279 replies to this topic

[Buttle]

Vegie-girl, on Nov 3 2006, 02:16 PM, said:

Buttle I'm generally happy, but anything you want to do to make me happier . . .

I'll try extremely hard not to use the word extreme in any of my posts then, Vegie-girl.  
Anything to make you happy, or even extremely happy.  

[Rudolf]

Sparkie, on Nov 3 2006, 01:56 PM, said:

I am not aware of any cancer where diet is the primary causal factor, so no amount of dietary pokery-jiggery is going to eliminate age, race and genetic predisposition as factors.

By far the greatest impact on cancer death rates is early detection - exactly what the Movember campaign is trying to encourage.

Your comments are smug and offensive to anyone who has been touched by cancer.  There is a difference between being argumentative and being a p***k...

oh really ?
well Sparkie, p***k or not p***k, I of course strongly dissagree with Your personal view on the food-cancer link.
You have to face and tell that all those former cancer patients, who decided to change their nutrition and turned their live around (and healed themself of the cancer along the way).

There is a number of studies linking specific cancers and specific fod groups, there are studies about various isolated comunities etnic group with veruy specific type of diet and statisticaly very significant rate of overal cancer or specific cancers.

Meat eating is statisticaly signifacnt factor in this issue and those studies.

But the concept is more complicated than that.

Cancer happens when the imune system fails to recognize the cancer cells, sometimes imune system is too weak to fight them. Healthy, strong and properly functioning imune system (backed up by endicrine system) is dependant on various nutrients, and any one of them missing can mean a trouble. So how the nutrition could not be important to the imune system and cancer ?

Very well known example is vitamin 15 and 17, and suplementing by them help lots of people heal themself.
Guess what - these suplements are banened and ilegall, luckily for people there is still enough natural resources available. So back to nutrition.

Forget the cancer for a while - MENS HEALTH - not only prostate cancer, the strokes, heart, kidney, liver,nerve system,..... how nutrition could not be important, beats me.

So the old believe system - the personal model of the world.
Who describes different model of the world than mine, is a p***k.

Sparkie I do love You as much as that lamb on the picture. I would not have You for a dinner.

[plu]

Hi all,

See the last paragraph from my blog post yesterday.  The 'occasional'  is starting to happen.

Quote

One final point I would like to make is that I often feel uncomfortable with each sides (occasional) proactive attacks, avid defence and sometimes lack of respect for an individual's view, decision made and chosen lifestyle on the issue.

cheers  Plu

[Spud]

awiseman, on Nov 3 2006, 03:05 PM, said:

Now I hasten to add that this is all very hypothetical; my personal philosophy is for everyone to do what they feel comfortable with, whilst making the least imprint on the environment possible.

Vegetarianism as a lifestyle choice achieves this, the same cannot be said for demand on resources supporting the meat industry.

[laotze]

Spud, you are taking sides.

Rice - very vegetarian but the rice growing industry is having a huge impact on the Australian environment.  as it has done in Asia for centuries.  As lots of non meat foodstuffs do - wheat, grapes, stone fruit, corn, even bananas.

Vegetarians cannot claim the high  moral ground on environmental effects.

Besides, do vegetarians live in grass huts?  What about the infrastructure that supports the whole society in which we live - roads, water supplies, power, transport; have vegetarians benefited from these?  But have vegetarians built or paid for them?

No.  The reality is, that the vast majority of the productive humans, in all the world are omnivores.  the vegetarians' lifestyle is made possible by the sacrifice of centuries of meat eating workers and entrepreneurs.

Only the most primitive of human groups leave little imrint on the environment, and they are the Kalahari bushmen(and women) and they are omnivores.

[Rudolf]

awiseman, on Nov 3 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

Spud, you are taking sides.

Rice - very vegetarian but the rice growing industry is having a huge impact on the Australian environment.  as it has done in Asia for centuries.  As lots of non meat foodstuffs do - wheat, grapes, stone fruit, corn, even bananas.

Vegetarians cannot claim the high  moral ground on environmental effects.

Besides, do vegetarians live in grass huts?  What about the infrastructure that supports the whole society in which we live - roads, water supplies, power, transport; have vegetarians benefited from these?  But have vegetarians built or paid for them?

No.  The reality is, that the vast majority of the productive humans, in all the world are omnivores.  the vegetarians' lifestyle is made possible by the sacrifice of centuries of meat eating workers and entrepreneurs.

Only the most primitive of human groups leave little imrint on the environment, and they are the Kalahari bushmen(and women) and they are omnivores.

that is weirde reasoning.

This website exist because of one vegetarian, as an example.

I can argue with this - meat eaters are the agresive or depressed part of society.All the big criminals, violent characters etc are actually meat eaters, as the agresivity and other emotional imbalances are suported by the various hormons from dead animals.
Not only hormons which are fed into asnimals in modern farming methods, so this hormons are in dairy as well, but the hormons released in the moment of dying, the hormons of terror and fear, the hormons which in the situation of fatal danger helps the animal or humans to survive - they cause the fight or fly reaction.

