33 replies to this topic

[coups]

I have run through the outsole of my Creation 8's in double quick time (two months). I am a lateral heel striker and the outsole consists of pads and not a single unit. Once the outsole goes you're down to the wave plate. I bought them hoping to get more mileage from them than the Wave Inspire without success - they are advertised as high mileage trainers Cushioning and uppers still in good nick. Anyone had similar problems?

[Action]

How many km? Two months can be anything from nothing to 900k (my last 2 months - since 15/5 - was 762k)! The soles/heels of all my shoes die long before the uppers - my current weapon of choice are Reebok Premier Road Lites. I have got about 900k out of each pair, 1000 with a judicious dollop of shoe-go. Can you post a piccy of the heel to shoe the wear?

May just be that those shoes and your gait don't go well together - it happens.

[DrJH]

Try running on grass.

[coups]

Can't be exactly sure of the mileage run - would be around 700-800km. My whinge is that they are advertised as high mileage trainers and I will easily run that distance in the Wave Inspires (I have had 3 pairs). Over the past 20 years I usually replace my shoes twice at most three times a year and have used mostly Asics. Switched to Mizuno in early 2006 and they work well for me. Usually I turf the shoes out when the midsoles start to collapse and lose their cushioning, not because I've run through the outsole. The creations just need a better heel plug and they will be fine for many more months - I will attempt to resurrect them with goo. Sorry I can't post a photo.
DrJH - I'd love to run on grass but the drought here is so severe I'd long-jumping from tuft to tuft!

[Steve 'The Footman']

The high mileage tag is to do with the cushioning not the outsole wear. Very few people wear out the outsoles before the midsole is gone. These days it requires a real scrapping of the outsole on the ground which can occur if there is a scuffing on contact rather than a firm strike. Different shoes with different outsole configurations and heel height to forefoot height differentials could make a difference but that is unlikely to have anything to do with how much they cost. You could always go to a shoe repair place and get the outsole replaced when it is worn through to the midsole.

[coups]

Steve-thanks - good to get a response from you since I purchased my Creations from Intraining! You are aware of course that the 'midsole' consists of two plates connected by rubber pads and no eva in the heel. The outsole also is not one unit but 4 pads glued to the bottom plate. Perhaps a sole could be attached but the plastic recesses for the pads woud have to be ground off. I love the shoes but will be looking at another model in future. I still reckon the x10 material is too soft for the outsole of this shoe.

[DrJH]

Does that mean they're wearing out on dirt?

[coups]

Dr JH - no bitumen.

[chilliman]

coups, on Jul 15 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

Can't be exactly sure of the mileage run - would be around 700-800km. My whinge is that they are advertised as high mileage trainers

As a long time mizuno wearer (8yrs), one thing I do not buy mizunos for is longevity. You are lucky to get 7-800km from them, I usually get 5-600k from Riders but have run in the Creations also. I do a fair bit of off road running too. Currently running in Rider 10's and about to buy another pair after only 3 months of run usage, I do love them. Haven't run in the Creations since v6.

Think it is a compromise, I prefer the lighter weight over what may other wise be heavier materials to get extra lifespan.


Edit: I do love the lightweight Wave Precisions on trails, but I do find the mesh material tears fairly easily on really rough terrain. But use lightweight trail shoes now for these tracks.

Edited by chilliman, 17 July 2007 - 10:44 AM.

[Sunset]

I was under the impression that you should get new shoes when they have clocked up around 700-800km?

[kazz]

Chilliman, The Wave Ascend is a great Mizuno trail shoe, nice and light weight but not as meshie as the Precision (which I also have for the occasional road running).

kazz.

[chilliman]

kazz, on Jul 17 2007, 11:12 AM, said:

Chilliman, The Wave Ascend is a great Mizuno trail shoe, nice and light weight but not as meshie as the Precision (which I also have for the occasional road running).

kazz.

Thanks Kazz, I have been on the lookout for them in Melbourne, but my usual Mizuno outlet doesn't stock any trail shoes

[kazz]

Same up here , the local sportstore said they'd order them in but I've found it easier to buy them from U.S. ebay..., current models at less than half the Au price including postage, if you know your size and model!! Gotta love the Aussie dollar at the moment

kazz.

[Beki]

I find Chilli's comment about longevity interesting - I have two pairs of Wave Inspires which I absolutely adore. However, they are so soft that I often wonder how much wear I am going to get out of them

One pair has only about 350k in them but I'm already worried that they may be on the way out - can anyone give me an indication of what would be the tell-tale signs? I've actually been avoiding them in favour of my sturdier Brooks but perhaps should take them for a spin today as an assessment...

