26 replies to this topic

[wombatoutofhell]

Hi all-I've come to the conclusion I need to start having a speed training session every week. I'm a little confused though (as usual) I'm reading terms like "interval training", "fartlek" and "tempo runs". Whats the difference? Or are they all different names for basically the same thing?
If they are all different, why choose one over the other? I want to improve my 10km and 21.1km times-what should I be looking at doing?
You know for a simple sport running can get really complex!

[azza]

10k and 21.1k are two different beasts to try and specialise in...

but given your current running experience, just keep running, shoot for consistency, and try running a little bit more every week (with a drop back every three or so if you need it). But I think consistenc is key in early days, you'll watch your times drop considerably just by sticking to a schedule (speaking from experience ).

If you're getting a bit bored, a fartlek ("speedplay", or an unstructured run) shakes things up nicely without putting too much stress on your body. Basically, warmup a bit, then try running flat out to the next light post...then drop back to your normal pace for a bit....then try running your 5k speed for 4 minutes...then drop back again...then race for the lights... I think you get the idea, just keep it loose and fun! It's all about changing your pace so your body doesn't get used to the same thing day after day.

Here's some quick and dirty definitions for you (taken from Daniel's Running Formula, and butcherd by me):

interval training - "Fast and Hard" training, meant to increase your VO2max (basically your ability to run fast for longer periods). Running at speeds between your 5k and 10k pace, for short periods. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Ex: In my marathon program, I'm doing a 5 x 1000m - run 1000 at around my 10k pace, rest (walking or slow jog) for about 2 minutes, repeat 4 more times. Very structured session, but ther are infinite variations based on the distance you train for, and the methodology that works for you.

fartlek - unstructured intervals, just run fast, then slow, then fast, then slow...no watch required, in fact just leave it at home , it's more fun that way.

tempo runs - 20 to 40 minute run at a pace you can keep for an hour. Increases your lactic threshold - or the distance you can cover in an hour.

I'm pretty sure you'll be getting a bit more detail from others.

Remember to have fun!

[conradm]

Nice post Azza. I'm doing Pat Carroll's speed work from the Sydney Marathon website and just following it blindly (who am I to question) but it's nice to have some theory behind it. And without having to digest all the jargon as well!

He incorporates some crazy intervals - 3 x 3km the other day damn near killed me! Also a session of 2km:1km:0.5km:0.5km:2km was a good one.

Wombat I really enjoyed getting down to the track and prancing around like a sprinter! So completely different to the long slow distance runs I've been used to. Speedwork's a lot of fun and a different feeling when you've finished than that of a "normal" run.

Incidentally, I used McMillan's calculator to work out how fast I should be running the various distances because when you haven't done it before it's very easy to shoot off on your first interval at a pace you feel might be sustainable only to get to the third one and be done for. With the pacing schedule from the calculator, you feel like it's too easy on the first one, but by the time you finish the last one you know you've had a workout.

Sorry to ramble, but this addition to my training has been loads of fun and added variety and change to the week.

I also agree with Azza on his last point - make sure you have lots of fun!

[ChookLegsMonkeyBoy]

Speed work is great fun and adds quite a bit of variety to your training.
I also find it very efficient. For example, one can do 4x 1km intervals at 5k race speed, plus recovery between intervals, plus warm up and down, in something like 1/2 an hour and feel good about yourself. How good is that!
Another variation is to find a moderate hill you can run up in ~30-45 seconds, walk down for recovery and repeat 5-8 times aiming for consistent times. Greatly improves your strength, and again is a quick workout which I often do at a nearby hill on the way back from work.
Tempo runs are good for speed and endurance. They need discipline to get the most out of them as you need to go fast enough to "raise your lactate threshold", but slow enough to complete the goal time or distance (like a race, really).
Good luck with experimenting with these techniques.
ChookLegs.....

[BH]

"Speed" training?? Be careful in the use of the word. Some people think any hard running or interval training is speed work.

In reality speed training is that which enhances maximum speed, so short 3 to 6 second efforts at 100% sprint or some 6 to 15 second efforts at 95% effort/sprint - the latter often preferred by distance runners as less chance of injury.

Any other sort of trianing is targeting a different physiological component and should not be referred to as speed training.

[theycallmerhino]

I noticed y'day the Footman wrote a pretty comprehensive article on speed training:
http://www.intrainin...cles/speed.html

It increased my limited knowledge quite a bit.

[Rudolf]

BH, on Jul 24 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

"Speed" training?? Be careful in the use of the word. Some people think any hard running or interval training is speed work.