So the criminals react on the fight hormons of killed animals.

Show me any murderers, rapist, massmurderrers who are vegans or vegetarian.

Further show me any vegan ploting the massmurders through the political activity, the people who send army overseas to kill for some other foreigh interest are meat eaters as well.

Morning powerwalking session of our infamous prime minister does not help him not to react to meat hormons, so he is the way he is and we all suffer.
The example of Bush goes 2 ways - not only he is a meat eater, he is also cattle farmer, the fact that he talks to his cows, just shows that he is so confused, that he think he is a bull.

The comming peace on Earth would be possible, because all kind of violence will stop, and that means
the meat eaters would either come to their sense or choose to leave the Earth.

As for Your rice farming example - I alredy wrote about that - it is foreign company, which was allowed because of current governement, it is completely unlogical, it destroyed 1 river system and killed 1 spieces of birds, and was very detailed talked about by senator Brown (Greens) this week, and he of course promissed to closed down this liberal foreign interest error, if the greens would gain any power next election.

destruction of environment for fun - burning petrol for nothing - or for danger - there was a news report on night illegal car racing in western sunbburb of Melbourne - every night there is gang of 18 000 teenagers with cars terorizing the streets, and only 2 police cars.
Can You try to guess, if this hormonaly disturbed teenagers are meateaters or vegans ?

Edited by Rudolf, 04 November 2006 - 06:31 AM.

[Davo]

Vegie-girl, on Nov 3 2006, 02:36 AM, said:

Can we please stop using the word "extreme"?  
I don't believe there is anything extreme about a vegetarian diet - beans or no beans.

Agree with you Veg. There is nothing whatsoever extreme about a vegetarian diet. But I think Buttle got it right: I was trying to say we can get too extreme (oops! there I go again!) in our reasoning occasionally.
Whilst seeing the wisdom in the old dictum "Everything in moderation" I have to say it seems a boring way to live all the time. I like to say "Everything in moderation - including being moderate".

Let's stop quibbling about words - and politics for that matter - and get back to vegetarianism. This is a good thread and I am enjoying it.

[Buttle]

18,000 teenagers terrorising the streets of Melbourne every night? Come off it Rudolf. Where do you get your information from?
And Hitler was a vegetarian.
It's not all one way you know.

[Rudolf]

Buttle, on Nov 4 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

18,000 teenagers terrorising the streets of Melbourne every night? Come off it Rudolf. Where do you get your information from?

TV news 2 days ago, do not remember if channel 7 or 9 ?

by the way, as I drive and look whats happening on the road, than I would say they are during the day as well, and eastern subburbs as well, so do not know why TV news was concentrating on western subburbs, perhaps one have to be there to know.

Hitler - but the guy who was financing him is a grandfather of one infamous Texan cattle rancher (Prescot Bush). Hitler was only a pupet who was going to bve sacrifyed at the end of war, which happened.

The masterminds looked like heros, and the german based masterminds were living happilly ever after helping with their expertize for decades...

so yes Hitler was vegetarian, what kind of stuff was mixed in into his food to make him that way ?

[Kazads]

Quote

I can argue with this - meat eaters are the agresive or depressed part of society.

I was not going to get involved in this, but Rudolf, your quote deserves a response from this little meat eating human being.

I am a meat eater and I can guarantee you that I am neither aggressive or depressed. To blanket meateaters as the criminals of the world is a massive generalisation...I believe that you are a product of your environment and upbringing (mental, emotional and physical), and whether you grow up to be aggressive or depressed, or a murderer, or whatever, has a lot more to do with whether or not you eat meat.

[Vegie-girl]

Godwin's Law strikes again:  As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

It was inevitable.

[Rudolf]

Kazads, on Nov 4 2006, 10:06 AM, said:

Quote

I can argue with this - meat eaters are the agresive or depressed part of society.

I was not going to get involved in this, but Rudolf, your quote deserves a response from this little meat eating human being.

I am a meat eater and I can guarantee you that I am neither aggressive or depressed. To blanket meateaters as the criminals of the world is a massive generalisation...I believe that you are a product of your environment and upbringing (mental, emotional and physical), and whether you grow up to be aggressive or depressed, or a murderer, or whatever, has a lot more to do with whether or not you eat meat.

look, how You explain the statistics ?

If You take this angle :

meat eating families, societes and cultures are more likely to influence the growing kid to become a zriminal ....


would You like it better ? I do not think so.

There were studies done on the effect of the stress hormones from the meat on humans (and other animals)
there were studies done, when this hormons were injected and no meat was consumed.

There were also studies done on humans wre they were froced on nonanimal diet in a controled environment, and they behaviour changed dramaticaly.
Perhaps the experiment when all the prisoners are forced on nonanimal diet would show the reality, but this experiment is not going to happen - since the powers need the criminalized society.

