29 replies to this topic

[Theactivepod]

Hi guys I am wondering if you can help me out. I am currently training for a sub 40min 10km for the easter long weekend. I have proven I can run at this pace over shorter distances but struggle immensly as the distance increases my current PBs are 2400 8.25, 3000 9:45, 5000 19:40.
My weekly training consists of

Monday 6-8km 4:30 pace ( plus cross train 30 min swim)
Tuesday race either 2.4, 3, 4 or 5km
wed 6-8km 5.00 pace plus cross train (30 min swim)
thurs         2*200 @ 30secs
                 4*400 @ 75 secs
                 2*800 @ 2:35
                 4*800 @ 80 secs
                 2*200 @ 35 secs
                 all with 1 min recovery
fri rest
Sat cross train (1.30hr bike)
Sun 12km 5min pace

I know my anaerobic fitness is there but am strugling with my endurance and cant work out why my resting HR is 50 max HR 226 (yes 226) and I am 28 yrs old

any advice greatly appreciated

[ChookLegsMonkeyBoy]

I think that your Sunday "long" run is far too short to really benefit your 10 k race time. Try slowly lengthening it (but keeping the same pace) and aim for something like 18-20k. I'm not sure that you'll manage to achieve this sort of distance prior to Easter (plus give yourself a decent recovery for the race), but would be something to incorporate into your future training.
The rest looks OK to me.
Good luck.
ChookLegs....

[Smasher]

Agree with ChookLegsMonkeyBoy

You said it yourself, endurance is lacking, get that long run up on the Sunday. Don't worry too much about pace at this stage, just get out there.

I think your Thursday session is too quick for your goals. Why not do some race pace running on the thursday or friday? Do 3x3km intervals at 4min/km. Or do 5kms in 20mins. You need to get to halfway in a 10km race feeling like you are capable of doing it again. Ideally you should be able to do 5km in 20mins comfortably.

[2feetoffground]

Theactivepod, how many ks are you averaging - from my calculations - assuming warm ups/downs etc it would be under 40k?

Would this be correct?

[Chopper the Hands man]

longer runs, and longer intervals say 1km targeting 10-30 seconds quicker than the 4 min ks' you are after.

If you can do 9:45 over 3km, with the right training, you'll walk it in.

[Bellthorpe]

Theactivepod, on Feb 17 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

I know my anaerobic fitness is there but am strugling with my endurance and cant work out why my resting HR is 50 max HR 226 (yes 226) and I am 28 yrs old

You're struggling with your endurance because you're not doing endurance training ... and that takes many months.

What puzzles you about your resting HR? Is there some number you think it should be?

[glenda]

What Chopper says. Can't give any more advice given a little bet I have with Chopper. Don't want to give my secret training ideas away...but gees if you can run that for 3km your 5 and 10 should be a whole lot faster.

[Brick]

Theactivepod,

Being able to run 3KM in 9:45 IE 3:15 pace 10KM in 39:59 should be easy running for you.
If you really want to get the sub 40 just do some more +10KM runs mid week.
Make your long weekend run longer between 15-18KMs.

In about two months of some long runs sub 40 will be easy for you.

Brick

[Theactivepod]

Sorry guys forgot to add a few details. PB for 10 km is currently 42.13, PB's listed previously were set on the track and the 10km on the road. I am very pleased with my 3km time but like I said I die at 2.5km and my 5km and 10km times are representive of that. My Training averages between 30-45km per week depending on how I am feeling. I guess you have all confirmed what I have been thinking and that is a lack of longer runs. I am going to increase my sunday run slowly and increase the intervals on thursday maybe something like 2*800 @ 3.30 pace, 4* 1km @ 3.45 pace and 2 * 800 @ 4min pace all with 1min 30 recovery.

[Bellthorpe]

What's your concern about your heart rate?

[2feetoffground]

Theactivepod, on Feb 18 2008, 06:36 PM, said:

Sorry guys forgot to add a few details. PB for 10 km is currently 42.13, PB's listed previously were set on the track and the 10km on the road. I am very pleased with my 3km time but like I said I die at 2.5km and my 5km and 10km times are representive of that. My Training averages between 30-45km per week depending on how I am feeling. I guess you have all confirmed what I have been thinking and that is a lack of longer runs. I am going to increase my sunday run slowly and increase the intervals on thursday maybe something like 2*800 @ 3.30 pace, 4* 1km @ 3.45 pace and 2 * 800 @ 4min pace all with 1min 30 recovery.