In reality speed training is that which enhances maximum speed, so short 3 to 6 second efforts at 100% sprint or some 6 to 15 second efforts at 95% effort/sprint - the latter often preferred by distance runners as less chance of injury.

Any other sort of trianing is targeting a different physiological component and should not be referred to as speed training.

finaly somebody said, I was not the 1 to want stirr the pot.

Also the spped training could be doing squads with max possible weight to be able to performerm 1-3 reps only,

doing dynamic squads with weight, doing jumps, doing plyometrics... everything the top sprinters do, when they do not just run 60m reps

Further part of developing speed is plenty of rest days and complete recovery, because only totaly recovered and repaired muscles after extremely hard trainingg could do another session at slightly better level (more qeights, higher jumps, faster sprints.

Pietro Menea had regime of 4 days on, 3 days off

Edited by Rudolf, 25 July 2007 - 06:02 AM.

[BH]

theycallmerhino, on Jul 24 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

I noticed y'day the Footman wrote a pretty comprehensive article on speed training:
http://www.intrainin...cles/speed.html

It increased my limited knowledge quite a bit.

As I said, many people misunderstand basic definitions and physiology - yes even many coaches - particularly in Australia and America.

[enterthezone]

yay for speed training! If you want to enhance your basic speed there two ways you can achieve this that i know of. The first is what Rudolph and BH are talking about - max speed enhancement is done by max speed training ie trying to hit max and then push past so thereby establishing a new max. This can be achieved by sprints, bounding of all sorts, weight training for maximum strength gain and say downhill sprinting or elastic towing as a more specialist example. The other way is to develop your running posture and technique. A more efficient movement pattern means either less energy used for the same result or alternatively a greater result for the same energy expenditure. One of Buster's greatest gifts is his highly efficient running posture and technique. I also admire Kipketer for this same quality.

In the animatrix which is a collection of cartoons based on the matrix world- there is one cartoon where an athlete literally breaks past the bonds of himself in his quest for faster and faster. I like this ideal as a way of showing something of the spirituality behind intensity as opposed to that espoused by those where persistence is a way to the beyond - the long distance runner

[4life]

mmm speedwork - my 5km pace is only 5 secs per km faster than my 10km time

[Rudolf]

enterthezone, on Jul 25 2007, 08:25 PM, said:

One of Buster's greatest gifts is his highly efficient running posture and technique. I also admire Kipketer for this same quality.

this is a result of strong core muscle system, where all elements of core traing are done consistnly and corectly.
refer to Buster core training, but also to his previous years as triathlet and basketball.


Yep but its a great point - posture, correct biomechanics...correct shoes(thinnest racing flats)

[FreeDickland]

Wombat etc., (what a wonderful mane)

As beginning runner speed work is far easier to sort out than it is for us old blokes/blokettes who have been tottering around for years - we have all sorts of recollections of what we used to do / what we tell others we used to do, what we are able to do now and what we think we can do now.

No need to go at it like a bull at a gate - one simple approach is to go out on an undulating course once per week - after warmin up for 10-15 minutes or so run up next hill slightly faster than is comfortable and then run down the other side bery easily - very slow and keep that up for as mamy hills as feels OK - afetr a few weeks you should gradually be running up hill slightl=y faster and perhaps doing a few mor eof these less slow "bursts".

Forget times and distance equations - time enough for that later if at all. It is the conditioning, cardio vascular and neuro muscular that happens and a lot of that is needed to undertake the plethora of training programs around - you have to get fit enough to run then fit enough to run faster and then fit enough to run faster again = over and over again.

Iwas never a Percy Cerrutty disciple when younger - a little too way out perhaps - but now on reading his stuff again I keep thinking he was perhaps the wisest of us all - - stop watches and measured tracks can hamstring our minds as training times can all too easily limit our ambitions as we set these by what we know we are capable of from our timed speed work.

Far better to have a clear idea of how hard we are able to push ourselves for a certain time/distance and push ourselves to improve that - anything rather than look at our time for eg., 8km or 20 x 400 in ? seconds and ? recovery and use these as basis for our expectations.

Run, enjoy and occasionally run a little harder, hopefully faster - keep on enjoying and enjoying more - that is what it is all about.

