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How Long To Run Sustainable 3 Minute Ks?


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#1 victoralias

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Posted 13 June 2007 - 10:15 PM

I've hestitated to put this question out there but what the hey.

Despite my age -43 in July- I'm new to running. I've been using Lydiard style training principles since beginning to train in January this year and my progress has been quite good. In my first ever race (Puffing Billy 2006) I averaged 4 minute per k pace and this year, after two months of training, I had improved by 30 seconds per kilometer in the same race.

I've run a number of races this year and, each time, I am 30 secs per k off the pace at which I want to run. Thats the figure - 30 secs. I can run around 3.20 pace for shorter distances 4-8K instead of the desired 2.50. I can run around 3.30 for longer ones 10-20k instead of the desired 3. I can certainly run at these faster speeds so theres no problem there, I just can't keep it up for long enough.

My question is directed toward runners who have 'been there and done that'. How long can I expect it to take to knock yet another 30 secs per k of my running speed? In the words of Kramer, I may be old but I'm spry and, because I'm old, I'm in a hurry. Am I looking at months? Years? I don't have decades. (Don't tell me its impossible!) I am putting in the training miles and will continue to do so religiously whatever the outcome. Everyone's different I know but I'd be very interested to know How long it took an actual -not a theoretical- runner to be running sustainable 3 minute k pace (at least for 10k). Thats my present goal as a runner. I don't want to break any records, I don't want to win any awards... I just want to be a competitive which to my mind means improving another 30 secs per k across the distance running board. If I do it I'll content as a runner (I'll be more content anyway). In the mean time I'm frustrated by what I perceive to be my slowness.

Edited by victoralias, 17 June 2007 - 08:35 PM.


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#2 DrJH

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 06:31 AM

There are only a handful of 43 year olds that can sustain 3 min km pace. Mona didn't even manage it this year at Sandown! The chances of you doing it much beyond about 3k are miniscule. Good luck!

#3 Roffy

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:44 AM

I agree with Dr JH here. If you are going to be running 10k in 30 minutes or under mate you could be the next Australian 10k road champion based on recent times. Good luck with it.

#4 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:48 AM

Impossible? We shall see. Asking to be able to improve by 30 seconds per k when you've only started running doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Surely most of the experienced runners here were able to improve by 30 seconds per k within the first year or two of training? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe I should ask how long it might take to improve 30 seconds per k given that one is a beginner with a small aerobic base.

Edited by victoralias, 14 June 2007 - 09:08 AM.


#5 Rudolf

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:04 AM

the second question is not relevant. the begginer can easily improve 30 secs per km in few months, if it is from 9 min to 8:30 and perhaps from 6 min to 5:30 as well.

If You put it in % term of speed increase, that would be a bit better but still not relevant.

I think You have to stay with originalk question from 3:30 to 3:00.

since I am not in the category who have done it, I am not answering.

The other issue is intereting to me - the age and the runners ageing and the way of turning it around.

But this is well beyond this forum.

#6 nando

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:05 AM

victoralias,

I agree what you are looking at is a big ask.  As everyone is different, I think all you can do is go out and give it your best and see how long it takes.  If someone tells you now that it will take a few months you are only going to get disappointed if you have not reached your goal in that timeframe.  Keep puuting in the training and you will certainly improve, as for how much and how quickly is anyone's guess.

But to give you something to compare, I started running in 2000, and could run 10km in 45min.  I first cracked the sub 40 in 2003, so it took me 3 years.  But my training changed significantly over that 3 years and I could have done it quicker if I had followed a more structured training program earlier.

Good luck,

Nando

#7 heartnsoul

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:44 AM

victoralias,

to be running 3.30 kms where you are at both age and training wise is a huge achievement.
just wondering how many kms a week you are running and how varied the pace is that you train at?
in answer to your question about 3 min kms i somewhat agree with others on this thread that it is unlikely that you will be able to reach 30 min 10km but at the same time is highly possible as from the sound of it whatever you do for training is working. my coach rob spilling is currently doing 33 min 10kms at the age of 45.

#8 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:53 AM

View PostRudolf, on Jun 14 2007, 10:04 AM, said:

the second question is not relevant. the begginer can easily improve 30 secs per km in few months, if it is from 9 min to 8:30 and perhaps from 6 min to 5:30 as well.

If You put it in % term of speed increase, that would be a bit better but still not relevant.

I think You have to stay with originalk question from 3:30 to 3:00.

since I am not in the category who have done it, I am not answering.

The other issue is intereting to me - the age and the runners ageing and the way of turning it around.

But this is well beyond this forum.

Rudolf, isn't it all about how long it takes to reach one's maximum potential? Whats the difference between improving from 9 to 8, from 6 to 5, and from 4 min to 3 min ks if the respective potentials are 8, 5 and 3? There is no difference. There is a meaningful question here then. Phrase it this way: how long before one starts to hone in on one's maximum potential as a runner (when one is training fully and correctly)? how long before the big improvements cease and the tweaks begin?

PS. I have been on a carefully considered low calorie diet for 20 years and so -given the recent research on low calorie eating with optimal nutrition- my chronological age may well be greater than the age of my internal age.

