35 replies to this topic

[Phoenix]

Hi! Can anybody offer advice on how to run downhills correctly, fluently? Downhills seem to be my nemesis (one of many) I'm so tentative about over-impact on my legs I seem to slow to a crawl...

[Gronk]

The Oz Mountain Running site has good advice.

[felisaffie]

Phoenix, on Nov 28 2006, 08:28 AM, said:

Hi! Can anybody offer advice on how to run downhills correctly, fluently? Downhills seem to be my nemesis (one of many) I'm so tentative about over-impact on my legs I seem to slow to a crawl...

I often get stuck on hills for this reason, It makes me feel ill going down cause it makes my legs so wobbly. Maybe it is better to leap. I always wish there was a slide down the other side.

[Rabbits]

[font=Arial][size=2]This is an interesting thread...

I usually consider myself to be quite a good downhill runner but my approach or technique is quite different to what is suggested in the mountain running article. I lean back into the slope and make sure that I place my feet a little further in front so I don't end up landing too hard. It ends up feeling as though I'm just rolling down the hill with my feet just taking my weight as my momentum pushes me along. I've never had any major problems with soreness although admittedly most of my runs are only around 10km.

In the races I've run in I find that I seem more comfortable and faster than the majority of runners going downhill. I attribute some of this to technique and the rest to my size (or lack of it) as I'm only about 55kg which takes a fair bit of strain of the knees.

I'd be really to interested to know what other peoples thoughts or techniques were for tackling the downhills

While we're on the topic... how do people do the uphill sections? I usually just shorten my stride and plug away until I get there!

[MPHinLondon]

Little regard for personal safety or leg pains post race is the key to getting down as quick as possible I find. If you worry about those things you won't get down as fast as you're able to.

It just takes a bit of practice to build the leg strength, quick turnover and confidence, but god it's fun when you do!

[MissZ]

MPH, on Nov 28 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

Little regard for personal safety or leg pains post race is the key to getting down as quick as possible I find.

Leg pains post race - tell me about it! I am currently suffering the after-effects of the descent down Mt Ainslie in Canberra in the Sri Chinmoy Triple Triathlon on Sunday. I have NEVER been this sore before. But it was wonderful fun at the time.
Mountain running champion Emma Murray flew past me earlier in the run, I would have loved to see how she negotiated the steep downhill sections. I just try to stay light on my feet and let go of my fear - a little bit.

[Stalky]

Phoenix, on Nov 27 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

Hi! Can anybody offer advice on how to run downhills correctly, fluently? Downhills seem to be my nemesis (one of many) I'm so tentative about over-impact on my legs I seem to slow to a crawl...

I think to get better at anything you have to practise and develope your technique,start on a grassy hill about 150 to 200 metres in length and do not lean back as this causes a breaking effect you have to let yourself go, if you are worried about injury leaning back will cause jarring to your legs, running down hill like this also enhances your leg speed as well. Runners like Emma have honed their skill over time they develope good eye foot coordination and this takes a lot of practise.

[southy]

If you lean backwards you will be jarring & braking as you go - it will put more stress on your knees and your spine. I lean forward slightly & let her go (but make sure you have safe footing). As someone else said - practice on a nice soft grassy slope first that is not to steep. Then build up to a steeper slope. I love downhills. Lean forward slightly and take the shock in your quads.

[FakePlasticTrees]

I watched Fats bail past me in a recent KJ mountain run and learnt something. Little regard for staying on your feet is the way to go. It's basically controlled falling only putting your feet down for long enough to move the next one forward.

I'm trying to think back to what Emma Murray was saying at the training camp I was on. I think she said that she takes short strides going downhill. Longer ones cause the braking effect mentioned elsewhere.

[Rabbits]

I seem to be the only one in the lean back camp at the moment which is interesting.... and a little concerning

I can certainly understand the theory as to why leaning back could increase jarring in the knees but I don't find it to be the case. I tend to think the worst jarring occurs when you try and stop your momentum as you're going down, i.e. go too slowly. I wouldn't suggesting hurtling down a hill at breakneck speed but as long as you let your momentum keep flowing down the hill then jarring isn't too much of a problem.

