28 replies to this topic

[johnnyboyrun]

Hey,

I come from Triathlon background. I have done a few IM's and stand alone marathons and i know these 2 races that i have entered are different beasts to anything i have done before... i was just wondering if anyone else would be doing a similar thing and what training methods you would be using?

back to back long runs or you  prefer to split them up? Will riding my bike(long rides) be usefull? If 5kg a good amount to train with in my pack?
Should i include alot of stair running sets?

thanks for your help

[Rico]

Triathletes seem to have a pretty good record in 6ft.

[mictim]

Bike rides only useful to a degree - there's no substitute for flogging yourself up and down some big hills on foot.  Back to back long runs will be good to get used to the distance, after that it depends on if you're aiming to finish, or finish with a flourish.  If it's the latter I would intersperse your distance with some speed training over shorter distances.  I do a real mixture of both, once I'm happy with my distance training I do a bit of speed and then a fair bit of thinking about it.  Important that.

For TNF100 5Kg is plenty.  Get used to drinking/eating while on the move and try to wean yourself off those carbo gel things if you usually use them a lot.  I'm not convinced they do a lot plus if I had a dollar for all the sachets you see on the route I'd be rich man...  They're not biodegradable... Get my drift...?

Stair running sets might be useful, I've never tried them, usually get the lift.

Also get used to running trails at night where foot placement is important.  And using a torch to run with.  Don't get one that's brighter than the sun, it seriously damages your enjoyment of where you are.  Try to get used to running without one using the moonlight.  Of course there's no guarentee that you'll see it on the run.  And as for Ipods....

[vstaR]

Johnny, MicTim has provided some useful tips here.

From my experience doing NF100 training runs with triathletes making the transition (and the same can be said for some road marathoners), the toughest change is stairs, hills and technical track - none of which you typically find on a triathlon of any length.

On SixFoot, Nellies Glen and the single track down to the river will be your biggest challenge, not the distance if you've done a few IM's. Your normal training for an IM will help deliver a decent SixFoot, cycling can help with hill climbing (either running or power walking which most will need to do!).

NF100 is a different package - as Mictim says, forget gels. You need real food. Take a look at previous NF100 race threads and look at the race reports to see what people are eating and drinking 'on the day'. The smart ones will have eaten/drunk the same stuff in training. As to weight, you're gonna have at least 2kg of fluid, plus some food plus all of the mandatory gear. Some days I've had up to 7.5kgs when trying to replicate a 'race pack', so you may as well train with a weight you're likely to carry. Again, this is something not common in triathlons or marathons, and the shoulder pain, chafing, back soreness etc of not being race ready re running with a pack has contributed to the "bad day" of many a good athlete.

Remember, unless you're expecting a sub-10hr NF100, you're going to have sections of walking, walking and eating, running and chewing, running/walking with wet feet......going down 800 steps with 60km in your legs means using muscles you may not usually work out, and I'm not sure if the Eastern subs can provide the sort of terrain you'll be facing.

No doubt, there'll be a heap of training runs on the course (for both races), and some will be advertised on this site. Do your best to join some of these runs - it'll do wonders for your ability and your confidence!

Good luck.

[Pasty]

I tick all those boxes (IM, 6ft, TNF100).  

I think the biggest change is getting used to long (really long) periods of time on your feet, running at night, some (limited) navigation skills (so that you don't start doubting yourself when tired).   I wont train longer than about 4 hours (though some of the rogaines planned are 24hrs).

Personally, a lot of long slow runs, some rides up to about 3 hours max, and as many rogaines and long trail races as I can do between now and May.    Lots of calf and core stuff as well.

Nailing your nutrition and foot care is probably the most important thing tho.  Both can stop you easily.

[buzzlightyear]

vStaR covers pretty much all of it.

Please do not take it the wrong way and this is saying it with a different form of respect for those on Tri coming into Ultras (more spec TNF100)

Having being on both side of the fence (as a runner and as a TNF100 'front-of desk'), there are a lot of Triathletes who went into TNF100 with lots of confidence of doing well (Many with good Ironman times, including a few of sub 10hours!) This is esp evident when at rego, you see people showing up with Hawai Ironman / port macquarie..etc...)