#9 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 11:09 AM

View Postheartnsoul, on Jun 14 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

victoralias,

to be running 3.30 kms where you are at both age and training wise is a huge achievement.
just wondering how many kms a week you are running and how varied the pace is that you train at?
in answer to your question about 3 min kms i somewhat agree with others on this thread that it is unlikely that you will be able to reach 30 min 10km but at the same time is highly possible as from the sound of it whatever you do for training is working. my coach rob spilling is currently doing 33 min 10kms at the age of 45.

For my first month of training I more or less followed Mottram's training schedule. 100 miles per week, long runs Wed and Sun and two runs (one for an hour or so and a half hour recovery) other days. Now I run 1 hour 30 minimum per day. In the one run at least twice a week and divided into 2 sessions on other days, one a recovery run. In the main sessions I start with a heart rate around 140 bpm and build up to half an hour at 150-160 bpm and then drop it back for half an hour or so. I'm hitting 3.30 pace at around 160 bpm. In the recovery sessions I run with my brother and his partner and we go so SLOW I feel like I'm falling asleep but we usually run for more than an hour. So I work pretty hard for a beginner. I'm a great believer in the Lydiard approach as you can no doubt tell.

Edited by victoralias, 14 June 2007 - 11:12 AM.


#10 Mars

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 11:31 AM

Victor,

My coach, Barry Magee, one of Lydiard's first pupils, ran a 2:28 marathon age 49.

Just keep on with the Lydiard program, and you will get there. With each preparation you will get faster if you stick to his program.

Barry can help you do it via email correspondence if you like.

barry@upandrunning.co.nz

#11 Sparkie

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 11:57 AM

Quote

Impossible? We shall see. Asking to be able to improve by 30 seconds per k when you've only started running doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Surely most of the experienced runners here were able to improve by 30 seconds per k within the first year or two of training? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe I should ask how long it might take to improve 30 seconds per k given that one is a beginner with a small aerobic base.

The first 30 seconds is the easy bit, particularly if you have a natural aptitude for running, as you obviously do.  I went from 37:25 to 32:59 for 10km in my first 6 months of running (albeit at the age of 22).  To say that I could have taken another 4.5 minutes off (28:30 - national standard) is optimistic to say the least.

When you first start running, it is natural to rapidly approach your potential.  To improve that potential requires youth, time and genetics, not an arithmetic progression.  Good luck, but don't beat yourself up chasing something that may not be possible.

#12 Little K

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 12:01 PM

Highly unlikely victoralias, but good luck!

#13 lactatehead

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 12:03 PM

Victoralias,

I am 40 yrs old and also striving to get down to around 3.10 pace over 10k. I have only ever raced between 3.50 pace and 3.00 pace and there is a world of difference between the two. If you can comfortably run at 3.20 pace now then I would say that you need to make 3.15 your next target, then 3.10 etc. and go for bite size improvements.
There are plenty of vets who have run sub 30 min for 10k so don`t be discouraged. A lot of it will come down to how much natural ability you have. Good luck.

#14 Mars

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 12:25 PM

Dude don't listen to the doubters. You can do it.

#15 sunny1

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 12:30 PM

Victorialias, it has taken me 3 years to reach the 50min 10km and 18 min 4km, which I am quite proud of. Your improvements are awesome and humbling.

Well done.

Edited by sunny1, 14 June 2007 - 12:30 PM.


#16 Jimboy

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 02:20 PM

As a young fella(18-20 age group) I was advised that five years of solid training/racing would get me to my rightful place on the racing/time potential totem pole.After that it was just a case of maintaining peer group talent position.That advice has proved fairly correct over the years since.
So you probably have quite a bit of improvement ahead of you.I would agree,however,with the more elite runners on this thread that your particular chances of reaching your 3m/km goal for anything more than 3K at the most is pretty remote.
Incidentally,I don't trust or count any pb's except those done on a certified track.
That said,if you do stick with it you should have good relative success in your peer age group races,and who knows,you may surprise a few of us time sceptics.
Good luck and enjoy.

#17 Little K

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 02:46 PM

I hope you get there victoralias, and i hope i do too eventually. Zatopek in December might be a good chance for you get in a fast race and make some improvemnets on your PB.

#18 Rudolf

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 03:35 PM

victoralias, the reason for validity question ofthe question is that to improve from 9 to 8 is not sama as from 4 to 3, but Yiou alread corrected it that it is aboutreaching full potential, runner getting from 9 to 8 quickly is notreaching potential, that runner will get with right training to at least 4 min.

So because You were exstremely healthy and fit, and You had great legs and core strenght for weight and furniture etc, and Your blood system is not cloged frokwrong nutrition, You bypassed the whole begginers struggle from 9 to and to 6 and to 5 etc, You kind of jumped the running quee via furniture shortcut -  :p

so the number of years ofrunning is not the same like number of years for real begginer who is unhealthy and unfit.

Thats all.


However You have 1 big thingy going for You - You do not accept limiting belkieves and You do not let society to proggramm You into limiting thinking, so You have this 1 fact working for You.

