231 replies to this topic

[formergreat]

I believe it is a very interesting topic to bring up

what is the best way to train your 800m runner? Do you go for a more speed based approach or do you want your runner going for the longer appraoch. I am interested to hear about any other coaches and how they go about training there 800m runners.

[thegreat800]

Our 800m national record is close to 40 years old, is slower than the world youth record (u/18) and 3 seconds off the world record. We have had the ability in the past to produce top class middle distance athletes, what has changed now? It is not as if we are not as talanted as the rest of the world, I believe it may lie in our coaching methods. In Australia, middle distance runners focus heavily on running miles. Does Australia underestimate the value of speed in middle distance running and is this the reason why we are trailing behind in the worlds wake?

[enterthezone]

i am very interested in this topic myself. I began with marathons back in my early days. For the next few years i ran 10km road and 12 km cross country distances. Over the last 8 years i have reduced to 10000 track 5000 track and 1500 track. I am now attempting to run 800m next season. I have found that obviously speed carries greater weight the shorter you go. And for me 800m seems to be about 40% speed work(by this i mean anything above 90% intensity). In addition i have cut mileage to 3 long runs a week- about 18kms all up. I am also experimenting on the athletes i help. Any and all information would be welcomed.

[BH]

thegreat800, on Jul 21 2007, 11:13 PM, said:

Our 800m national record is close to 40 years old, is slower than the world youth record (u/18) and 3 seconds off the world record. We have had the ability in the past to produce top class middle distance athletes, what has changed now? It is not as if we are not as talanted as the rest of the world, I believe it may lie in our coaching methods. In Australia, middle distance runners focus heavily on running miles. Does Australia underestimate the value of speed in middle distance running and is this the reason why we are trailing behind in the worlds wake?

I believe it is because of the split - the split between methods - some train at high intensity but lack the volume t ocompliment it. Others train at high volume, but lack the intense workouts to compliment their stamina. The good runners are doing both, lots of distance and the required high intensity workouts. It's a no brainer - volume does not make you slower no matter how much you do up to the point that it takes away from the time you can spend doing high intensity workouts - so when able - run the high volume. When its time to do the intenisty, make sure you do enough but not too much and make sure you are recovering appropriately.

Aussie runners excluding a few camps e.g. Nic B's, tend to get caught in the headlights and try and justify (read - make excuses) not doing the volume usually by using an obscure scientific veiw of running and physiology. When some realise that volume is essential they shy away from high intensity workouts - who knows why???

[alexrowe]

i believe ppl dont quite understand that the high intensity sessions dont just work speed, but also lactic and speed endurance which are essential for 800m. running lots and lots of miles does get u fit but not the specific fitness needed for 800m. we r only running for 2 mins, 1:50 or 1:45 which isnt a long time. my coach is into this method of training-(lactic, speed, speed endurance and moving efficiently) which has resulted in strong improvements in my short time i have been training.

[saverunning]

the greatest success in the 800m is achieved not primarily through speed training and "teaching" the body to cope with lactic acid buildup (LAB) - it is training the body to deliver oxygen which will defer LAB.

[Jonesy]

Hey - I don't suppose anyone knows of a video of Ralph Doubell's 1968 800m - I believe still the Ausie record?

Remarkable really how we have stood still at that distance while everything around it has moved on. I notice even locally that winning state open and U20 times are no better than in my competitive days of 30 years ago. Very curious. Maybe the Lydiad/Cerruty methods we embraced then were as good as can be got?! 6 - 9 months of marathon type traing with a gradual introduction of serious speed.

Jonesy

[saverunning]

Lydiard was a genius, and i believe the person to have more influence on running than any other. He took a group of good club runners to Olympic gold and world records.
I love the thread i read sometime ago about one of Lydiard's runners being challenged over 800m by an excellent NZ 800m specialist. With 200m to go the 800m runner thought he would "take off" and show the distance runner a thing or two, only to have the Lydiard-trained runner "coast" past him and explode away.
In the 800m correct distance training doesn't reduce your speed, it puts you in a position at the end of the race to use your speed.

Edited by saverunning, 22 July 2007 - 10:22 PM.

[enterthezone]

BH, on Jul 22 2007, 06:58 PM, said:

I believe it is because of the split - the split between methods - some train at high intensity but lack the volume t ocompliment it. Others train at high volume, but lack the intense workouts to compliment their stamina. The good runners are doing both, lots of distance and the required high intensity workouts. It's a no brainer - volume does not make you slower no matter how much you do up to the point that it takes away from the time you can spend doing high intensity workouts - so when able - run the high volume. When its time to do the intenisty, make sure you do enough but not too much and make sure you are recovering appropriately.

Aussie runners excluding a few camps e.g. Nic B's, tend to get caught in the headlights and try and justify (read - make excuses) not doing the volume usually by using an obscure scientific veiw of running and physiology. When some realise that volume is essential they shy away from high intensity workouts - who knows why???

Sorry i am confused about this statement - what are these two methods you mention? What is the correct relationship between volume and intensity? We are talking about 800m though and this Nik B (i had to ask around) coaches 5km runners so not really relevant; of course there is more volume in 5000m training than 800m training.

Is my confusion mirroring the general Aussie distance running/coaching fraternity. Still looking for some good rational information???

[enterthezone]

Saverunning ... hi!