Why run the last 800s slower than the 1ks?

[balfey]

2feetoffground, on Feb 20 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

Why run the last 800s slower than the 1ks?

I think he means all those intervals are run in one session - after all, just two reps of 800 isn't going to do much. he's doing 2*800 @ 3.30 followed by 4*1km @ 3.45 followed by 2*800 @ 4.00 (ie. 8 reps, but different distances and speeds). so the last ones are slower because he's doing fast times over long distances, and tiring toward the end.

To those more experienced - is this an effective way to run the intervals, or would it be better to run 8 slightly shorter reps at the same pace?

[Bellthorpe]

To quote Arthur Lydiard, it doesn't really matter. So long as you feel that you couldn't have done much more.

[balfey]

Bellthorpe, on Feb 20 2008, 04:26 PM, said:

To quote Arthur Lydiard, it doesn't really matter. So long as you feel that you couldn't have done much more.

I only did my first interval training on sunday morning. You're telling me... that feeling at the end was the feeling of proper interval training? I could've sworn it was the cold, cold hand of death itself... *shudder*...

[Bellthorpe]

Embrace the pain ...

[Rudolf]

here is 1 point :

what is the target pace for desired PB ?

Say it is 10km under 40 mins, so it is the 4min/km pace.

So lets say to get under it for surem, the boidy needs to have the ability to run at 3:55 very efficiently, be very familiar with that pace, have neuromotoric conections established , everything needs to be on autopilot as a matter of course for the body,

The legs turnover, the stride distance, the body posture, the effort of the pushoff, the position of upper body head, the arms movement and at this speed the maximized breathing efficiency the movement of the diapraghm, the lungs expanding etc.


So all this needs to learn and synchronized and made very efficient and made it all easy.

The difficulty would be to hold it for the whole 10 km distance, but it needs  to be learned at shorter intervals first.

So thats the purpose of the session, to learn teh race pace. The total accumulated distance of the intervals could be shorter that the race distance or about equal or longer, but iof course the starting iof the programm will be allways shorter accumulated distanmce and also shorter intervals.

so if the target is 40 min for 10 km, the question is, how many kms per week do You run at 3:55/km. The answer is none.

The 3:30 amd 3:45 pace is not helpfull here is building wrong and unusable brain muscles conections etc.

but there is absolutely nothing run at 3:55, so at the race day body is asked to do completely new different job, so the training was as effective as australian education system.


Count the weekly kms done at targeted race pace, and work at increasing the the weekly kms at this pace as well at increasing teh lenghts of intervals at this pace.

So YOu might start simply by running few 400m at exactly the pace, next time do more of them or do 600m, than 800m, etc, 1k, 1200, 1600m, 2000m.

In the advanced stage of preparation You should be able to have perhaps 2 sessions per week at the pace, and keep changing the type os sesssion, say from 25x400m to 3x3000 and anything in between, even trying occasionaly later on doing 2x5000 with stretching and drink in the rest period.


Running faster is not helpfull, if it is easy than do longer intervals, do more of them etc.

the basic question is still the same - how many kms at the exact future goal race pace You do each week ?


If You are also after the harder session at the higher effort than race pace - do it in hills do uphills intervals etc, when working harder, but not establishing incorrect neuromuscular patterns on the track since hills runing is different activity ,

or do 100 jump squats etc.

[Still Building]

Rudolf, you have given me much joy over the years. And despite some out of line criticism you have always kept your cool and responded politely.

So I hope you will with me too

A few comments about your comments;

"The 3:30 amd 3:45 pace is not helpfull here is building wrong and unusable brain muscles conections etc."

I don't know about that - so Vo2 max pace work is not helpful? How much different can these brain muscle connections be?

"Running faster is not helpfull, if it is easy than do longer intervals, do more of them etc."

So all pace faster than race pace is pointless? Is this for all events?