Other issue is limiting believe of western society science etc, that teh body needs to age and deteriorate in time, and You kind of are still traped by this programming, it shows in Your statement - I am 43 so I do have time left - kind of like women ttalking about time clock ticking with childbearing ability.

If You wanna talk this issue, I am glad to do it and give You some infosd and links, however I am not talking this on this forum.

Good luck, I wish You succes in this,

I have comparable goals myself.
Like improving all my PBs since teenage years. I am 52.

#19 hasbeen

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 03:46 PM

I'm sorry - your first month of running consisted of 4 weeks of 160km+ per week? :p  

Do you have a history of exercise or sport participation? It's amazing you haven't stress fractures or other injuries let alone that you are running as well as you are. You've made amazing progress over the first six months but sub 30min 10km is an elite achievement, good luck with it. :-)

#20 wombatface

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 04:34 PM

View PostDrJH, on Jun 13 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

There are only a handful of 43 year olds that can sustain 3 min km pace. Mona didn't even manage it this year at Sandown! The chances of you doing it much beyond about 3k are miniscule. Good luck!

I agree with Dr JH.

Mona has the age 43 WR for 10000m with 29:28.48. The age 44 WR is held by Haile Satain with 29:55.10. The age 45 WR is held by non other than Alain Mimoun with 30:16.8 set in 1966.

The 10th ranked runner in the 40-44 age-group ran 31:42.85 in 2006.

Normally a runner might get close to their peak  8 to 12 years after commencing training if you start as an adult.  Your problem is that performance starts to decline with age.  Having started running late in life, you could still be running PBs at 50 or later, but not sub-30 for 10k (unless it's a triathlon 10k).

Keep enjoying the training and racing. It looks like you're talented enough to enjoy success within your age-group. Have fun!

#21 DrJH

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 04:34 PM

In the world masters rankings for 2006 there was one runner under 15 min for 5k in the 45-49 age group. There weren't too many more in the 40-44s. A 30 min 10k isn't impossible for a 43 year old but it would be one of the best ever performances by an Australian runner. You would need the sort of ability that should have won you races at high school. I presume you were either lost in the system or your 30 min 10k is a bit of a pipe dream.

#22 chilliman

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 05:10 PM

View Postvictoralias, on Jun 13 2007, 10:15 PM, said:

Despite my age -43 in July- I'm new to running. .........  In my first ever race (Puffing Billy 2006) I averaged 4 minute per k pace and this year, after two months of training, I had improved by 30 seconds per kilometer in the same race.

View Posthasbeen, on Jun 14 2007, 03:46 PM, said:

I'm sorry - your first month of running consisted of 4 weeks of 160km+ per week? :p  
Do you have a history of exercise or sport participation?


Victoralias, didn't you post over here that you were a 10.6 second 100m sprinter ? :p

I wouldn't describe that exactly as "new to running". Still amazing effort to run the times you do.

#23 lactatehead

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 06:20 PM

Here is the 40-45 age group WR: 28:30.88 Martti Vainio(FIN)

I think recent poor performances in times for veteranns has nothing to do with what is possible.

#24 Steve 'The Footman'

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 06:47 PM

When I was seriously into track racing the 3 minute kilometre was always my goal.  My training in speedwork was always about being comfortable running near that pace.  After 5 years I was able to run sub 15 minutes for 5000M but only ever ran 30:42 for 10000M.

I think you should do the track season if you want to be running 3 minutes/km.  Try to do it over an accurate 3km first and then go for 5000M.  If you start to run some accurate races on the track you may have a more realistic idea of what you are doing and what you can do.

Good Luck, it would be nice to have a world class Australian Masters Distance Runner.

#25 SlingRunner

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 06:52 PM

If you want to be the new Jack Foster, you need to start running 10 years ago.....


From Athletics New Zealand

Jack Foster
23 May 1932 - 5 June 2004.
By Murray McKinnon

Jack Foster a legend amongst marathon runners in New Zealand and a pioneer in the Masters grades was tragically killed in a motor accident, while out on his other passion, cycling, in his home town of Rotorua on Saturday June 5. Foster is best remembered for his silver medal performance in the marathon at the 1974 Commonwealth Games in Christchurch where at the age of 41 he set a world masters record of 2h 11m 18s.

Born in Liverpool England, Foster first came to New Zealand as a 24 year old, then he returned to Britain, married Isabella and emigrated again five years later. Cycling was his life in Britain, but in Rotorua the cycling was limited to riding to and from work. One day at the age of 32 he had the bright idea that he would go for a run. It was for only seven minutes, but this was the start of an outstanding career and record.

Foster didn't like the term training, for him running was an enjoyment and he just went for a run each day. He didn't like running on the roads, preferring to run over very hilly country, where the very nature of the terrain gave him all the work out he needed. He was not a big mileage person either, rarely going over 80 miles a week. For Foster running was a pleasure and the success he achieved was almost accidental, and not planned. He ran hard, bloody hard and times meant more to him than wins. He would prefer to run a personal best in a race and be third or fourth than win in a mediocre time. Anything other than full out effort was negative running. From his local club runs in Rotorua to the international events Foster always raced full out. His philosophy was 'a fit person has a higher quality of life'.

