42 replies to this topic

[Colin]

This post (thread) deals specifically with the timing and coordination of standard marathons, although separately one could probably find the same with other events. For this purposes I have not included 6ft and similar events.

The date of the Brisbane marathon in particular this year(a week earlier- Canberra week later) got me thinking about coordination.

There are others, Sydney is now about two weeks later than when it originally took on that timeslot and GC and Perth are on the same day.

But given the number of marathons, and depth when one looks at top 100 times for example, and the number of marathon runners in total in Australia, the ‘city’ marathons in particular need to start working together on a national level.

Other countries have the luxury of interstate clashes because they have high numbers within state level, but here we have to accept that we must travel interstate to get the marathon that suits our schedule, and because we a relatively 'well off' mob, with relatively 'cheap' travel we can do so.

If one looks at the marathon calendar (for the whole of Australia) for example we have: (These are the ‘main’ city races only.)

Jan 7th – Hobart (fine probably the best climate for time of year.

Jan 8th to April 15th – nothing

April 15th- Canberra
April 22nd -Brisbane wtf, nothing for three months, then two in one week- many Queenslanders (and NSW) run Canberra , so it would have an effect.

July 1st -GC and Perth – two ‘City’ marathons on same day!

July 29th -‘Cities-(Sydney) , very close to ‘lesser’ Hunter (22nd) and Bush capital (28th !)

Aug 26th –Adelaide (clash with ‘smaller’ Shepparton ).

Sept 23rd –Sydney
Oct 7th – Melbourne , the two biggest cities within two weeks!

You could even include the next big City race in this region, Auckland on Oct 28th

Others in between are May 20th GOR ,  June 6th- Macleay , July 8th Pitchi-Ritchi , Aug 8th Townsville, Aug 22nd? Alice etc etc

But one can see that at the very least there are clusters of ‘city’ marathons which would have an effect on each other, whilst there are gaps at other times.

This is not meant as criticism – be thankful for small mercies I suppose- but just an observation for possibly getting some sort of body together. I have heard that something along that lines was being proposed by a ‘club’ in Canberra and I (and others) have expressed an interest.

There is at least a need to do something for standard marathons. Shorter distances, which can be raced more often are probably best looked after at a state level, and we already have a good few series’ around (in NSW the Striders 10km, SMC 5, 10 and 21 and other time trials and intermediate annual races- other states probably similar). Clashes are not an issue here.

[Steve 'The Footman']

How about Boston and London and Roterdam all so close you could not run them all well.

Clashes are a part of having options to run.  As the organiser of the Brisbane Marathon I am much more interested in not clashing with a south-east queensland event than anything else.  The thirty or so people from queensland who run Canberra will have no impact on the viability of our event but clashing with the BRW Corporate Triathlon like we did last year has a major impact.  We are also constrained by the other bodies who book our venues.  The buddist festival in Brisbane has always been an event we have had to pussy foot around.

The reality for major city marathons in Australia is that too few people run the marathons and they are largely subsidised by the other events.  Any decisions regarding interstate clashes should be seen in this context.

[Twopennys]

Steve, on Feb 14 2007, 09:30 PM, said:

As the organiser of the Brisbane Marathon I am much more interested in not clashing with a south-east queensland event than anything else.  The thirty or so people from queensland who run Canberra will have no impact on the viability of our event

That seems to me to be an interesting statement to make Steve.

To me it seems a very short sighted view that fails to understand the bigger picture view that what is good for all Australian marathons (and marathoners) will ultimately be good for the Brisbane marathon.

It is not only about the 30 people from Qld who run Canberra but the number of people who run Canberra who might travel to and participate in Brisbane. If you want to test this as a concept have a look at the correlation between the number of people who have been Canberra entrants and Gold Coast entrants.

What I interpret from what you have said is you don't seem to prioritise what is good for the customer as long as your event is viable - you don't have to be Tom Peters to know that in any business that attitude might make you viable but it is highly unlikely you will thrive.

At first I couldn't understand why there were the clashes that Colin has highlighted but from your comment I am beginning to understand.....

Steve what could possibly be lost by having a nationally coordinated approach as suggested by Colin?

All the best, 2P

Edited by Twopennys, 14 February 2007 - 10:29 PM.

[Colin]

Steve, on Feb 14 2007, 09:30 PM, said:

How about Boston and London and Roterdam all so close you could not run them all well.

