying to get a rise out of people, posting videos like this on LIFE AS A VEGETARIAN RUNNER.
Sorry IRonnie if you don't agree but your comments are provocative .

AndrewH claimed he stopped eating meat for ethical reasons. It follows that he must see something unethical in eating meat. I could also get all suspicious and start making accusations about his agenda.

I posted the video to show people that vegetarianism has its ethical issues too.

Your use of the talking -ear off emoticon suggests to me that you do indeed have a problem with alternative positions.

I visited your site and the images there were of a similar kind. I was also furthering my argument that humans have an impact on other species.

I am sorry that you feel provoked.  It is my intention to balance certain vegetarians' claims to the ethical high ground. You seem to be spending a lot of time trying to portray in a negative light rather than addressiong my concerns.  I suppose that is easier than facing reality.  There are lot of people in this world and they haven't all the luxury of being a vegetarian ultra runner.

You have a blog and links to animal cruelty websites so you are clearly more invested in this issue than I.  Maybe the provocation you feel has more to do with your realisation that your vegetarianism also contributes to the suffering of animals.

Yes we could get into a mindless debate about your opinion that my posts are aggressive and I could counter that your posts are passive aggressive and you have clearly been blindsided by the vegetarianism- is- harmless propaganda - but oddly enough it is my ear that is hurting.

Edited by iRonnie, 21 October 2011 - 07:24 PM.

[CCor]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

AndrewH claimed he stopped eating meat for ethical reasons. It follows that he must see something unethical in eating meat. I could also get all suspicious and start making accusations about his agenda.

I posted the video to show people that vegetarianism has its ethical issues too.

Your use of the talking -ear off emoticon suggests to me that you do indeed have a problem with alternative positions.

I visited your site and the images there were of a similar kind. I was also furthering my argument that humans have an impact on other species.

I am sorry that you feel provoked.  It is my intention to balance certain vegetarians' claims to the ethical high ground. You seem to be spending a lot of time trying to portray in a negative light rather than addressiong my concerns.  I suppose that is easier than facing reality.  There are lot of people in this world and they haven't all the luxury of being a vegetarian ultra runner.

You have a blog and links to animal cruelty websites so you are clearly more invested in this issue than I.  Maybe the provocation you feel has more to do with your realisation that your vegetarianism also contributes to the suffering of animals.

Yes we could get into a mindless debate about your opinion that my posts are aggressive and I could counter that your posts are passive aggressive and you have clearly been blindsided by the vegetarianism- is- harmless propaganda - but oddly enough it is my ear that is hurting.

Brilliant

[iRonnie]

Quote

There have been two significant changes to my life since changing diets. The first was my daily headaches completely disappeared, I have not had one headache since becoming a vegetarian! The second thing that changed was my sleeping habits, almost every night I would have to take sleeping tablets to get to sleep, sometimes I would be up for hours even though my body was completely worn out. Once my diet changed I no longer need to take those pills and I am sleeping like a normal person again!

That is good to hear. There may, however, be other reasons why you felt better on a vegetarian diet.  A normal person who is sleeping well and seldom has headaches would not necessarily experience any benefit if they dropped meat from their diet.  Like you say you weren't necessarily normal. Common sense should tell you that there could be other reasons.    
Plenty of meat eaters sleep soundly and don't get headaches all the time. Why is it that whenever the vegetarian pedants see something quite flawed like AndrewH's statement they gloss over it because it doesn't fit their agenda or beliefs?    

I was a vegetarian for two years and I felt okay at first but after a while I lived to regret that choice and I also know, quite well, an Australian age -group record holder who eats meat regularly and ate a big juicy steak the night before he set an Australian 55+  age-group record of sub 2:40 for the marathon .  If I made that statement in support of meat eating, I am sure the vegetarians who marvel at Andrew's amazing turn around would jump all over my statement - or me personally, as has been the case so far on this thread.

Having said that, I would expect  some criticism  because it is not evidence that can be used for the everyman.  It is an experience of one. And we are all different.  It is an observation that counters  Andrew's observations above.   In the end it is a personal choice. But better to be based on a big picture than a narrowed  view of the situation.

