25 replies to this topic

[Morley]

I have been on the bike due to an Achilles injury. Mainly to keep up the fitness. Have been just getting out there to do 20 - 32K three times a week and a long ride 80 - 120K on a Sunday. I'm starting to think what is the best type of riding program as cross training to benefit a runner? Should it be time based long rides; or a short quicker paced rides; or interval type stuff? My main interest is running 10K and 1/2 marathons.

[thomo]

Hi Morley,

I'm in the same boat as you. Done an achilles and an ankle (same leg).

Bike riding is all I can do. So I will be interested in the responses also.

I ride every second day. Between 30 minutes and an hour on my mountain bike. I need to do a longer ride like yourself, not 80+ I would have to build up to that.

I can now ride at an average of 19kph on the mountain bike. That is good for me. I try to throw some faster work and also push up the occasional hill.

This has helped me maintain some sort of fitness.

So I think doing what you suggested mixing it up will help you (and me)when you/we get back to running.

Good luck

thomo

[Morley]

Hi Thomo. I got the Achilles injury last November and started jog/walk (400 m repeats with 3.2K total on grass) training 6 weeks ago. Lukily there is no problem on the bike. I'm enjoying the bike and will use it as cross-training when fully recovered from injury. Hence my question on best approach.

My bike is a hybrid and so I can managed 24 - 25Km/hr on longer rides and quicker on the short stuff. The road bikes still fly past me. Managed over 600Km in May and happy with my fitness.

Also doing heaps of leg exercises including heel raises and drops on a step with 8Kg in a backpack (3 sets of 30 three times a day). The Achilles have never been so strong.

Seeing the physio this week and hopefull of cranking up the jogging sessions.

I'm interested in what others do on the bike as cross training. I've just applied my running program to the bike and lengthened the time spent on the bike. I was told to multipy the distance/time by 2.9 to get a rough comparrison. Did a tri the other week - 21K bike; 3.2K jog and walk; and stopped for a haircut .

Hope your injury improves.

[brizza]

i think the best thing may be to not to get to technical about how much and just enjoy a bit of cycling until you are fit and well enough to return to running,then cross train for the hell of it

[rohan]

one year i was injured to the point i could only run max of 30km per week... not quite the same category as you guys. no run was longer than 10km.

was doing a longish ride of 90km.
shorter one and a half hour rides, and two velodrome sessions per week. eg. 2km hard, 1km float repeat 7 times.

ran a 36;45 10km off that training.

[chonky]

i was out of action for 6months last year so did some riding on a mountain bike
a typical week would have been.
mon- rest
tues- 40km with 5x2km hard efforts
wed- rest
thurs- 40km with 3x5km hard efforts
fri- rest
sat- 80- 100km easy
sun 50-60km easy/steady.
i believe the interval work on the bike helped me maintain some running fittness
when i started running again i didnt have too much trouble getting back up to speed again.
regards chonky

[Colin]

Just to get a little technical- sorry brizza.

If you are doing only cycling and nothing else (not rohan), then expect the quads to suffer a little bit especially on downhills, though strong on uphills.

Running uses eccentric loading on the quads- braking in otherwords, or slowing the straightening of leg against a force. Pushing the pedals strengthens the opposite, which is required for hill running- so there is an imbalance or weakening of the eccentric contractions.

I did bugger all running for 4 wks prior to the Two Oceans ultra. Aerobically etc I was able to run 3hr mara pace still, and was even stronger than usual on hills. But my quads were hurting from about 10km in after the first long gradual downhill. By the end, after two mountain passes, it was absolutely screaming.

The way to counter this somewhat, is to pedal by pulling as well as pushing all the time, which works the glutes in a running motion, and kind of acts as weight training on legs- or even do some actual weight training.

cheers

[moby]

I’m also currently injured (stress fracture) and so will be on the exercise bike as my only training for a month.

Do heart rate zones translate across from running to cycling so working in the same zone on the bike will be equivalent to doing so whilst running?

[rohan]

moby, on Jun 18 2007, 01:07 AM, said:

Do heart rate zones translate across from running to cycling so working in the same zone on the bike will be equivalent to doing so whilst running?

i know nothing about HR training... but my coach(tri specialist) expects slightly lower HRs from people when on the bike compared to running.
can't give you the specifics.

[Rudolf]

Morley - question - do You do 8kg heel rises-drops 1legged or 2legged ?

As for bike, I think, if it is issue of crosstraing, that slower the bike the better = heavy MTB with fat tires and have them bit soft, so the bike requires consyttant attention of peddaling forces and never rides for free (unless down hill)..
Long rides should go by times, since it really depends on the bike, eg Rohan 90 km on road racers could take the same time and effort as 30-45-60 or whatever kms on slow bike.

Because legs not suffering, the bike lets You easyly to go over 2-3 hours, so occasional 5-6 hours rides could be usefull
If it really 6 hours of pedalling, no downhills, stopping time etc.

[Colin]

rohan, on Jun 18 2007, 11:11 AM, said:

i know nothing about HR training... but my coach(tri specialist) expects slightly lower HRs from people when on the bike compared to running.
can't give you the specifics.