Steve, the last time I looked at the atlas, they were in different countries.
But to be serious, even if Boston and New york were on the same weekend you would still get 30, 000 in each as they are oversubscribed already.

Steve, on Feb 14 2007, 09:30 PM, said:

Clashes are a part of having options to run.

My point exactly was that we already have few events, why make them clash- if thats your intention by giving "options".


And you then agree with the basis of my argument here;

Steve, on Feb 14 2007, 09:30 PM, said:

The reality for major city marathons in Australia is that too few people run the marathons and they are largely subsidised by the other events.  Any decisions regarding interstate clashes should be seen in this context.

My highlight- isn't that the very reason that non-clashing events would attract as much possible of the small pool of marathon runners. We do not have the luxury of a Boston or London. When that day arrives we may do as we wish.

The point I was making, and confirmed by your response is that this year Canberra has been moved back a week due to Easter, yet it appears neither Canberra nor Brisbane organisers bothered consulting each other.

Ditto Sydney - it used to be the second weekend i.e between around Sunday 9th to 15th September. This year it would have been the 9th at worst 16th, but because of APEC moved to 23rd. OK a bit more than the Buddhist Festival, but why no consultation between Melbourne and Sydney?

As TP concurs, what could possibly be lost by having a nationally coordinated approach for std marathons. Is this one of the reasons for greater success of trail 'ultras'?

Edited by Colin, 14 February 2007 - 11:47 PM.

[Rudolf]

I am bit lost here.

My understanding was, that there are 3 groups of people running marathons.

1-the group which will focus completely on 1, max 2 (6months appart approx) marathon, and do all the training and shorter racing as a preparation. Ideology is, You have only 1 good marathon in You per year. So either You are elite and going for big cash prize (will not use australian marathon anyway), or for qualifying time (likely to use overseas marathon anyway) or going for PB etc. Group 1 than picks 1 marathon from calendar, and does not care about other marathons on the same weekend or few weeks appart.

2-maratrhon novices, virgins, funrunners stepping up, those who are not serious runners but would like to get life goal etc.
This group also usually has only 1 marathon in them, either per life or per year, max 2 (6 months or so appart), and picks marathon they like, or the one which is closest, and again does not care about other marathons clashing

3-marathon colectors, who try to run as many marathons as they can, and are ready to run 1 in each weekend if available,
otherwise run ultra, fatass or very long training, on the nonmarathon weekend. This group is happy about marathons 1 week appart. Kelvin could correct me on this, if he sees it different.

I am not aware of the other marathoners not fitting into 1 of these 3 groups, but am loking forward to being corected.

[Twopennys]

Rudolf I think there is a 4th category and that is the semi-serious club or fun runner who similar to the elites will target one or two marathons per year for a PB shot but who without the ego issues of elites will travel to marathons to just be a part of the vibe, have a run and maybe pace a friend to their goal - this group are not as extreme as your group 3.

If you were wanting to maximise participation then it is the repeat customers you want to target and you want to convert as many first time marathoners as you can to become repeat customers.

There is also a smaller group who target a particular marathon but due to injury or whatever have to withdraw and with our feast or famine calendar may have to wait some time to get another crack.

Cheers, 2P

[Rudolf]

thanks for that 2P.

Anybody out there feeling a game to write down ideal yearly marathon calendar for Australia, use existing marathons,
and freely move them around the year to whatever date You think is best ?

[Jogger]

This is the closest we have:
http://www.coolrunni...thon_Guide_2006

[Colin]

Rudolf,

You only need to look at the total participants in say the USA to get an idea that people don't just run one marathon, and that's the reason they get 30,000+ in quite a few, and its oversubscribed.

The point again, that I was making in relation to us, is that with a very small pool of runners - who are almost getting to know each other on first name terms- who are also very willing to travel interstate to look for the race they want to run, then its defeatist not to collaborate on an interstate basis.

The AURA guys already do it. You don't see 6ft clashing with another big race (or any race) eg B-H, Glasshouse etc. How many do 6ft and GH (may be a bad example, but you get thepoint) - not many, but they consider these things.

Again, is that one of the reasons for the upsurge in trail ultras?

[Jogger]

Colin's point is a good one.
I know from Six Foot that there is a lot that influences choice of date - We have to miss easter for 6ft as that's a busy time at Jenolan Caves and easter swings around from year to year so the 2nd weekend is that latest we can have it. Any earlier and the fire risk is greater.