A serious thread on ultra running and the vegetarian and vegan lifestyle doesn’t need to mention meat eating or ethics.   To do so is to open the thread up to those with set agendas; and criticism from those runners whose choices are questioned and presented in a negative light. AndrewH , if want to talk about vegetarian lifestyle, that is what you talk about.

[iRonnie]

Davo, on 21 October 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:

Neither do I.

As Schopenhauer says: “When the heart resists, the mind will not accept.”

[CCor]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:

That is good to hear. There may, however, be other reasons why you felt better on a vegetarian diet.  A normal person who is sleeping well and seldom has headaches would not necessarily experience any benefit if they dropped meat from their diet.  Like you say you weren't necessarily normal. Common sense should tell you that there could be other reasons.    
Plenty of meat eaters sleep soundly and don't get headaches all the time. Why is it that whenever the vegetarian pedants see something quite flawed like AndrewH's statement they gloss over it because it doesn't fit their agenda or beliefs?    

I was a vegetarian for two years and I felt okay at first but after a while I lived to regret that choice and I also know, quite well, an Australian age -group record holder who eats meat regularly and ate a big juicy steak the night before he set an Australian 55+  age-group record of sub 2:40 for the marathon .  If I made that statement in support of meat eating, I am sure the vegetarians who marvel at Andrew's amazing turn around would jump all over my statement - or me personally, as has been the case so far on this thread.

Having said that, I would expect  some criticism  because it is not evidence that can be used for the everyman.  It is an experience of one. And we are all different.  It is an observation that counters  Andrew's observations above.   In the end it is a personal choice. But better to be based on a big picture than a narrowed  view of the situation.

A serious thread on ultra running and the vegetarian and vegan lifestyle doesn’t need to mention meat eating or ethics.   To do so is to open the thread up to those with set agendas; and criticism from those runners whose choices are questioned and presented in a negative light. AndrewH , if want to talk about vegetarian lifestyle, that is what you talk about.

iRonnie, again with the passive aggressive. Why?
I dont understand why you feel the need to belittle someone over their ethics and their lifestyle choice. Yes, he and I stopped eating meat because we have ethical issues with meat. If YOU don't have an ethical issue with it thats fine. But dont tell people that THEIR ethics are wrong.  Your other argument that we shouldn't eat crops... In your own words "be realistic".
We have completely hijacked this thread. If you would like to continue this conversation you can PM me. But i am not going to continue this on Andrews thread.

[freespiritfitness]

Well I've gotta say I'm a bit disappointed in coolrunning.

Admittedly I've been away for a while but in the good old days it would not have taken this long for the irrelevant videos of pig dogs and other nutjobbery to hit the boards!

People often define a good friend by the fact that you can spend years apart and then pick up the same conversation without any awkwardness.

It's great to be back.

[Kibbs]

Welcome back Freespirit, I think you picked the wrong topic to view first haha. Discussions like these always get a little tense, however if it is any positive I learnt quite a bit reading through those posts about people's opinions!

I always had no problem with people eating meat, even if I have not done so since the age of seven or so... I always thought the problem was the amount of meat people eat. You can't expect great production practices when a nation's demand wants best quality, biggest proportions for the lowest price. Maybe if the demand was lowered (on peoples own terms not forced or attacked into believing someone else's view) those industries could start looking towards the issues of cruelty and such discussed. Just food for thought =)

[freespiritfitness]

Demand for meat has been steadily dropping for a while now but this was never more apparent than during the recent live export debate.

http://www.unleashed...opic.php?t=5499

This would seem to indicate that the issue of cruelty is major driver of reduced consumption rather than something to be looked at as an afterthought.

Yesterday's empty rhetoric from Meat and Livestock Australia in response to the Australian government's gutlessness in rejecting mandatory stunning of animals in overseas abattoirs was also testament to this.

Meat producers are scared and rightly so. What was essentially a self regulating industry has been exposed as cruel,lazy,weak and inhumane.

My argument is the same as before, make your own choices but make them well informed choices.

I'm sure i ronnie makes a valid point about crops being problematic as well. I don't know enough about those industries to comment.