Foster's first marathon of any importance was second in the Rotorua marathon in 1966 in 2h 27m 50s. His first major overseas race was the Canadian International marathon in 1969, where he finished third in 2h 19m 2s. He first represented New Zealand at the 1970 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh where he was a creditable fourth in 2h 14m 44s. Also in 1970 he returned to the Canadian International event in Toronto which he won in 2h 16m 23s. Later in 1970 he ran the Fukuoka Marathon in a New Zealand best time of 2h 12m 17s, finishing fourth. In 1971 he ran the International Classic Marathon in Athens and the Fukuoka event again, claiming third in both. On August 15 1971, Foster circled Porritt Stadium Hamilton to set a world record for 20 miles and also set New Zealand records for 15 miles, 25,000m and 30,000m. As he wrote in his daily running diary, '80 bloody laps, must be stupid, three New Zealand records and a world best, not bad for an old bugger'.

Foster won the 1970 Rotorua marathon and won a further three titles around the Lake. Following his 1972 Rotorua victory he went on to represent New Zealand at the Munich Olympic Games where he finished a fine eighth in 2h 16m 51s. A year later Foster won the Kyoto Marathon in 2h 14m 53s and in 1973 ran second in the New Zealand championship in Christchurch, which doubled as the Commonwealth Games trial. Foster ran his most memorable and best marathon at home in the Christchurch Commonwealth Games. He was beaten by a better man, on the day, in Ian Thompson of Great Britain, but he had achieved his goal of running five minute miles over a marathon distance. His silver medal was presented to him by the Queen a moment he always treasured. Six months later in Los Angeles he won the USA title in 2h 18m 24s. He won the 1975 Honolulu marathon in record time. In 1976 Foster won his only New Zealand marathon title, in Auckland, in 2h 16m 27s, and competed at the Montreal Olympic Games where he finished 17th. On his return he won his only other New Zealand title, the 1976 road title.

Cross country running was his other love. He was part of the team that won the World Teams title in 1975, where he finished 36th. In 1977 he was 33rd and he also competed in the 1979 World Championship. In 1973 he was awarded the Lonsdale Cup by the New Zealand Olympic Committee for the most outstanding performance in an Olympic sport in that year. One of his most amazing runs in New Zealand was in August 1973 in the annual Onehunga to Auckland 6.9 mile road race. Raced across the isthmus Foster cut out the distance in 31m 34s to carve 57 seconds off Jeff Julian's record. His fourth mile was in 4m 24s, the next in 4m 33s and the downhill mile to the Parnell Rose Gardens in 4m 19s. He was flying on that day. Foster was justified in later saying that it was his fastest ever road race, as his time at the six mile point in the race was 27m 19s, 3.8s under Rex Maddaford's New Zealand track record, at the time.

Described by his son Jackson as 'like a white Kenyan' and 'an oxygen processing unit on legs', Foster was an economical runner who virtually floated over the ground. His fastest marathon times each year from 38 invariably ended up world age group records. One of his disappointments came in 1977 in the famous short course Auckland marathon. In great form and in perfect conditions Foster was set to record the fastest marathon in the world for a 45 year old. He finished fifth in 2h 4m 53s, and immediately expressed how annoyed he was that it was not the correct distance. The course was one and a half miles short and taking into account this extra distance his adjusted time would have been 2h 12m 39s. In June 1981 he returned to the scene of his greatest moment and the Christchurch marathon and at the age of 49 finished fifth in 2h 22m 48s. A year later in the Auckland marathon Foster set a world 50-54 age group record of 2h 20m 28s, finishing tenth. Foster was on record after this effort saying that the world records didn't worry him, the challenge that day was to become the first 50 year old in the world to break 2h 20m.

Throughout his career Foster remained extremely modest over his achievements. He felt uncomfortable in a crowd of people and as a result declined invitations to attend special functions and anniversaries, where his efforts would have been acknowledged. For him, out cycling or running and being at one with the elements gave him the greatest satisfaction. Foster summed up his career by saying, 'what I've achieved as a runner may have inspired other 35-year-plus men to get up and have a go. I'd like to think so'.


#26 Mars

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 07:26 PM

victoralias in answer to your first question I think give it 3 years of steady improvement. If you keep to that Lydiard system you will be amazed at what you achieve. Work on two Lydiard preparations of six months per year.

So that's around 10-12 weeks for the base conditioning phase, 4 weeks of hills, 4 weeks of repetitions, 4 weeks of race practice and time trials and two weeks taper before a goal race.

So that's 24-26 weeks for each preparation.

Repeat that twice a year and after six preparations you'll be storming through your 10k's at times faster than you are running now.

Who knows...?

Arthur used to tell me that to really see changes in your physiology you need to give it between 5-8 years, but you will see some really good improvements after 3 years. Snell as a young lad of 18 came on very quickly in 2-3 years, but Magee and Halberg took longer to hit top form.

Everyone is different but if you stick with it you will see improvements and great health benefits.

Good luck.

