89 replies to this topic

[stumblingstu]

i've been pretty ill for the past week and havent been able to go for a run. i'm back at work now, fine except for a bit of a cough, and i know from experience this cough will hang around for a week or two. i blame the air con at work...

anyway, i worry if i go for a run i'm just going to make myself sick again... what are people's experiences on running after a cold/flu?  how long do you wait before getting back out there again? especially considering it's getting a fair bit cooler too...


stu

[Running Angel]

stumblingstu, on May 30 2007, 01:09 PM, said:

i've been pretty ill for the past week and havent been able to go for a run. i'm back at work now, fine except for a bit of a cough, and i know from experience this cough will hang around for a week or two. i blame the air con at work...

anyway, i worry if i go for a run i'm just going to make myself sick again... what are people's experiences on running after a cold/flu?  how long do you wait before getting back out there again? especially considering it's getting a fair bit cooler too...
stu

Unless I am feeling really ill I will still run with a cold/cough. The breathing is usually a bit harder and the pace a bit slower, but as long as you are feeling ok in yourself I say get back out there asap! But that's just me, I can't stand not running!

[Dom]

According to this reference

the following:  

"So, next time you have a cold and wonder whether you should head out for your run, just remember the "neck check" developed by AR&FA Editorial Board Member Randy Eichner, M.D. If your cold symptoms are from the neck up, go for it. If your symptoms extend below the neck and include chest discomfort or deep cough, general aches and pains, and fever, hit the bed instead of the road. Rest, don't run."  

is a distilled version of:  

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 1998, Vol. 30, No. 11, pp. 1578-1583

NB: I haven't read the paper or checked how rigorous the science was behind this

[stumblingstu]

Dom, on May 30 2007, 01:24 PM, said:

...If your symptoms extend below the neck and include chest discomfort or deep cough...

deep cough pretty much sums it up.  guess i'll take it easy for a while...

thanks guys

stu

[sunny1]

Wait till the cough goes, stumblingstu! Or ask your self what is the long term plan?

Put myself out of running for about 2 months by completing a 10km 'race' when not fully recovered from a deep cough, that included chest discomfort. Ended up damaging a muscle in my neck - coughing and running at the same time - got to the point where I could not get out of bed, needing extensive physio and physio banned me from 'hanging out clothes, sweeping, mopping, vaccumming any type of house work for 2 weeks' (extrememly debilitating!).

There are some conditions that need nursing and should not be pushed through.   Far better to recover and run again in a few weeks than to sustain a nasty injury.  

[beatlloydy]

If your current motivation is just for fitness I would advise rest. However, if you have a goal in the next 2 months perhaps some light running. The only problem is when you really push it the cold/flu will probably take longer to go away. If have been running for 3 weeks with a chest cold...If I rested it may have gone in 2 weeks. However, my training program cant wait. As I didnt have any temperature I thought it should be o.k but am paying for it with a delay to recovery. It doesnt really affect my running too much, just a pain in the butt.

Or should I say "a proverbial pain in the butt" before the larikens in these forums liken my cold to piles or something equally as gross.

[fitnessfreak]

o hello every1 just glanced over the topics and saw this 1 and it interested me .
i have had the flu 2 times in 3weeks so yeah the 1st 1 was same symtoms as now and i trained every day through it
i just have a dry throught and constantly need water but this time isnt as bad because i take soothers like every time it hurts and i have a blocked nose and headache but still with a cold i ran a 1500m in 5.12 and 800m in 2.29 and 400m in 1.08 this is around good times for me
i dont knoe not every1 feels up to it but i guees the adrenalyn keeps me going.

[felisaffie]

I always tell myself I'm too sick and tired I just can't run today but I always end up needing too regardless and I haven't found that it made too much difference to rate of recovery it was just a bit more of a struggle to do. I always find it helps actually in winter because the cool air soothes my head and throat and the cold numbs the illness a bit somehow.

Edited by felisaffie, 03 June 2007 - 01:00 PM.

[PommeRocket]

Hi here is an exert from a book I read

You should take your pulse every morning
before you get out of bed. In a short time you will arrive at a base level for your resting pulse. If
your pulse has increased by as little as 10 percent above the base level, do not train on that day,
and until your pulse has returned to the base level for two consecutive days. A high pulse is a signal from your body that something is wrong (classically associated with a raised temperature
and other symptoms, as in flu). Listen to your body.