Anybody with an autoimmune illness will be interested in the growing evidence base for a vegan diet and vast improvements in those conditions,the reasons continue to add up.

I'm still waiting for one coherent, scientific argument for eating meat and I don't mean those mindless ads from a few years ago in which Sam Neill danced around like a prat.

[SpecBGT]

freespiritfitness, on 22 October 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for one coherent, scientific argument for eating meat and I don't mean those mindless ads from a few years ago in which Sam Neill danced around like a prat.

Our evolution has been that of an omnivore. I suppose you could argue that as 'thinking' beings we are able to make choices about what we eat. BTW, if you happened to own a dog, would it be on a vegetarian diet?

[freespiritfitness]

SpecBGT, on 22 October 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Our evolution has been that of an omnivore. I suppose you could argue that as 'thinking' beings we are able to make choices about what we eat. BTW, if you happened to own a dog, would it be on a vegetarian diet?

No a dog is designed to eat meat.

[tim]

There are good vegan pet foods out there.

[walker1st]

SpecBGT, on 22 October 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Our evolution has been that of an omnivore.

who told you so ?

that actor on TV comercial, who is such a good friends with monkey ?

[SpecBGT]

freespiritfitness, on 22 October 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

No a dog is designed to eat meat.

And we weren't?

[freespiritfitness]

Well that probably depends on which evolutionary scientist you're listening to but you answered the more relevant question yourself.

We have evolved to a point where meat eating is a luxury rather than a nutritional necessity and in the vast majority of cases it is a health liability ( see The China Study et al.)

This means that it is now down to a choice, so watch 'earthlings' read the China Study and then make your choice.

To feed a dog on a vegan diet would be tantamount to putting unleaded petrol in a diesel car,  I would not sacrifice the health of an animal on the altar of my own ideology  but I do feed my dog free range chicken although even that definition seems a little blurry at present.


Steve Pavlina wrote a great piece on changing his diet and  noticing greater mental clarity among other things, a quality that is sorely lacking in today's world.

[tim]

here is the link veganpet.com.au

i fed my dog on this for many years and he was a very healthy and happy dog.

Edited by tim, 22 October 2011 - 02:31 PM.

[walker1st]

SpecBGT, on 22 October 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

And we weren't?

that is correct

the cat comes over the fence every day and only eats seaweeds from me

[freespiritfitness]

tim, on 22 October 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

here is the link veganpet.com.au

i fed my dog on this for many years and he was a very healthy and happy dog.

Thanks Tim I'll look it up.

[SpecBGT]

freespiritfitness, on 22 October 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

We have evolved to a point where meat eating is a luxury rather than a nutritional necessity and in the vast majority of cases it is a health liability ( see The China Study et al.)

By this I assume you mean in the last couple of hundred years. Before that I doubt whether the option was available for the majority.

[freespiritfitness]

tim, on 22 October 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

here is the link veganpet.com.au

i fed my dog on this for many years and he was a very healthy and happy dog.

Hmm, I did have a look at the site and while I have enormous respect for your sentiment as a vegan I'm not sure the 'scientific evaluation' section is as rigorous as it could be. I'm glad your dog had a healthy and happy life.

Rudi, my cat's favourite food is Pringles, closely followed by meat.

I am absolutely convinced that a vegan diet is the best alternative for humans, but as far as animals go, I'm yet to see good evidence.

I'm happy to be enlightened, our 1 dog and 4 cats are looking at the computer nervously!


ps runclub is on Monday night...did I mention that?

http://www.freespiri..._run_clubs.html

[CCor]

SpecBGT, on 22 October 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Our evolution has been that of an omnivore. I suppose you could argue that as 'thinking' beings we are able to make choices about what we eat. BTW, if you happened to own a dog, would it be on a vegetarian diet?

I have a veg dog. Sometimes she eats flies
We make the food ourselves.She loves it

[freespiritfitness]

SpecBGT, on 22 October 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

By this I assume you mean in the last couple of hundred years. Before that I doubt whether the option was available for the majority.

No not really, entire cultures were vegetarian many centuries ago, particularly those countries with predominantly Hindu and Buddhist populations.