#27 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:05 PM

View Postchilliman, on Jun 14 2007, 05:10 PM, said:

Victoralias, didn't you post over here that you were a 10.6 second 100m sprinter ? :p

I wouldn't describe that exactly as "new to running". Still amazing effort to run the times you do.

Yeah but that was in highschool with no training. I didn't even think of myself as a runner then and had no interest in running.

Edited by victoralias, 14 June 2007 - 08:29 PM.


#28 BEN-HUR

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:19 PM

View Postvictoralias, on Jun 14 2007, 11:09 AM, said:

For my first month of training I more or less followed Mottram's training schedule. 100 miles per week, long runs Wed and Sun and two runs (one for an hour or so and a half hour recovery) other days. Now I run 1 hour 30 minimum per day. In the one run at least twice a week and divided into 2 sessions on other days, one a recovery run. In the main sessions I start with a heart rate around 140 bpm and build up to half an hour at 150-160 bpm and then drop it back for half an hour or so. I'm hitting 3.30 pace at around 160 bpm. In the recovery sessions I run with my brother and his partner and we go so SLOW I feel like I'm falling asleep but we usually run for more than an hour. So I work pretty hard for a beginner. I'm a great believer in the Lydiard approach as you can no doubt tell.
Hi victoralias,
Like as you requested in your opening post - I am not going to tell you it is impossible. You have first got to believe you can do it before there is any chance you can do it. Secondly, you must have the desire to put in the work (training) to achieve your goal. From what I've read - you are doing both, although the second aspect (training) does need some fine tuning. Before I go into this; being a good athlete or getting the most out of your body requires a holistic approach. From reading previous posts of yours on other topics on this forum; your diet, philosophy & devotion appear sound. With this in mind just relate your age to just times around the sun on planet earth. As Mottram would most likely  put it - it takes "balls" to have a goal like yours & then to post it on a public forum such as this & probably same goes for me for what I am about to write because there are always going to be people who will come across a tad negative. BTW your profile (photo) looks quite similar to Mona - & you are of similar age. :p
To the training. I am going to stick my neck out & be a bit specific. to run 3min. a km for 10km requires very specific work to be done consistantly for an ongoing period (years). It requires hard race specific sessions & then recovery runs so as the sessions can be absorbed & prevent injury. I feel you need to train twice a day from Monday to Friday. Once on Sunday as it will be longer than what you have been doing. I think it is best to have a complete day off to absorb the Mon.-Fri. training & to be a bit fresh for your long run on Sunday, thus Saturday is the best day to rest.
This is only an example of what I mean & I won't be too specific:
Sunday: AM- long run of 2hrs - 2hrs30min. The last 30min. to be done at tempo pace (solid but relaxed).
             PM- stretching & some core muscle work.
Monday: AM- 1hr. relaxed running.
             PM- 40min. - 1hr. relaxed running.
Tuesday: AM- VO2 session- i.e. 8-10x 1km reps. at 5km race pace. The recovery should be jogging 50-90% of the rep. time (any shorter & you run the risk of turning the session into a Lactate Threshold session). e.g 8x 3.00min. with 90sec. jog rec. You need to suss out your pace for staters & progress from there. Another variety could be 6x 5min reps. or 4-5x2km reps.
              PM: 40min. relaxed running.
Wednesday: AM- 90min running - relaxed to medium pace.
                   PM- 40min relaxed running.
Thursday: AM- Lactate Threshold session- i.e. 8-15km solid running (not race pace).
                PM- 40min relaxed running.
Friday: AM- 1hr. relaxed running.
           PM- Speed session- i.e. 10-15x 1min. reps with 40sec.-1min. jog recov or 2min. reps with 1min. jog recov. It depends on how you feel at this time of the week & it shouldn't be a very tough workout - just to get the legs ticking over at a good pace.
Saturday: rest.
The above sessions would comprise of a warm-up run with stridethroughs before, & a warm-down run afterwards.
I do welcome constructive comments so we can all learn. :p
Regards,
BEN-HUR.

#29 Sawadee

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:25 PM

Victoralias! 10.6 for a 100! Did someone push you off a cliff? :p

#30 wombatface

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:27 PM

View Postlactatehead, on Jun 14 2007, 04:20 AM, said:

Here is the 40-45 age group WR: 28:30.88 Martti Vainio(FIN)

I think recent poor performances in times for veteranns has nothing to do with what is possible.

Vainio admitted to using steroids prior to the '84 Olympics. Perhaps he was clean when he ran the 28:30, but who knows.

This thread reminds me of the one about Alex Vero, the 3 hour marathoner who wants to make the UK Olympic team. Not long after starting to train he ran a half marathon in 1:35:20 (Feb 2006). 12 months later he ran 1:15:26. After a bad race in the Paris Marathon he has now revised his goal to trying to run sub 2:30 in London next year. This is still a good improvement, and shows what's possible by setting lofty goals.

Fast improvement to world class just doesn't happen in distance running. Even the 20-year-old champions we see these days have been running since childhood. victoralias, why not take a long term view with your running. Aim to improve over the next 5 years, and then to be still running 20 years after that.

Sparkie, you probably realise this, but you never got the best out of yourself as a 10k runner. 51 second 400 speed is good for 30 minutes or better at 10k.