RUNNING FAST AND INJURY FREE by GORDON PIRIE (Edited by JOHN S GILBODY)

http://www.gordonpirie.com

Free book avaliabel to download, very interesting a little contraversial

PommeRocket

[Tan Man]

I run every day and train 4 days per week,

I have missed 6 days this week with a bad cold and and infected sinus...on Penicillen

How much fitness will I lose if I don't run / train for a week ?

Cheers

Tan Man

[Cowboy]

When I usually have a cold, the worst only lasts for one day, I usually give myself another 2 days then get back into it and I am generally fine

[PlodBod]

There is a massive difference between "a cold" and "flu".  If you have influenza, you are practically unable to get out of bed as you feel so bad.  Sweating, shivering, fuzzy head, muscular aches, high temperature etc. etc.  I think it would be highly unlikely that anyone suffering from the flu proper would even be able to contemplate going for a run.

Disclaimer - I am not a doctor.  I have had flu once and know the difference between it and the common cold.

Edited by PlodBod, 24 July 2007 - 03:09 PM.

[Tenzing]

I've had 4 days off with what must be the flu. Can't stand it any longer - I need to run! Got B2B coming up & I'm feeling underdone. So here goes the experiment: despite symptoms 'from the neck up' I'll hit the road soonish & take it easy & get back to you tomorrow with an update...

Go, Tenzing! Go.

[Tan Man]

Thanks for the responses,

I ran for an hour last night , did a few stride throughs afterwards and felt ok , although a little tired in the legs.

I then ran for 40 minutes at lunchtime today and felt truly shocking , weak , crook , sore .

I had planned to go for an hour again tonight , but that isn't looking likely at this stage.

Tan Man

[Tenzing]

Managed an easy 5k @ 6min pace late yesterday. Today I'm feeling better but missed out on a run (ran out of daylight...)

[blair]

Tenzing, on Jul 25 2007, 06:42 PM, said:

(ran out of daylight...)

That's what streetlights are for.  

[PurplePete]

I'm just getting over my 2nd flu in the past month, and training for the Sydney marathon.

Have missed a few runs, so yesterday felt I just had to go for a run, although it was the last thing I felt like doing.

Three things I did diiferently yesterday

1) didn't stress about my time. I did a 15km run in 96mins (that I normally do in about 78mins), but considered it a bonus just to be doing it.
2) I wore an extra layer to keep warm, because running at a slower pace I didn't warm up so much.
3) stopped at every drink fountain for a big drink and a short rest.

I got through the run ok and don't seem to be any worse today. In fact, the contents of of my congested lungs have now been distributed all around the bay run

Apologies to anyone who was running anywhere near my coughing and spluttering flem head.

Peter

[maureent53]

PurplePete, on Jul 31 2007, 10:07 AM, said:

I'm just getting over my 2nd flu in the past month, and training for the Sydney marathon.

Have missed a few runs, so yesterday felt I just had to go for a run, although it was the last thing I felt like doing.

Three things I did diiferently yesterday

1) didn't stress about my time. I did a 15km run in 96mins (that I normally do in about 78mins), but considered it a bonus just to be doing it.
2) I wore an extra layer to keep warm, because running at a slower pace I didn't warm up so much.
3) stopped at every drink fountain for a big drink and a short rest.

I got through the run ok and don't seem to be any worse today. In fact, the contents of of my congested lungs have now been distributed all around the bay run

Apologies to anyone who was running anywhere near my coughing and spluttering flem head.

Peter

So that's who it was leaving all those nasty spitty things along the Bay run!   :-)

I was interested in this topic because I am having trouble with a cold that keeps coming back each time i run.  I ran round the Bay on Tuesday and immediately afterwards (say 10mins after i finished) starting sneezing uncontrollably, it developed into a full on cold thing (managed by codral ok) but the problem is that this is the third time it's happened. I get over it in a few days and then feel fine to go for another run and then wham it happens all over again. Not a chest thing, very much in the nose and head.  And it happens as soon as i finish the run. V. annoying.