I like the idea that sufficient longer running will enable speed to be utilised at the end of a race. However, which is more effective for a teenager - 8x3 min reps off 1 min recovery or 30 mins contunuous running? Also which one is more effective for the 800m? Is long steady running necessary at all except for recovery sessions?

Sprint coaches develop the speed qualities of their athletes. It seems strange to think that in the 800m speed isnt developed - its just an add-on, something to tune up during competition phase.

A top 800m surely requires a 45 point 400m a sub 22 200m and a sub 11 100m. What are kipketers bests,? Coe? Juantorena?, Cruz?

thanks

Edited by enterthezone, 22 July 2007 - 10:48 PM.

[Sparkie]

OK - radical theory here, but there has to be something behind it, and anyone looking to investigate the 800m should maybe look into this.

The 800m is the only track event where white guys are numerically competitive (the last three Olympic champs have been white guys - not to mention Andre Bucher). 18 different runners make up the all-time top 50 - 7 are white. No other event comes close to this sort of representation (400m - 1, 1500m - 1, 5000m - 0).

Sprinters are almost exclusively of West African descendancy. Distance runners Eastern and Northern African (yes Colin - South Africa has produced a couple...). So whatever genetic reason there is for this (and the numbers are so overwhelming as to make any other explanation untenable), this could have something to do with it. On a simplistic case, let's say that there is one speed gene and one endurance gene, and its size determines the ability in this area (before anyone argues - I am well aware that this is not how genetics works). A big speed gene prevents the size that the endurance gene grows to, and vice versa. So athletes with a big endurance gene, can't develop a big enough speed gene, and vice versa. It is the athlete with the medium sized speed gene and medium sized endurance gene that will do best, and this means it will be drawn from a genetic pool that is not dominant in either sprinting or endurance.

As I said this is a major simplification. Worth noting is that of the Africans in the list, all are from countries that produce strong distance runners (Kenya predominantly, but also South Africa and Burundi). 7 are Kenyans (counting Kipketer as Kenyan), however, there are NO Ethiopians in the top list at all (it goes to 1556), let alone the top 50. By comparison there are 7 Ethiopians in the top 50 10,000m times (15 Kenyans).

So it would appear from the Kenyan presence in this list that endurance is more important than speed (for those seeking a guide to training), particularly as Kenya has only produced one 400m runner of note (Samson Kitur).

From a personal perspective, my best event is 800m (although my PB of 1:54 is hardly phenomenal). I have beaten guys that can blow me away over 400m or 1500m (not both) - seriously competitive athletes at these distances, but not able to make the move up or down one distance. I am neither a great distance runner or a great sprinter, but competent at both, and punch well above my weight over 800m.

[FreeDickland]

Will not even try to give answers to a question which has been my major interest/focus/priority ever since it was 880yards - but can suggest several sources of information which should be helpful -

The first is that a visit to the Glenhuntly website is essential - there is a good section on training which includes several items relevant to this question; an item specifically on 800 training; a review of Arthur Lydiards ideas (still more than up to date) and other pieces that, whilst not specific to the 800 do provide good fill in information.

Secondly there are Peter Coe's books on Middle Distance (not deliberate capitalization) training which cover physiology as well as training very well.

Thirdly - if you can find them any of Brian Lenton's of interviews with distance runners - these include ralph Doubell, Herb Elliott etc., etc., and provide useful insights to their training - one exception (unless I have missed it) is Tony Blue, the only person to have beaten both Herb Elliott and peter Snell, ran under 1.48 on grass tracks numerous times, Comm games Bronze and ran on an almost exclusive diet of repetition 400s.

Also of interest would be (very hard to find) the How they Train books edited by Fred Wilt - published in the late 50's early 60's which include such runners as Rudolf Harbig (coached on lines similar to Percy Cerrutty in the 1930s and quite possibly one of potential super greats).

Any of Arthur Lydiards books - interesting to note that he pays credit to the coaching of an English runner (name temporarily escapes me) who won Olympic gold pre WW2 in a exceptional time on almost no - by current standards - training which despite low quantity did fit closely to Lydiard templates and i snot dissimilar to those outlined by Peter Coe. This training is described - together with items on such runners as Lord Burghly and harold Abrahmas in a book on the Achilles (ie., Oxford - Cambridge) Club - again not able to recall the authors name (th ebook is in Australia & I am in Canada).

Franz Stamfl's book is also interesting as is anything by Percy Cerruty.

Looking forward to reading further posts on this topic.

[dcl]

The latest edition of RFYL has an interesting interview with Ralph Doubell where he gives his thoughts about what is wrong with 800m running in Australia.

He's of the opinion that many 800m specialists in this country do insufficient high volume base training and instead wrongly emphasise a year round high intensity approach.

[enterthezone]

this is fantastic, thanks for all the great info. I have one point to make so far ... this intensity that is being talked about needs some clarification. Intense training is what? above 90% 85% 95%. One of these. And this is fine except for a speed athlete it is not about these percentages but about trying to move your 100% to 101%, which then becomes your new 100%. Intensity for a sprinter or jumper is a different thing than for a middle distance runner i believe. Possibly taking the idea of 101% from the speed athletes and applying it to middle distance where is is unknown, could be a very handy approach.

Edited by enterthezone, 23 July 2007 - 12:26 PM.