In canberra Sri Chinmoy and presume Dave Cundy have to liase with Canberra Tourism etc.

So although Colin's point is good for BIG events, clashing with interstate events only plays a small part in the stakeholders mind.

[SoLucky]

What does it matter if different State Marathons are held on the same weekend? If you spaced them two to four weeks apart the only people participating in both would most likely be those that are chasing a large number of marathon finishes (Rudolf’s “marathon collectors”), and those individuals form an extremely small proportion of participant numbers.
As for the time of year when a marathon is conducted, local factors including probable weather conditions on raceday will be instrumental in making a decision. For example, can you imagine the possible carnage if a mass participation marathon was held in Queensland in October, November, December, January or February. Similarly, there would be a significant probability of excessively high temps in Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra in the first quarter of the year.
Unless one has bureaucratic inclinations, and time on your hands, who would want to waste time on a controlling committee dictating when marathons should be arranged?

[Rudolf]

Colin, instead of arguing on theorethical level, if You have ideal marathon calendar in mind, just post it, that the real games begin. Personaly I do not realy care which marathon is when, but the discussion could be interesting.
So show us Your ideal marathon year.

[Colin]

SoLucky, on Feb 15 2007, 02:23 PM, said:

Unless one has bureaucratic inclinations, and time on your hands, who would want to waste time on a controlling committee dictating when marathons should be arranged?

SoLucky I only proposed this for a few Big races.

It seems to work fine in the triathlon set-up and the ultras. It is also the basis of the sucess in the sport in other countries.

Sometimes the only way to make decisions is to actually meet you know.

Rudolf, no I'm not interested in 'real games beginning' and my set-up may not be ideal. It was just clear to me from the calendar that people were not talking to each other when they considered dates, and in a country with relatively few runners that may not be the best thing.

cheers

[Rudolf]

Colin, on Feb 15 2007, 04:16 PM, said:

Rudolf, no I'm not interested in 'real games beginning' and my set-up may not be ideal. It was just clear to me from the calendar that people were not talking to each other when they considered dates, and in a country with relatively few runners that may not be the best thing.

cheers

Colin, it was half joke, and I understand the point.
However if something is not satisfactory, than better option needs to be presented.
Till then it can be argued, it is OK, and there is no better option.

[Kato]

I have to agree with Steve here - If he has to fit a marathon around local events then he should consider those people first.  There would be more people doing all four of the Brisbane Marathon, Bridge to Brisbane, Gold Coast Marathon and Queensland half than people interested in doing four interstate marathons in a year.  So he is actually catering to more runners by fitting in with a local calendar than he would be if he fitted in with a national calendar.

In fact, the local calendar is pretty full.  Smaller races would be the big losers if the established big runs were to change places every year, say because there is a river festival in Perth then its Marathon date moves and hence the Gold Coast (for argument's sake) also had to move.

When you argue with someone, first walk a mile in their shoes.  That way if it gets nasty, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.

[Colin]

Kato, on Feb 16 2007, 12:52 AM, said:

When you argue with someone, first walk a mile in their shoes.

Not an argument Kato, but observations on clashing events and lack of collaboration.

I was only referring to 'national' events. As RD of SMC for example I don't see the need to colloborate interstate, but we do collaborate with the Striders series and others on a local level.

But if Steve, and others, see Brisbane as a 'local' race, then thats fine- it will probably forever remain so. If thats the case I don't see a problem with the timeslot anymore- my apologies for thinking its a 'national' race.

Ditto Perth, if it doesn't want to be a 'national' race.

But you cannot argue that the timing of Sydney and Melbourne is ideal at two weeks apart. They are both marketed to attract not only interstate runners but the lucrative overseas (mainly Japanese) market. That was certainly the spiel given whne Sydney was re-launched.

OK APEC is a big event, but I would have had no issue if it moved forward closer to the smaller Adelaide- and the weather would be kinder too.

cheers

Edited by Colin, 16 February 2007 - 02:44 PM.

[Steve 'The Footman']

While we would like Brisbane to be a national and international class race we have to be realistic.  The impact of clashing with Canberra is minimal in comparison to clashing with even the smallest local event.  Luckily most local events try not to clash with us as we are a more major event.  But when you consider clashing dates there are many more important isssues that race directors must contend with other than another race being held thousands of miles away.  If you asked the question of whether we would have more people in our marathon if we were not close to Canberra then you would have to say that we would have fewer but the numbers would not be significant.