#31 Easy Tiger

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:34 PM

Firstly, you are off to an amazing start, congratulations.

With that speed you'll make it easy, just do 100 really slow 100m's back to back  :p

Maybe target 3km's for a while whilst building your endurance base. When you get down to the 8.20's (ie Freaking Quick and Fit) you can start thinking about 30min. If you want to be a masters champ and have run 10.6 without training and run 28min for 8km's then you'll be very hard to beat in 800 and 1500, although there are a few awesome middle distance masters in Victoria at the moment. Not sure of your definition of 'no training', is that i played footy but no specific 100m training or i sat on a couch my whole life then pulled a 10.6 out of my backside?

World record for 10km over 40's is 28.30 and 30.02 for 45's, however the 800m 0ver 45's WR is pretty much in the bag for you, it's only 1.54.18.   :p  

World Masters Records

#32 Easy Tiger

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:39 PM

Wombatface said

Quote

Sparkie, you probably realise this, but you never got the best out of yourself as a 10k runner. 51 second 400 speed is good for 30 minutes or better at 10k.

Ben Johnson could jog 51sec in lead boots, what should he run for 10km?

#33 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 08:43 PM

View PostSteve, on Jun 14 2007, 06:47 PM, said:

When I was seriously into track racing the 3 minute kilometre was always my goal.  My training in speedwork was always about being comfortable running near that pace.  After 5 years I was able to run sub 15 minutes for 5000M but only ever ran 30:42 for 10000M.

I think you should do the track season if you want to be running 3 minutes/km.  Try to do it over an accurate 3km first and then go for 5000M.  If you start to run some accurate races on the track you may have a more realistic idea of what you are doing and what you can do.

Good Luck, it would be nice to have a world class Australian Masters Distance Runner.

I've been waiting to hear from someone who could give me a personal account. Greatly appreciate the input. 5 years to run sub-3 min k pace for 5K. 5 years of back-breaking work no doubt. That's an intimidating thought. A couple of further questions: how far could you run at 3 minute pace at first and how much did you improve during your first year of training?

#34 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 09:21 PM

View Posthasbeen, on Jun 14 2007, 03:46 PM, said:

I'm sorry - your first month of running consisted of 4 weeks of 160km+ per week? :p  

Do you have a history of exercise or sport participation? It's amazing you haven't stress fractures or other injuries let alone that you are running as well as you are. You've made amazing progress over the first six months but sub 30min 10km is an elite achievement, good luck with it. :-)

I have done regular weight training since age 24. Thanks for the good wishes.

#35 Schtumpy

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 09:30 PM

View Postlactatehead, on Jun 13 2007, 08:03 PM, said:

A lot of it will come down to how much natural ability you have. Good luck.

I'm with Lactatehead.

It's all well and good to say "I've improved this much in this amount of time so therefore I should be able to reach this speed soon." If you have the talent to do it then reach it you shall.

But whether or not you reach your goal involves a whole lot more than a decision. You need the right mum and dad as well and all those lovely genes that Mr Mottram and Mr Bekele et al have been blessed with.

Good luck with your search for contentment. I think your progress has been awesome.

#36 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:49 PM

View PostMars, on Jun 14 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

Arthur used to tell me that to really see changes in your physiology you need to give it between 5-8 years

That's what I was afraid of Mars. Nice to hear from someone who knew the guru personally. Hard to believe that it is still not universally recognised that he was essentially right.

#37 victoralias

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 11:18 PM

View PostBEN-HUR, on Jun 14 2007, 08:19 PM, said:

BTW your profile (photo) looks quite similar to Mona - & you are of similar age. :p

I'm changing that photograph for an action shot as my brother says I look like a drug addict and criminal in it!

Your schedule is quite close to what I already do Ben Hur and close to Mottram's I notice. I do not at this point run 1k or 400 meter intervals since I wondered -with Lydiard- whether there would be any point to my doing speed work when I'm still not aerobically strong (it may seem like it perhaps but I think thats because I'm compensating for my relative lack of fitness with my natural economy and leg speed). I'm certainly open to suggestion on this one though. I should probably do some experimentation with the faster work and see if it proves helpful. I want to do whatever it takes. My long runs are as long as you propose though. I do like to run for at least 2 hours these days when I go long.

Edited by victoralias, 14 June 2007 - 11:19 PM.


#38 MF

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 01:27 AM

View Posthasbeen, on Jun 14 2007, 03:46 PM, said:

I'm sorry - your first month of running consisted of 4 weeks of 160km+ per week? :p  

Do you have a history of exercise or sport participation? It's amazing you haven't stress fractures or other injuries let alone that you are running as well as you are. You've made amazing progress over the first six months but sub 30min 10km is an elite achievement, good luck with it. :-)


View Postvictoralias, on Jun 14 2007, 08:05 PM, said:

Yeah but that was in highschool with no training. I didn't even think of myself as a runner then and had no interest in running.


I'm a sceptic.  100 miles a week straight off, and a history of a sub 11 100m?  Great effort at any age but shit, you aren't new to runnning, and if you didn't think of yourself as a runner at 10.6 I dunno what you were thinking.  Do you consider yourself one now?