There were also studies done (and some of them by schools with no doctors involved), when the schol food was changed, and with cooperation with parents the food for kids at home was changed. The school situation changed so dramataicaly, lots of propbelems with attention, agresivity etc dissapeared, no more bullying in school and as a side effect the students grades went up. The teachers had a very easy job.

Dog owners would know this very well - to keep agresive guarding or fighting dog, You have to feed hinm meat - raw meat specifically. The dogs on biscuits, with no meat or raw meat in their diet, are more likely to lick and wellcome any home intruder.

[Rudolf]

I realized, I better stick with sport :

so the vegetarians are typicaly doing yoga, meditation, taichi, ultrarunning....

in contact sport where agresivity is required, like boxing, only meat eaters can make. From the history of box the stories on steak loading, and raw meat eating to build up the fighters agresivity...

Nobody won the boxing match on broccoli or rolled oats...

what is the % of vegetarian between runers or ultrarunners ?

and what is % of vegetarian between rugby aussie rules player etc - You just need the agresivity to make it and to winn it or simply to survive it.

[Beki]

Oh dear, what has poor Cazz started?

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Kazads.  I can't beleive that anyone would think that eating meat is the cause of all evil in this word.  To say that all murderers and rapists, etc are meat eaters and that is why is just plain silly.  If you follow that thought process you could link pretty much anything to the cause of crime

I don't agree with eating meat, but I certainly think that people should be free to make up their own minds.  I don't like to push the moral side of this on to others, but do feel that people should be make themselves aware of where the food comes from and how it has come to end up on their plates

I found an interesting book in Borders today "The Ethics of What We Eat", looks like a very good read with lots of food for thought (excuse the pun...).  It discusses the impact of our food on the environment, and not just meat

[Sparkie]

Quote

I can argue with this - meat eaters are the agresive or depressed part of society.

Given the tone of your posts on this and other threads, one could argue that you, Rodulf, are the most aggressive and depressed member of CoolRunning...

From a societal point of view, growing vegetables requires land, land requires defending, defence requires aggression...  Nature is nature, no matter where you get your nutrients from.

BTW athiests are seven times less likely to commit murder than religious believers, but I would not use this to say Christians are the homocidal part of society...

[rohan]

Rudolf, on Nov 4 2006, 12:22 AM, said:

so the vegetarians are typicaly doing yoga, meditation, taichi, ultrarunning....

AAARRRGGGGHHH!!!!

i am vegetarian.  i hate that stereotype!!

i think yoga, meditation and taichi are a wanky waste of time. (ultra running is a bit of a waste of time, but i can understand that one)
i don't own a kaftan, am not into eastern philosophy, do not smoke weed, am not a pinko leftist, or whatever other stereotypes are associated with vegetarians.

in fact your post makes me feel quite angry (and agressive) and i feel like punching your lights out!

ps. but i am not a murderer or rapist, so i suppose there are limits to my vegetarian aggression.

[rosie77]

http://www.goveg.com/vegetarian101.asp

I have just finished reading all the info on this site and on the Peta site, including watching "Meet Your Meat" and making my husband watch it too, I have been profoundly moved towards becoming a vegan, I don't expect it to be easy, but I know there is a lot of info & help out there to provide me with the motivation I need, wish me luck.

[Emrun]

Hmmm, yes, with you there Rohan.

Vegetarian, Vegan, Carnivore, Fruitarian, Canibal, what ever, we have all made our culinary choices for personal reasons and none of us can and should be slotted into a pigeon hole.

My reasons for becoming a Vego 12 years ago (as a wide eyed impressionable philosphy student when Peter Singer was lecturing in Ethics at Monash Uni how could I not!!) are still there at the core, however I have started eating fish again in the last 3 years or so, though not very often.  Now I guess you could call me a hypocrite but I don't represent myself as a vegetarian as such.

I respect everyone's choices, even if I don't agree with them and I was pleased to see that generally this thread continued to develop with some lively but generally very amicable debate.

And yes Hitler was a vegetarian and I could be wrong but I remember reading somewhere that the NAZI's were responsible for ensuring that Germany had (still have perhaps??) very strict rules around the issuing of hunting licences.  Prior to getting a licence applicants would have to pass tests to ensure they were aware of "humane" and responsible hunting practices, as opposed to some countries where I am sure any old bozo can get a licence and shoot to kill (sometimes, in an amusing twist, each other   ) - of course this is not to start a debate on their human rights record.

[tim]

Hitler was not a vego.  this is an internet myth.  One of his favourite meals was German sausages.

[tim]

rosie77, on Nov 4 2006, 02:08 PM, said:

http://www.goveg.com/vegetarian101.asp

I have just finished reading all the info on this site and on the Peta site, including watching "Meet Your Meat" and making my husband watch it too, I have been profoundly moved towards becoming a vegan, I don't expect it to be easy, but I know there is a lot of info & help out there to provide me with the motivation I need, wish me luck.

one of the most important things you can do is to set up a support network.  You will be made at times to feel like you are the crazy one but if you have people around you who have the same principles as you they can ground you again.

