69 replies to this topic

[forabet]

Hi everyone,

A friend of mine heard that I was doing the SMH half on the 16th of May and was keen to do it with me - not for a time or competitively, just for a run
Given that entries have close and transfers are not allowed, we discussed her just coming along and running.
I've scoured the SMH website and there is no reference to non-registered runners joining the field.  Likewise, the event is run on public roads.

As such I thought i'd try and get a feel from the community as to the ethics of showing up and running with the field - but obviously without a number, timing tag etc. and with no interest in placing or results - just for the fun of running with such a positive vibe.

Is this ethically acceptable?
Are the organisers liable to care?
If so, of a field of thousands are they *really* likely to pull someone out forcefully?

Having only participated in small events myself, i'm not sure what race day is going to be like.

I'd love to get some thoughts.

regards

[blair]

This is a pisstake surely!?!

[AndyP]

I think that's a 'NO' from balri.

[chilliman]

forabet, on May 4 2010, 08:00 PM, said:

If so, of a field of thousands are they *really* likely to pull someone out forcefully?

Every year at the city2bay in Adelaide I see non number wearing runners being removed from the course by marshals prior to the turn into the finish timing gates. Close to 30,000 registered runners in the event last year. Some older timing and placing systems are really thrown into kaos if an unregistered runner happens to get into a finish chute.

Personally I can't see the point of running in an event without entering, i'd rather just go for a run on a trail.

But reckon if your friend runs the course and doesn't interfere with the start, finish or other runners on course, then as you said it is a public road and not much the organisers can do about it unless it is a closed course.

Edited by chilliman, 04 May 2010 - 08:28 PM.

[forabet]

chilliman, on May 4 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

Every year at the city2bay in Adelaide I see non number wearing runners being removed from the course by marshals prior to the turn into the finish timing gates. Close to 30,000 registered runners in the event last year. Some older timing and placing systems are really thrown into kaos if an unregistered runner happens to get into a finish chute.

Personally I can't see the point of running in an event without entering, i'd rather just go for a run on a trail.

But reckon if your friend runs the course and doesn't interfere with the start, finish or other runners on course, then as you said it is a public road and not much the organisers can do about it unless it is a closed course.

Thanks for the measured response Chilliman.  It's funny how anonymity gives some people the courage to be rude.  It was a legitimate question asked by someone very new to the sport - to racing or participating in big events full stop.  Certainly she has no interest in disrupting people/timing etc.  just wants to be part of the event and egg me along (i'm doing the North Face 100 the day/night before - hence my screen name).

thanks again

[maryclaire]

I think that the cost of putting on an organised event - road closures, toilets etc etc - mean that the "ethical" thing would be to only run if paid up and registered.  At the very least, an unregistered runner should start at the back and be self sufficient in terms of hydration and nutrition.

I was interested to see at the Boston Marathon that "bandit runners" are considered part of the tradition of the event - and whilst despised by most of the qualified runners, the Boston Athletics Association accepts that they are a reality and even caters for them at the aid stations.  However, it is strictly enforced that they start after the officially entered runners.

[forabet]

maryclaire, on May 4 2010, 08:38 PM, said:

I think that the cost of putting on an organised event - road closures, toilets etc etc - mean that the "ethical" thing would be to only run if paid up and registered.  At the very least, an unregistered runner should start at the back and be self sufficient in terms of hydration and nutrition.

I was interested to see at the Boston Marathon that "bandit runners" are considered part of the tradition of the event - and whilst despised by most of the qualified runners, the Boston Athletics Association accepts that they are a reality and even caters for them at the aid stations.  However, it is strictly enforced that they start after the officially entered runners.

Yeah those are some really good points maryclaire - there is certainly a difference between going for a run, and interfering with others or *stealing* (as it would be to use the aid stations).  Cheers for your thoughts

[rodthehornet]

Forabet,

How about this measured response.......

Lets just say you are a personal trainer and run a boot camp where everyone pays to get trained by yourself.  Now I come along to watch and decide, heck what will it hurt for one extra person, I might join in.  Without asking you or paying a fee, I start in with the group having a great old time.

After 10 minutes getting into the swing of things, you come over and ask me to join the group and pay a fee.  My reply is "Not on your life, this is a public place, I can join in any time I want."  I give you the bird and continue with the activity.

What is your reaction to me joining your event, taking advantage of the complimentary drinks on offer, availing myself of your expertise and knowledge and generally having a great old time at your expense????

