18 replies to this topic

[sook54]

Hi
I'm hoping that I will attach a photo showing the wear pattern on the bottom of my Asic Kinseis, which I have just discovered really need replacing - I noticed it on my run today, that I could really feel the pavement shock a lot more.

The timing is not great since I'm about to go overseas tomorrow and will have to wear in a new pair of shoes.

Being a beginning runner I'd appreciate any advice as to whether the wear pattern reveals anything that suggests I should be getting different shoes. I've found them good up to now (better than my Kayanos, which on long runs seem to precipitate pain in my right calf, something or other tibialis muscle).

Linda

[sook54]

[attachment=715:OldAsicKinseis.png]

[Duffman]

Hey Linda,
Sorry if its too late, i only came across this topic today but as no one has offered to assist...
If you get a pair of shoes properly fitted you should only need to use them for a day to soften the material . I think the idea of wearing in shoes over a number of weeks originated from people aquiring shoes from the bottom of the bargain bin and having to develop a functional callous to adapt to the shoe rather than finding a shoe that is properly adapted to their foot. I find using an old sock liner/shoe insert with my foot imprint already in it helps prevent blisters in new shoes if i need to use them immediately.

From the info you provided above I'd agree your shoes really do need replacing and it would appear that neutral is the way to go, but without an idea of your running style, body type, joint flexibility or foot structure I couldn't suggest a specific shoe with features to suit your individual foot and biomechanics.
The shop i work at has a fair bit of info on choosing shoes written by owner/podiatrist/coolrunner 'Steve the Footman'. Have a read and get an idea of the things to look out for then take your old shoes to a running shop and get them to provide you with a full assesment. If you choose a shoe based on a single factor - eg: "there is high pressure over this area therefore i should get this shoe" or "They feel good rocking back and forth on carpet" you will find yourself with a shoe that is excellent for this, but not necessarily any thing else. Go for a run in each shoe and find the one that hugs and supports your foot most comfortably.

All the best!

[sook54]

Thank you so much for the advice and useful links. I wish I lived in Queensland so I could get fitted at your shop

The info about wear pattern was very interesting.

I have decided to stick with my Kayanos while I am overseas (I'm mainly doing shorter runs here) and then to get some proper advice when I get back to Sydney in a couple of weeks.

Linda

[TheShoeGuru]

Linda,
just a quick message to say that I concur completely with the advice that you have been given by Duffman... If you are in Sydney and are looking at somewhere similar to purchase your shoes I know that a store called Running Science (http://www.runningscience.com.au/) offer a similar concept and should be well equipped to help you out.

All the best.

TSG

Edited by TheShoeGuru, 12 July 2007 - 05:20 PM.

[sook54]

I went to Running Science today with these shoes and the nice young man (whose name I forgot to ask) immediately said that I must be a midfoot striker (confirmed by treadmill gait analysis). That is why they wore out so soon, there was very little wear on the heel and the toe. He confirmed that the Nike Free 5s that I bought on special at the airport on my way out of the country are actually good for my running style - I've noticed that I run faster and taller in them and also make very little noise compared to the Asics. He was wearing Nike frees himself!

[DECIM8]

Was going to post exactly the same as what you have been informed.. Midfoot to forefoot striker ..

Perhaps concentrate on your running style, the kinsei is very "springy" in the heel and often (in my experence) gives alot of shock return compared to other shoes making the midfoot and forefoot "skid".


Just know with the nike free its a shoe to use in conjunction with another running shoe not solely on its own (ive injured myself finding out, thankfully not badly) I couldnt really suggest a shoe over the internet however a shoe which is designed for a forefoot striker is Brooks Axiom or Infinity (released december) however both have heavy dual stage posting (decrease pronation, similar support to 2120 but two stage)

Might be an idea to get into a nimbus, glycerin or creation. But like I said cant say 100% any of them (glycerin does have thicker tread tho)

I just inspected the Kinsei and pretty sure the AHAR (hard wearing sole) does not extend to the lateral aspects of the shoe, I would expect with that wear you may also pronate slightly and would be better in a posted shoe (i.e kayano)

Edited by DECIM8, 26 July 2007 - 03:21 PM.

[sook54]

Thank you for your thoughts. I also have a pair of Kayanos, which don't suit me nearly as well as the Kinseis did. On long runs (over 10k) in Kayano I get pain on inside of right calf (went to podiatrist and got some taping on insoles which helps a bit). I will check out the other options you mention. If anything I think I supinate slightly (get more wear on the outside of heel in walking shoes).

How much running do you do in Nike Free compared to other shoe? I.e., do you alternate? decide according to run duration? What sort of injuries did you get?

DECIM8, on Jul , 03:18 PM, said:

Was going to post exactly the same as what you have been informed.. Midfoot to forefoot striker ..