Your support network can be online.  I really like listening to The Vegan Freaks.  plus there are a few good message boards like the Queensland Vego Society

[Rudolf]

rohan, on Nov 4 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

i am vegetarian.  i hate that stereotype!!

i think yoga, meditation and taichi are a wanky waste of time. (ultra running is a bit of a waste of time, but i can understand that one)
i don't own a kaftan, am not into eastern philosophy, do not smoke weed, am not a pinko leftist, or whatever other stereotypes are associated with vegetarians.

that was not stereotype, simply the observation, comparing the chances of sport choices for vegetarians.

You come up with some stereotypes, which surprized me, I am with yoga for 35 years, even teaching it in the past, never smoke dope or any other drugs, have no idea what kaftan is. Most people I met through yoga wre health consious, so it was only natural they woyuld go vegetarian way, often yoga first, vegetarian later, and most of those who got interested in spiritual side of it, the history, the old original texts etc, would come across the ethical issue of animals as food.

Prove me wrong and give me bigger vego% among footballer or rugby players than among yoga, taichi,
or ultrarunning.
I do not claim I have current statistical data on this, this is just my observation and observation of other people I talk to.
You are wellcome to come up with Your own personal observation or with the valid statistical data.

[rohan]

rudolf,
nope i don't have the percentages, but i think your observations are reflective of who you are hanging out with, not of vegetarians as a whole.
i agree that a higher percentage of yoga, tai chi practioners etc. are vegetarians... but you worded it the other way around claiming

Quote

so the vegetarians are typicaly doing yoga, meditation, taichi, ultrarunning...

i would argue that the majority of vegetarians are not doing those things.
i'll go out on a limb here, and theorize that those vegetarians doing the meditation etc. are those into alternative things in general.  for some of this group vegetarianism is a hobby.

now my observations of the vegetarians i meet are that they do triathlons and marathons and they just are vegetarians and it isn't a hobby, and they aren't into proseletyzing, and they basically don't give much of a damn about the philosophy. this of course proves little as it just shows who i have been associating with, but it does show a much different slice of vegetarians to what you are portraying.

as for considering yoga, tai chi and meditation sports!! hobbies yes, recreation yes, but hardly sports... unless you have that expansive definition of sports that includes recreations such as darts and chess.

[Rudolf]

Rohan, I was making different point - to compare vegetarian and meat eaters from the ponit of choosing sport with agression or not, or contact sport or not.
running triathlon is still noncontact sport, and I am comparing al Your groups and mine groups together vs footys rugbys and boxing, where the agresivity is required and therefore only meat eaters are likely to make it.

If You wanna discusse the meaning of words, perhaps if sport is something which needs to have a competitions than yoga taichi is not sport, but if sport is some physical regular activity which makes You stronger more flexible, improves Your health and fitness, (and yes there are yoga routines which greatly challnege the endurance too ), than yoga could be one of the most effective, but than again some people call sport burning the petrol and tyres, or slashing the horse by whipe and sitting on the horse back...

[Spud]

awiseman, on Nov 3 2006, 11:22 PM, said:

Spud, you are taking sides.

Rice - very vegetarian but the rice growing industry is having a huge impact on the Australian environment.  as it has done in Asia for centuries.  As lots of non meat foodstuffs do - wheat, grapes, stone fruit, corn, even bananas.

Vegetarians cannot claim the high  moral ground on environmental effects.

Besides, do vegetarians live in grass huts?  What about the infrastructure that supports the whole society in which we live - roads, water supplies, power, transport; have vegetarians benefited from these?  But have vegetarians built or paid for them?

No.  The reality is, that the vast majority of the productive humans, in all the world are omnivores.  the vegetarians' lifestyle is made possible by the sacrifice of centuries of meat eating workers and entrepreneurs.

Only the most primitive of human groups leave little imrint on the environment, and they are the Kalahari bushmen(and women) and they are omnivores.

Of course I'm taking sides, that is the nature of a debate isn't it?
Agreed growing rice is having an affect on the Australian environment and in fact it should not be grown here at all. There are plenty of unsustainable industries in Australia but that's for another argument.
The only type of meat industry that would be sustainable and have less impact on the environment would be kangaroo meat.

That doesn't take away from the fact that killing animals for food is unecessary and indeed cruel whereas the growing of grains, vegetables and fruit for food is necessary. We can do a lot for the enviroment by simply cutting meat from our diet.

[Sparkie]

From today's Crikey - does my total avoidance of gambling get me some redemption points?

It won’t be fun and frivolity for all at this year’s Melbourne Cup. While the punters are trying to beat the odds and indulging in strawberries and champagne, spare a thought for the stars of the show, many of whom will be relentlessly whipped.