When I run I tend to place my feet rather than land heavily and take the impact with my knees.

I'm now keen to try leaning forward but I don't think I'll be changing my tried and tested method... each to his own I suppose

[Martin Dugdale]

I tend to let my body weight dictate my speed by attempting to stay perpendicular to the surface and then only use sufficient energy to move my legs with no lift. the problem of course is stopping ut so far so good.

[dana]

I love how your mind works super fast (offroad) downhill running, like mtbing or paddling rapids, its all about avoiding the rocks!! Its all been said above, but a certain amount of trust in your own coordination is vital to maintain the momentum. This can come from stacking it a couple of times and knowing its not all that bad.

Best downhill run (in a race!) for me, was Lorne Anaconda 05, that single track twisting steep hill down to the Cumberland River, GREAT FUN!!! Made up heaps of time I lost on the relentless uphill! I think I run perpendicular to the ground and perhaps being really short heaps?? If you run downhill like you're actually really trying is another way of testing if you could go even faster. The end of the City to Surf in Perth is a good downhill, always amazed me some people kinda jog it even in the 4 1/2 min-km region, after going hard for 12kms, I love the end, set your sights on someone way down the hill and then rocket, perhaps its due to being built like a cannonball?

Miss Z, condolences re legs! Yes quads and knees do take it all for sure, but of course you do this in a race and you'll not be walking fine the next day..or the next... But it doesn't hurt when you're doing it !!

[azza]

For me, I stay either upright or lean slightly forward, and concentrate on keeping my feet turning over steadily (not increasing or decreasing the turnover). As I pick up speed, I fel like I am floating down the hill. If I need to slow down, I lean back and my weight shifts to my heels; to go faster I lean a bit more forward and my weight goes further on my toes, pulling me down the hill. Technique has been refined on the post-Anderson Street downhill around the Tan - for Melbourne runners, a great place to practice going up and down.
As mentioned above, I think the key is confidence - knowing you're not going to fall - or being too silly to care if you do!

For me, I stay either upright or lean slightly forward, and concentrate on keeping my feet turning over steadily (not increasing or decreasing the turnover). As I pick up speed, I fel like I am floating down the hill. If I need to slow down, I lean back and my weight shifts to my heels; to go faster I lean a bit more forward and my weight goes further on my toes, pulling me down the hill. Technique has been refined on the post-Anderson Street downhill around the Tan - for Melbourne runners, a great place to practice going up and down.
As mentioned above, I think the key is confidence - knowing you're not going to fall - or being too silly to care if you do!

[Fats]

Handbrake off, brain in neutral is the way to go. If you think about it too much then you'll fall.

It is possible to improve quite a lot with practice - seems to have worked for me. Work on developing you foot-eye coordination ("fast feet") and resist the urge to lean back. It is always better to lean forward and let go a bit. Try to avoid "bounding", instead turning your legs over as fast as possible.

On rough ground be prepared to do a "dummy step" if you land awkwardly to prevent an ankle sprain. This requires good proprioception, but if you catch it quickly enough you can recover on the other foot and carry on running. If that doesn't work then you roll.

Proprioception can be improved by standing in the shower on one leg with your eyes closed, or probably better on one of those wobble board things.

[Luckylegs]

Peak Performance has a few articles on downhill running. "Library" on left side of page is worth looking at for anything else running related. For me, as others have said : forward lean & let gravity do all the work! LL

[laotze]

I am a lean forward a little and let the speed build up type. This works really well on even surfaces, such as road or paved path races, including in marathons.

Off road, I try to do the same but with fierce concentration on where my feet are going to land and what is coming up. I find a kind of dancing motion helps negotiate rocky twisty bits. But if you get too fast on uneven downhills, you find you cannot pull up easily and it gets quite scary.

Sadly, no matter what training I do, when I do hard downhills, such as Six Foot Track, or the Nailcan Hill or Mt Nowa Nowa, my quads are wrecked for days. No amount of training seems to condition them for the steep down hill eccentric contraction or whatever it is.

But while I am doing it it doesn't hurt. Except for the last descent into the Jenolan Caves finish.