[BH]

enterthezone, on Jul 22 2007, 08:25 PM, said:

this is fantastic, thanks for all the great info. I have one point to make so far ... this intensity that is being talked about needs some clarification. Intense training is what? above 90% 85% 95%. One of these. And this is fine except for a speed athlete it is not about these percentages but about trying to move your 100% to 101%, which then becomes your new 100%. Intensity for a sprinter or jumper is a different thing than for a middle distance runner i believe. Possibly taking the idea of 101% from the speed athletes and applying it to middle distance where is is unknown, could be a very handy approach.

In response to earlier question re the split, as it has been noted by Ralph Doubell, the current Aussie 800m Record Holder, many of the potential 800m runners don't do enough volume. About 20 to 30 weeks of the year an 800m runner should run 140 to 160k's. Most of that during the off season - or the Cross Country period some call it, when the 800m runner still races but not on the track.

High Intensity for a track runner is best thought of in terms of race pace - so for an 800m runner they might have 4 high intensity workouts a week - although only 2 are really taxing -

1. The pure speed development, some 50 to 100m sprints and sprint drills, this is not really that taxing.
2. An 800m workout, say a total of 2 to 3 times race distance (1600m to 2400m) or race pace workouts. An example workout could be 2 sets of 4 x 200m at 800m pace with ~30 seconds recovery between repeats and ~5 to 10 minutes recovery between sets. There are stacks of way you can mix it around.
3. A 3/5k workout, something like 13 x 200m at 3k pace with a brisk 200m recovery
4. A race - not that taxing.

Given that no Australian distance running coach has improved upon the results of the coaches that others mention here such as Lydiard, Cerutty etc without following similar methods then the books writen by those chaps is a good place to start. Personally i find the benson book Run with the Best to be the best modern book, but as the author credits - many of the principles come from Lydaird and Cerutty. see www.benson.com.au

Also Nic Bideau has and does coach runners from 400m throug to Marathon, I think he currently coaches Great Britians number 1 or 2 ranked 800m female. As he admits freely, apart from using modern technological aids such as HR monitors and ice baths, all he has done is taken the successful systems of those great coaches from yester year and followed them. I have an interview somewhere (I wll try and find it) where he states that all you need to know about running successfully can be gained from reading 3 books and I am confident he is referring to at least Lydaird and I think Benson as two of them.

On another point, some people talk about athletes who run exclusively 400 repeats or interval workouts. You have to look at the program in its totality. I can run 400m repeats and still run 160k per week. Some Africans run 40 x 400m in a workout! The total volume of the program may still be a lot even though someone runs a lot on a track.

Where the Aussie low volume/high intensity athletes have gone wrong is they don't run enough repeats at high intensity - also they can often not run enough repeats at high intensity as they are not physically capable of it as they don't have enough stamina as they haven't done enough running at low intensity.

Edit - found this - have not read it all yet - but FYI
http://runtrails.org/wp-content/uploads/20...uoncoaching.pdf

Edited by BH, 23 July 2007 - 04:53 PM.

[Jonesy]

Books - I read and re-read Cerruty's 'Middle Distance Running' through the 70's - fantastic stuff. Also (on topic), there is a chapter by Ralph Doubell in a 60's or 70's book called 'Athletics the Australian Way'. His chapter is something like 'Gold Medal Day' - brilliant stuff - I'd love to find a copy of that book again.

No ideas out there on accessing a video of Doubell's win in '68? What is amazing is that there are only 3 Aussie track gold medal wins for men - ever! And I guess you can hardly count Flack.

Back to 800's - they are so very fast about 12.7 per 100 at WR pace I think. That means you need great natural speed plus buckets of km in your legs to carry you the distance.

Jonesy

[lebusqp]

Peter Bourke ran 1.44.78 to just miss Doubell's AR in 82 winning gold at the CG.
Bourke was at the time coached by Doubell's coach Stampfl.
Bourke's winter training consisted of 8km morning runs and bulk repetition runs or fartlek in the evening. He mentions 5x800m in 2mins as a fave winter workout.
Summer training appeared to be very much more speed orientated with lots of time trials and shorter faster reps. He mentions 4x400m in sub 50secs as a fave summer session.

[Rudolf]

I am very familiar with Jarmila Kratochvila and her training. This was discussed previously on this forum, topic is not new.

Kratochvilova never trained as 800m, she always trained as 200m specialist with the attitude that for big ones (olympics, worlds etc, the focus will shift to 400m.

She only ran 800 by accident, when setting WR.

On the evening after she set that WR, the coach was contemplaiting and said - I failed as coach, I was trying to prepare fastest possible 100/200 runer with ability to occqasionaly run extremely good 400. I failed, since the 100m time was not progressing, and now this 800m WR, there is something I am doing wrong here.

[Mars]

I reckon the way Lydiard trained Snell is the best way.

He got him to a 1:44 on grass and two Olympic Gold.

Could run a decent mile also.

Cheers,

Mars.

[enterthezone]

go lydiard - does anyone know anyone else who knew lydiard personally? Some of that level of info would be fantastic. What about cerutty or stampfl? Anyone know these characters personally?

Rudolph, can you point me in the direction of this stuff from Kratochvilova and her coach please

cheers

keep on the quest for the zone...........

Edited by enterthezone, 24 July 2007 - 11:51 AM.

[HillsAths1]

Was Seb Coe's dad a genius coach, or was was he a Dad who had a son who could run fast?

Does having one athlete who can run fast, make you a great coach?