[cocobear]

I have run right through colds. This year I got the flu, was unable to get out of bed for almost a week and was really unwell for the next two, now I am about 5 weeks over it and my running is still not anywhere near what it was before the flu. Listen to you body, it will tell you when, if, and how long to run for. I tried to jump straight back in as soon as possible and suffered for it. coco.

[Morley]

I can't remember the last time I had a cold but if it's on your chest I don't think there is any point running. Get well and you'll enjoy the run more.

[Hurley]

I firstly got a soar throat so went to the doctor and got a 5day course (1p/d) of anitbiotics, during this cough came on with flem. after this course went back running and the next day it came back so i had to go on another course. it has been about 3weeks now from my initial visit to the doc; i am taking vitamins and a herbal mixture (naturopath) now to build my imune system back up but i cant get rid of the cough (flem). I want to go back running, i feel i could do it but i dont want the cycle to start again not sure if i should risk it and give it a go (maybe light 15min jog in hot part of the day)??

[AmyJay]

Morley, on Aug 10 2007, 07:52 PM, said:

I can't remember the last time I had a cold

Jeez Morley what's your secret!!
Lately I feel like I've only barely recovered from one cold when the next one sets in. Everyone in the office has been sick, and every time I'm on the train some idiot standing next to me starts hacking all over me.
So unless you live in a bubble, how do you keep your immune system strong enough to cope?

[tank girl]

This is not medical advice!!! I know nothing!!!

I am asthmatic and I find that I always have trouble getting rid of my cough at the end of a bad cold.  Fortunately, I don't suffer exercise-induced asthma (EIA) as long as I remain fairly fit.  When you start to exercise you release bronchodilators that make it easier to breathe.  If I stop exercising without cooling down properly, when my asthma has been playing up, I'm likely to bring on an attack, but if I walk/jog at the end of my run I'm fine.

I find that light exercise helps with clearing up this cough, and I presume it's for that very reason - bronchodilators.  Well, a combination of that, and rhythmic breathing patterns that seem natural when running but not when bumming around.  I've also found that, for me, light exercise can help clear up the last of sinus problems.  But it has to be really light exercise. For me that means a slow, 5km jog, walking up hills so the HR doesn't get too high.  When fit and healthy, I might train 60km per week in lots of 8-20 km.  Your definition of light exercise might mean a 2km brisk walk, or it might be a 10km run at my race pace!

The key I think is recovery.  If you come back from your light jog feeling energised and more clear headed, then it's a good thing - take a day off and then do it again the next day. If you feel tired and struggle to recover from it, then give it a bit longer before you try again.

I know a lot of people run right through colds.  I had a triathlon coach that trained right through a cold every time.  Probably as a result of that, he had a cold pretty much all the time.  I told him to forget it, and I took three days off training when I got a cold, and I got over it in 5 days.  Listen to your body.  If it screams for rest, rest. If it screams to move, then run!

Research is slowly but surely proving only one worthwhile thing... All things in moderation.

[getfitfast]

This is a good thread!

Last week (4th & 5th Jan) I was really chuffed - I ran my first 10K, followed up by an 8.6K..I thought wow. Woke up Sunday with a sore throat and my artharitic knee playing up.

Haven't ran or done any exercise since - missed by two bootcamp classes last week too...

The only remainind symptom is bloked ears and a bit of tiredness - I've been sleeping 8-10 hours a night and another couple of hours during the day. Just back into work today after taking Thurs & Friday off...

Should I start running again? Most of the responses in the thread seem to indicate yes...

Also anyone with mild arthiritis who manages to continue running. In fact this is my main concern...

Appreciate thoughts...

[slowmo]

Good topic and some interesting replies...

Over the last few years I've been prone to both heavy colds and bouts of flu (fever, chills, aches and pains, usually end up horizontal for a week).

Since I started running regularly six months ago I've had no more than the occasional day with a snuffle or a low grade crummy feeling.  For me this is unheard of.  It's as if I've finally find the 'on' switch for my immune system.  I've even resisted falling prey to the regular head colds and other lurgis that the kids bring home from school.

The above/below neck rule of thumb mentioned previously makes sense to me.  

Yesterday I had planned to do my weekend long run early, before the heat, but I woke up with a bad sore throat and gloop-headedness.  By the end of the day I was feeling a bit better so I did an easy hour long jog in the late afternoon sun showers.  I felt sluggish during the run (even by my standards) but by the time I got home my symptoms were gone and today I feel fine.