[wombatoutofhell]

Thanks all for the replies-I'm not sure I'm any less confused but at least I have a few ideas as to what to do!
First thing-I need to move to an area thats not so flat. Or maybe combine my speed run with my hills run.
I have wondered about my running"style" and biomechanics. I had my gym instructor watch me on the treadmill to see what (if anything) I was doing wrong. He burst out laughing. "OK" I said "what am I doing wrong?" "Everything" was the answer. He said he wasn't sure weather to try to fix it or leave it as it is as it seems to work for me. My physio however-who is a runner himself-says there's not much wrong. I feel my style can be improved-but I'm not sure how. Maybe if I could stop getting my heels hitting my legs as they do every now and again, or stop my knees knocking together it might help.
For the moment I think I'll go the "lets see how fast i can get to that lampost" method. We'll see how it goes. When I'm next around hills I'll try the running up, recovery down approach.
Thanks all

[loubee]

wombatoutofhell, on Jul 27 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

I have wondered about my running"style" and biomechanics. I had my gym instructor watch me on the treadmill to see what (if anything) I was doing wrong. He burst out laughing. "OK" I said "what am I doing wrong?" "Everything" was the answer. He said he wasn't sure weather to try to fix it or leave it as it is as it seems to work for me. My physio however-who is a runner himself-says there's not much wrong.

A couple of weeks ago at the Perth Marathon I saw some pretty "inefficient" running styles but these runners made some pretty good times so if you feel comfortable stay as you are. I would take your physio/runner's opinion over the gym instructor.

I run my speed intervals on the treadmill using the speed interval program. I find I can push myself and maintain my speed for each interval rather than slowing early on the road/track. I run hard for 400metres then 200/300 recovery jog. Although I still need to push myself harder my times are improving.

Edited by loubee, 28 July 2007 - 12:25 AM.

[FreeDickland]

Wombat from Hades

Hills are helpful option that I suggested as a framework for faster/less easy running - certainly not essential - - lampposts are OK but tend to be rather close together - - you may try alternat blocks slow/hard or add a random element by using every 3rd or red (or any othercolour) car parked beside the road to set up the harder bits.

Not sure if treadmill running would require similar style to running on tracks, roads etc. Treadmill surface is moved under your feet by the motor and you run to keep up with it - outside you are the motor moving your body forwards over a static (and variable) surface.

To my thinking these two are quite different activities requiring different forces, balance, co-ordination; ie., not sure if any clear guidelines canbe drawn fromtreadmill for running on "real" surface.

The other bit with tread mills is that every step is on same flat smooth surface with no variety at all - - outside there are lumps, bumps, holes, sandy bits, grassy bits, mud, slush, cement etc., etc., - many different surfaces that mean every step is different - - much better for developing relaxed balanced style - and probably less chance of injury - as long as youstayalert and do not trip (a fall of treadmill can also be quite interesting as friend of mine ended up with fractured forearm and strained shoulder)

Keep at it - - perseverance works - - certainly the more you run the more your style will evolve as your body adapts to running and learns how it runs best - - a long rather than short term process - the other thing to keep in mind is that running style changes with such processes as ageing and wieght loss gain due to changes in flexibility, muscle strength and balance.

Good luck -

[thesilverfox]

wombatoutofhell, on Jul 23 2007, 05:44 PM, said:

Hi all-I've come to the conclusion I need to start having a speed training session every week. I'm a little confused though (as usual) I'm reading terms like "interval training", "fartlek" and "tempo runs". Whats the difference? Or are they all different names for basically the same thing?
If they are all different, why choose one over the other? I want to improve my 10km and 21.1km times-what should I be looking at doing?
You know for a simple sport running can get really complex!

Hi Wombatoutofhell! I am no expert or authority on running and can only share with you my four years experience to date! I run veterans athletics and have times of 2.16 (800m), 59sec (400m), 27sec(200m) and 17.37(5,000m) which are not overly great but they will do for now!To answer your first question; I will define what is meant by interval training, fartlek and tempo running! "Intervals "refer to runs where you run for a certain amount of time, lets say 30sec then you have the same amount of time off! This is different to "repetitions"where you might run 6 * 400m and have the equivalent amount of recovery (ie; 400m) between each repetition. "Fartlek" is Swedish for "speedplay" and involves you running for around 30 minutes or more at varying paces! In a "fartlek" session you might jog for 3mins then all of a sudden do a fast paced run for 60sec then walk for 15 sec then jog for 2mins then another fast paced run for 90seconds then jog for 3mins whatever on and on it goes!etc; Now, a "tempo" run is where you might run for 5km at a pace that you are comfortable with (usually 80% of you maximum effort) and maintain this pace throughout the distance! I myself have recently replaced the long slow distance run that I used to do on a Sunday with a run of this type and it is working for me! (It may/ may not work for you). In answer to your second question, if you want to run those types of distances then you must be prepared to do some longer runs. I am a middle distance runner myself, but when I was a lot younger I did run a 33mins 10km on the track! I did this by running long distances of greater than 16km for my longest run and incorporating "intervals" (but lots of them) , "fartlek" and "hill" running (for strength-lI recommend lots of hills). Anyway, I hope that I have been of some help?? All the best and good luck with your running!