When it comes to Melbourne and Sydney then you would have to say that there are political reasons why the races are in close proximity.  They both want to be the preminent Australian Marathon and neither would be willing to give in to other.  Reminds me alot of the date clash between the Chicago and New York Marathons.  

I think if you are a real marathon addict having a marathon one or two weeks after another would not really be a barrier to running both.  I have run four marathons in three months and did not die or get injured.

By the way there is a national body "the AA participation commission" that is supposed to oversee clashes of major events and marathons across Australia.  AA sanctioning is supposed to depend on following the guidelines regarding clashing.  This has not always worked with AA going against its own guidelines at times.  The guidelines protect national championships and long races within geographical regions.

[Steve 'The Footman']

Colin I always wanted to go and run Chicago fast then back up and jog through New York.

The same thing could be done with Sydney and Melbourne if you were an international traveller and you could do it on the same trip.  This would not be so easy if the races were furthar apart.

[Colin]

Steve,

Don't take it too personally re Brisbane, that wasn't the biggest issue, especially now since I have retracted that its 'not a national race'. Its fine, its like us not scheduling SMC the day of Canberra, even Melbourne, but we are one week after both- or more importantly three weeks before both too (the advantage of having a monthly series).

btw I nearly made it to your race last year (had air tickets booked) but felt I hadn't recovered suffiently from Canberra-- but will do it some day.

But I disagree re analogy between Chicago/NY and Mel/Syd. As I have said before, in the USA they could even have it on the very same day and still oversubscribe. We don't have that luxury, and in fact we are at the opposite end of the scale where we almost recognise everyone who turns up.

From an international perspective very few would do what you suggest, most would want to concentrate on a good race in either. I personally wouldn't be going to SA in April with the intent of backing up the week after TOM to get bang for my buck.

With this year's Mel/Syd , APEC in Sydney caused the change- but moving it forward towards Adelaide would have been a better option for most runners, including the weather factor.

Edited by Colin, 17 February 2007 - 10:57 AM.

[Digger]

I've put this together for 2010, so my be we will get some more discussion.

[Eagle]

On a simplistic note it is great as far as Iam concerned Digger that you have gone to the effort to record the marathons. I use your schedule and website often when planning what marathons to run.

I am running the Hobart Marathon and used the information you have provided. I found it valuable in the information and links provided.

Now clashes that is something I will not get into at the moment.

[run2work]

Top job Digger, and very handy.

Just one edit I can see, is that the Deep Space Marathon in November is in the ACT, rather than SA.

Thanks again.

r2w

[cjr]

On a personal level I would love to run both Melbourne and Sydney but don't think I will ever be able to as I need at least a month or 2 between events. So if I want to run Sydney i would have to miss Melbourne, which I dont really want to do as it my "home" event.

I am sure there must be lots of others in that situation

[Didge]

Nice work Digger   Although I won't be running a marathon next year, the links still show me if there are other races at the same event - so now I can start to plan my year.

[beagle boy]

Great work Digger. Was trying to plan my next run, and had the Great Ocean Road in mind, but couldn't find it on your list. Strike that, found it under the ultra grouping. Should have known better!!!

Edited by beagle boy, 30 October 2009 - 04:27 PM.

[42junkie]

Thanks Digger, it is great to have such a calendar.

I have one question. Picking a marathon at random I found the Mt Mee classic trail marathon and I saw from the attached map (Map my Run) that it is only 39 and something kms. Does this mean the course is short or that the map is incorrect? does completing this count as doing a marathon or not?

[redbackrun]

42junkie, on Oct 30 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

Thanks Digger, it is great to have such a calendar.

I have one question. Picking a marathon at random I found the Mt Mee classic trail marathon and I saw from the attached map (Map my Run) that it is only 39 and something kms. Does this mean the course is short or that the map is incorrect? does completing this count as doing a marathon or not?

done this last april it's 42.2k but seemed hell of a lot longer
i noticed brissie mara could be on may 23rd. close to mt mee & gh 50. so many choices.

Edited by redbackrun, 30 October 2009 - 05:30 PM.

[DoggieDoctor]

Fantastic work Digger! You have put a lot of work into that one. Makes it much easier for the rest of us.
DD

[Digger]

run2work, on Oct 29 2009, 11:28 PM, said:

Just one edit I can see, is that the Deep Space Marathon in November is in the ACT, rather than SA.