[Sparkie]

OK - I'll be controversial again - can anyone name another top 800m runner coached by Lydiard? Can anyone name a top 800m runner that did the same mileage as Snell? I actually think Lydiard's methods are solid, but he appeared to have just as much difficulty as anyone repeating the success he had with Snell.

[Mars]

Not sure Sparkie, but if they couldn't break 23s on grass for 200m, Arthur would steer them to train for longer events like 1500 or the 5000 or 10,000 or marathon, depending on their speed and build.

I do know however, that Harry Wilson had Ovett doing in excess of 200km per week in winter base building months.

Regards, Mars

Edited by Mars, 24 July 2007 - 05:45 PM.

[HillsAths1]

As a summary for those who have missed out on the topic so far and want the readers digest version.
To be successful over 800m
1.you need to able to run 200m pretty fast
2. You need to be able to do a lot of base mileage
3. It helps if you have a single minded coach(see Coe/Lydiard etc)

Hope that helps everyone out.

[Rudolf]

enterthezone, on Jul 24 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

Rudolph, can you point me in the direction of this stuff from Kratochvilova and her coach please

the chance is very slim. The name of the coach is Kvac, so You can try searches in seconhand type internet bookstores etc, for the authors name Kvac or/and Kratochvilova.

The wrote the book together, I do not remeber the name of the book.
I do not have the book any longer since I did not bring too many books with me, and the books left with my parents were later given away....

The book was published in Czech rep in czech language and I am not aware ofany translation into other languages.

You would certainly be able to get copy somehow in Czech rep, but what about language ?


However : one year, the Coach, Kratochvilova and few other athlets of teh group were invited to USA during winter months to train in warmer California ( I think ?) in the arrangement that it is paid for them however the coach would give lectures to US coaches, and every training session be done in front of US coaches and with participation of US athelets - female sprinters and 400m .

So perhaps there were some articles or studies writen by americans from this training camp and could be accesible in some athletic association library etc.


Another hint could be teh fact, that to access the general principles of 200/400m training in countries like east germany, poland, russia etc from that era, there could be publication in german language which could be usable or their english translations, to see the train9inh of Marita Koch would be equaly interesting.
At the time there was quite a rivalry between countries of eastren block, so Kvac had no idea what Koch was doing etc.

However Kvac did not invented anything revolutionary he was ordinary sprinting coach who learned the training principles form that days generaly accepted methods, he was perhaps applying them more masterfully in a sence that he was administering the training loads just on the line of breaking the athlet.

The refernce from that american training camp was , that none of american fenmale runner did believe that female could survive such a load and they all refuse it, but somehow the culture changed and they accepted the harder work.

To sum it up, the traing for 200m, but pushing the intensity and pushing the volume, often 2x a day hard sprint session,
lots of weight and dynamic power stuff, overthe speed sessions,, and sprint with resistance, all winter it was in forest on 200m sligh incline hill, incline was even, and the hill was only such, that the running style did not change but the incline was forcing for more agresive muscle actions. If You repeat this 5x a week, for 5 months, thats the winter base.
The forrest uphill 200m was exactle measured distance and was timed by stopwatch every rep.

They build little room at the track, and Kratochvilova would do morning session, than sleep there in her private room, and do afternoon session.

This overload of sprint training was reason in my mind, that the 100m performance was not improving, but it gave huge endurance of the 200m speed, so she was able to keep 200m max speed regardles how tired she was, so could repeat it 2x at 400m race in row, and in 800m when she was allowed to jog 600m with the pack at much lower speed, than she easily run the last 200m.

So to sdum it up, the 200m is crucial, but thats not enough, it is the ability to run that 200m speed while tired, while in oxygen debt, while muscles stif or shaky etc, it is that build up resistance to fatique at the 200m speed, which they built by running 200m in hardened condition repeatedly at the near max speed.

[Sparkie]

Keep in mind that Krachtolivich was drugged to the eyeballs, and could only tolerate this workload because of the amount of steroids she took... Drugs don't make you run faster, they allow you to train harder. Clean (or cleaner) athletes than her would most likely have been broken by such a regime...

This doesn't change the theory, but does impact the application...

[Rudolf]

yep, agree with have been on this before, however lots of athletes were using the same pils and same dossage (and still do), but nobody got close to that WR

[Sparkie]

Quote

but nobody got close to that WR

Actually, Krachtolovich only broke the previous record by 15 hundredths of a second... but after this it is daylight...

[enterthezone]

this is all awesome so i'm now going to weigh in with an opinion to see some responses.

I am of the firm belief that speed is still being undervalued in the 800m. Whatever the particulars of Kratochvilova's situation the fact remains that the women's world record was created by sprint training methods in a high volume program. I'm going to assume the high volume was done with a lot of intensity. Specificity is one of the unbreakable rules of training and we are talking about the precision system of Germany in the 70-80s.

What i believe Lydiard may have missed out on was some more refined training science from the soviet and eastern european countries (although no doubt they were on this track anyway to a level). These refinements took place because of the systems that were in place over there at the time. Literally thousands of scientists, coaches and athletes were testing and refining training methods all over these countries. They came to similar conclusions about most things and these have become the training methods we follow today. One of these things is that training capacity can be accelerated by following a cycling method of training when at one point in the cycle maximum volume is reached and at another maximum intensity is reached. It is the optimal movement from one to the other that is sought as an ideal for training. How long do you load up for and then how long do you let the pressure off for. Most coaches under drugs systems opted for 4 week cycles with 3 heavy and one lighter. Most coaches who have adapted this approach in non-drug systems use a 3 week cycle of 2 heavier and one lighter. I find in distance running this is not often a considered part of training whereas mostly in speed and power events coaches follow it closely. An important factor i think to consider.