Unfortunately, thats the exact same group of people who struggled to get from CP4 to CP5 ; Or are completely spent @ QVH CP and wonder why their training let them down, sneaking in under 20 hours....

I for one cannot swim 350m, let alone 3.5km. And to cycle 180km and then run a marathon, while I think doable, requires a disipline person. I am happy to just run, run and run. And thats where TNF100 is a different event all together. Rico is right, Triathletes  have a good record with 6FT, with one of them in the top 10 position 2010! 6FT being a sprint Ultra has the same "sprint" elements of Tri.

TNF involves the carrying of the pack, the runs, the walking (of flats), the walking(of hills), the walking (of stairs), the passing (of farts and runners...) You fight to get a space at the start of the swim, here be prepare to fight to get to the bottle neck (20m after start of 6FT ; jamison valley towards Golden stairs for TNF100)

On that note, if johnyboyrun is able to apply the same discipline and work specific exercise, I say a first time sub 14 is way within your ability...

p/s: 5Kg is excessive. You wouldn't cycle with weights on your bike would you? At least I wouldn't  

Edited by buzzlightyear, 23 December 2010 - 01:58 PM.

[Pasty]

Quote

I for one cannot swim 350m, let alone 3.5km

That would be 3.86km Buzz.

That said, I know triathletes who hated 6ft, mainly because of the trails, and the need to concentrate the whole time.  Everyone is different.

[SlowManiac]

pastyboy, on Dec 23 2010, 03:08 PM, said:

That would be 3.86km Buzz.

That said, I know triathletes who hated 6ft, mainly because of the trails, and the need to concentrate the whole time.  Everyone is different.

Also they couldn't stop every 5 minutes for a latte.

And their calf socks got mud on them.

[Pasty]

SlowManiac, on Dec 23 2010, 03:18 PM, said:

Also they couldn't stop every 5 minutes for a latte.

And their calf socks got mud on them.

Ha, yep; pretty much true.

Everyone has a different path that leads them to running an Ultra.  The trick is getting the skills that will allow you to be confident in what you do, then to execute it well in a race.  Turning up uninjured and in good shape is half the battle.
Personally heading out for a 12hr or 24hr Rogaine is the most rewarding for me - feet, nutrition, nav, endurance and especially the concentration are all put to the test.  Perfect training for TNF.

[johnnyboyrun]

vstaR, on Dec 23 2010, 01:59 PM, said:

Johnny, MicTim has provided some useful tips here.

From my experience doing NF100 training runs with triathletes making the transition (and the same can be said for some road marathoners), the toughest change is stairs, hills and technical track - none of which you typically find on a triathlon of any length.

On SixFoot, Nellies Glen and the single track down to the river will be your biggest challenge, not the distance if you've done a few IM's. Your normal training for an IM will help deliver a decent SixFoot, cycling can help with hill climbing (either running or power walking which most will need to do!).

NF100 is a different package - as Mictim says, forget gels. You need real food. Take a look at previous NF100 race threads and look at the race reports to see what people are eating and drinking 'on the day'. The smart ones will have eaten/drunk the same stuff in training. As to weight, you're gonna have at least 2kg of fluid, plus some food plus all of the mandatory gear. Some days I've had up to 7.5kgs when trying to replicate a 'race pack', so you may as well train with a weight you're likely to carry. Again, this is something not common in triathlons or marathons, and the shoulder pain, chafing, back soreness etc of not being race ready re running with a pack has contributed to the "bad day" of many a good athlete.

Remember, unless you're expecting a sub-10hr NF100, you're going to have sections of walking, walking and eating, running and chewing, running/walking with wet feet......going down 800 steps with 60km in your legs means using muscles you may not usually work out, and I'm not sure if the Eastern subs can provide the sort of terrain you'll be facing.

No doubt, there'll be a heap of training runs on the course (for both races), and some will be advertised on this site. Do your best to join some of these runs - it'll do wonders for your ability and your confidence!

Good luck.