[aDrain]

Better legal minds than mine may correct me, but isn't it the case that since the roads are closed they are no longer "public roads"? Which is the whole point of road closures permits, etc, ie to put them under private control of the organisers/marshals.

If you wanna run pay to enter.

[mandaj]

I think the answer is definitely no.

Your friend might not interfere with other runners because she is just one runner. But then another 'just one' runner comes along and another and another...

If she is keen to run with you there are plenty of there events coming up that you can both enter legitimately.

[forabet]

aDrain, on May 4 2010, 09:07 PM, said:

Better legal minds than mine may correct me, but isn't it the case that since the roads are closed they are no longer "public roads"? Which is the whole point of road closures permits, etc, ie to put them under private control of the organisers/marshals.

If you wanna run pay to enter.

it's not a matter of payment - registrations are closed.

[aDrain]

forabet, on May 4 2010, 09:11 PM, said:

it's not a matter of payment - registrations are closed.

Then its regrets time  

[DontStop]

Nah, not on really.

I know people like Peter Singer make their living out of playing around with ethics, challenging what's right and wrong... living in the grey areas. But most of the time it's pretty easy to figure out what the right thing to do is. Generally, if you have to ask, you pretty much already know you're on shaky ground but you're just looking for others to validate the part of you that wants it to be alright.

If your friend missed out on entering, stiff shit. She missed out, and she shouldn't run it. They cap entries for a reason (logistics, catering, safety) and by running without being a legit entrant, all she's doing is helping to screw up the experience for those who did pay. I know she's only one person, but that doesn't matter. Right and Wrong is about the principle of the matter.

You say you've scoured the website, and there's no mention of non-registered runners. Do the organisers have to have the foresight to envisage every possible no-no, and explicitly forbid them? Do concert organisers specifically mention that if you don't have a ticket, you can't go to the gig? Of course not, because it's obvious. Why would a race be any different?? And why look for little loopholes, when I think we all know that the organisers don't want your friend to run.

[forabet]

rodthehornet, on May 4 2010, 08:50 PM, said:

Forabet,

How about this measured response.......

Lets just say you are a personal trainer and run a boot camp where everyone pays to get trained by yourself.  Now I come along to watch and decide, heck what will it hurt for one extra person, I might join in.  Without asking you or paying a fee, I start in with the group having a great old time.

After 10 minutes getting into the swing of things, you come over and ask me to join the group and pay a fee.  My reply is "Not on your life, this is a public place, I can join in any time I want."  I give you the bird and continue with the activity.

What is your reaction to me joining your event, taking advantage of the complimentary drinks on offer, availing myself of your expertise and knowledge and generally having a great old time at your expense????

Great points all round Rod - thanks for the response.  I admit there are some differences - like being happy to pay and not using the aid stations - but i think the general consensus is pretty clear.  While it would be possible to run, it's not the right thing to do.  

For those people out there who immediately jumped to the offensive - i must say that I didn't mean to offend anyone.  If this information was freely available - e.g. on the SMH website - which i spent a good deal of time scouring - then I wouldn't have to ask.  But has a newbie I didn't know the answer.

[chilliman]

Not sure if anyone was quick enough to drag this bandit off the 2006 Melb M course.
We even offered him a "CR" icypole.

 100_1550.sized.jpg   122.33K   167 downloads

Ed: and he was even stealing Virtual's limelight. Virtual's head can be seen over busta's left shoulder.

Edited by chilliman, 04 May 2010 - 10:08 PM.

[clanrunner]

Leaving aside the ethics for a moment, look at the practicalities. There's a reason why the number of entries is capped- the race can only cope with so many entrants out on the course.

Bringing the ethics back into it a bit, but not ignoring the practicalities- Yes, it is public space and someone else running along the footpath would be within their rights. This happens at a lot of races. But I've not seen these runners (sometimes running the opposite direction to the race, so clearly not banditing) try to run along a footpath that's lined with spectators. To expect anyone standing on the footpath to make way for you to run through is asking a bit much for mine. Of course they could run on the road- then there's the issue of impeding other runners.

I once ran alongside a friend for the last 10k or so of a half marathon (or paced her, if you like). I wasn't in half marathon shape so  I wasn't going to enter the race. It wasn't a big race and as such there weren't many other runners about. On the occasions here and there where we passed another runner, I ran wide of the other entrant(s) to give them plenty of space. I pulled out before the finish area, so there would be no confusion amongst those tallying results. Had it been a race like the City-to-Surf there's no way I'd have done it, as it would be nigh on impossible there to not impede other runners.