I wish you all the best in your goals, and I envy your times- good luck.

#39 Rudolf

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 09:05 AM

good to see there is more positive advice than negative limitators.

BenHur - I would say, that core training needs more attention than just sunday afternoon, but than Victor is experienced long term bodybuilder very well developed in that departement (which in my view is the reason for his fast running progress) and he would probably continue with some of that work anyway.

#40 Colin

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:21 AM

Victor I reckon you need a mangager, and I'm the right person for the job. We , I mean you, can make lots of money on the US road racing circuit.

Seriously, its not out of the realms to make an improvement such as you have, or to run better than other 43 yr olds. There is aneccotal eveidence that age group top performers in the older age groups are not the same athletes as were the best say 20 or 30 yrs previously. Due to physical factors (muscles losing elasticity, chronic injuries etc) and mental (motivation to break PB's no longer there- obviously cannot break PB's).
Ed Whitlock took a break from competitive running between early 20's and 40's and then smashed WR's in age groups (inc sub 3hr mara at 71). However, he was already a shit hot runner as a 20 yo (49min 10 milers).

So getting from where you were to a 79min half quickly at age 42 is no great shakes. I was still doing those sorts of times then without as much effort as now doing 82 (age 49). However, to make the assumption that you can then run sub 30min 10km is far fetched, but hey if it motivates you then go for it. The progression is not going to be the same.

Those sorts of times in any case are not going to come from just entering 10km races, halfs etc, its going to require some track seasons, doing 1500's , 3,000's etc and doing them at similar performance- perhaps 8:20 3km or so- if you can do that then sub 30 is realistic, but its not at present.

Just want to add one more thing. The majority have been sceptical or dismissive in answers not because of what you are trying to achieve, but your claimed 'newby' status. There are 'newbies' and then there are 'not so newbies'.
Anyone looking at your rapid posts can see that you know a hellava lot about running and athletics, and with a bit of digging can find that you did not just decide one day recently to train. I too can say i ran a sub 3hr two yrs ago off '8 wks training', but the reality is that in the previous two years my 'maintenance running' was shorter stuff not slower that 4min/km.And I'd been in the game for 28 yrs then.

Plus , you are dismissive of your earlier performances being worth anything. I don't know of many (any?) who can run 10.6 at school off 'no training'. I think others will take that as 'rubbing it in' and big noting your talent, when most of those you are asking for advice here are hard working in training for miniscule benefit.

So perhaps you approach could have been different, or perhaps its the way you would like it to be.

From someone whose been around the traps.

cheers :p

ps , btw, Ben-Hur, you have given good reasons for taking a rest on Saturday:

Quote

I think it is best to have a complete day off to absorb the Mon.-Fri. training & to be a bit fresh for your long run on Sunday, thus Saturday is the best day to rest.
.... but are you sure that's just not to fit in with devine reasons? :p

Edited by Colin, 15 June 2007 - 10:24 AM.


#41 superflake

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:25 AM

I have the same goal as victoralias although not in the same speed bracket.

I can run a 1k rep in a session at 3:24.
My 3000m track PB is 10:33 so 3:31 per k.

But I can't run 17:30 for 5k. PB is 18:26.

And 35 for 10k is years away with present PB of 38:05. Although I have knocked a minute off this since early March.

Just have to keep working at getting faster.

Good luck to victoralias in striving for the goal.

#42 lactatehead

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:38 AM

Victoralias,

Are you currently with a club in Victoria and are you doing the AV winter season? If regular racing is part of your training schedule then I would strongly recommend getting stuck in. You will find a lot of other over 40s of the same standard and one or two really goods ones. If you are already doing the winter season then I will look out for you at the 16k cross country in Geelong next week.

#43 victoralias

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 11:43 AM

View PostColin, on Jun 15 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

I think others will take that as 'rubbing it in' and big noting your talent, when most of those you are asking for advice here are hard working in training for miniscule benefit.

I'm sorry if I came across as big noting myself. It was not my intention and in fact I don't really know if I'm anything other than a mediocre runner. Like you said my times are not that flash and I've never claimed they were. I was only wondering -fairly innocently- how long it took someone who actually got from 3.30 min k pace to 3 min k pace to do that. I'd like to run at that pace if I could but I was pretty far from the implication that I'd do it as a matter a course. I understand the scepticism and I'm not bothered by it. I'll certainly be giving it my best shot though.

My knowledge of running and my running skill (such as it is) has, I promise you, been acquired over the past few months just because it is my nature to throw myself into the things that interested me with reckless abandon. I've been that way since I was a small child. I know it seems unlikely to you but I really am a newbie in the first sense of the term. I knew nothing about running a year ago, nothing. Yes I was fit before I started training but anaerobically rather than aerobically. I ran my first ever race outside of school last year in Puffing Pilly and formed the desire to do better the following year. It all started from there. Maybe I didn't phrase things as sensitively as I should have and I apologise if I've come across as an arrogant toss-pot. I think if you met me you'd realize that you've misjudged me though. I'm actually pretty humble and unsure of my ability as a runner. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm never self-satisfied after a race but usually quite depressed!