I will go out on a limb and say that I thnk very little race pace work needs to be done over the period of the trainining year. I have surprised myself off what can be done off almost exclusively sub threshold running.

Edited by Still Building, 20 February 2008 - 10:52 PM.

[Brick]

Still Building, on Feb 20 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

Rudolf, you have given me much joy over the years. And despite some out of line criticism you have always kept your cool and responded politely.

So I hope you will with me too

A few comments about your comments;

"The 3:30 amd 3:45 pace is not helpfull here is building wrong and unusable brain muscles conections etc."

I don't know about that - so Vo2 max pace work is not helpful? How much different can these brain muscle connections be?

"Running faster is not helpfull, if it is easy than do longer intervals, do more of them etc."

So all pace faster than race pace is pointless? Is this for all events?

I will go out on a limb and say that I thnk very little race pace work needs to be done over the period of the trainining year. I have surprised myself off what can be done off almost exclusively sub threshold running.

OK,

What % of your runs should be run at race pace?
Does it make a difference what race you are targeting 5/10/21.1/42.2?
What % run at easy pace?
What % above race pace?

Brick

[Theactivepod]

Sorry bellthprpe poor punctuation. Should have been a full stop befor I went into my HR details i was puzzled more so about my endurance and 2feet balfey is right only running the lastt 800 slower because i cant go any faster in those last couple of sets after going hard the first 6 or so

[Rudolf]

Still Building, on Feb 20 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

Rudolf, you have given me much joy over the years. And despite some out of line criticism you have always kept your cool and responded politely.

So I hope you will with me too

sure why not ?  

You got improvements on Your performance using overspeed (faster than race pace) principle.
If You train the body hard it will allways improve regardless of the method, the question is was it the best possible method and did it achieved the ultimate possible improvement ?

This is hard to argue on individual basis, I used that same overspeed principle for many years when Young and (...) got fast improvements but got stuck into plateau - blind street trap and there was no way out of it, set my limits very short this way,

would never repeat the same way again.


I like to analyze the manufacturing proces data of the WR and gold medals, and it usually comes to the same conclusion :

maximaize the volume at race speed and at slower speed, teaching the body to run easy efficiently at the race speed.

This goes for sprinters, it goes for 400 - till ultras, take Monna, take Buster,..

Busters speed session is 80m reps at the speed of his 1500-3000m

How often do YOu find the sessions of 400m at the desired race pace allowing for paces of faster irregular laps etc accomodate for all the tactical nuanses of the racing, so yes the 400m training lap can be faster that the average lap at new WR, but it is usualy the pace of he surges and pace changes to learn the irregularity to confuse and shake off the competitors.

Very seldom You find the training runs significantly faster than the intended racing pace.

The running comunity is often reading the elites sessions with intervals lenghts rest periods and times of this reps, and is thinking this is hiow fast it needs to be done, but for theelite it is simply the race pace, not overspeed


Take Zatopek - he would plan his new PB-WR pace and will run each day as many as possible 400m at tha new pace, getting to the stage that he would run each day full distance at that pace with a bit fatsre beggining and finish to simulate the racing reality, so 5x200 + 20x400 + 5x200 at tha race pace with the same lenght slow recovery jogging in between.

So about 5 days a week he would run 10Km daily at new WR pace and another 10km as recovery jogs, so 20km daily
with 50% of volume at the race,
saturday was traveling and sunday was a race on track road or Xcountry - so more race pace or so volume.

no overspeed


as to the question of % :

I would guess that 20-30% of weekly volume to be at race pace depending on total volume racing distance etc.

In situation which requires fast improvement like the topic here - I hacve few weeks left to reach the goal, I would say that even going 50% of weekly volume but monitoring the body for niggles starins fatique etc.

In this situation there is no way body can handle any overspeed sessions.


You can take Colins favorite Fordyce as well - at the start of traing period he would byuil up his speed but it was not overspeed it was the pace he was planning to win next Comtades or very close to it, and than he was simply extending the intervals at this pace doing more of them etc, but the trainig was never harder that the race, and for different angle - as Colin says Fordyce would allways cut the longest clubs runs short running at desired race pace but for shtrter distance and would not go the full clubs run at 60km (? from memory), so again simulate the race but make it somehow easier.