So I'd say someone can run alongside if they stay right out of the start and finish areas and any other parts of the course where it's likely that entrants (and spectators etc) won't be impeded. Which probably limits them to just a few parts of the SHM course and prevents them from doing the whole (or most) of it.

There might be a legal right to be on the road at the same time, I'll leave that to the legal profession, but it's also within the law to be a (insert derogatory insult here).

I think your friend is better off doing a long run elsewhere, and entering another half marathon if keen for a race (and if they want to do the SHM, get their entry in early next year).

[Melruns]

clanrunner, on May 5 2010, 12:09 AM, said:

There might be a legal right to be on the road at the same time, I'll leave that to the legal profession, but it's also within the law to be a (insert derogatory insult here).

It's ok, you can use the word p***k.

forabet no, it's not ok for reasons cited above.  Unless of course, I can race in the the Townsville Supercars without entering   .

Hey mods, you can take the asterixes out of p***k, it's not an insult anymore!

p***k p***k p***k p***k p***k!

[Digger]

maryclaire, on May 4 2010, 04:38 AM, said:

I was interested to see at the Boston Marathon that "bandit runners" are considered part of the tradition of the event - and whilst despised by most of the qualified runners, the Boston Athletics Association accepts that they are a reality and even caters for them at the aid stations.  However, it is strictly enforced that they start after the officially entered runners.

This is different from the Boston Bandits.

The BB came about because once apon a time you had to be a sub 2-45 runner to qualify, and a lot of people couldn't qualify.

The start is in a small town which is 'locked down' for the day, so if you haven't got a race no, you couldn't get anywhere near the town, let alone the start.

The bandits got around this by camping out the night before, in the forest near the start(And there was generally snow on the ground).

They became known as 'Bandits', then with photocopying, somebody one year copied a race number, and then removed the 'number', and replaced it with the word 'Bandit', and started to sell them in the forest for a charity.

When the numbers of Bandits approached 1000, Race management decide to create another starting corral at the rear of the field for the bandits, but these runners don't have timing chips, so their names and times are not recorded.

So when you are running Boston, if you look at the runnings coming past you, you will see who is a bandit, and who is not.

However, what we are talking about here, is somebody who wants to run a race with a friend, after entry's closed.  At the Six Foot Track this year, after entry's closed, there were about 500 of these people, and fortunately they believed the ethical thing to do, was to stay away, or turn up and help as a volunteer.

[maryclaire]

Digger, on May 5 2010, 08:20 AM, said:

The BB came about because once apon a time you had to be a sub 2-45 runner to qualify, and a lot of people couldn't qualify.

The start is in a small town which is 'locked down' for the day, so if you haven't got a race no, you couldn't get anywhere near the town, let alone the start.

The bandits got around this by camping out the night before, in the forest near the start(And there was generally snow on the ground).

They became known as 'Bandits', then with photocopying, somebody one year copied a race number, and then removed the 'number', and replaced it with the word 'Bandit', and started to sell them in the forest for a charity.

When the numbers of Bandits approached 1000, Race management decide to create another starting corral at the rear of the field for the bandits, but these runners don't have timing chips, so their names and times are not recorded.

So when you are running Boston, if you look at the runnings coming past you, you will see who is a bandit, and who is not.

I didn't know that - very interesting piece of history there; is there anything you don't know about marathons, Digger??? - and as an aside, thanks for the shirt - it elicited great responses.

[frankie17]

forabet, on May 4 2010, 08:00 PM, said:

I'd love to get some thoughts.

I do not like people like this:

- the event costs money (incl. for road closures, toilets) and we are all contributing to that (well - all of us except people like your friend).  $80 is not a small amount of money for a couple of hours enjoyment
- this event is already full to the brim with bodies just like City to Surf.  And just like on peakhour trains and buses, one extra body takes up even more space.

That is why I do not like them.

[Digger]

maryclaire, on May 4 2010, 04:37 PM, said:

and as an aside, thanks for the shirt - it elicited great responses.

Wait till you see the new ones.

maryclaire, on May 4 2010, 04:37 PM, said:

I didn't know that - very interesting piece of history there; is there anything you don't know about marathons, Digger??? - and as an aside, thanks for the shirt - it elicited great responses.

You should come and see my Library sometime.

Plus,

If I ever do Boston again, I might do it as a Bandit.