There seems to be something missing in middle distance training methods that isn't missing in speed and power event methods. Kratochvilova hints at the possibility of this. But what is it? I'm thinking it is an undeveloped understanding of the speed and power side of our sport within middle distance coaching ... an almost cultural lack.

Please critique or comment

Edited by enterthezone, 25 July 2007 - 07:49 PM.

[pheidippides]

re.speed training for 800 metres,middle & long distance, contact Frank Horwill
via the Serpentine Running Club.London. Frank is a mine of information.Good luck,Pheidippides.

[saverunning]

Sparkie,
Yes Lydiard did coach other 800m athletes - Lorraine Moller ran 2.03 as a 17yo. Her long run on the weekend was 30-35kms. She set a NZ record for 1500m and medaled twice at Commonwealth Games (track) some years later as a marathon runner.

[hungry4it]

Sorry haven't read all the replies in a terrible rush, but to me I grew up in the era of Seb Coe, Steve Ovett and Steve Cram what a trio. Hasn't Peter Coe (Seb's coach and dad written a book on training), and lets not forget the fantastic dame Kelly Holmes. I love to think I'm her as I fly!!!! around the 800m track flicking my left foot out as she did (does).

Anyway point is they all had (esp seb coe) a killer last 70metre. Totally anaerobic. This is definately what lets me down. No amount of sprint training can give me the killer kick at the end of an 800m that my best friend and rival has. Although I've got her on fitness (aerobic capicity. As I run a 5km 2 mins faster) she can run a 100m in 13sec. I'm 16. (We are both 40 year old female).

The 800m (thankfully is the only area we cross). She is a total sprint, hurdle, high jump, long jump whizz ( she's pretty good at Javelin & discus to of course she holds state records in her age group in most of these events) again we are talking somebody anaerobic. Me, well I love 800m but my strengths 2km steeple chase ( did it once my friend thought it would suit me and I broke the state record), I am not a sprinter and find 3km's, 5km's really hard, 10kms I can't pace, !/2 marathons definately my thing as marathons will be (Done one loved it)

Ok we are not elite by any means but it's as clear as clear if my friend improved her aerobic capacity she'd get me every time. This girl can do a 400m 10secs quicker than me but yet on an 800m if I've got 20m on her with 70m to go she can't catch me. Despite the kick she has because she doesn't have the aerobic capacity to stay with me through the 1st 730m (Despite her having a far quicker 400m, but I always lead and win from the front). Last race she broke my record probably because for the 1st time ever she was doing aerobic runs of 1hour duration (and feels her sprinting is slowing) and wants to concentrate on 400m hurdles and 800m. Rather than 100m and 200m.

In any 800m she has also proved the psychological factor although she is the superior runner (over 800m) she has never beaten me when I have run against her but that's when I've broken her/my record She's my mate but I just must beat her. All her records have been when I've not been running.

Matola and Holmes lives on. (I wonder when Holmes decided she would beat Matola!!! as it's in the mind)

She currently holds the club record (2.40 remember we are 40 year old females)

It's without a doubt a real combination of aerobic/anaerobic but added in your either fast twitch or your not. I'm not. She is. Can I make a 2.39 definately.

I am sure your answer is in here somewhere.

I'm so interested in all the replies on this thread for obvious reasons but work beckons.

[Rudolf]

well 16 secs for 100m is the answer and the reason.

It is too slow and it is a limiting factor.

It is a question of personal priorities.

You either decide to train like sprinter with plenty of intense work and plenty of rest - which means You cant deplete and tire body on the long runs and high weekly kms,

or You decide that halmarathons and marathons is Your hobby, and stick with it, and use racing 800m at slower times
just as speed challenge for marathon legs, and disregard the 800m performance level.

Sitting on 2 chairs is not comfortable and not safe, as the chairs can move apart, Your bum can crack.

[HillsAths1]

One of the concerns I have with the US system, the East European system etc and some of the local methods is that too often it is treated as a sausage factory. Where you start with a number of talented athletes and push them in training to get the required results, some may be suited to the hard work others will end up as injured wrecks never to run again.
I have seen this over and over again where coaches who know best push athletes beyond what they are capable of with little regard for the long term good of the athlete.
In Australia we do not have the quantity of talented athletes where we can just flog them in the off chance that we can get a couple of good results.

[Rudolf]

HillsAths1, on Jul 26 2007, 09:13 AM, said:

One of the concerns I have with the US system, the East European system etc and some of the local methods is that too often it is treated as a sausage factory. Where you start with a number of talented athletes and push them in training to get the required results, some may be suited to the hard work others will end up as injured wrecks never to run again.
I have seen this over and over again where coaches who know best push athletes beyond what they are capable of with little regard for the long term good of the athlete.
In Australia we do not have the quantity of talented athletes where we can just flog them in the off chance that we can get a couple of good results.

Yeah, I know few coaches back from my country and from few decades abck, who made their life carrer from this philosophy -
give me 100 talented runners, I will expose them to extremely hard work, the same for everyone. They will start cracking 1 by one. After 2 years I would be left with group of say about 10 of them. Then I will reinforce extremely intense and high volume training regime.
1 of them will survive and reach international; level and perhaps medal at olympic, from the group of remaining 9, perhaps 2 will halfsurvive and in between ilnesses and injuries still become valuable for the national team say as members of 4x400m, or as backup runners for teams comp, etc, when 3 or more runners are needed for the team at longer distances.