[Duffman]

...how tops is shoe goo. i only discovered its true ability when i saw the artistic work of a DIY customer the other day. makeshift tread lines and everything
I think the heel wear would have occured regardless of the the outersole durability. The creation 8s have quite a high heel and as steve said, it might cause some to scuff the ground. You can use any density or compound of rubber u like but if you shear it enough times with sufficient force on an abrasive surface, it will wear out pretty quick.
Ive found that with my creation 8s I keep hitting my ankles with the hard plastic wave plates (not very often, but it hurts more than it sounds). I think proprioception in the shoe is affected by the combination of its heel height, responsiveness and wave plate firmness in the absence of EVA cushioning. Aside from this Ive found them to be great, with no problems regarding outer sole durability as of yet.
Have you tried the wave riders? They are also a firm neutral shoe with a high density carbon rubber heel but have a lower heel to forefoot ratio, and a softer, EVA midsole.

Beki,
You should get more than 350km from your inspires, especially if they are used in rotation. Generally up to around 1000k, 12 months, or onset of foot/leg pain from shoes and its definately time to replace your shoes.
You can check a few different things to make sure they are ok:
Outersole
The most obvious sign of shoe wear if worn through but not always a reliable indication.
Midsole
--The initial and most significant structure to deform-- Look for areas of excessive creasing, and check the EVA integrity by applying pressure with your thumb and observing the amount of resistance in different places. Generally in areas excessively exposed to repetitive high forces (primarily the forefoot under the ball and lateral heel) the EVA will be compacted and unable to effectively attenuate shock.
Upper
The upper will stretch after extended use, which will affect the stucture and stability of the shoe. Check the firmness of fitting around the arch, the heel counter and forefoot. Holes developing in the heel suggest exessive movement in the shoe and a fit that is no longer supportive of your foot.


DM

[coups]

Duffman and everyone who has contributed - thanks a lot for your valued input. Looks like my biomechanics are incompatible with the Creation - will decide on a suitable replacement for a trainer - still got a new pair of Inspires which I was saving for races only.

[blair]

Duffman, on Jul 19 2007, 02:35 AM, said:

...
You can check a few different things to make sure they are ok:
Outersole
...
Midsole
...
Upper
...

Please forgive a stupid question but what is the outersole/midsole/upper? Also, since I wear orthotics does the same advice apply (I'm assuming the orthotics replace the upper?)?

Thanks

[coups]

Balri - the outsole is the rubber outer of the sole which contacts the road - usually black rubber and durable. The midsole (in most shoes - not the Creation) is the usually white material (usually EVA) which provides the cushioning - some firmer than others - to which the outsole is glued, and the upper is the uppermost part of the shoe covering the top of the foot - usually a few different mesh materials an perhaps leather etc.

[Beki]

Thanks Duffman, I'll check them out. I think it's also because they are so different to my Brooks - the Brooks feel a lot harder whereas the Mizuno's are so flexible in comparison. Even though I rotate my runners I seem to be wearing the Brooks more often so have just gotten used to their feel. Funny as I really wasn't too keen on them to begin with, felt like I was running with bricks on my feet

[blair]

coups, on Jul 21 2007, 02:10 PM, said:

Balri - the outsole is the rubber outer of the sole which contacts the road - usually black rubber and durable. The midsole (in most shoes - not the Creation) is the usually white material (usually EVA) which provides the cushioning - some firmer than others - to which the outsole is glued, and the upper is the uppermost part of the shoe covering the top of the foot - usually a few different mesh materials an perhaps leather etc.

Thanks coups

[Grandpa]

Strange, I thought Mizunos were good for wear. Though, as I have a lot of shoes and favour the Asics, I'm only aware of how quick they wear. And they wear quick! The racers in <200k but the 2120's are good. So it could be the same in the Mizuno range that some are quick to wear out and others are not.

One way to be economical is to use thickly clad outer sole types (plodders) for long, slow runs

Must get some of that shoe goo. Sounds like a good idea

[DECIM8]

A lifetime of a shoe is 1000km, if your close to this then expect to change your shoes very often.

If your looking for a shoe with a high lifetime look at brooks MOGO range the new MOGO midsole (as above not the sole but the white poly ontop of the tread) lasts a expected 33% longer.. i.e 330km

Mizuno is a narrow design like Brooks so id expect no problem you making the conversion, Glycerin is a completely neutral version with MOGO. It wont feel as soft at first but 3 days and you will be shocked how soft they are (they eclipse asics easily)

In regards to the shoe dont forget to take into concideration your weight a shoe like the brooks beast is not designed for a 40kg man, and vice versa a creation is not designed for a 110kg man.

Most serious runners use a series of shoes in a rotating roster to increase the lifetime of shoes. Letting the shoes "rest" gives the shoe time to recoup after being pounded against the ground. A typical shoe takes 72 hours to recover. New shoes such as NB (absorb) Brooks (MOGO) and ASICS (solyte) recover much faster and can be used more often. They also last longer (excluding NB and to some degree asics)

You have to understand to make the shoes softer more air is pumped into the midsole giving more room for the shoe to colapse (seems to be used alot in NB from what I see happen to them) by using a special material to avoid this the midsole will last longer.