Done,

Does anybody know whether it is actually going to happen this year?

[Johnso]

I for one am not happy tha sydney and melbourne races are so close together. I'd like to run one as a half and the other full but I don't think two weeks is enough time for me to get the best out of both of them. Pity that I will have to miss one

[trailblazer777]

Johnso; 19th september to 10th october isnt that 21 days or 3 weeks ? (between Sydney and Melbourne) ...one of the marathoners here in Perth PB ed in Perth, Perth City to Surf, and Melbourne, (so PB's in 3 marathons), but failed to PB in Rottnest 1 week after Melbourne..

I for one am focused on PB's, I usually target 2 perhaps 3 marathons a year for this, and sometimes I run a few more than 2 as training runs, or more for the fun, enjoying the experience (e.g. Perth city to surf marathon this year
I'd like to do Gold coast but because it always clashes with Perth, I doubt I will for a few years yet...
I see Melbourne, Perth, and Gold Coast as my best PB chances as they are all flat fast courses, maybe there are other options but I am not sure...I'd also like to do the Sydney Half one year maybe as a good lead into Melbourne...
Canberra and Brisbane, Alice springs, Hobart sound appealing, but I am not sure if they are worth the trip what are my chances of PB ing there...Sydney seems too hilly to PB on for me...

Our unofficial 6 inch 45km "race/training run" had 20 starters last year, its been going for 4 years now, looks like in its 5th year we will get 30 or more starters
6 inch is on 20th december 2009 starts at 0430 finishes in town of Dwellingup south of Perth... get in touch if you are interested in joining us...

so thats my thoughts where i am coming from...

thanks for the calender Digger...feel free to maybe add our 6 inch event to the calender although it is an informal event...

[Digger]

trailblazer777, on Oct 31 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

thanks for the calender Digger...feel free to maybe add our 6 inch event to the calender although it is an informal event...

Will do when I get a clear week-end to update the Super Marathons. Clearly I have been focusing on the 42.195 events

[Johnso]

trailblazer777, on Oct 31 2009, 04:16 PM, said:

Johnso; 19th september to 10th october isnt that 21 days or 3 weeks ? (between Sydney and Melbourne)

I think 2010 it has been moved so they are only two weeks apart.

[Digger]

A year or so ago, I spoke to Wayne Larden about the Sydney/Melbourne dates, and the issue is like all big city events, and that is that to get the permit you must have(or take) a date which fits in with other big events in the city, so the Sydney Marathon is set where it is.

Melbourne has the same problem, jammed between the Football and Racing carnival etc.

The real issue is making sure on Marathon Week-end that there are enough Police, ambulance etc.

Melbourne in normally the 2nd Sunday in October(except when its the 1st Sunday), but we don't have the 2010 date yet.

[Digger]

I've just done an update, and of significance, is confirmation that Perth has moved back into June, and is 2 weeks clear of the Gold Coast.

[Traveller42]

Thanks for the schedule.

It makes it much easier for one coming down on holiday and looking for a race.

[Digger]

Click here for my latest Marathon Calendar update

[mgi11a]

Digger thats fantastic, thanks for putting it up.

Cheers

mgilla

[AndyP]

Here's another one you can add, Digger.

Dec 4, 2010 - http://www.marlboroughmarathon.co.nz/

[Digger]

AndyP, on Jul 11 2010, 08:09 PM, said:

Here's another one you can add, Digger.

Dec 4, 2010 - http://www.marlboroughmarathon.co.nz/

Andy,

Thanks for that, all updated.

D

[Digger]

I just 'found' 3 more Kiwi Marathons.

That makes it 20 Kiwi Marathons and 33 or 34 Australian Marathons, depending on whether or not the Marysville Marathon goes ahead this year.

Click here

[Perseus]

Bribie Beach Bash, Qld

Caboolture Dusk to Dawn, Qld

Jabulani Challenge, NSW

Mt Kosciusko Top of Australia Marathon, NSW

Greg & Dianne Woodhouse Marathon, Tas

Christmas Island Marathon, WA

Ed: Bogong to Hotham, Vic

Edited by perseus, 03 September 2010 - 03:51 PM.

[Beki]

Digger, that's awesome - I was just talking to Blkbox the other day about wanting to be able to find a schedule and hey presto!

Thanks