But the one who survived my methods and the methods were tuned for him in later stages, so did not suit the rest of the group - but this one achieving the medal for the country, will give me payrise and the status, will give me permanenst position in sport institute etc.

I created a medal, nobody cares that I created 99 criples along the way.

ps some Czech athlets - mostly weightlifters from that era are suing coaches and organizations for permanent health damage, although it is mainly to forced steroid use related.

[FreeDickland]

What a wonderful discussion.

Training for the 800 is certainly a tightrope walking exercise - balance spped work againt endurance against power work - different answers for each runner - a true experiment of one.

What ever your background strengths you have to set up an individual approach - the runner coming from sprint direction has different strengths to the runner coming from endurance background ( refer to the Glenhuntly site for British Milers Club report on training for 800 - president at the time being Peter Coe)

Then you have to choose between strengthening your strengths or strengenthening your less strong attributes - very difficult - from personal perspective endurance was never strength and speed was close to a strength - and then there are those runners who can run superb 800s but are no where near that standard at any other distance.

Which ever way you choose you must be prepared for two things - hard work first second and every other position. I recall reading an item in 1990 in England comparing Coe & Ovett's training regimes - Coe having more cross country background at younger ages and Ovett having great sprint results when under age. Both worked incredibly hard - eg., Coe doing timed 10 mile runs in around 50 minutes on winte roroads around Sheffield - doing 5 of these in between 4.10 and 4.15 with the recovery miles in between in under 6 minutes - - and track sessions including rep 400s in less tha 50 secs (a la Stampfl) but with almost complete recovery between; rep 200s in average of 23 with running start & run across track "recovery" - Ovetts work similarly ardouous but slightly different balance - this last statement being made with full recognition that the sessions mentioned may not be regular sessions, may have been embellished for the article etc. etc. etc.

Irrespective the second thing to be prepared for is making mistakes - keep monitoring how things are going and be ready to admit that it may not be working welland maitnatin a flexible enough attitude to change your approach - and training program.

Keep thinking as well as running - one without the other gets you less far slower.

Have already gone on for too long and will reserve my observations on North American system for a later date - but will state here that it just aint working for either runners or running.

[enterthezone]

hi Freedickland

I'm enjoying this tightrope

please put forward your views on the US system.

Edited by enterthezone, 26 July 2007 - 05:54 PM.

[saverunning]

To return momentarily to the original post "What is the best way to train your 800m runner?" I believe that you should train a runner using the teenage years not as an end to themselves, not to chase "tin-pot" medals - but as a giant base so that the runner's body can cope with the "real training" when it starts at around 20yrs of age. There are many factors in building this base, but leg strength is critical. To maintain correct knee lift, stride length and cadence (in order to maintain speed) requires enormous leg strength (have a look at Mottram's stride), which takes many years to develop.

Some common threads - Juantorena participated in many sports (incl swimming) through high school - until the day he showed up for track dressed in his basketball kit. The coach said he "just wanted to see his form" - well he ran a 500m time trial in 1.07.

Seb Coe - his father's programme "built up strength and stamina...so he could handle the speedwork"
Coe did multiple hill sprints and developed great strength and form.

Moving up in dist a bit - de Castella started running in primary school and played AFL. He wasn't doing serious racing at 12yrs old or 14yrs old. He did steady consistent training and developed incredible leg strength. At age 17 he had broken several Aust junior records.

Finally Barrios - not much training at high school peak of 80kms pw. Of his training he said (when 18yrs old) "I was training once per day...I don't think one can handle the mileage". At age 23 he started the REAL training. Totally unknown he borrowed a few hundred dollars and flew to a big US race and ran a WR 27.41 - he then won 13 of 14 races (only beaten in marathon with no specific training) later WR for 10,000m.

Well, so what. The game is not winning age medals or breaking age records. Not the parents nor the coaches can hold their nerve - they see a bit of talent, they see a pair of aces and fall over themselves to win the small pot. They train and race the pants off these kids and they can then NEVER realise their full potential. The Eastern Bloc coaches tried this already - you get child champions who stagnate always. I know all the young kids doing doubles and over 100k's and they win State by a margin. But I ask you, where are they when they are 18?

Enough ranting. So how to train your 800m runner? Don't go to training sessions wanting young kids to produce some magical time for that 400m that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. Sit on those aces, put them to sleep for a while and hold your nerve.

Edited by saverunning, 26 July 2007 - 11:11 PM.

[enterthezone]

saverunning i like what you are saying here. It is a bit different from what you were saying in the post next to this one - online coach. In that post you supported BH for attacking me for advising meaghan to take it easy as she was 14 and had many years ahead. Don't burnout. To exemplify i painted a picture of a 15 year olds training. Details of the sessions were not given so volumes cannot be determined by yourself or BH, yet he attacked my approach saying 'this is why we don't get good middle distance runners in this country'. You supported him.

Are you just argumentative or are you really on my side? Do you agree with long term development as the priority over short term. Or with a progressive buildup of training volume ie increasing from 2 to 4 days a week over the first year like i stated. Or keeping variety in the teenagers life with continuing other sports like mentioned the 15 year old did. Or balance a word you used that is at the heart of my philosophy. Balance of all things with the focus on the 800m. Balance of speed, strength, endurance, power and flexibility and their combinations appropriate for the event chosen.