Also on the point if you are a midfoot or forefoot runner (typically dancers or swimmers) you will wear the shoe faster in this area. A typical person who goes through the whole gait cycle evenly will wear the shoe evenly.

If you are a forefoot runner look at the new Infinity (brooks) being released in december this year.

Cheers

Edited by DECIM8, 24 July 2007 - 02:36 PM.

[chilliman]

DECIM8, on Jul 24 2007, 01:15 PM, said:

If your looking for a shoe with a high lifetime look at brooks MOGO range the new MOGO midsole (as above not the sole but the white poly ontop of the tread) lasts a expected 33% longer.. i.e 330km

Mizuno is a narrow design like Brooks so id expect no problem you making the conversion,

Do you get a better commission selling Brooks DECIM8 ?

I actually find the standard Mizuno fit not narrow at all in comparison to other shoes I've tried over the years.

DECIM8 said:

A lifetime of a shoe is 1000km

Can I bring 20 pairs back under warranty

Edited by chilliman, 24 July 2007 - 04:39 PM.

[DECIM8]

If its a legitimate claim i.e toe box stitching or eyelets etc then thats fine however - gotta have receipts

And no dont get any commision, would make life alot easier though.

In regards to mizuno they are quite narrow in comparision to other brands, similar to a D width fitting for men, womens even more so (built on a womens last - for women [not many people do that])

Dependent on the shoe though, for instance the wave Nivarna is a wider shoe, straight last (for flatter foot) designed for heavy o/p so obviously makes sence to make it a wider shoe. However a shoe like inspire or creation is not so.

I get to try on shoes all day so its more noticable to me, and also the rep tells me so.

Edited by DECIM8, 24 July 2007 - 05:01 PM.

[coups]

Thanks Decim8 for the tips. My whinge regarding the Creations is that they are advertised as high mileage trainers and I would say they have been the quickest shoe I have ever run through the outsole (20 years and excess of 50 000km of running). With the shoe not having a midsole as per the average trainers as soon as the outsole is worn - you're into the plastic plate.I weigh 70kg and I am a lateral heel striker. The outsole under tthe forefoot is practically new still. Hard to describe but the outsole rubber in the heel looks porous and grainy. Anyway - I have bogged them up with Spred Sole and will keep doing so as the cushioning and the rest of the shoes are fine.

[DECIM8]

No problem coups.. I have to say with your weight a find little reason for the shoe to be falling apart so soon.

I would contact mizuno for a exhange.

I will let you on a little secret in the industry though. Mizuno is concidering putting a warranty on the wave plate in the creation as the shoe has NO returns.

I have to say thats a confident warranty as not many companys even concider it. Perhaps you got a dodgy one as sometimes can happen.

Take it easy with shoe goo stuff (I assume what you have used is similar) I is similar to a two part eproxy which when hardens can cause a slippery surface.

Just keep in mind also treadmills will also increase wear on the shoe. And also a mild pronator or higher will wear out the sole at a faster rate too? Perhaps your foot is beginning to pronate?

Just throwing suggestions your way, but like I said Mizuno may help you out. I will pass your problem onto the reps for you and contact you if I have anything they can do.

Goodluck

[coups]

DECIM8 - thanks again for the input! I have not used the shoe goo stuff before so thanks for the tip regarding slip. As I live 'outback' QLD - there is nowhere here to get good shoe advice or a large range of shoes - no ways will they let you run in them before purchase.When in Brissie I was recommended the Inspires at Intraining and they work well for me - I discussed changing to the Creation over the phone with them and they advised me that the shoe should work okay - which it does - no injuries of other worries at all other than the heel wear. I don't run on a treadmill and have always been a moderate pronator. Cheers.

[chilliman]

coups, on Jul 24 2007, 09:13 PM, said:

Hard to describe but the outsole rubber in the heel looks porous and grainy.

I see the same problem coups on a number of pairs. Little cracks start appearing and bits sort of tear off. Just thought it was normal wear and tear on the softer foam, not sure if it is eva ?
The harder black layers look fine though with no visible wear, just the white second lower layer.

I have a pair that's covered about 400k in 3 months doing it, but they still feel fine to run in.

Edit: talking about the Riders that is.

Edited by chilliman, 26 July 2007 - 12:12 PM.

[DECIM8]

Guy could you post up pix so I could pass them onto the rep? Is the shoe feel any different or just looks bad?

[Oakley]

Get the place you bought them from to send them back!! Dont say how many k's you have done just say they have only lasted 2 months.

I had said to Mizuno from WC6 they need to NOT have that stupid blown foam sole as it wears out. Mine wore out in 4 months just walking around a shop in them!!!!