[tayebeh]

freespiritfitness, on 22 October 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

Well that probably depends on which evolutionary scientist you're listening to but you answered the more relevant question yourself.

We have evolved to a point where meat eating is a luxury rather than a nutritional necessity and in the vast majority of cases it is a health liability ( see The China Study et al.)

This means that it is now down to a choice, so watch 'earthlings' read the China Study and then make your choice.

To feed a dog on a vegan diet would be tantamount to putting unleaded petrol in a diesel car,  I would not sacrifice the health of an animal on the altar of my own ideology  but I do feed my dog free range chicken although even that definition seems a little blurry at present.


Steve Pavlina wrote a great piece on changing his diet and  noticing greater mental clarity among other things, a quality that is sorely lacking in today's world.

Apparently dogs live healthier and younger living vegan, the opposite is the case with cats though!! Cats are apparently truly omnivores!

[Nickelass]

freespiritfitness, on 22 October 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

No not really, entire cultures were vegetarian many centuries ago, particularly those countries with predominantly Hindu and Buddhist populations.

Many cultures would be shocked at feeding dogs on a meat diet.  I many places meat is a scarcity and dogs would be extremely lucky to get anything beside the entrails - and that rarely.

[tayebeh]

iRonnie, on 21 October 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

I lived on a farm for most of my youth. Most of my relative are farmers or were farmers.  I owned one myself for a short while. I also worked in meatworks on and off for about 15 years.  I eat meat.  I saw one incident of malicious cruelty in that time. The meat industry is not a pretty place to work.  Animals are killed. The animals are not killed out of spite or malice. They are killed to feed people.

Crops are also a cruel industry.  Wild boars can't resist young and fresh corn, barley, wheat and sorghum.  A pack of pig dogs holding a wild boar is not a pleasent sight - even to the hardened person.    Abbatoir workers and farmers are not generally malicious in their work and business.  Yes there are some practices that need banning (feed lots). You vegetarians can chew on your egg and lettuce sandwich and take a high and moral stance with self-righteous indignation, but feeding a nation of people is bound to impact on other species in some way or other.

Bye the way, did you know that millions of mice will be poisoned this year so you can enjoy your cereal, bread, etc.  And how many koala and other wild life and the gene pools that coulod have followed lost their habitat so you could enjoy your lettuce sandwich?  Ever see a koala come down with a tree and run over by land clearers?  Of course, cattle can graze along side gum trees but you have to remove all other competing habitat for a lettuce farm.

Eggs. Organic eggs.  Sounds nice.  When the chicken sexers are done sorting the day-old chickens the males have no further use. So the males are often put on a hessian bag and placed in a tub to drown.  Thousands of them at a time. None of this is out of malice or a desire to be cruel.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes feeding a nation is more important than the impact on other animals and the sensibilities if ignorant middle-class city dwellers. . Or perhaps we could become ethical and not bait the mice and let the pigs destroy the grain crops and thus let humans taste a bit of starvation.  See how good it would feel to be "ethical" then.

Bye the way, I am for less cruel and better farming practices. But be realistic.

Eating animal products is a major contributor to human starvation, please do more research, if no animals are consumed there will be lots of food for all human beings!! Plus there are lots of things not right about the way agricultural practice are conducted but still vegan is less problematic than meat eating I believe!

[walker1st]

listening to Alan Jones the other day, it seems the issue is solved forever.

Mining companies now have license or own all the soil suitable for farming

so soon no animal farms, no meat in supermarkets, no meat in takeaway shops

however also no vegs or grain, so we all need to convert to coal digestion

I can see shortly how on CR we are going to argue if it is better to eat black coal or the brown one

and tease each other, what is better to run ultra on

[CCor]

tayebeh, on 22 October 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Apparently dogs live healthier and younger living vegan, the opposite is the case with cats though!! Cats are apparently truly omnivores!

Yeah cats need taurine, its found in Red Bull...

walker1st, on 22 October 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

listening to Alan Jones the other day, it seems the issue is solved forever.