Runners have huge 'aerobic engines' and 'weak driveshafts'. In other words you will find that as a runner crossing to cycling your legs will hurt and limit your effort way before your HR goes ballistic. Once your legs catch up with training you should be able to do sessions or periods in a ride where the HR acn be put in a similar zone to running- it takes time though.

[Rudolf]

appart from what Colin said, the simple fact is that HR depends on the body position - lowest while horizontal, higher while sitting and highest while standing up straight - it has to do with pumping against the gravity.

So the HR max the max achiecvable for swimmers is lower than sitting cyclist and lower than standing up runners, and this transfers all across the HR zones.

Try it with HR rest.

[Bristol City FC]

Colin, on Jun 18 2007, 10:29 AM, said:

Just to get a little technical- sorry brizza.

If you are doing only cycling and nothing else (not rohan), then expect the quads to suffer a little bit especially on downhills, though strong on uphills.

Running uses eccentric loading on the quads- braking in otherwords, or slowing the straightening of leg against a force. Pushing the pedals strengthens the opposite, which is required for hill running- so there is an imbalance or weakening of the eccentric contractions.

I did bugger all running for 4 wks prior to the Two Oceans ultra. Aerobically etc I was able to run 3hr mara pace still, and was even stronger than usual on hills. But my quads were hurting from about 10km in after the first long gradual downhill. By the end, after two mountain passes, it was absolutely screaming.

The way to counter this somewhat, is to pedal by pulling as well as pushing all the time, which works the glutes in a running motion, and kind of acts as weight training on legs- or even do some actual weight training.

cheers

Hi Colin,

I'm interested in this too, as I also have achilles tendonitis, and while usually it hurts at the beginning of a run, within a couple of K the tendon warms up and the pain goes away, but sometimes it just feels too much of an ache and I usually start walking.
If I could replicate some form of running fitness on a bike it would be good, but I'm limited to gym bikes, so, my question is after a lengthy intro, can the same be done on a gym bike? in terms of training to substitute a run? if so, what's the best way? a long bike session, or intervals on the bike, or spin classes etc?
I already do weights generally so strength's not an issue.

Cheers.

[Colin]

BCFC,

Firstly, if its a recent achilles injury (not a chronic one) then I would definitely limit the ankle movement and strap the foot in a way that the achilles remains unstretched (toes down).

Regarding cycling then for cross training and keeping running economy, I would;

Use lower gears rather than higher and spin at faster cadence against lower resistance.

Use a pulling technique as well as pushing -you have to think while doing it, sub conciously you will revert to just pushing. This strengthens glutes, and also keeps the 'economical' knee lift action.[ One reason why cyclists tend to shuffle a bit more- they don't have this economical action].
It also strengthens the eccentric loading ability a tad - well nothing like actually running, but limits the losses.

Long bike sessions at constant cadence need to be almost twice as long (time)as equiv run.
Interval sessions, spinning say two min on one min off are very useful in getting the HR up.

cheers

Edited by Colin, 18 June 2007 - 02:58 PM.

[THE LONE RUNNER]

the adelaide crows football club and many other clubs use exercise bikes to keep the players in pretty good shape when they have leg and foot injuries etc. former olympic bike coach charlie walsh looks after these players. cheers.

[Bristol City FC]

Colin, on Jun 18 2007, 02:57 PM, said:

BCFC,

Firstly, if its a recent achilles injury (not a chronic one) then I would definitely limit the ankle movement and strap the foot in a way that the achilles remains unstretched (toes down).

Regarding cycling then for cross training and keeping running economy, I would;

Use lower gears rather than higher and spin at faster cadence against lower resistance.

Use a pulling technique as well as pushing -you have to think while doing it, sub conciously you will revert to just pushing. This strengthens glutes, and also keeps the 'economical' knee lift action.[ One reason why cyclists tend to shuffle a bit more- they don't have this economical action].
It also strengthens the eccentric loading ability a tad - well nothing like actually running, but limits the losses.

Long bike sessions at constant cadence need to be almost twice as long (time)as equiv run.
Interval sessions, spinning say two min on one min off are very useful in getting the HR up.

cheers

Thanks Colin, I'll try this out this week. (the injury is about 2 years old, have orthotics now, have had massage, acupuncture, ice, deep heat, faith healing,...you name it i've tried it. Now I just have to manage it!)

[Morley]

Rudolf - The heel raises and drops are single leg. Started off with double up to 3 x 30 with 8kg and then back to 3 x 15 single and built up to 3 x 30 single leg. Also doing side kicks with body band (same reps) and stretching on back with towel looped over each foot.

Thanks for the information provided guys. I've been mainly interested in keeping the HR up as the bike has been for maintaining fitness while not running. I'm likely to do 2 sessions on the bike when back running - maybe one longish ride and one tempo type bike ride.

I did 3.2K of 600 m jog and 200 m brisk walk repeats tonight with no heel discomfort and seeing the physio tomorrow.