It would be fascinating to know more about the various ways in which running influences immune response and healing.  Both physical and emotional factors must surely be involved.

slowmo

Edited by slowmo, 14 January 2008 - 02:06 PM.

[Bellthorpe]

Hurley, on Aug 10 2007, 11:03 PM, said:

i am taking vitamins and a herbal mixture (naturopath) now to build my imune system back up <snip>

That's what food is for ...

[slowmo]

Bellthorpe, on Jan 14 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

That's what food is for ...

right on - enjoy fresh fruit and vegies, treat yourself to some healthy cooking and new recipes, grow a few things...

running and the slow food philosophy go well together - both nourish body and soul

[YumHallucinogens]

I'm wondering what you make of this. I caught a cold 7 days ago. The cold was very mild, just a bit of sneezing and a runny nose. Not bad enough to stop working (low energy job). I "recovered" quickly, in that the acute symptoms disappeared after a couple of days.  

The problem is that since the cold, my times have been way off and getting worse. I took a couple of days off until the nose stopped running, then ran poorly for a couple of days, then took another day off, then ran even worse! My times are off by ~10%. Breathing feels OK - no congestion. Legs are a bit heavy. The only other symptoms are the never-ending green snot and a resting heart rate that's up from the 50s to the 60s, which I guess is at least partly responsible for the slower times. I'm curious as to why my resting HR is still so high when I feel well otherwise. Is this normal? Does this mean I'm still sick? Or is this a sign of rapid deconditioning   ?

Thanks for any ideas.

[SpartaJen]

I would have thought that if your body is still producing...

YumHallucinogens, on Jun 4 2008, 03:55 AM, said:

never-ending green snot

you're probably still sick & not back to 100% yet, hence the higher resting HR rate.

[Daedal]

Not having had the flu for many years, I cannot comment on that but when I get a cold I usually wait for the sore throat to go (which is when it affects me the most and normally lasts a couple of days) before I start running again - which will be at a decreased distance and speed but of at least 30 - 40 minutes duration.  I'll keep that up until I feel better and increase speed and distance.

[YumHallucinogens]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

[Android]

A very interesting topic with some useful advice.

I'm just getting over a bad dose of acute bronchitis which had me off my feet for the last 2 weeks. My Doctors advice was simply to avoid any strenuous exercise until I'm fully recovered. His claim was that your recovery time while you still have a virus can be days instead of hours so you have a better chance of getting back to full strengh faster if you wait a little longer.

Tough advice for a habitual runner !

Edited by Android, 08 August 2008 - 09:05 AM.

[reet]

i too have had a cold that has lingered around for weeks. I have been running through it, thinking its 'just a cold' ...but i think  running is hindering my full recovery. So it looks like there is no bay run for me this weekend . Does anyone find that they are MORE motivated to run when they know they really shouldn't??  I can't wait for this thing to finally end so i can head out!!

[Tim 2]

I don't stop.

Thats probably not what i'd advise my patients to do though.

Tim

[julz83]

i can totally empathise. i have just recovered from the worst dose of flu in my life. i was literally in bed for a week. i knew i was really sick because i didnt even contemplate going for a run.
but yes those last few days when i was just on the fence between dodgy and good i was so eager to get my runners on but im thankful i didnt now because i made a full recovery.
so important to listen to your body. i was out of action wednesday-wednesday and last night (thursday) i was able to hit the pavement for a good 9km and felt fine.

[alisonjc]

I followed the above the neck rule & ended up ignoring a severe sinus infection which hammered my immune system so badly I ended up with bronchitis (= 3 weeks off and a slow return) not long afterward. My dr just said "doesn't matter where it is, if you're sick, you're sick". You'd think at my age I'd have worked that out for myself

[glenda]

If you had the flu, as distinct from a cold , I would find it incredible that you would be able to run. Influenza makes you feel like you've been hit by a truck, every part of you aches, you have a fever etc. A cold is something quite different. I have run with one for 2 weeks now, albeit not at my best probably, and maybe why it's not getting any better...

[marlowe]

Hi guys.

I too am getting over the horrible viral thing everyone has been getting. This is week 4 of very slow recovery for me, believe it or not, and about a week ago no fewer than 6 of my colleagues were off sick on the same day (unless they all had something better to do, and left the rest of us out of it!).