There are no redeeming aspects to flogging horses. Leading horse trainer Monty Roberts, who provides advice to the Queen on all things horsey, has noted that speed technology measuring devices have shown that horses in fact normally slow down after being whipped. Moreover, 86 per cent of racing accidents involve the use of whips.

Now it shouldn’t come as a shock that there’s a bit of animal cruelty on the turf. When it comes to talking up the interests of beings that don’t talk, as a species humans have a gaping moral black spot. We stand idly by and allow millions of animals to be subjected to wanton acts of cruelty each year.

The main reason for this is that the average punter has no idea of the human savagery occurring behind the farm fence. It doesn’t help that animal welfare laws in Australia don’t extend to most of the 500 million production animals in this country.

While horse whipping barely registers on the pain register compared to the acts of barbarity that occur in the animal farming process, whipping remains disconcerting because it is done in full public glare.

The frequency of the practice seems to have desensitised us to its depravity. It is time that we looked at the practice afresh and recalibrated our sympathy gland. If 100,000 plus spectators are content to watch live beings being flogged, what chance is there for those animals that suffer acutely in secret?

Of course there is a place in our community for the horse whip. It belongs alongside the school strap in the museum as an example of past brutality.

Still, the horses getting whipped are the lucky ones. It gets far worse when they finish their careers. Animal liberation has launched a public awareness campaign  to coincide with the spring racing carnival informing the community of the fact that there are almost no happy endings for race horses.

Nearly all ex-race horses are killed in order to feed our cats and dogs. Most of the horses that avoid this fate endure a 10-14 hour road trip to Peterborough in South Australia where they are killed and their meat is exported to Japan to be eaten by humans.

Either way there is no value or fair bet as far as the horses are concerned.

[Rudolf]

thanks Sparkie, I did not wanted to start the subject, but it is important.
On the other forum I wrote something like this :

Let all the horse owners, trainers and jockeys to run the course with 10kg backpack, and whoever breakes the leg, sprain the ankle etc, would be shot down...

I remember back in my country, when I was a kid, the horse racing was big, and the courses very dangerous, lots of horses shot down. There was a meat production line, which was dedicated to making horse salami from racing horses. The salami was very sweat and yummy. was my favorite, that was before I come across yoga and yoga related philosophy

[inhisshadow]

I know I am coming in late to this enthralling discussion but if we are to look at a pure biological level our teeth are not really designed for the consumption of meat (our teeth are far more like cows than lions!) - nor is the acidity of our stomache truly capable of breaking down the enzymes of said meat. That said all things in moderation and you should be OK, especially the great rack of lamb I had for dinner tonight.

Another worthy consideration in the entire meat = aggression debate, one that managed to slip under the radar is the role refined sugar has in our society. Sugar is one of the greatest scourges to our modern diet - and I am reasonably confident to say that a school teacher would prefer a classroom full of 30 kids that just tucked into a T-Bone steak over a classroom full of sugar addled kids bouncing off the wall. ADD, ADHD bah!! too much sugar and chemicals in your diet (colours, flavours, preservatives). One of the most interesting reads I have ever had was a book entitled sugar blues, if you can get your hands on it read it.

Anyway my final point, another theory blood type can determine your desire for meat/vigorous exercise etc. You will find that a lot of people who are drawn to vegetarianism gentle exercise are from the A type, and the O type are your meat eating vigorous exercising group (while your B are the lucky well rounded types!) Theory only but interesting nonetheless.

OK I think I can hop down from the soap box now

[THE KEG]

tim, on Nov 4 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

Hitler was not a vego.  this is an internet myth.  One of his favourite meals was German sausages.

Hitler was a vegetarian from 1931 on.
People are very selective of facts.
I don't care what others eat but never tell me what to eat .
Humans seem to be able to survive on a wide range of diets however extreme.A natural diet of meat and / or vegetables seems to be the way to go.
How can anyone live without oysters and prawns?

[tim]

THE KEG, on Nov 7 2006, 11:19 PM, said:

tim, on Nov 4 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

Hitler was not a vego.  this is an internet myth.  One of his favourite meals was German sausages.

Hitler was a vegetarian from 1931 on.
People are very selective of facts.
I don't care what others eat but never tell me what to eat .

"Hitler would occasionally go on vegetarian binges to cure himself of excessive sweatiness and flatulence, but that his main diet was meat-centered. Robert Payne, Albert Speer, and other well-known Hitler biographers, who mentioned Hitler's predilection for such nonvegetarian foods as Bavarian sausages, ham, liver, and game."

yes people are selective of facts.

Quote

I don't care what others eat but never tell me what to eat .

The fact that people are living healthy happy lives without animal product shows it is not a health issue.  So the only reason people eat meat is because of the taste, enjoyment, comfort or laziness to change.  

Is this enough to justify the torture and murder of sentient beings?