Perhaps concentrate on your running style, the kinsei is very "springy" in the heel and often (in my experence) gives alot of shock return compared to other shoes making the midfoot and forefoot "skid".
Just know with the nike free its a shoe to use in conjunction with another running shoe not solely on its own (ive injured myself finding out, thankfully not badly) I couldnt really suggest a shoe over the internet however a shoe which is designed for a forefoot striker is Brooks Axiom or Infinity (released december) however both have heavy dual stage posting (decrease pronation, similar support to 2120 but two stage)

Might be an idea to get into a nimbus, glycerin or creation. But like I said cant say 100% any of them (glycerin does have thicker tread tho)

I just inspected the Kinsei and pretty sure the AHAR (hard wearing sole) does not extend to the lateral aspects of the shoe, I would expect with that wear you may also pronate slightly and would be better in a posted shoe (i.e kayano)

[DECIM8]

A Rolling In category foot type or over pronator almost always shoes signs of wearing away at the heel strike on the rear lateral (outside corner) A supinator can show these signs but it is very very unlikely. I would almost 100% say you pronate - Which is good!! To what extent is what we need to address.

If you take a look at the front of the shoe on your walking shoes I would expect you would see tread wear on the same spot you see on the Kinsei! This is because slight rotation is made after you pronate. This happens in the forefoot of most runners with a O/P foot. Just like the heel wear.

The Kinsei and Kayano are slightly different in a few areas mainly the Kayano has a plate above the cushioning to stablise the foot, however the Kinsei is more along the lines of a Curved last (not quite there) and wraps around the heel and arch tighter. Id say its preventing your arch movement which is preventing your pain.

And I have checked with the rep - I work for Athlete's Foot btw so we have sole selling rights to this shoe for awhile, And AHAR+ is not in the bit which you wore away this is to increase cushioning.

Obviously this is all speculation however to assess if you roll in just goto the pod or use a running machine or even the fitpad (with someone who can read it :| BTW if you have been perscribed with a arch lift then I would expect you overpronate.

In regards to the Nike Free, I run about 20-25km a week in the shoe and maybe a little walking. I use the Trance to do the rest of my running (would be a good shoe if you also have the kayano but prefer the Kinsei fit - They now are not supportive as they have changed its structure in the medial posting, damn soft tho) I do about 30-50km (depending how I feel)

So Id suggest about 25% of running or max 30% I injured my right knee as when I run my biomechanics is haywire and my knee rotates heavily to the medial aspect of my leg creating huge stress on the knee, I just, thankfully bruised the knee for about 4 weeks.

Edited by DECIM8, 26 July 2007 - 07:51 PM.

[Oakley]

If you are running in Kinseis then dont run in Kayano's

I was a staunch Asics man until recently. They have dropped the ball with their recent collection. Been at the top too long and are making bad shoes in my opinion.

If you wanna keep on wearing Asics get some Cumulus or nimbus, Brooks Axiom or even better. Some Nike Pegasus!

You have to build up into wearing Free's. Dont start out by doing 10k in them first up. You WILL injure yourself. Walk in them first, then run for say 20 mins 2 times a week and build from there. They (Nike) are bringing out Free for those to over pronate, which it seems you dont do.

It is possible to run a marathon in free's given the right build up.

You 'should' really have 2-3 pairs of shoes you alternate anyway so your body doesnt get too used to one pair. It is one reason for injuries.

[DECIM8]

Nike Have a over pronation free out .. Ive got them .. Nike Free 7.0 Alot softer than the 5.0 too...

Im not entirely sure how no one else can see the "rolling in" signs .. But I guess its all speculation until we see the feet.

Edited by DECIM8, 26 July 2007 - 07:53 PM.

[Oakley]

What are the rolling in signs oh shoe guru? In detail with facts... if you will.

[Duffman]

Hi Sook,
Sounds like Running Science did a good job, Ill have to go check them out when I’m down in Sydney. I have a pair of 5.0s too and have found them great. Free’s are a brilliant training device for mid to forefoot strikers who generally have much greater muscular control in their gait cycle than others, in order to ‘place’ the rearfoot more efficiently on the ground to absorb shock and maintain momentum. Excessive medial structure in your joggers is likely to cause you to fight against the shoe, and judging from your previous injury and footwear history this is possibly the cause of your pain.

Also Decim8, posterolateral heel wear on walking shoes isn’t indicative of over pronation or 'rolling in'. This wear occurs naturally for most people, regardless of pronation, because the weightbearing tubercle of the calcaneus is located laterally to the midline of the heel and rests on the lateral side of the shoe. When shoes are used predominately for walking, this wear pattern becomes exaggerated as dorsiflexion is increased for toe clearance and braking. This is why the heel on walking shoes is designed with a much greater angle than running shoes, to increase the initial contact area and stability of heel strike.

The trend these days seems to be towards motion control, making pronation a dirty word so be weary of those suggesting more stability is better.

Edited by Duffman, 26 July 2007 - 11:05 PM.