[moby]

Colin, on Jun 18 2007, 11:21 AM, said:

Runners have huge 'aerobic engines' and 'weak driveshafts'. In other words you will find that as a runner crossing to cycling your legs will hurt and limit your effort way before your HR goes ballistic. Once your legs catch up with training you should be able to do sessions or periods in a ride where the HR acn be put in a similar zone to running- it takes time though.

Yeah, so I've already found. I'm having to kill myself to get my heart rate up.

[blair]

moby, on Jun 18 2007, 10:09 PM, said:

Yeah, so I've already found. I'm having to kill myself to get my heart rate up.

Surely that would have the opposite of the desired effect.

[Little K]

I'm a big fan of hill reps on the bike. Same time frame as running. 30 sec bursts, or longer ones up to 5mins as well. I find i can get my HR really high doing hills on the bike, more so than running. I'm trying to add a hilly bike session into the usual running prg. Like another speed session, but without the joints getting smashed.

[Run 2 Become]

Hmmm,
I have an exercise bike (ergometer) that i bought a few weeks ago.
Never been a cyclist as my area is too hilly for biking!(though i love to run them!)

The bike has
HRM control program
Wattage control program
Hill Climbing
Intervals...
you name it

I am still experimenting and at the moment for the first 5 sessions i have set it to HRM control ie
i set it to 100bpm and if my heart rate goes below it increases the difficulty (at 110bpm) and at 90bpm it reduces the difficulty.Normal max. is 200bpm and resting is 45ish when i last checked.

Sessions are 30mins atm and i am covering 16-17km at 100+ watts (which doesn't mean much to me) this session isn't over strenuous and just carrying on my initial experimentation.

I try to keep my cadence as measured to 90 RPM (which is easy)
I am cycling to add variety to my training and because i can do it more being at home with wife and kids.
Really i want to get back to full fitness and break my pre six foot 5km PB of 18:54 and go on to sub 60 C2S!

So what can i do to increase my running ability (including the pulling on the pedals)?

Bit of rambling so i hope you get the picture,

Cheers R2B

[Whippet gal]

A few years ago I buggered my groin three months before I was supposed to go to Japan for a half marathon. Couldn't run for more than about a kilometre, but wasn't going to miss a free trip overseas, so I hit the spin bike. Did everything I could think of - speed, power sessions, pushing and pulling on the pedals, out of the saddle, intervals, anywhere from one to two hours at a time. The only other training was a few pool sessions (not many) and teaching some pump and aerobics classes at the gym (which I had to take low impact).

Anyway, long story short, I went to Japan after three months with no running and managed to finish respectably. At that time my PB was 89mins and I finished in 94mins. Aerobic fitness had suffered - I got an awful stitch during it, but other than that, I didn't think it was too bad for such a long time without a run.

[cazz]

Hi,
I am currently injured with PF. I can cycle (I have a hybrid bike) but walking/running is still painful. I came across this thread and was wondering if anyone can add anything more.

My preferred running distance is the 10k to 1/2 Marathon range.
How long should a 'long' session on the bike be?
Any other recommended sessions?
Any helpful weblinks?

Also, once people have recommenced running again, what sort of cross training do they do on the bike? Long sessions or speed type sessions?

Thanks.
Cazz

[Simmo]

Rudolf, on Jun 17 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

As for bike, I think, if it is issue of crosstraing, that slower the bike the better = heavy MTB with fat tires and have them bit soft, so the bike requires consyttant attention of peddaling forces and never rides for free (unless down hill)..
Long rides should go by times, since it really depends on the bike, eg Rohan 90 km on road racers could take the same time and effort as 30-45-60 or whatever kms on slow bike.

Rudolf why do the top MTB racers do a lot of their aerobic training on road bikes? I think they mainly do sport-specific stuff (technical trail riding skills) on their mountain bikes, and long distances on roads to get the miles in their legs. Part of the reason may be that it's much more enjoyable to do 90km on a good road bike, than to do 30km on a heavy bike with soft tyres. Training should be fun!

[southy]

When I had an injury in my foot a few years ago I did a lot of MTB riding. Stated on the road/cycle paths, then dirt trails, then graduated to hills as my foot got stronger and I could push more.
If you use a road bike , you can stay out for hours (if that is what you want) but IMO the transfer is not as great.
Whatever you do needs to be mimicing the running action as much as possible - using the same muscles as running and in as similar a way as possible.
I would be working up to being able to spend as much time as I could standing on the pedals and pushing.
I know a few mt runners who do reps up a nearby mt on their MTB as cross training.

Edited by southy, 09 April 2008 - 01:12 PM.

[Simmo]

I'd have thought standing on the pedals for long periods would not help recovery from, say an achilles, calf or knee injury. Besides, in mtb you don't want to stand on the pedals much when ascending, because if you do the back wheel slips on the dirt/gravel - you tend to stay seated with your weight well back, and using a lower gear.

If you have a leg injury it's probably best not to run or use the legs in the same way as you would in running. While cycling is not going to be perfect in maintaining your peak running fitness, it will at least keep you partially aerobically fit.

The best cross-training for an injured runner is deep water running.

I'd also question the benefits of the mtb climbing repetitions, because they are going to be having a nice rest on the way down - equivalent in running intervals to stopping between the efforts rather than jogging.