Mining companies now have license or own all the soil suitable for farming

so soon no animal farms, no meat in supermarkets, no meat in takeaway shops

however also no vegs or grain, so we all need to convert to coal digestion

I can see shortly how on CR we are going to argue if it is better to eat black coal or the brown one

and tease each other, what is better to run ultra on

HAHa awesome  

[Bellthorpe]

tim, on 22 October 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

There are good vegan pet foods out there.

I don't believe I could eat food made from vegan pets.

walker1st, on 22 October 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

listening to Alan Jones the other day …

You were what?

[SpecBGT]

tayebeh, on 22 October 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

Eating animal products is a major contributor to human starvation, please do more research, if no animals are consumed there will be lots of food for all human beings!! Plus there are lots of things not right about the way agricultural practice are conducted but still vegan is less problematic than meat eating I believe!

So we are going to ship grains, fruit and veg to the Inuits and Mongols (for example) to stop the killing of animals for food?

[walker1st]

SpecBGT, on 23 October 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

So we are going to ship grains, fruit and veg to the Inuits and Mongols (for example) to stop the killing of animals for food?

australia needs to solve world , overseas issues because of what ? because is not able to solve any of the domestic shit ?

australia needs to solve all 3 issues of the killing triangle, to clean killing energy and culture of this nation and help to settle happiness on this contonent

1. killing of animals, for food for money for pleasure for fun and just for the act of killing itself
from farming to BBQ, from hunting and "sport" hunting, stop connecting celebration of whatever to killed and killed carcases
this animal killing sets energy of killing as something OK acceptable or necessary, which leads to issues 2 and 3

2. killing of civilians in foreign countries, by the whims of canberra pollies, pretending something needs to fix somewhere overseas to cover up the desire simply to go and kill, however often it is about sideways benefits like more power more money more opium and more oil, but mostly just for the heck of killing and caussing suffering

3. little criminals, those not officially enlisted to kill in name of politics killing civilians in friendly neighborhoods, why would they not, it is OK by everybody and it is OK by pollies, how is 1 person murder a crime when mass murder is not ?


so if we are after good life around here

lets deal with domestic shit and stop pretending we can understand foreign cultures, nations and solve their issues.

[RunningKid]

Thanks everyone for all of your comments so far! It has been very interesting to read everyone's posts, some of them are really informative, some funny and some are plain stupid but that's still entertaining to read Obviously with these sorts of posts there are going to be trolls hanging around wanting some kind of reaction to their uneducated posts but just ignore them and they will eventually go away Stay positive

[MrUniqueName]

I've just finished my first week as a 'pescetarian' - don't ask me how to pronounce it, I only discovered the word today! But I've cut out all red meat and chicken, with the only meat I get coming from seafood (tuna and salmon mostly).

At this stage I'm not feeling any better or worse yet, but then again there are other areas of my diet I really need to work on as well. It's still very early days as well so I'll just keep going and see what happens!

[AlunDavies]

CCor, on 22 October 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

I have a veg dog. Sometimes she eats flies
We make the food ourselves.She loves it

Hi CCor

I'm in the 'each to their own camp' but sorry, your dog is not a vegetarian.  That would imply choice where the reality is that the diet is imposed (whether she loves it or not).  I'd eat my hat if she turned her nose up at a sausage or some such?



To suggest we haven't evolved to eat 'some' meat and that it's a luxury is a bit daft.  'Hunter Gatherers' is what we are and the issue here (if there is one) is an industrial issue (whether it be livestock or crops).

Either way, the thread, while a little entertaining, is a far cry from its initial intent, in my opinion.  Though, I have to say, I agree with Ron to a point and Tim (is that a contradiction), in particular Tim's religion analogy.  To defend one's position just by making your detractors wrong is pretty pathetic.  An informed position is one that is informed on both sides of a debate, surely?  Not too much of that around here.

[tim]

AlunDavies, on 28 October 2011 - 09:24 AM, said:

Hi CCor

That would imply choice where the reality is that the diet is imposed (whether she loves it or not).

I am not going to argue whether it is right or wrong but I do not think there is much choice in a dog's life.  i imagine if Dogs had the choice they would be roaming the streets as packs eating small children, smelling each others bums and rolling in dead birds and stuff.  

I like this pic about dogs.