If you find out how to stop the damage, please let me know.

[stuey]

I had a practice run on the anaconda run course at Lorne on Sun. Quads are still sore from the downhill. Apparently practicing on shorter downhills helps your quads for up to around 6 weeks, I'll have some accurate feedback on this after anaconda on dec 10. Uphill running seems to limited by cardio performance.

[dcl]

It's a lot about confidence. Steep downhill running is a skill and it helps to think of it as almost a different activity to running on the flat.

keep your abs and mid section strong and let gravity do the work. Don't be scared at high speeds. Practise quick turnover and try to exercise minimal braking. Trust your reflexes to keep your feet in the right place. Actually I've found that I'm less likely to slip if I have confidence compared to "holding back". If your steps are very quick you don't have time to turn an ankle or slip.

I reckon that downhill running is one area where slower runners can improve performances a lot purely through technique and skill.

[Spud]

Would like to hear from Whippet on this one, I've never seen anyone moving as quickly as him on a downhill, especially if there's some technical stuff included.
As for me, I lean into the hill (up or down) try to remain perpendicular to the incline or decline in this instance, short strides and off you go. Still requires a lot of practice and a strong core would help too I imagine.
After Brindabella this year I now realise how important it is to train on long downhills, I was smashed up for at least 2 weeks afterwards.

[FakePlasticTrees]

Spud, on Nov 28 2006, 03:52 PM, said:

As for me, I lean into the hill (up or down) try to remain perpendicular to the incline or decline in this instance, short strides and off you go.

Spud, wouldn't this require you to lean away from the hill going up to remain perpendicular?

[Spud]

Brain fart FPT, nicely picked up, of course I mean perpendicular only on the downhill, lean into the hill on uphill. I need more sleep...

[Stu Mac]

dcl, on Nov 28 2006, 03:39 PM, said:

It's a lot about confidence. Steep downhill running is a skill and it helps to think of it as almost a different activity to running on the flat.


I reckon that downhill running is one area where slower runners can improve performances a lot purely through technique and skill.

I totally agree with both statements, whilst not saying I am a good downhill runner, I do know that I seem to pass more people downhill than in any other part of a cross country race. A few years ago my coach suggested that I do some downhill slope training, as he was interested to see if I was like my oldest son who is a very good downhill runner.

With some practise and confidence I found this to be quite good, the suggestions that where made to me, be confident, open your stance (arms/elbows), drop your hips a little to help with stabilitiy/balance, lean forward and be confident (yep twice).

[clanrunner]

I tend to overtake a lot of people going downhill, far moreso than when on flat or uphill. Running downhill, I take long loping strides, almost more or a jump or a skip than a step. When I land, I try to propel myself quickly, and swing the rear leg forward as quick as I can. It is always less effort for me than flat or uphill running, and can be a chance to catch up some breath for the next bit, as well as gaining some forward momentum.

[Cl@rkey]

Practise practise practise.

Then on race day, just let it flow!!

For me stride length is dictated by the slope, the steeper the slope it is more about gravity, if it is less of an incline I will actually push things along down the hill.

A good downhill can more than make up for lost time on the uphill....

[Whippet Man]

Spud, on Nov 28 2006, 02:52 PM, said:

Would like to hear from Whippet on this one, I've never seen anyone moving as quickly as him on a downhill, especially if there's some technical stuff included.
As for me, I lean into the hill (up or down) try to remain perpendicular to the incline or decline in this instance, short strides and off you go. Still requires a lot of practice and a strong core would help too I imagine.
After Brindabella this year I now realise how important it is to train on long downhills, I was smashed up for at least 2 weeks afterwards.

Brindy is a slog fest. A brutal quad mashing classic slog fest. It deserves much respect. I prefer the technical descents.
You can definitely improve with training and technique on downhills. I have watched Tim improve significantly with practice.
For me it is all about leaning slightly forward, don't brake, fast leg turn-over, look ahead and plan your line (talking technical trail here), have good core, leg and especially ankle strength, good shoes for traction, disengage the fear function in your brain and go like hell. You will get hurt occasionally but you just have to accept that. It really is worth it. Who cares who you pass, or how much time you can make up. Do it to re-ignite that childhood abandon of running flat-out down a grassy hill and feel the pure adrenaline surge. I'd add "feel the wind in your hair" as well but I've forgotten what that feels like.