Cheers guys ,

Your feedback is inavaluable.
I plan on getting at least 6 runs in up in the mountains, maybe more if time permits.
And yes you are absolutely right as eastern suburbs just wont deliver the sort of terain im after.
Im really going in to TNF 100 with no time goal. I just want to prepare my body and mind as best as possible.
Once again thanks for your input!

Edited by johnnyboyrun, 23 December 2010 - 02:44 PM.

[Kaos]

I'll be doing both, and much like others have no goals other than survival. I'm training with NRG and very happy so far. I really have to fill in the time between these events to get ready for TNF100.

Please keep the tips coming!


....and you can hassle triathletes as much as you like, I'll never be one!

Adam

[fist]

Why can't TNF100 be done with gels?  I'm not a chemist, but don't gels have carbs just like "real food"?  Am I missing something here?

Good luck with your training Johnny.  My tip is to always run holding a brick - it makes you super tough.

[johnnyboyrun]

fist, on Dec 23 2010, 09:41 PM, said:

Why can't TNF100 be done with gels?  I'm not a chemist, but don't gels have carbs just like "real food"?  Am I missing something here?

Good luck with your training Johnny.  My tip is to always run holding a brick - it makes you super tough.

Cheers Fist,
will sort out my nutrition for race in the next month or so

[Brick]

fist, on Dec 23 2010, 09:41 PM, said:

Why can't TNF100 be done with gels?  I'm not a chemist, but don't gels have carbs just like "real food"?  Am I missing something here?

Good luck with your training Johnny.  My tip is to always run holding a Brick - it makes you super tough.

But we have not been introduced.

Gels don't go down so well for 14-20 hours they tend to come back up after taking them for a longer time.
I know some people take 20 gels during Ironman but it is in a relatively short time and lots of peopel have vomit issues during Ironman as well.
Most it is then put donw to a bad day never the gels or nutrition paln.

Real food sits better in the guts hence can be digested.
Gels need extra water to help digestion hence they slop about a lot.

[Pasty]

fist, on Dec 23 2010, 09:41 PM, said:

Why can't TNF100 be done with gels?  I'm not a chemist, but don't gels have carbs just like "real food"?  Am I missing something here?

Good luck with your training Johnny.  My tip is to always run holding a brick - it makes you super tough.

Brick is totally correct.  Even in an Ironman, you get sick of sweet stuff after gels, bidons of gatorade and sweets.
Start with savoury food in your ultra, then move to sweet when you are in need of it.

[johnnyboyrun]

pastyboy, on Dec 24 2010, 09:57 AM, said:

Brick is totally correct.  Even in an Ironman, you get sick of sweet stuff after gels, bidons of gatorade and sweets.
Start with savoury food in your ultra, then move to sweet when you are in need of it.

Cheers Pasty,

What sort of stuff would you be having?

[fist]

Hmmmm.  

Are we sure that gels aren't popular amongst ultra runners because they feel that gels aren't Zen enough?  Why chow down some gels when you could be munching on some chia seeds from the Mexican desert.  Once I was running along with my brick and an ultra runner asked if it was organic.  She nearly cried when I said no.

Mictim, you are totally Zen, running by moonlight.  Johnny, takes a while to build up to this.  I'd be practicing with a candle for now.  You can only hold one as you'll also need your brick.

[johnnyboyrun]

fist, on Dec 24 2010, 11:02 AM, said:

Hmmmm.  

Are we sure that gels aren't popular amongst ultra runners because they feel that gels aren't Zen enough?  Why chow down some gels when you could be munching on some chia seeds from the Mexican desert.  Once I was running along with my brick and an ultra runner asked if it was organic.  She nearly cried when I said no.

Mictim, you are totally Zen, running by moonlight.  Johnny, takes a while to build up to this.  I'd be practicing with a candle for now.  You can only hold one as you'll also need your brick.

LOL!!! you are a very funny man Fist!!!!
HAHAHA

[Brick]

johnnyboyrun, on Dec 24 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Cheers Pasty,

What sort of stuff would you be having?

Boiled potatoes with salt go down well.
Potato chips are good, you get salt and carbs.
Sandwiches are also good, Peanut butter and Jam. Yum.
Musseli bars but not the dry type.
Creamed rice.
Can of beans.
Sweets just not to many same problem as gels.