[Brick]

Why not buy an entry try this link for a female entry available.[/url]

"Cool running does not advocate the selling of race entries unless the organiser has it in the terms and conditions that it is ok.

SMH Half does not." Superflake

[TehAxe]

would you go to an art gallery and follow a tour group around listening to the guide that was being paid by the tour group?
would you follow right behind a guided group on the Cradle Mountain walk or trekking up to Mt Everest?
would you sit behind someone on a train & read their book over their shoulder?
would you go to a non-crowded beach & lay your towel down 1 metre from a couple & spend the whole time staring at them?

[iRonnie]

Quote

At the Six Foot Track this year, after entry's closed, there were about 500 of these people, and fortunately they believed the ethical thing to do...,

No!  Men in dark glass and finely-cut black suits surrounded our homes and stood their with menacing looks on their faces while they gently stroked their Gloak 27s.  Don't generalise   .

[thomo]

Brick, on May 5 2010, 09:04 AM, said:

Why not buy an entry

http://halfmarathon....sp?PageID=16844

Can I transfer my entry

No transfers are allowed


That is why you can't Brick.

[Stonewalled]

I'd give it a miss. There are plenty of other races around in the near future to enter. If she wants to be part of it line the streets, cheer and be inspired.

[Brick]

thomo, on May 5 2010, 09:09 AM, said:

http://halfmarathon....sp?PageID=16844

Can I transfer my entry

No transfers are allowed


That is why you can't Brick.

I didn't say it was allowed just available.
And if she did buy the spot then all ethical problems gone IMHO.

Personally I think they should make selling spots legal because it is a great run with limited entries why not have all entreis used legally.

[coachrollie]

Brick, on May 5 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

I didn't say it was allowed just available.
And if she did buy the spot then all ethical problems gone IMHO.

Personally I think they should make selling spots legal because it is a great run with limited entries why not have all entreis used legally.

No its not, are you for real your 'humble' opinion is less than that.

It is illegal to buy another entrant's entry, there is no substitution and it is non-ethical and illegal to run under the name of someone else, plus downright stupid and dangerous if something happenned to you, you are misidentified, medical records are incorrect and treatment inappropriate.

What is it about runners and logic?

[Goughy]

And any legal matters as well.  I'm sure there's insurance in these events but they only cover the entrants.  And if you substitute yourself in someone elses place and race as them and something happens to you I doubt the insurance would cover you.

[undercover brother]

i agree with balri (post 2)

[jvt]

coachrollie, on May 5 2010, 11:03 AM, said:

No its not, are you for real your 'humble' opinion is less than that.

It is illegal to buy another entrant's entry, there is no substitution and it is non-ethical and illegal to run under the name of someone else, plus downright stupid and dangerous if something happenned to you, you are misidentified, medical records are incorrect and treatment inappropriate.

What is it about runners and logic?

cmon coach, give a brick a break. Life's not that logical.
I ran under a friend's name in the run for the kids a month or two back. I'd left my number and tag at home, which meant a 3hr round trip to get it. As it was a mate around the corner decided not to run, and he gave me his bib and tag. Not a problem. Not stupid, not dangerous, not unethical. And what medical records? Sure, there's a teeny weeny risk something might happen where identification is an issue, but if that makes it illegal, the law is an ass. In fact, if you really want to be a wanker about it, running under my mate's name was in the world's best interests  (it saved the atmosphere 250km of carbon emissions!) Plus my mate shattered his PB... everyone's a winner.

[SlowManiac]

Probably a bit naughty but stupid, dangerous and illegal? PLEASE!

Get a life. I say do it we should all be naughty once in a while

[Mick]

SlowManiac, on May 5 2010, 11:25 AM, said:

I say do it we should all be naughty once in a while

You mean like how you eat peanut butter AND honey out of the jar  

Maybe you could try adding whipped cream ?

[FakePlasticTrees]

I remember a few years back in a thread on the SMH half where one of the CR regulars ran the race without a number and copped a mouthful from another runner. Primarily because his wife was running a PB but kept getting cut in front of around corners and it ruined her run. Don't be that person.

Also Coach Rollie, did you read the second part of Brick's post? He's saying it should be legal to have transferable entries (a common complaint amongst SMH history), then there is no ethical dilemma. Also it sorts out the identification issue you raised.