[Oakley]

Duffman, on Jul 26 2007, 10:26 PM, said:

Hi Sook,
Sounds like Running Science did a good job, Ill have to go check them out when I’m down in Sydney. I have a pair of 5.0s too and have found them great. Free’s are a brilliant training device for mid to forefoot strikers who generally have much greater muscular control in their gait cycle than others, in order to ‘place’ the rearfoot more efficiently on the ground to absorb shock and maintain momentum. Excessive medial structure in your joggers is likely to cause you to fight against the shoe, and judging from your previous injury and footwear history this is possibly the cause of your pain.

Also Decim8, posterolateral heel wear on walking shoes isn’t indicative of over pronation or 'rolling in'. This wear occurs naturally for most people, regardless of pronation, because the weightbearing tubercle of the calcaneus is located laterally to the midline of the heel and rests on the lateral side of the shoe. When shoes are used predominately for walking, this wear pattern becomes exaggerated as dorsiflexion is increased for toe clearance and braking. This is why the heel on walking shoes is designed with a much greater angle than running shoes, to increase the initial contact area and stability of heel strike.

The trend these days seems to be towards motion control, making pronation a dirty word so be weary of those suggesting more stability is better.

WOOHOO! Finally some sensible sense!

I totally agree. Pronation (not to be confused with OVER pronation) is a buzz word when people go to buy shoes. You ask, "do you know if you tend to roll (cant use big words with the public) too much?" reply "oh yes, i roll in too much" I need Kayano's, a friend told me.

Walking shoes make an amazing amount of difference when just walking as aposed to walking in a running shoe. I love my NB ones!

[sook54]

I have high arches and very narrow heels, broad across the front of the foot. The lift is not an arch support, it's on the outside of my right heel. The podiatrist was the one who told me I roll out on that foot. The other one is pretty much straight, rolling slightly in if anything. According to the fitprint thingy I carry 53% of my weight on my right foot. I also have a bunion on the right foot (runs in the family). Looking at the wear pattern on my normal walking shoes the wear is mainly on the ball of the foot (as in the Asics), pretty even on both shoes.

I think I'll go and have another chat to the guy at running science. He seemed to think it was ok for me to do all my running in the frees now (I've built up gradually over the last 4-5 weeks, longest run I've done in them so far was 7km around the bay). My knees are good, I haven't had any problems with them.

Thanks again for all your helpful comments. I really appreciate it!

DECIM8, on Jul , 07:51 PM, said:

Im not entirely sure how no one else can see the "rolling in" signs .. But I guess its all speculation until we see the feet.

[DECIM8]

I stand corrected, taking a look at your foot setup I'd doubt you would over pronate.. So perhaps if you have been happy the kinsei is more on par with what you need.

Oakley you got something against me? I dont pretend to know everything I just say what I do know, Its obvious in this case ive been wrong but like I stated all speculation until I could see the feet. Most of your "facts" are wrong and I dont get up you for it, So why dont you sit back and chill out..

Edited by DECIM8, 27 July 2007 - 09:27 AM.

[Oakley]

The only thing against you is that you think you are right all the time, and think i am wrong without backing it up.
I have a degree in this type of thing, so i do know what im talking about.

[DECIM8]

I dont think I'm right all the time .. I just throw in suggestions. How can you be right or wrong without seeing the problem?

I cant be right all the time, its not possable (would be nice tho) out of interest what degree?

[Oakley]

sook54, on Jul 27 2007, 08:33 AM, said:

I have high arches and very narrow heels, broad across the front of the foot. The lift is not an arch support, it's on the outside of my right heel. The podiatrist was the one who told me I roll out on that foot. The other one is pretty much straight, rolling slightly in if anything. According to the fitprint thingy I carry 53% of my weight on my right foot. I also have a bunion on the right foot (runs in the family). Looking at the wear pattern on my normal walking shoes the wear is mainly on the ball of the foot (as in the Asics), pretty even on both shoes.

I think I'll go and have another chat to the guy at running science. He seemed to think it was ok for me to do all my running in the frees now (I've built up gradually over the last 4-5 weeks, longest run I've done in them so far was 7km around the bay). My knees are good, I haven't had any problems with them.

Thanks again for all your helpful comments. I really appreciate it!

Fit print isnt all that it is cracked up to be. It is a tool to aid shoe selection. Great if you want a walking shoe, not so great if you need a runner and the two have large differences biomech wise. A store that can video on a tredmill is the way to go. Or a store that will fit print you, look at your feet, your old shoes (sometimes a poor indication) and the way you walk/run is the store you need to be.

People are going nuts and putting people in motion control shoes when they roll in. You're meant to pronate to a certain degree. There is also a study I have read recently that Nike love to bits that says something like 80% of the running population should be in neutral shoes or Nike Free like shoes. your body will adapt. Just like it does for those who have one leg shorter/longer than the others.