Mizuno narrow?? Not really, Nike and Adidas are skinny. Asics, Brooks and Puma are (normal) and NB wide.


As for MOGO. Every show company has their "mogo" Asics have SoLyte, Mizuno have SP1 and Nike have Cushlon. So it isnt anything special or now.

To my knowledge Mizuno dont make womens specific shoes... only Nike do that.

[DECIM8]

Mizuno narrow?? Not really, Nike and Adidas are skinny. Asics, Brooks and Puma are (normal) and NB wide.So a Newbalance 1061 D width mens is a wide fitting? or a Nike Equalon is a narrow fitting? or a 2A adrenaline is a wide fitting? Fine believe what you wish I only fit them day in day out so I must have no idea. Every shoe brand has different size fittings mizuno is a narrow width for men and women.

As for MOGO. Every show company has their "mogo" Asics have SoLyte, Mizuno have SP1 and Nike have Cushlon. So it isnt anything special or now. Mogo is better than most as it lasts longer.. Solyte does not last as long as mogo and colapses on the lateral aspect of the shoe. 90% of the time in under its lifetime. I could list everyones Midsole but It wont do much good, Brooks last longer its the truth.

To my knowledge Mizuno dont make womens specific shoes... only Nike do that. Wrong, mizuno is built on a womens specific last, Ryka is built on a womens specific last, Nike is built on the same last with different features.

For example: Nike structure Triax has a bunion (dynamic fit) material, also has extended posting to the forefoot for later pronation in women, also has a natural motion heel strike crash pad because of the angle women (with wider hips) land on the pad (this reduces pronation)

Not to have a go at you but ive got the facts to back up my statements, you dont.

Edited by DECIM8, 26 July 2007 - 08:39 PM.

[Oakley]

Must be wonderful to think you know everything.

I know the difference between a D and 2E fitting jerk off.

Put on a NB 10.5 in a normal fit, then put on a Mizuno. Mizuno will be tighter. I know, coz I did the exact same thing yesterday with parallel models. Whether or not they 'are' the same width or not isnt the point. They FEEL tighter. Be it through design or, like last season, Mizuno screwed up the sizing by about 1.5 sizes across the board.

Ive done the Nike tech sessions as well, so re telling what the rep told you isnt really showing you actually know anything about shoes. Women also tend to have more flexable forefoots which is why the flex groves are more spaced out etd etc

I stand corrected on Mizuno being non womens fit

My advice is, dont act like you know everything... coz it is then you show how little you actually know.

Edited by Oakley, 26 July 2007 - 09:44 PM.

[chilliman]

DECIM8, on Jul 26 2007, 08:37 PM, said:

Fine believe what you wish I only fit them day in day out so I must have no idea. Every shoe brand has different size fittings mizuno is a narrow width for men and women.

There is a big differencing in fitting and wearing them for hundreds of km's. I have wide feet and find the Mizuno standard width are fine for me. Other brand's standard width are too narrow. But then as you must see day in and day out not all runners feet are identical and what suits one runner will be the complete opposite for another.

Edited by chilliman, 27 July 2007 - 07:45 AM.

[DECIM8]

Oakley, on Jul 26 2007, 09:33 PM, said:

Must be wonderful to think you know everything.

I know the difference between a D and 2E fitting jerk off.

Put on a NB 10.5 in a normal fit, then put on a Mizuno. Mizuno will be tighter. I know, coz I did the exact same thing yesterday with parallel models. Whether or not they 'are' the same width or not isnt the point. They FEEL tighter. Be it through design or, like last season, Mizuno screwed up the sizing by about 1.5 sizes across the board.
Ok im slightly confused my friend, Newbalance use a square toebox (well they did, why they changed is beyond me) to address a wider foot and the square array of toes some people have. Mizuno use less material therefore they feel tighter, yes. That means they are narrower in my mind, If you fit someone who needs a newbalance shoe into a mizuno shoe id expect within a few weeks they would end up with pain or tingling in the foot. Would you not agree?

I think what we are talking about we are both on two different pages in our perception of width. I'm just going to leave it be.

Ive done the Nike tech sessions as well, so re telling what the rep told you isnt really showing you actually know anything about shoes. Women also tend to have more flexable forefoots which is why the flex groves are more spaced out etd etc I'd like to firstly clarify that Nike do change the last for women (only wider in the forefoot narrower in the heel, just like asics does.) Secondly I dont understand your point?

I stand corrected on Mizuno being non womens fit

My advice is, dont act like you know everything... coz it is then you show how little you actually know. My advice to you is dont start a war about nothing, every time you comment I give you fact to back up my claims if you do want to correct me give me supporting document or fact to back it up. I'm not here to piss people off just help. We obviously both work in the shoe industry and I have no doubt we have equal ability to spit out features and how they could work or not. End of the day who really cares.