If it gets cold and you have crew cupa soups are great, I generally go for hot spicy mind like hot curry or laksa.
Tea/coffe at night time as well if cold.

Coke works but again be careful not ot over load on sweet stuff.

And both can be kind of hot at times so S-Caps or salt tablets just incase.

[Pasty]

I'd probably carry this stuff, tho only enough to get to the next stop or two:

Pretzels
Bagel
Muesli Bars
Jelly Snakes
Water
Suceed tabs

Later on I would also carry:
hammer gel
gatorade or equivalent


I'd have this available at the aidstations, but what I eat depends on things like temperature, distance, how I feel:
Potatoes
Coke
Pringles
Creamed Rice
Coke / Red Bull
Peanut butter sandwich
Hot soup

Just a tip: Don't mix the creamed rice and coke - it usually ends in tears....

[Spud]

In no particular order

Creamed rice
Sustagen
Perpetuem
Vegemite sandwiches
Clif bars
Nuun tabs
coffee
soup
spuds
up and gos
pizza

[Pasty]

Hey Spud,

Can you tell me about Nuun? Haven't really come across it before.
And do you like Perpetuem? I tend to like all the hammer stuff.

[fist]

My 2 cents:

- chia seeds
- fruit (organic)
- raw milk
- any animals you can catch on the trail

If I'm really hungry then I rub a muesli bar on my arm and absorb its nutritional goodness through diffusion.  

Another tip:  Johnny, I trust that you own a Powerband.  Nobody can explain it, but it totally works.  I wear 2 just to be sure that my body is running at the correct frequency.  

Fist.

[Brick]

fist, on Dec 24 2010, 11:29 AM, said:

I trust that you own a Powerband.  Nobody can explain it, but it totally works.  I wear 2 just to be sure that my body is running at the correct frequency.

Fist only two I am surprised, why not one on each arm and one on each leg.

Edited by Brick, 24 December 2010 - 10:35 AM.

[johnnyboyrun]

fist, on Dec 24 2010, 11:29 AM, said:

My 2 cents:

- chia seeds
- fruit (organic)
- raw milk
- any animals you can catch on the trail

If I'm really hungry then I rub a muesli bar on my arm and absorb its nutritional goodness through diffusion.  

Another tip:  Johnny, I trust that you own a Powerband.  Nobody can explain it, but it totally works.  I wear 2 just to be sure that my body is running at the correct frequency.  

Fist.

I was thinking about just eating food that naturally falls on the ground like berries?

[Spud]

pastyboy, on Dec 24 2010, 11:26 AM, said:

Hey Spud,

Can you tell me about Nuun? Haven't really come across it before.
And do you like Perpetuem? I tend to like all the hammer stuff.

Pasty,
Nuun tablets, basically electrolytes tabs (no carbs), one per 600ml water. Easy to carry, I order them online.
Same with Perpetuem, order online, got heaps of quality carbs, protein and electrolytes. When I run out I'm quite happy to use Sustagen Sport instead.

Cheers.

[TropicThunder]

Brick, on Dec 24 2010, 11:34 AM, said:

Fist only two I am surprised, why not one on each arm and one on each leg.

I wear 5 - one on each ankle, one each wrist

And one..........so i still have energy to keep on going when i get home  

[pipi]

fist, on Dec 23 2010, 09:41 PM, said:

Why can't TNF100 be done with gels? I'm not a chemist, but don't gels have carbs just like "real food"? Am I missing something here?

I know at least one TNF100 winner that ran it on only gels and water.

For the TNF100 it can be good to become familiar with the stuff that they have at aid stations - unless you have a dedicated support crew.

[NickW]

johnnyboyrun, on Dec 23 2010, 10:45 AM, said:

Should i include alot of stair running sets?

I'd find the most technical track you could get to and practice on that too.  My main stuff-up coming into these events last year was not being comfortable/ fast-enough on steep hills with loose footing (both up and down).  I figured running on a treadmill on a steep angle would help (and maybe it did), but you don't get any downhill training which is critical too.

A good pair of trail shoes like the XT Wings will help heaps.  I realised too late, and ended up running both events in road shoes, which wasn't optimum.