When I am inside, at a constant, warmish temp, I am (mostly) fine, but the second I set foot outside in the cold air, the dry, hacking, asthmatic cough returns, leaving me in a quivering mess. I exaggerate not when I say I had an asthma attack two blocks into my walk home from the station the other week. And, unfortunately, when I am not working in a soon to be demolished building with no heating, I am outside, at night, wandering around in the cold (working). I think my record is 8 layers of thermal underwear and down jackets.

It's getting really irritating, as the only time I have for running is pre-dawn or after dark. I'm not (much of) a wuss, it's just hard running when you can't breathe, and the cold air just makes it worse!

Maybe walking/running in the relatively warm daylight hours on my upcoming week off will help. I feel like running will make me feel better, less sluggish and lethargic, if it doesn't kill me.

Anyone else take this long to get over a cold or am I just a total sissy?

[Fitnhealthy]

PommeRocket, on Jun 5 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

Hi here is an exert from a book I read

You should take your pulse every morning
before you get out of bed. In a short time you will arrive at a base level for your resting pulse. If
your pulse has increased by as little as 10 percent above the base level, do not train on that day,
and until your pulse has returned to the base level for two consecutive days. A high pulse is a signal from your body that something is wrong (classically associated with a raised temperature
and other symptoms, as in flu). Listen to your body.

RUNNING FAST AND INJURY FREE by GORDON PIRIE (Edited by JOHN S GILBODY)

http://www.gordonpirie.com

Free book avaliabel to download, very interesting a little contraversial

PommeRocket

My coach has told me to do the same thing as it only takes 6 secs each morning, but just wish I could remember each day. I do know since running this year my hr has dropped from 70 - 60, which I am happy with.

I also know I have taken hr when sick and it was in the 80's when first running...Lots of great advice on here. I know I am learning to listen to my body and a couple sessions off is better then months off. Our bodies need recovery time! Or maybe I'm just a big sook

[Bellthorpe]

PommeRocket, on Jun 5 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

Hi here is an exert from a book I read
  
  You should take your pulse every morning
  before you get out of bed. In a short time you will arrive at a base level for your resting pulse. If
  your pulse has increased by as little as 10 percent above the base level, do not train on that day,
  and until your pulse has returned to the base level for two consecutive days. A high pulse is a signal from your body that something is wrong (classically associated with a raised temperature
  and other symptoms, as in flu). Listen to your body.

  
  On the other hand, if you're a little dehydrated in the morning (salty dinner for example), your pulse could easily be up by more than 10%.

[Android]

On a positive note, I took my Doctors advice and didn't run at all while I had a bad dose of actue bronchitis which knocked me completely off my feet for about 2 weeks.

I started training again last Monday and even through I took it pretty easy I felt like I hadn't lost too much strength and stamina. With only 5 weeks left before the Blackmores marathon I'm feeling much more confident of being back on track.

[Bedders]

I know how you all feel, I stopped all running two weeks before the Gold Coast marathon as I had developed Plantar Fasciitis in my left foot. I had a far better run on the GC than I had expected so it proves how well your body can retain its fitness level. I planned to give myself a week off from the GC run but during the latter week I started to feel pretty ropey with a head cold so I put everything on hold whilst I recovered. After about 10 days I felt pretty good so I started training again. Two days later I was feely worse than before with a high temperature, snotty nose, sinus pain and a hacking cough. The horrible bug lasted a further two weeks so I've been off running for around 6 weeks in total now.

Now I've seen many previous posts telling people that if the cold symptoms are above your neck then you are OK to train. Mmmm I don't think I'll pay the latter too much attention next time. I really think if I'd taken a few more days off I would have been back running two weeks earlier.

Like many on this topic I'm planning on running in the Sydney marathon but the nasty little cold bug has put to waste my target time of 3hrs 30 min... Thus I recommend rest and resisting your wish to start running too early. On the bright side the enforced rest has really helped my PF, thus there is a 2nd reason to rest, let those niggling injuries have some extra recovery time.

Great advice about taking your pulse, I simply hadn't thought about that before but it makes such good sense, great tip!

cheers all and see you all on Sept 21st under the bridge!