[scurry711]

Get yourself a book called Daniels Running Formula. You won't regret it. He uses a VDOT formula which you can work out where your fitness is at by comparing your recent race times against his chart. He then provides suggested speeds for training at for long runs, intervals, tempo, reps and marathon pace. There are whole chapters devoted to the various forms of speed work. Its very easy to read.

[wombatoutofhell]

Thanks silverfox-thats exactly the information I wanted! I wondered where a stupid word like fartlek came from! I still haven't added speed training to my workouts but with some new goals I have it's not far away.
Thanks scurry-I'll look out for that one. Azza mentioned it earlier in this thread as well.

[scurry711]

You can work out your VDOT and the training times with this website here

[Eagle]

Wombatoutofhell:

I want to improve my 10km and 21.1km times-what should I be looking at doing?
You know for a simple sport running can get really complex!

However before starting speed sessions I woul dask have you done enough base training for it to be beneficial. Also when is your goal race and how long do you inend to do the speed work for. The most benefit for speed work will come in 3/4 weeks of a session or two a week. After that thee is little improvement in speed and it can have a negative affect on the base you already have.

You may find by increasing you base k's that you times for those distances will come done without the need for a speed session. If you read Daniels you will see that his speed sessions are only part of his program at the ned of the base building phase and near the end of the program - that is close to the goal race.

[enterthezone]

I think Lydiard was and is the man when it came to MD and LD. Daniels has put together his system based on the interval training methods first developed in Germany and the first real name to do this was Gerschler that i know of.

If you want to look at some interesting discussion of the relative merits of the two then the following link will help - excellent reading

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php...p;thread=964958

for a shorter discussion on Lydiard v Daniels v Coe look here

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php...mp;thread=97793

and finally here is Arthur Lydiard's training manual

http://www.fitnesssp...ide/lydpg2.html

[Rudolf]

Hey wombat

the name of the topic is SPEED TRAINING,
but the discussion is about anaerobic approach to distance running.

speed training is something like 60m repetitions, plyometric, heavy weights, jumps, extremely fats turnover drills etc.

anything You do is shorter than 8 secs

that is speed training, and that is what Bideau-Buster also do and call, when Buster runs 60m strides.

everything else described in this thread is not about speed training, but it is about anaerobic approach to disstance running, it is about increasing the anaerobic treshold pace etc

[enterthezone]

Correct Rudolf.

I like Lydiard's view on speed training. After his base phase he has the hill training phase which i see as strength endurance and explosive power basework. This is a level up in speed from the base phase. The next phase was trackwork and lactate tolerance. Again another notch up the intensity ladder. Then the sharpening phase when speed-work was prioritised. So the athlete can move up the intensity ladder from phase to phase anyway.

As Rudolf points out Buster runs 60m reps weekly, all year round. Since Bideau is basically taking things straight from Lydiard this fits with Lydiard's idea of fast leg turnover all year round.

However, this fast leg turnover doesn't mean speed development. What it means is keeping the feeling of fast turnover whilst most of your training is at a slower turnover. Speed development is a different kettle of fish to speed maintenance.

Speed development involves pushing past the previous maximal capacity for speed to a new one. There are plenty of different background training methods to assist this, however, the crux of the situation is in order to find a higher top speed the athlete needs to be able to run at that new top speed. With effective background development a race or a time trial or a big tailwind could bring this change on.

Background activities include increasing maximal strength, improving mechanical efficiency again through strength but this time more in a circuit, whole body style of strength. Power can be enhanced through jumping activities. Speed endurance can be enhanced by doing reps of 150s, 120s, 80s off 3 mins recoveries.

If this is being covered but speed is still elusive then it may be the way you are doing the speed work. If it involves much straining then speed probably isn't being developed. However, some strain is required because one thing you are trying to do with speed is find a higher intensity of effort. Straining past the comfort zone a little is part of this.

Finally, find a downhill stretch of 100m-120m somewhere. It should be only slightly downhill. 2-3 degrees. Start the first few sessions easy and gradually build the speed. When you can sprint to your maximum downhill and stay balanced your track speed will have gone through the roof.

Edited by enterthezone, 23 October 2007 - 04:27 PM.