I think we may be close in our ways of thinking. Where it may differ is with the exact nature of the relationship necessary for the 800m between volume and intensity. I believe the intensity factor is a lot higher than people are willing to believe. The strong resistance to this idea i have experienced leads me to feel quite strongly there is a bias within distance running against speed. I believe the 800m is closely related to the 400m and less so to the 1500m. If i am correct in this assumption then it may be logical to assume that 800m training is quite similar to training for the 400m. Of course it is also next to the 1500m so has similarity to that event also. Which is it closer to? It's closest cousin is the 400 hurdles at 47 seconds to 101 seconds for the 800m whereas the 1500m is 206. Must keep thinking, however, I already think 100 seconds can be broken by the next generation through superior speed development. 99 seconds could be 48 then 51. A 48 first lap would require a low 45 pb which would require mid 21 pb which would require sub 11 from blocks. This would require high speed of course, speed developed from the beginning of the running career i would think. Develop speed like a sprinter and endurance like a distance runner.

Could it be possible?

Edited by enterthezone, 27 July 2007 - 01:12 PM.

[BH]

enterthezone, on Jul 26 2007, 09:53 AM, said:

I think we may be close in our ways of thinking. Where it may differ is with the exact nature of the relationship necessary for the 800m between volume and intensity. I believe the intensity factor is a lot higher than people are willing to believe. The strong resistance to this idea i have experienced leads me to feel quite strongly there is a bias within distance running against speed. I believe the 800m is closely related to the 400m and less so to the 1500m. If i am correct in this assumption then it may be logical to assume that 800m training is quite similar to training for the 400m. Of course it is also next to the 1500m so has similarity to that event also. Which is it closer to? It's closest cousin is the 400 hurdles at 47 seconds to 101 seconds for the 800m whereas the 1500m is 206. Food for thought however, I think 100 seconds can be broken by the next generation through superior speed development. 99 seconds could be 48 then 51. A 48 first lap would require a low 45 pb which would require mid 21 pb which would require sub 11 from blocks. This would require high speed of course, speed developed from the beginning of the running career i would think. Develop speed like a sprinter and endurance like a distance runner.

Could it be possible?

3000m is closer to 400m then Marathon but it doesn't mean that 3000m is more like 400m then matathon. The 800m does require tremendous speed development, but all the speed is useless after 500m if you can't maintain it - this is the critical problem in Australia in that we have plenty of athletes with speed to match international runners - but hardly any to match the stamina. Take Tamsyn Lewis as a prime example. Her 400m time should be bringing her results 3 to 4 seconds faster then her PB, but from all accounts she trains via the methods you are advocating and simply does not develop the stamina.

Speed is limited - stamina is not.

100 seconds could have been broken by this and the previous generation if speed was the issue - it never has been in the 800m it has always been stamina, there are plenty of athletes getting around with enough speed to go under 1:40. But moving back to Australia, we really need to just worry about getting athletes under 1:44 at this stage.

I don't think Australian athletes on the whole are capable of even completing the required intensity of 800m training because of their lack of stamina and the strength which comes from adequate volume.
That there lies the problem, stamina is not totally undestood in that sure - greater stamina allows you to maintain your speed for longer - however just as important it allows you to complete the required volume and intensity of your race specific workouts.

I really don't agree with people experimenting on Junior athletes. If coaches have a new theory it is probably best tested on themselves. As Bud Winter said (have not got the article with me so quote not word for word) "Until you can match the results that I achieved with this program - just follow this program" In other words, why the heck are Australian coaches trying to improve upon methods when they are yet to match the results of those methods?

[saverunning]

enterthezone
Yes, I am really just argumentative. (definition of argue 1. attempt to prove by presenting reasons 2. to debate 3. to persuade)
You say that you believe there is a "bias in distance running against speed" and I cannot dismiss this immediately. I believe that a number out-of-school runners, a lot of people who casually run do all their running at around one speed, and tend to drift towards the "groucho marx" style of movement. Excessive bending of the rear leg while driving forwards means excessive foot contact time and oxygen cost skyrockets - it's a very inefficient way to run.

Edited by saverunning, 27 July 2007 - 08:44 AM.

[HillsAths1]

Regardless of whether you do the 100m or the marathon you cannot rely on stamina to win you a medal or a good time. If doing pure long runs was the cure for being able to run fast, I can point out a truck load of joggers who do long runs of 30km plus every week and a lot of them struggle to break 50minutes for 10km.
One of the main themes of training is specificity, which in short means that your training program is designed to meet the needs of the goal that you are aiming for. In 800m running that is running 2 laps at a quick speed, for marathon it is being able to hold a pace(say 3 min km) for the full distance. In long jumping it is being able to get the right elevation and speed at takeoff.
If you train as a marathon runner where you have great stamina you are more than likely not going to have a great 800m time and Vice versa.(yes I know Ovett won a half marathon.. there are always going to be exceptions)

[Rudolf]

HillsAths1, on Jul 27 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

Regardless of whether you do the 100m or the marathon you cannot rely on stamina to win you a medal or a good time. If doing pure long runs was the cure for being able to run fast, I can point out a truck load of joggers who do long runs of 30km plus every week and a lot of them struggle to break 50minutes for 10km.
One of the main themes of training is specificity, which in short means that your training program is designed to meet the needs of the goal that you are aiming for. In 800m running that is running 2 laps at a quick speed, for marathon it is being able to hold a pace(say 3 min km) for the full distance. In long jumping it is being able to get the right elevation and speed at takeoff.
If you train as a marathon runner where you have great stamina you are more than likely not going to have a great 800m time and Vice versa.(yes I know Ovett won a half marathon.. there are always going to be exceptions)

yes fully agree, just a note on Ovett halmarathon - extending to speed into endurance is much easire and done very often,
so Oven into halfmarathon is oposite example, however You will not get Troopy or Monna etc to extend the speed into 800m
So going longer is easy, but going shorter is exteremely hard (at competitive speed).