If someone was beating a dog outside your house because they enjoyed it and it was what they had always done would that simply be their choice to do so or should we try to stop them?

I see a diet that includes animal products being the same as the person beating the dog.  Only most people do not beat the dog directly but pay someone else to do it for them.  

I would like to see an end to the killing.  Animals have their own interests and their own value.  They do not need to be treated in such a way.  How can we live in peace when everyday we are committing such atrocities for our dinner?

[THE KEG]

[Here are some facts.....








http://en.wikipedia....of_Adolf_Hitler

Edited by THE KEG, 08 November 2006 - 12:02 AM.

[Rudolf]

tim, on Nov 7 2006, 11:51 PM, said:

I see a diet that includes animal products being the same as the person beating the dog.  Only most people do not beat the dog directly but pay someone else to do it for them.  

I would like to see an end to the killing.  Animals have their own interests and their own value.  They do not need to be treated in such a way.  How can we live in peace when everyday we are committing such atrocities for our dinner?

yes the dogs. week ago at the world vegan day, there was a small group of asian girls, with some photos, posters etc, and the theme was - stop eating cats and dogs.

I kind of was surprize, like my first reaction was - what You doing here ?, should talk to asian community,
but quickly remember the dims sims I use to buy and eat years ago.
Little bit of talking to them and I realize the issue is bigger, than just small asian comunities eating occasioanl dogs and cats, or selling dims sims from their shops to other ethnic groups.
There apparently is an australian export to asia - live dogs and cats for food, and they were showing the pictures of crowded cages on cargo ship.
The public does not have a clue about this.

[Rudolf]

inhisshadow, on Nov 7 2006, 10:26 PM, said:

Another worthy consideration in the entire meat = aggression debate, one that managed to slip under the radar is the role refined sugar has in our society. Sugar is one of the greatest scourges to our modern diet - and I am reasonably confident to say that a school teacher would prefer a classroom full of 30 kids that just tucked into a T-Bone steak over a classroom full of sugar addled kids bouncing off the wall. ADD, ADHD bah!! too much sugar and chemicals in your diet (colours, flavours, preservatives). One of the most interesting reads I have ever had was a book entitled sugar blues, if you can get your hands on it read it.

Anyway my final point, another theory blood type can determine your desire for meat/vigorous exercise etc. You will find that a lot of people who are drawn to vegetarianism gentle exercise are from the A type, and the O type are your meat eating vigorous exercising group (while your B are the lucky well rounded types!) Theory only but interesting nonetheless.

agree with the sugar danger, health wise fro physical and mental side, also sugar vs teachers and classrooms.

But there is a difference between true aggression (crime of murder, torture, kids bullies) and hyperactivity
caused by sugar, the hyperactivity does not have true aggresion energy in it.
And it takes only few days or hours, to stabilize kid going cold turkey on sugar and colourings, and the hyperactivity is gone, and there are no crime victims left behind.

The blood type diet was a big hit, I was kind of into it too, however it looks like just a fashion - comes and goes, latest thinking of blood type diet is, that there is nothing to it, sorry.

[Sparkie]

Quote

According to transcripts dated November 11, 1941 Hitler said, "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."

Strange bedfellows.  Amusing is not the word, but a man who killed 6 million Jews (and others lest we overlook them) found slaughterhouses upsetting!

Some philisophical questions (and I am not shit stirring).  
* If the raising and killing of animals could be achieved in a pain free manner (and all animals die - farming just alters the timing), would that still make it unethical.
* Is eating a wild animal that has been hunted less cruel than a farm raised animal?  
* Are animal products extracted in a non-painful manner (free-range eggs, milk if the farm is well run, wool) considered animal cruelty?  
* Is a vegan who rides a motorbike and wears a leather jacket and boots (this is not aimed at anyone in particular) any less cruel?  
* Clearing land to grow vegetables destroys the habitats of animals - is this acceptable?

The problem with ethical positions is they can be extrapolated to these sorts of conundrums.  That is not to say we shouldn't take ethical stands, just that it can be a slippery slope, and the higher the moral ground, the smaller the room you have to stand on.

[Rudolf]

Sparkie, to be honest, for me motorbike riders are all in 1 baskett, regardless if vegans or carnivors.

Milking on the farm is never innocent, in nature the cow would have only enough milk to feed the babies, and only for that period of time. However calfs are taken away so the milk is for human and the milking is extended by draining the cows daily to last for longer period, Cow is artificialy inseminated to become preganat straight away, so the milking process basically never stops (with some brief periods perhaps).
So cruelty happens not only by draining the cow daily, but by deneying the calfs the mothers milk, and the poore cow is not only abused on its tits by the machines, the cow actually never sees the adult bull and never gets any real action.

I read somewhere some futuristic story about apes ruling the world and keeping the humans - females in
small roooms in block of flats, being artificialy inseminated all trhe times, milked for the small apes and dairy ape industry, smalll human babies were used for sausages - boys, girls were psed up with hormons and antiobiotics to get them to lactation stage before the age of 10.
I did not like that story at all.