[400mSprintersAreSexiest]

As a former mid to top level sprinter (400m) speed work to me was running anywhere from 95-100% from 30m to 80m (80m being the preferred choice for 400m - maybe more speed endurance for some). Increasing one's speed was a different kettle of fish and carefully planned and done to the extent that you may only do one of these sessions once a fortnight or if capable once a week.

The neuromuscular effect on "over speed" training as it was called was quite significant and very taxing on the body (even though it may not have felt like it). Downhill running on a minute slope (as enterthezone said a 2-3 degree decline was the max, although some Yanks have done it on a 5 degree slope). The was also elastic pulling or a pulley rope type system. In the NFL some clubs had a specialised machine that tied to your ankles and you held two pulleys in our hand and it pulled you along (using your best technique).

Generally at least one week and preferably two weeks was given to recover before doing such a session again. The idea was to "force" your muscle to adapt, thus allowing in theory the potential to increase one's top speed and hence train at faster paces.

Downhill sprinting was considered the best and the least "artificial" - read less injury chance.

As a sprinter, you would not go more than 3-5 secs - as a middle distance or long distance runner I cannot comment on whether this training would work or be of benefit. As such a distance of no more than 40-80m was covered - the average around 50m to 60m with a run through.

It did assist me more in the 200m (I was never a good 100m runner) and I would suggest assisted my overall 400m times.

Some incredible times have been recorded e.g. 50m in 3.9 secs, 60m in 4.8. But remember the stress this puts on your body is enormous and you really do need the recovery.

There is a good book called Sport Speed written by Dittman (published about 12 years ago). Regarded as one of the best books on increasing speed around. A tad overboard for my tastes but it examined what NFL clubs did, how to test for speed difference, train effectively for top speed, overspeed, accleration, speed endurance etc.

[Old chook]

All interesting stuff, everyone. Sounds as though what most of us do is practice anaerobic threshold and hence speed maintenence, rather than what the purists call speedwork. For the long distancers amongst us, the former is probably more useful anyway.

A cautionary note: The commonest cause of injury of "back of the leg", ie. achilles, calf, hamstring structures is speedwork and hill training. Putting explosive power to the ground can explode not just your times. I know this from reading, ignoring the reading and hence repeated experience. So be sure to have a good running base and preferably also eccentric calf stretches +/- one leg calf raises in your routine before going hard at hills or speed. This is desirable for youngsters and ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for anyone over 35.

You will create a strong and flexible musculotendinous complex, which will respond by thrusting you forward powerfully when you ask it, rather than ripping, tearing in half, filling up with blood or just snapping all together.

[sol]

Yeah, so I tried "speed work" on the weekend for the first time. The kids wanted to run into the hole we'd dug at the beach from a decent distance away. I paced out 40m and took the opportunity to "see what I could do" over this distance. Went flat out three times along the firm sand into our water-filled hole. No warm up. No prior training for this type of thing. And no significant runs for about 4 weeks.

Managed 6 seconds ... and a sore hamstring. And a strained groin.

So yeah, maybe one should work up to this. Thanks for the cautionary note Old Chook!

csol

(whose 6-year-old ran 9.5 sec, and the 3 year old came in in a blistering 14 seconds ) (With NO injuries!)

[enterthezone]

If you don't use yourself with speed regularly you lose the capacity. Little kids do it all the time bless them. Find out where you can accelerate to without strain and begin developing from there. I think that speed is the ability to move faster. Arthur Lydiard says it is a function of two things - stride length and stride frequency. You can practise both ideas during your strides before your session.

I guess running downhill is quite an advanced form of speed training. It occurs right at the end of the process. If you are already trained up quite optimally already then this will help. As regards the length - agreed with you 400man 30-40 was about it initially. I think over the years we developed the ability to control our running position for longer so could allow the over-speed feeling to come on and off over a longer period of time. Using a towing belt on an elastic and later a stretch cable also helped this aspect. It was definitely a late season/peaking type of activity.

I was thinking more about this and i realised what i do with new runners. It's all about technique at the start. Conditioning training occurs after this has begun to be established. Speed development is also conditioning training. I would work on the conditioning aspect of speed once the technical aspect is covered.

To cover this for over 75% of runners is quite easy. Stop leaning forward so much and allow your pelvis to move forward instead. It will make you more upright and more in a position for speed. Leaning forward is only good for the acceleration aspect of speed. Upright is necessary for top speed. Furthermore most of the acceleration that is important occurs at the end of a MD race. Only minor leaning is needed at this stage because not much acceleration is needed. A higher top speed at this stage is very helpful though.

hope this helps