[coachrollie]

SlowManiac, on May 5 2010, 11:25 AM, said:

Get a life. I say do it we should all be naughty once in a while

Yes we should, and I still do ..but not at other's expense

It is stupid to run under someone else's name because of the insurance, medical etc reasons I stated. If you don't agree then you have never organised a race like this.
It's also meaningless because you and your mate won't get an accurate time, and if such time were to be used for qualification to another event, say NYC, then it is also cheating.
It is illegal because it is against the expressed rules of the organisers who have paid for the rights to stage the race on those roads.

And jvt, you forgot your bib/tag. That is your fault, tough luck, watch the race instead. How did you 'save 250km round trip' just because you and your friend cheated???

Runners want races to be organised for them, then they also want to break the rules that jeopardise those races. As I said, logic maybe gets destroyed by endorphins.

edit: (lerning the tricks now)

FakePlasticTrees, on May 5 2010, 11:36 AM, said:

Also Coach Rollie, did you read the second part of Brick's post? He's saying it should be legal to have transferable entries (a common complaint amongst SMH history), then there is no ethical dilemma. Also it sorts out the identification issue you raised.

Yes I did, but I responded to the line I highlighted.

I agree it would be great to have a transfer system, many races have it. But it is very, very complicated for a race of SMH size. However, if Brick is offerring to administer it, why doesn't he give them a call?

And Mick...perhaps lick the peanut butter,honey and whipped cream off the lady of your choice. Now that would be naughty and nice, but not stupid or illegal.

Edited by coachrollie, 05 May 2010 - 11:41 AM.

[jvt]

coachrollie, on May 5 2010, 12:36 PM, said:

It is stupid to run under someone else's name because of the insurance, medical etc reasons I stated. If you don't agree then you have never organised a race like this.
It's also meaningless because you and your mate won't get an accurate time, and if such time were to be used for qualification to another event, say NYC, then it is also cheating.
It is illegal because it is against the expressed rules of the organisers who have paid for the rights to stage the race on those roads.

And jvt, you forgot your bib/tag. That is your fault, tough luck, watch the race instead. How did you 'save 250km round trip' just because you and your friend cheated???

Runners want races to be organised for them, then they also want to break the rules that jeopardise those races. As I said, logic maybe gets destroyed by endorphins.

edit: (lerning the tricks now)



Yes I did, but I responded to the line I highlighted.

Geez Coach, you must be able to run really fast

[SlowManiac]

Drunk driving is stupid dangerous and illegal.

Running a race without a bib is naughty.

[iRonnie]

Quote

As such I thought i'd try and get a feel from the community as to the ethics of showing up and running with the field - but obviously without a number, timing tag etc. and with no interest in placing or results - just for the fun of running with such a positive vibe.

Is this ethically acceptable?

I think you will find that it is not regarded as good form by the wider running community (I have been around for about thirty years).  They have done the right thing and paid their money.  That money goes towards the huge expense incurred by organisers.    

A general rule in ethics is the harm done to others.  You could excuse yourself by saying because it is just you taking advantage of dificult- to -police situation no or little harm is done.  However, another test is to ask yourself "What if everyone did this?"  The harm done would destroy organised fun runs and wreck it for everyone.  In this case, if you apply the test,  it could mean , among other things, that all the extra unregistereds runners create unforseen problems for organisers -such as unmangable crowding.  They have capped the numbers for a reason- haven't they?  

I don't think it is an all- important ethical issue.  I think it goes to just plain old consideration for those who have paid their way.  But then again, bludging on others isn't exactly ethical - is it?

It is pity but i think you best be a good sport and support your friend from the sidelines.

Edited by iRonnie, 05 May 2010 - 12:30 PM.

[coachrollie]

SlowManiac, on May 5 2010, 11:43 AM, said:

Drunk driving is stupid dangerous and illegal.

Running a race without a bib is naughty.

Drunk driving is criminal. Taking someone else's entry on a course legally operated by the organisers is cheating and illegal.

Do you guys also condone bib swapping in your precious events such as 6FT,or only when it's anarchy against the evil corporations?

jvt, on May 5 2010, 11:43 AM, said:

Geez Coach, you must be able to run really fast with a carrot like that up your bum

Yes. Especially when I run under my own entry.

iRonnie, on May 5 2010, 12:21 PM, said:

But then again, bludging on others isn't exactly ethical - is it?

Well said ron, we must be the same vintage. Apparently it is just 'naughty', like kids in kindergarten

Edited by coachrollie, 05 May 2010 - 12:24 PM.

[crowpower]

It's a huge NO NO forabet. Please don't do it.