By the way, the number 6 milions never could be proven as it officialy a crime to investigate this part of history

[Derwood]

Sorry, guys. I'm not buying the meat= aggression argument.

Nearly all of the worlds agressive people have one thing in common. They are men.


Meat eating women are distinctly absent from our violent history, with some notable exceptions. Most of the aggressive crimes (caused now and in history) are attributable to men. 90% of domestic violence in Oz is caused by men. 93% of the US prsion population is male. In India, a predominately vegetarian country, women make up only 2% of all prisoners.


If you were a statistician beamed down from another planet and didn't know any human history, sent down here to find out the root cause of aggression in human society, you would easily conlcude that men are the casue of the problem, irrespective of what they eat. Those stats don't lie. You can analyse what they eat, what religion they beleive in, what system of government they have, but thats all secondary to the one common denominator: almost all are male.

I often go running at night but my wife doesn't. Not from fear of meat-eaters, but from fear of men, be that vegetarian or carnivore. All have testosterone.

If more than half the world are vegetarian, as you say Tim, then there are a hell of a lot of aggressive vegetarian men out there as well. as the meat eating variety.

[Sparkie]

Quote

By the way, the number 6 milions never could be proven as it officialy a crime to investigate this part of history

It was a very big number whatever it was.  Anyone who tries to obfuscate this needs to seriously examine what their motives are.

[Mister G]

Moderators shouldn't indulge hijacks, but what the hell...

tim, on Nov 7 2006, 10:51 PM, said:

THE KEG, on Nov 7 2006, 11:19 PM, said:

tim, on Nov 4 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

Hitler was not a vego.  this is an internet myth.  One of his favourite meals was German sausages.

Hitler was a vegetarian from 1931 on.
People are very selective of facts.
I don't care what others eat but never tell me what to eat .

"Hitler would occasionally go on vegetarian binges to cure himself of excessive sweatiness and flatulence, but that his main diet was meat-centered. Robert Payne, Albert Speer, and other well-known Hitler biographers, who mentioned Hitler's predilection for such nonvegetarian foods as Bavarian sausages, ham, liver, and game."

yes people are selective of facts.

Interesting question. Fritz Redlich wrote the definitive medical casebook of Hitler and Ian Kershaw wrote the benchmark biography.

Pages 261-2 of Kershaw mention a dinner Hitler had in 1924 (after release from prison) with his party colleagues, the Hanfstaengls, where Hitler ate turkey but consumed almost no wine. He explained that he had started to cut out meat and alcohol to lose weight. Hanfstaengl then adds that Hitler started to believe meat and alcohol were harmful and "in his fanatical way, finally made a dogma out of it and from then on only took vegetarian meals and alcohol free drinks."

Pages 77 and 78 of Redlich state that Hitler may have become vegetarian after his niece's death in 1931. As a young man, and as a soldier on WW1, he "certainly ate meat", and probably continued to do so until at least his 1924 imprisonment. "Hitler's vegetarianism was quite strict. He praised raw food but did not adhere to a diet of uncooked foods, which was a fad at the time. He avoided any kind of meat, with the exception of an Austrian dish he loved, liver dumpling. For a while he ate cooked and canned fish, but later the only animal products he consumed were mile, butter and cottage cheese... with rare excpetions after the early thirties Hitler did not consume alcoholic beverages; just occasionally a glass of beer or wine...."

My take on this is that, like most of us, Hitler's diet evolved over time. After his release from prison in 1924 he probably cut out red meat and reduced his alcohol intake to lose weight, as he said at the time, and over following years gradually eliminated white meats, further cut down on alcohol etc, until he was a strict vegetarian many years later. Those who said they saw him eat meat were probably right, but it was either earlier in his life or a rare exception to his diet regime. Interesting to note that he continued to eat poultry for a while after cutting out white meat- Tim mentions that he ate "game"...

[Gundy]

Hey Rudolf - What about the undisputed fact that 100% of all violent crimes are committed by people that breathe a mixture of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% other gases?

[Rudolf]

Gundy, on Nov 8 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

Hey Rudolf - What about the undisputed fact that 100% of all violent crimes are committed by people that breathe a mixture of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% other gases?

what about it ?

do You recon, if You change the mixture somehow, the crime will disapear ?

[Rudolf]

Sparkie, on Nov 8 2006, 10:11 AM, said:

Quote

By the way, the number 6 milions never could be proven as it officialy a crime to investigate this part of history

It was a very big number whatever it was.  Anyone who tries to obfuscate this needs to seriously examine what their motives are.

my only motivation is to search for truth.

what is Yours ?

[Gundy]

This has been an at times interesting and at other times very frustrating discussion.

I'm not a vegetarian and have no problem with those that are. My main issue is with people who undertake the decision to become vegetarian because of ethical reasons and then seem to view me as a second class citizen. Sparkie summed it up for me earlier when he said "the higher the moral ground, the smaller the room you have to stand on."