[JackW]

Flu's are a bummer.  Some good info in all of this. Thanks for the link to that book PommeRocket, looks interesting.

I find I'm OK running with a cold, but a flu knocks me around to the extent that I don't want to run.

I've had 1.5 weeks of work with a flu and hardly set foot out the door, let alone run. Done a couple of slow 5k's last 2 days and pulled up OK.

How long should I wait to return to distance and intensity of run that I was doing previously? Having had an injury plagued year I'm wary of stepping up too soon, but also don't want my drop back too far.

Jack

[Bedders]

Jack I reckon that if you're not running a temperature and you're not coughing and spluttering then you can start extending your training to pick up where you previously were. I think the key is to just not suddenly lift the intensity / distance so that you put put your body in a weak state.

Bedders

[sunny1]

Nothing like a good run to get rid of the end-of-cold flem!

[Nevertooold]

I am getting so much out of these forums, thanks!!  

I would suggest rest.  I have just come down with quite a bad cold, after 3 males in my house getting the Man Flu.  My last run was Friday, 10Km, and my training had been going really well.  But after having getting a cold 2 weeks prior to Bridge To Brisbane last year, and training through it, I ended up vomiting and nearly passing out about 1km from the finish, I thought I was going to have a heart attack!!

So I think the advice about from the neck down is spot on. This time, I am resting for a few days... better to get well and perform to your best than prolong the cold and perform miserably, I was very disappointed with myself last year.

I eat plenty of fruit and veggies, and Vitamin C and Zinc and Echinacea helps with recovery too.
Good Luck

[QuickCat]

I'm also getting over a cold- have had an annoying phlegmy cough for the last 6 days and have only run twice in the last 2 weeks. I'm really hoping I don't have bronchitis! Android is 2 weeks a typical recovery time for acute bronchitis?

Any opinions on whether I should resume light running? I know my symptoms are below the neck but I'm starting to get worried as i've got my first marathon (auckland marathon) in 7 weeks time.

[brownsinglet]

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic  

I woke up a couple of days ago with a dripping nose and now it has dropped to my chest   I feel short of breath even when I'm not doing anything like sitting here typing this.  What is it about running though that makes it so hard for us to stop and have a decent rest??  Maybe its chasing that PB, trying to get fit, trying to lose weight or training for your first marathon and many other reasons that make this sport so addictive.  Anyway I'm off for a very slow 5 k  

Steve

[brownsinglet]

Quote

Anyway I'm off for a very slow 5 k

I shouldn't have done that, I got home and the fever started almost straight away when I was cooling down  

Edited by seriousblack, 13 February 2009 - 02:43 PM.

[bruncle]

There's a lot of superstition about this topic. Everyone has advice, but it's basically all based on a study of one. It pleased me no end to discover that there actually has been some research done into whether you should continue training with a cold. Some masochistic (or financially motivated?) volunteers were infected with a strain of Rhinovirus (which causes the common cold) and after they'd all succumbed to the symptoms, the ruthless scientists put them on a treadmill to find out what would happen.

There were actually two separate studies: one to determine whether performance is affected by having a cold; and one to determine whether training through a cold would affect recovery time.

Contrary to what people have stated on this thread, the results actually showed that performance level (as defined by a treadmill based fitness test) is not at all affected by cold symptoms. The participants did say that their perceived level of exertion was much higher, but they were still able to run just as fast as they could before as long as they ignored the headaches, snotty noses, phlegmy throats, etc. that they were all suffering from.

The other half of the study also came out with interesting results. The participants were split into two groups: a control group and an exercising group (not quite a double blind study, but the best they could do under the circumstances). The exercising group continued running after they had been infected by the cold, while the control group were free to lie in bed and moan all day. In the end, there was no significant difference in recovery time between the two groups.

Conclusion: HTFU and keep training.

(Can't find the actual citation but there's another synopsis of the study here http://www.consorthe...px?newsID=2160)

This only applies to colds though. The flu or anything more serious requires a bit of time off.

Something to be aware of for runners is the 'window of opportunity' for getting sick. After a hard/long run, your immune system is temporarily suppressed due to the stress you're placing on your body. So it's probably a good idea to stay away from sick people and crowds for a few hours after you're done running to reduce the risk of picking up something. Eating carbs straight afterwards is meant to help reduce this problem, but it's still there.