Juantorena was elite basketballer was in Cuba national team. its the basketball more than swimming which did it - basketball game is hundreds of repetive sprints with very short breaks, and the leg and core power crucial- it is the twisting movement of core - which is the basketball main point - constant turning of upper body with or without the ball.

Tamsyn is not fast 400m runner i said it many times, she is 4 secs or so slower than Kratochvilova was, but she is only 6 secs slower at 800m. That to me is showing she has good stamina but slow speed.

However having said thsi I am aware from being familiar with Kratochvilova, that her WR was not the limit of her 800m
and she and coach realized that, so they set up a race just for her to run even faster, but lots of stuff went wrong, from the pace setters, so did not happen, it was end of season, and next year was buggered.

So Kratochvilova was potentialy faster at 800m, so the comparison with Tamsyn is not accurate, but still stand .

[enterthezone]

[quote name='saverunning' post='249335' date='Jul 27 2007, 07:53 AM']enterthezone
Yes, I am really just argumentative. (definition of argue 1. attempt to prove by presenting reasons 2. to debate 3. to persuade)

Yes this is the definition of argue. Argumentative has a different definition and says something like having the predisposition to argue and some synonyms include contentious, combative, disputatious, quarrelsome and scrappy. But i am merely being argumentative myself here

Edited by enterthezone, 27 July 2007 - 01:52 PM.

[HillsAths1]

Looks like Ceplak the Slovenian 800m runner has tested positive for EPO.

[saverunning]

Rudolf how do you know it was the basketball "which did it" for Juantorena? He did gymnastics, soccer, track, basketball, volleyball and baseball at school. He was also a top swimmer. So are you saying it was ONLY the basketball that did it? So don't the others give you leg and core strength?

Enterthezone, "argumentative" means prone or likely to argue - and as argue does mean to prove by reason/debate you are wrong. So your definition is not complete or fully accurate. So there.

HillsAths1, who said that doing long runs was the cure for running fast? Or are you just reading between the lines - or perhaps you are just barking up the wrong tree as well. As far as specificity goes, running is the best training for running. But are you saying that an 800m runner should only run 800m for his training - maybe we should wheel him out in a wheelchair to the start line as walking to the start is not really specific. Diversity delivers strength - look at inbreeding in species, look at monoculture crops and their susceptibility to disease and pests.

Oh BH nearly forgot you. How can you say speed is limited? If an ostrich can run at 80km/hr for over 30 minutes then speed is not limited at all - just learn to run like an ostrich BH.

And Freedickland you said this was a wonderful discussion. No it isn't - it's not wonderful at all, not even a little bit. So as far as I'm concerned you're all barking up the wrong something-or-other and need to stop arguing so much and critisizing eachother. I'm sick and tired or people not agreeing with eachother.

[Rudolf]

saverunning, on Jul 27 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

Rudolf how do you know it was the basketball "which did it" for Juantorena? He did gymnastics, soccer, track, basketball, volleyball and baseball at school. He was also a top swimmer. So are you saying it was ONLY the basketball that did it? So don't the others give you leg and core strength?

You right, my info was that he was basketballer in national team for few years, I did not know about his swimming and other sports, the volleyball is logical because of his buold and jump ability and it is one of the most valued sport in Cuba,
and every school would have compulsory Volleball participation.

Yes everything builds it, thats correct, but perhaps I shopuld refraze it that basketball was for him the most importannt factor as he spent most time with it and specificaly last few years before athletics.

I am also somehow focused her on Buster basketball school history and his brother basketball conection

[HillsAths1]

"which in short means that your training program is designed to meet the needs of the goal that you are aiming for."

If you are going to quote me at least try and get it right.....it says that the program is designed to meet the needs of the goal that you are aiming for. It does not say only do 800m reps.

"I'm sick and tired or people not agreeing with eachother." I believe it is you that is not agreeing so you are the odd one out.

[saverunning]

HillsAths1, I don't think I've ever seen "a truck load of joggers" but then maybe I need to get out more. If it is just poetic speech then indeed it has a certain ring to it.

Your argument seems to be taking the line that running ability is dependant on training (runners "who do long runs of 30km plus every week and a lot of them struggle to break 50min for 10km") exclusively. You have not considered - truck load of innate ability, trailer full of consistency, bucket load of "maybe they don't want to break 50min" and a spattering of "so what's wrong with struggling to break 50min anyway?" People who cannot/struggle to break 50min are as valid and important to running as any other runners.

[Rudolf]

I am getting lost here ?

why would anybody who does not want to run 50 for 10k, would even contemplate the long run of 30+

To be able socialy jog fun run 10k at 55, You jutst need few casula jogging sessions per week, and not structured training program with extreme sessions like 30+k long run.