Take a Shot Put or Discus etc as an example - they train with the weight they use at comp otr the weight lighter, very seldom if ever they will throw the weight which is heavier than the comp weight - that would bugger up the neuromuscular patterns.

Yes they build the strenght with 100+kgs BB in gym etc, but that uis different movement so not interfering with neuromuscular patterns at all.

Edited by Rudolf, 21 February 2008 - 09:12 AM.

[Colin]

Rudolf, on Feb 21 2008, 09:58 AM, said:

You can take Colins favorite Fordyce as well - at the start of traing period he would byuil up his speed but it was not overspeed it was the pace he was planning to win next Comtades or very close to it, and than he was simply extending the intervals at this pace doing more of them etc, but the trainig was never harder that the race, and for different angle - as Colin says Fordyce would allways cut the longest clubs runs short running at desired race pace but for shtrter distance and would not go the full clubs run at 60km (? from memory), so again simulate the race but make it somehow easier.

Actually, hated the B*****d, political opportunist etc etc.

But I have, and will continue to use him as an example, because he won the best, most competive ultra in the world 9 times, by training his way.

And actually, he raced track as well in off season (post race 6 months) so faster than race pace, then put in miles, knowing that those miles could then be done at race pace. For a (still) 50mile WR holder he had a 29 min 10km.

btw, Rudolf, when did you start adopting my pet philosophies, race pace in particular... you have me worried my friend

OK, race pace very important, more so over marathon than 10km, because marathon is more about running economy than 10km, but still very important.
For 10km, faster than race pace also very important (everything is very important), more so than marathon. You have speed over race pace, so in race you are cruising below that.

Having said that the original poster should be able to run sub 40 without any additional training. If you can do 9:45 3km then 40min is a doddle. He says he dies after 2.5km. Is that perhaps because he is trying to run the 5km or 10km at the 3km pace? Of course you are going to die in the arse.
If you can run 3km at 3:15, then you should be able to 'cruise' 10km in 3:50's easily.

I have done no long running in last 10months, 40km wk last month or so, yetr I have done a 21 and a 25 in 93 and 1;49 resp. in last month. I was asked how I could do it and finish so strong.
Same answer as above, if I am able to run 40min 10km, then 45min is cruising- a couple of that and then kick the last 5km in 20min... not too hard to do.

[Chelli]

Theactivepod, on Feb 17 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

Hi guys I am wondering if you can help me out. I am currently training for a sub 40min 10km for the easter long weekend. I have proven I can run at this pace over shorter distances but struggle immensly as the distance increases my current PBs are 2400 8.25, 3000 9:45, 5000 19:40.
My weekly training consists of

Monday 6-8km 4:30 pace ( plus cross train 30 min swim)
Tuesday race either 2.4, 3, 4 or 5km
wed 6-8km 5.00 pace plus cross train (30 min swim)
thurs         2*200 @ 30secs
                 4*400 @ 75 secs
                 2*800 @ 2:35
                 4*800 @ 80 secs
                 2*200 @ 35 secs
                 all with 1 min recovery
fri rest
Sat cross train (1.30hr bike)
Sun 12km 5min pace

I know my anaerobic fitness is there but am strugling with my endurance and cant work out why my resting HR is 50 max HR 226 (yes 226) and I am 28 yrs old

any advice greatly appreciated

Try longer intvervals

6-8 x 1km @ 3:30-3:40  recovery 60secs - 2mins

4-6 x 1500 @ 5:20-5:30  recovery 60secs- 3mins

The greastest interval session I find running at 10km race pace at quarter of the distance so run 2.5km intervals

3-4 x 2.5km @ 9:30  recovery 60sec- 3mins ( This will give you the volume you need to be confident in racing the distance hard. Only try these a couple of times a year when you are in peak physical condition or you are peaking for a race of around 10km)

This would be training to race 38mins for 10km.

You should be able to at least complete 2 intervals if you say you can run 9:45 for 3km and try to run as close to this time for the 3rd or the last interval. Once you get aerobically fitter you will find the last one will be the fastest interval as you will no longer be surviving it and you will be pushing it harder at the finish like in a race situation.