Just being alive and living in a modern society has many adverse environmental impacts. The decision to not eat meat may be an admirable one from a cruelty to animals point of view but it doesn't make you a saint.

What clothes are you wearing today? Cotton and you're an environmental vandal, wool or leather and you're cruel to animals, synthetics and you've just kept the petrochemical industry ticking along.

What manufactured goods do you own and who manufactured them? I bet the sweatshop workers who made your running shoes are glad of your position on cruelty to animals.

Do you own a cat and what native bird has it eaten this morning?

[Gundy]

Rudolf, on Nov 7 2006, 09:17 AM, said:

Gundy, on Nov 8 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

Hey Rudolf - What about the undisputed fact that 100% of all violent crimes are committed by people that breathe a mixture of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% other gases?

what about it ?

do You recon, if You change the mixture somehow, the crime will disapear ?

No I was being ironic. Statistics can prove anything you want.
Do you believe that if the world turned vegetarian today that all crime would disappear?

[Davo]

Sparkie, on Nov 7 2006, 11:11 PM, said:

It was a very big number whatever it was.

I'm not a prude, as anyone who has read my posts will know. And nothing against you Sparkie, who I have never met. But I thought we had a policy against the use of such language.

[Jogger]

I have edited the bad word. We have a bad word filter, but I hadn't configured it right. It should work now. (I just tested it and it worked).

[Rudolf]

Gundy, on Nov 8 2006, 11:38 AM, said:

Rudolf, on Nov 7 2006, 09:17 AM, said:

Gundy, on Nov 8 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

Hey Rudolf - What about the undisputed fact that 100% of all violent crimes are committed by people that breathe a mixture of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% other gases?

what about it ?

do You recon, if You change the mixture somehow, the crime will disapear ?

No I was being ironic. Statistics can prove anything you want.
Do you believe that if the world turned vegetarian today that all crime would disappear?

many posting ago I was addressing this issues, the experiments were done. Just brief repeat - experiment, when the hormons extract from the meat - the stress hormons released by the animal being killed - were given to the subject (no meat itself) and it caused the same reaction - of fear and agrression - the fight or flight syndrom.
The same reaction You would have if a loaded gun would be pointed to Your head, or the gang with knives would ambush You in a dark alley. Thats how human were suposed to survive - to fight or fly , depending on the situation.

There are these hormons, which cause the human behaviour of fear and agression. These studies were done few decades ago, and I read them back in europe.

Guess what - I did not come across such studies here or in english official media, perhaps they are accessible through search engines, I do not know, I did not have a need to read it again.

[Sparkie]

Quote

I'm not a prude, as anyone who has read my posts will know. And nothing against you Sparkie, who I have never met. But I thought we had a policy against the use of such language.

I fully expect these things to be edited out - I agree with the policy.  I just hope Rudi's intimations at Holocaust denial offend more people than my use of the 'f' word

[tim]

I do not see veganism as the moral high ground but as a starting point.  It will not cure the world of all issues.  There will still be violence and environmental problems etc.  It does not end death and suffering but it does greatly reduce it.  It eases some of the burdens on the environment and it is starting to look like it can solve some of the health issues we are seeing today.  It is not a stand alone philosophy and the end to world hunger and the issues with sweat shops etc are also issues we need to deal with.

But as I said above if you choose to eat meat you choose to inflict unnecessary suffering on intelligent creatures.  It is unnecessary because you do not need to eat it for your health.  It really is that simple.

There is some effort involved in the beginning but there was some effort involved at the beginning of my running life.  Come to think about it there is still some effort involved in my running life.  

So if this discussion stirs in you the desire to make the change stop thinking about it.  Google it.  read about it, google some recipes, buy a few books, find a support group.  Just do it!

and that goes to all you milk drinking, egg eating vegos too.  Those chickens laying those eggs aren't having a wonderful life you know.

I am not posting this to win an argument.  I am simply trying to help those on the edge of change jump.

[errorfilenotfound]

tim. wonderful. love u.

[Gundy]

Tim - Yep good post and I can fully appreciate and understand your position.

Rudolf - sometimes a simple yes or no answer is sufficient.

[Rudolf]

Sparkie, on Nov 8 2006, 12:30 PM, said:

I just hope Rudi's intimations at Holocaust denial offend more people

Sparkie, You completely twisted the issue, and I am asking Your question again - whats the motive behind it?

the use of word denial is interesting strategy also. What denial - I did not such thing.

Denial in my standard is when some thing are not allowed to be looked at, or talked about, because it can be ...? what?

So You hope people would get offended as a result of my post ??? Great, so what exactly should people offend from my post ?

All I did was questioned Your 6 mil number . The discusion could go any further about this, beacuse is against the law worldwide.
Than You questioned my motives - ?
Truth should be offensive ?