[Beki]

My downhill style tends to be: flail arms wildly while screaming like the girl I am

It's pitifull

[chilliman]

Beki, on Nov 29 2006, 10:09 AM, said:

My downhill style tends to be: flail arms wildly while screaming like the girl I am

It's pitifull

I remember being amazed at the pace Paul Ashton (Prom100, Skyrun RD) could descend steep downhill trail sections, often leaving me for dead. But having watched him closely over the past year and following in his footsteps I am finding I can keep up and recently actually overtook him on a long fast downhill at churchill park.

When I first observed Paul running flat out downhill I actually thought he was going to take off. His arms flapped so wildly to almost be comical - but seriously it works, it's all about balance. The tougher the surface and the steeper the trail just means flap those arms faster !

[laotze]

Yes, the arms flailing help balance, sometimes both flapping backwards, sometimes both forwards, sometimes one back and one forward (especially useful to go around corners).

[runna74]

I find it is all about turnover. The long stride comes naturally as the downhill gets steeper. It is just a matter of planning your line and flapping your arms around to achieve that line. I found the need to run downhills quickly as I seem to lose a heap of time on the climbs.

[cliffold]

I realise this thread is mainly about trail running but I was conscious of being the slowest runner on the long, gentle downhill return at Strider's 10k Lane Cove recently

Am paranoid about putting too much load on my feet when running on hard surfaces as had a heel stress fracture recently

Tried out the various bits of advice this morning - lean forwards, don't place your feet too far in front, flail the arms, scream like a girl etc

It made a huge difference tho' I'll give the screaming a miss next time

Now I'll need to run up the hills more slowly as I won't be able to slack off on the downhills <_<

So much to learn

[FakePlasticTrees]

cliffold, on Nov 30 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Now I'll need to run up the hills more slowly as I won't be able to slack off on the downhills <_<

Don't slow down up the hills, just finish earlier.

[laotze]

FakePlasticTrees, on Nov 30 2006, 10:39 AM, said:

Don't slow down up the hills, just finish earlier.

Now, running up hills is a different matter.

Forget flailing arms, forget long strides, forget screaming like a girl.

Try to maintain the same effort as for the flat, lean into the hill a bit, but don't bend over; keep the head up and the chest open so you can breath well. Steady compact arm swing, shorter stride, and on forefoot, or at worst, flat foot contact. Calves will feel it but will get used to it.

Learn to love the hills; a positive attitude really helps. I love to hear other runners complaining about a hill or hills, I know that psychologically I have an advantage.

I used to believe that if I passed someone going up a hill they never passed me again after that. As a general rule it is not bad, but not infallible.

It helps if as soon as you can you lengthen your stride, and get into that downhill hurtle, with arms flailing and all the rest.

[Phoenix]

Thanks so much everyone. Yet another set of replies to keep on file!

[stuey]

stuey, on Nov 27 2006, 09:36 PM, said:

I had a practice run on the anaconda run course at Lorne on Sun. Quads are still sore from the downhill. Apparently practicing on shorter downhills helps your quads for up to around 6 weeks, I'll have some accurate feedback on this after anaconda on dec 10. Uphill running seems to limited by cardio performance.

Some specific downhill training has an impressive effect. After yesterdays run my legs feel normal today, after the same run two weeks ago I had sore quads for 4-5 days. Don't think it made any difference to speed but it definitely had a big difference on recovery.

[easyhalf]

Wow I finally found it.
I thought it was a just go for broke, but in long runs I just dont feel like leaning forward and going for it.
It was great to read the coments and know people thought the same as me.
Awsome replys

[sunny1]

easyhalf, on May 29 2008, 08:58 AM, said:

Wow I finally found it.
I thought it was a just go for broke, but in long runs I just dont feel like leaning forward and going for it.
It was great to read the coments and know people thought the same as me.
Awsome replys

Yup - relax and fly! (and enjoy feeling like a kid again!!)