There's the famous case of Tani Ruckle being disqualified from winning the 1987 Australian Marathon in Sydney because some idiot male jumped into the race and ran with her for a long way until just before the finish. The race was televised so everyone watching saw what was going on. Happily Tani was reinstated as winner after an appeal.

If the Race Director gets wind about it both you and your friend will be tainted forever. It's just not worth it.

Enjoy the event and good luck.  

[grimsey]

Just as an aside, a mate of mine years ago ran in a very iconic race using his brothers registration as he had come down sick the week before, only to end up running a really fast time. It took this mate of mine over 10 years to get his p.b. back officially in his own name.

[SlowManiac]

How long did he get locked up for?

[undercover brother]

ok out with it SM.
when have you been naughty?
give us all the detail.
promise not to forward on to the police

[cakeboy]

On the topic of swapping numbers, I'm with you Brick.

If you collapse in a race; do the ambo's ever look up your rego form to see which boxed you ticked?

If not then I can't see why why is it essential that you run under the right name, esp in a race with tens of thousands.
Six foot and ultas ( and other assorted precious races) where there is a chance you might go missing for days in the bush is a different kettle of fish.

I can't see the issue but am no RD...

[zandrsmum]

grimsey, on May 5 2010, 01:58 PM, said:

Just as an aside, a mate of mine years ago ran in a very iconic race using his brothers registration as he had come down sick the week before, only to end up running a really fast time. It took this mate of mine over 10 years to get his p.b. back officially in his own name.

Now, that's a good reason not to transfer entries.  K

[grimsey]

It gets better. A couple of years ago, same family and runners. His brother came down sick before the city to surf and his obviously quicker brother said he would his number and go for a fun run, only to get carried away and ran a p.b. Nexyt year original brother got invited to the front line because of his brothers exertions the previous year, only to again come down sick a week before. This time brother number 3 asked if he could use the number for a run only to be told, "sorry your too slow you will make my name look bad"!

[WhiteRock]

Wow what an amusing thread! Here's a comment: There is a lot of talk about registration payment and legalities, ethics etc which I agree with, however I would like to point out that most people who participate in SMH in May have probably trained hard for it and are undoubtedly looking for a PB or just to finish. These people who have trained hard and paid their fees are entitled to their moment of 'glory'. If your friend can run 21k on a whim than good on her, however leave the event for those that have had the blood, sweat and tears to achieve the event!

[ninjette]

TehAxe, on May 5 2010, 09:06 AM, said:

would you go to an art gallery and follow a tour group around listening to the guide that was being paid by the tour group?
would you follow right behind a guided group on the Cradle Mountain walk or trekking up to Mt Everest?
would you sit behind someone on a train & read their book over their shoulder?
would you go to a non-crowded beach & lay your towel down 1 metre from a couple & spend the whole time staring at them?

um....so does it actually make me a bad person if I answered yes to at least two of the above?   (not the beach one, though...that's just weird)

[coachrollie]

cakeboy, on May 5 2010, 02:16 PM, said:

On the topic of swapping numbers, I'm with you Brick.

If you collapse in a race; do the ambo's ever look up your rego form to see which boxed you ticked?

I can't see the issue but am no RD...

Obviously not. In most case the medical team would have an entry list to at least identify the runner. Most runners do not fill in the medical info on back of bib, but at least the name is known.

Slow Maniac obviously thinks that legality only extends to where police gets called in, and not to a rule that can be imposed by races and that should be respected. Perhaps his 'naughty' antics sometimes steps over that boundary to spend a night in slammer, hence his warped understanding of right or wrong.

Must be something in the education, since most kids by time they go to school already have that understanding.

Can I also ask this question, seeing I am not from around here. Are you able to legally run up and down the middle of Pitt street at any time whilst there is traffic flow? Yes/No??
So the organisers have paid for, logistically gone to trouble for, to arrange that their paid entrants have that right on race day.
Why do you, the slow maniac in particular, feel it is your legal right to do so without entry?

May I also add, that I have seen the people on this board agreeing that bandits should not run in your holy grail, the 6FT track marathon. Yet in that case the 'bandits' actually have a right, if I have my tourist geography right because the track is not closed to the public.

How about you pay the corporate races the same respect you do for your own precious events?

[JC1]

My free tip, if you are going to enter a run without paying, #1 - dont tell anyone, #2  -dont ask if its ethical on a public forum.

JC

keep running ( ethically )