With a time of 9:45 over 3km you should be running close to 35 minutes for 10km if you have reasonable fatigue resistance and do more longer easy runs as well to build you running endurance up. I can't run 3km much faster than 9:45 but I am quite capable of running well under 35 minutes when well rested.

I believe on short recoveries for long intervals as you are using less anaerobic sources and you can keep you lactic acid levels fairly low as well as when you get fitter you will notice your heart rate can drop very quickly below 100bpm in less than 60 seconds so the recovery will be faster as you are mainly running at more aerobic than anaerobic. Unlike the shorter intervals where you are running faster and more anaerobic which doesn't stress the VO2max or the anaerobic threshold.

Edited by Chelli, 23 February 2008 - 01:44 PM.

[Theactivepod]

What recovery time would you suggest between intervals Chelli? 1min, 1min 30? or would i be better guaging the recovery off my HR ie waiting till it drops below a certain bpm and taking off then ??

Edited by Theactivepod, 23 February 2008 - 12:59 PM.

[Chelli]

Sorry I was going to edit my post because I forgot some important info with recoveries and also I would work on running at least your long run at twice the distance say 20km. See above for the other info I have edited as I was cut off the internet as I am at sea at the moment and have trouble staying on line.

Edited by Chelli, 23 February 2008 - 01:40 PM.

[bruncle]

You won't hit 40:00 until you can run 19:10 for 5k. Rudolf is right, anything much faster than your 5k race pace isn't useful (except for striders for improved form). (3:30 pace is a LOT faster than VO2 max pace....) Instead of the overly complicated interval workout, just do 8x800 @ 3:55/km with 2:00 rest. Expand your long run to 15km and generally just run more. You're doing pretty well considering how little mileage you're running, but there's only so much you can gain from doing interval workouts. The bulk of your improvement will come from endurance, so just run more and you'll improve. I doubt you'll break 40:00 by easter. Running is a slow process no matter how fast your legs are moving. The only thing that'll happen if you try and speed things up is injury.

[Chelli]

bruncle, on Mar 4 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

You won't hit 40:00 until you can run 19:10 for 5k. Rudolf is right, anything much faster than your 5k race pace isn't useful (except for striders for improved form). (3:30 pace is a LOT faster than VO2 max pace....) Instead of the overly complicated interval workout, just do 8x800 @ 3:55/km with 2:00 rest. Expand your long run to 15km and generally just run more. You're doing pretty well considering how little mileage you're running, but there's only so much you can gain from doing interval workouts. The bulk of your improvement will come from endurance, so just run more and you'll improve. I doubt you'll break 40:00 by easter. Running is a slow process no matter how fast your legs are moving. The only thing that'll happen if you try and speed things up is injury.

If Theactivepod can run 3km in 9:45 this would pretty much correspond to VO2 max pace as 3000m corresponds more closely to VO2max pace than 5km because it is run closer to the 10-12minutes that correlates to VO2max pace which is roughly run at you maximum heart rate and it is the maximum amount of oxygen you muscles can absorbe and utilise.  

The whole idea to run at Vo2max pace or 3 km race pace is to increase running economy with the increase running velocity which alot of joggers don't understand and it also means you can do more volume at this pace if you break it up into 1 km intervals. So you may do 5-9 intervals and this volume helps you get use of the pace required to race at 5-10km at a goal pace.

The problem seems to be more his anaerobic threshold is his low as a consequence in dying when running longer than 10 minutes. Once a  runner  runs longer than 10 minutes a runner needs a relatively high anaerobic threshold to be able to hold a high percentage of his 3000 metre race pace. In other words being able to run at a high high rate without his muscles tying up. To ensure this doesn't  happen the runner should train or do alot of lactate threshold runs in the 20-40 minute zone. This which give the runner enough endurance to race 5-10 km fairly hard and it trains the cardiovascular system to be able to hold a heart rate int he 90-95% of the athletes maximum for the duration of the race without the muscles reaching a melt down point.