PS. The 100 meter time came up as part of an indepedent discussion about Mottram's sprinting ability and I was just illustrating a point, not boasting about me speed (at least not consciously!). Also 10.6 isn't that fast. Jason Akermanas and a host of footy and rugby players can cover off 100 meters in that time.

Edited by victoralias, 15 June 2007 - 11:56 AM.


#44 victoralias

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 11:52 AM

View Postsuperflake, on Jun 15 2007, 10:25 AM, said:

I have the same goal as victoralias although not in the same speed bracket.

I can run a 1k rep in a session at 3:24.
My 3000m track PB is 10:33 so 3:31 per k.

But I can't run 17:30 for 5k. PB is 18:26.

And 35 for 10k is years away with present PB of 38:05. Although I have knocked a minute off this since early March.

Just have to keep working at getting faster.

Good luck to victoralias in striving for the goal.

Same to you superflake. The most any of us can do is to try our hardest and, if we do that, we can't really fail.

#45 Rudolf

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:10 PM

View Postvictoralias, on Jun 15 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

Also 10.6 isn't that fast. Jason Akermanas and a host of footy and rugby players can cover off 100 meters in that time.

measured by the rugby coach with the eggtimer ?

I do not buy any of those times unless at track meet with electronic timing

#46 victoralias

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:12 PM

View PostRudolf, on Jun 14 2007, 03:35 PM, said:

However You have 1 big thingy going for You - You do not accept limiting belkieves and You do not let society to proggramm You into limiting thinking, so You have this 1 fact working for You.

Other issue is limiting believe of western society science etc, that teh body needs to age and deteriorate in time, and You kind of are still traped by this programming, it shows in Your statement - I am 43 so I do have time left - kind of like women ttalking about time clock ticking with childbearing ability.

If You wanna talk this issue, I am glad to do it and give You some infosd and links, however I am not talking this on this forum.

Good luck, I wish You succes in this,

I have comparable goals myself.
Like improving all my PBs since teenage years. I am 52.

You've read me right Rudolf when you say I don't easily accept limiting beliefs and but you're are also right when you say I've accepted that the clock is ticking. I'm always up for a philosophical discussion -I'm the guy who invites the door-knockers inside rather than sets the dog on them!- so e-mail at jbc41@opustnet.com.au if you wish. I have a strong sceptical bent but I'm also open to any idea that can withstand a sceptical challenge by producing real results.

Edited by victoralias, 15 June 2007 - 12:13 PM.


#47 Colin

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:23 PM

Victor,
You do admit though that you did PB in 2006, so at least 12months and not a 'few months'. Huge difference

View Postvictoralias, on Jun 15 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

Maybe I didn't phrase things as sensitively as I should have and I apologise if I've come across as an arrogant toss-pot. I think if you met me you'd realize that you've misjudged me though. I'm actually pretty humble and unsure of my ability as a runner.
No judgement made , its a forum after all. Just offering reasons why people would be sceptical and negative.
Still, sub 30min is world class at your age and a big leap from where you are. So my offer to be manager is more than just a bit tongue in cheek.

View Postvictoralias, on Jun 15 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm never self-satisfied after a race but usually quite depressed!
That's not such a bad thing by itself. Most ambitious people are, its a sense of wanting to achieve even more, especially as time runs out.

cheers

btw Rudolf,
There are quite a few fast rugby league and union wingers in that bracket who have had 'run-offs' in proper timed conditions. Would love to know what Brian Habana can do over 60m.

#48 lactatehead

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:54 PM

View Postvictoralias, on Jun 14 2007, 06:43 PM, said:

I apologise if I've come across as an arrogant toss-pot. I think if you met me you'd realize that you've misjudged me though.

I am sure that you never intentionally ignored my question about whether you are attached to a club in Victoria. Because that could appear as a little arrogant.

#49 victoralias

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:57 PM

View PostColin, on Jun 15 2007, 12:23 PM, said:

Victor,
You do admit though that you did PB in 2006, so at least 12months and not a 'few months'. Huge difference

That was my first race. I did not start training until January 2007 since Puffy B 2007 was on the horizon. Then I injured my achilles and had to rest for much of Feb and March. Then I trained throughout April and the race was May 6th. Don't be so determined to think I'll trying to mislead you! I'm not.

Edited by victoralias, 15 June 2007 - 01:02 PM.


#50 victoralias

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 01:10 PM

View Postlactatehead, on Jun 15 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

I am sure that you never intentionally ignored my question about whether you are attached to a club in Victoria. Because that could appear as a little arrogant.

I'm not attached lactatehead. I'm more of a fun runner than a club runner at this point. I don't feel confident enough of my running abilties to join a club yet. I've raced a series of races over the last month (from 4k to 23k) to find out where I'm at and I've found out. Now I think I'll go back to the training track/drawing-board for a while and maybe look at racing City2Surf in August. If I'm feeling really good before then I'll look at flying to Tasmania to race the Mercure Launceston Ten. I need to get some more work into myself, alot more work.

Edited by victoralias, 15 June 2007 - 01:11 PM.