The longer runs provides the fatigue resistance and the capillary density to keep the energy in the muscles more active. The longer runs also help keep the heart rate down to a minimum for a longer period of time because as the body becomes more efficient in using energy  the body conserves body temperature and is less likely to overheat or become dehydrated and exhausted as quickly.

Edited by Chelli, 04 March 2008 - 07:11 PM.

[Chelli]

bruncle, on Mar 4 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

You won't hit 40:00 until you can run 19:10 for 5k. Rudolf is right, anything much faster than your 5k race pace isn't useful (except for striders for improved form). (3:30 pace is a LOT faster than VO2 max pace....) Instead of the overly complicated interval workout, just do 8x800 @ 3:55/km with 2:00 rest. Expand your long run to 15km and generally just run more. You're doing pretty well considering how little mileage you're running, but there's only so much you can gain from doing interval workouts. The bulk of your improvement will come from endurance, so just run more and you'll improve. I doubt you'll break 40:00 by easter. Running is a slow process no matter how fast your legs are moving. The only thing that'll happen if you try and speed things up is injury.

If Theactivepod can run 3km in 9:45 this would pretty much correspond to VO2 max pace as 3000m corresponds more closely to VO2max pace than 5km because it is run closer to the 10-12minutes that correlates to VO2max pace which is roughly run at you maximum heart rate and it is the maximum amount of oxygen you muscles can absorbe and utilise.  

The whole idea to run at Vo2max pace or 3 km race pace is to increase running economy with the increase running velocity which alot of joggers don't understand and it also means you can do more volume at this pace if you break it up into 1 km intervals. So you may do 5-9 intervals and this volume helps you get use of the pace required to race at 5-10km.

The problem seems to be more his anaerobic threshold is his low as a consequence in dying when running longer than 10 minutes. Once a  runner  runs longer than 10 minutes a runner needs a relatively high anaerobic threshold to be able to hold a high percentage of his 3000 metre race pace. In other words being able to run at a high high rate without his muscles tying up. This can happen if the runner doesn't train or do alot of anaerobic or lactate threshold runs in the 20-40 minute zone. This which give the runner enough endurance to race 5-10km fairly hard and it trains the cardiovascular system to be able to hold a heart rate of 90-95% of the athletes maximum for the duration of the race without the muscles reaching a melt down point.

The longer runs provides the fatigue resistance and the capillary density to keep the energy in the muscles more active. The longer runs also help keep the heart rate down for a longer period of time because as the body becomes more efficient in using enegy and the body doesn't overheat or become dehydrated and exhausted as quickly.

Edited by Chelli, 04 March 2008 - 07:12 PM.

[Bellthorpe]

bruncle, on Mar 4 2008, 04:03 PM, said:

You're doing pretty well considering how little mileage you're running, but there's only so much you can gain from doing interval workouts. The bulk of your improvement will come from endurance, so just run more and you'll improve. I doubt you'll break 40:00 by easter.

Key words: "considering how little mileage you're running".

The OP wondered why his endurance wasn't there. I opined that it was because he wasn't doing any endurance training.

Too much speed work on too small a mileage base ...

[Brick]

bruncle, on Mar 4 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

You won't hit 40:00 until you can run 19:10 for 5k.

Sorry to tell you but this is not true, I have done it this year my PBs are:
5KM Hills Athletics 19:46 (20 Feb 08)
CRs Summer series Bay run. 39:41 (29 Feb 08)

The track/running surface makes a big difference to times so be careful what races you do.
Grass running track are hard work even for 5KM road/pavement running is a lot easier.
Never been on a hard track so can not tell you but I guess they are faster.

Maybe the difference between me and him is I have reasonable endurance so can keep a good pace for longer.

This comment is so true get the endurance and the speed will come, we do keep saying it.

bruncle, on Mar 4 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

The bulk of your improvement will come from endurance

Brick

Edited by Brick, 05 March 2008 - 07:14 AM.

[anzo]

The type of interval training is more intermediate, rather than aerobic.

Also you are running the intervals to fast and without sufficient rest.


For aerobic interval training you should be aiming of a 1:1 WR ratio and running the intervals at 75-80%MHR

Although by saying this I am assuming your are training for a long distance event 10km +