25 replies to this topic

[enterthezone]

one of the athletes i coach asked me to start off a topic asking this question:

how much aerobic conditioning is necessary for the 400m?

what do people think?

[Jimboy]

 enterthezone, on Aug 15 2007, 03:16 PM, said:

one of the athletes i coach asked me to start off a topic asking this question:

how much aerobic conditioning is necessary for the 400m?

what do people think?

Google" Clyde Hart" and read the sprint master coach advice-study his training system for 400m
runners-surprising how much non-anaerobic volume in it.Certainly seems to have worked for Michael Johnson and the new kid,Warriner.

[enterthezone]

awesome thanks jim - coach hart is one to add to my pantheon.

[Simmo]

Its an anaerobic race, so if you're a 400m specialist you do anaerobic training. However, if you're a middle or long distance runner wanting to improve your final lap speed, you do some long runs, and a lot of intervals sessions. (That's a bit of a simplification, but you get the idea).

[nvrgvup]

Elite coaching special - Clyde Hart coach to Michael Johnson and Jeremy Wariner

[Sparkie]

Equating aerobic conditioning with stamina (the latter term being somewhat nebulous), there are two important requirements for 400m runners

* being able to do the workload for a top 400m runner - lots of reps
* being able to get through heats and semis - ability to back up

both these things require a decent aerobic capacity

also - there will always be some aerobic component to running - so even though it is small in the 400m, it is still there, and might mean a few 10ths of a second - the difference between gold and 4th...

[BH]

"They build basic conditioning with aerobic work. Aerobic ability is important. The 400m is not just about anaerobic - that view is antiquated.

"From what I have learned in the last 30 years I am not learning much new knowledge but my knowledge is being reinforced. Coaches today are not smarter than in the past but they have a bigger vocabulary. We used to do ‘related work’ - now we do ‘plyometrics’, everything has a label to it and science proves what we're doing.”

Says a lot! Hello Australia - why are you so far behind????

[formergreat]

an aerobic base is critical. athletes who are aerobicly fitter can maintain leg speed for longer in my opinion. a good aerobic base does not harm, and as long as adequete endurance and speed work is done through out the season, then there will be no lack of speed.

Running at championships, you may have 5 400's over 7 days? a better aerobic base will definatly help you recover. I have had 3 400's in 24 hour and still ran a pb, in which i accredite to my strong aerobic base

[enterthezone]

i remember Renee Poetshka pb 50.19 2nd all time to Cathy Freeman.I also remember her coach tudor bidder who said once he trains his athletes to be able to run 4 rounds at a major championship. He also coached a guy called Declan Stack to a pb 45.50,about what Sean Wroe runs now. He ALSO (sorry) coached this guy called Mohammed al Malki to a 44 point pb and Olympic final from a small country called Oman where he coached after leaving England and before his first time in Australia. He seems to have had success more than once which is somewhat rare and his approach of training for 4 rounds may mean as formergreat (anyone know who?) states - a bigger aerobic base.

Edited by enterthezone, 17 August 2007 - 12:38 PM.

[Jason M]

I think it might be important to define what is meant by aerobic.

There are so many different definitions and thoughts on the subject.

For example: Aerobic Capacity intervals performed @ 95-100%VO2max have both a high aerobic and anaerobic component. Do we mean anything above the so-called anaerobic threhsold? Or just supramaximal running?

[enterthezone]

How is it defined by the sport scientists? For me initially long running and fartlek running up to the anaerobic threshold. Not pushing this limit every session. Later longer reps on the track like 10x200 off 1min or 7x400 off 1 min. These sessions overlap aerobic and anaerobic as Jason M says. We also have a long hills session which takes about 20mins and consists of 7 hills 40-45 seconds long (its flat for half of each rep and then increasing incline for the second half of each rep) with a 2min jog back. Like in the track sessions mentioned above the athlete sits in a continuous aerobic state whilst pushing above the threshold each rep to a small but intense degree.

[HardnFast]

I had the opportunity to ask Darren Clarke this question back in the mid 90's when we were both seeing the same physio. I was surprised when he told me he regularly ran 8-10K runs during the week right through his prime.

[Still Building]

From Norm Osbourne -
Rick Mitchell did a regular long run
(from memory ten miles around the streets and I think this was a weekly occurrence in the winter)

[MizukiNoguchi]

Paul Pearce or Casey Vincent perhaps?

[Jimboy]

 Still Building, on Aug 17 2007, 01:29 PM, said:

From Norm Osbourne -
Rick Mitchell did a regular long run
(from memory ten miles around the streets and I think this was a weekly occurrence in the winter)

Ah! Norm,posibly the best Aussie md coach ever,certainly never fully recognized or rewarded by the athletic establishment for his coaching talent.
I recall reading his training mode for our great 1500/800 man Michael Hillardt,it was almost classic Lydiard.
It would be wonderful if this great coach would write a book on his career,it might open a few eyes.and please stop knocking Aussie coachs in general.We have had,and still do,some wonderful people in this field.But coachs can only guide,the fire must be in the athlete's belly.

[dave1678]

"With any good coach if they have not stolen from the best men in the business then they are a fool."

No need to re-invent the wheel!

[MizukiNoguchi]

Was thinking about this today. Even in a pure quality 400m session, eg 3x300 with long (15min) recoveries there must be a big aerobic component. 10-15min warm up jog, 30-40min stretch/drill/strides, 32min session, 10-15min cool down, 20-30min stretch. That's a minimum 1.30 session, without extra drills or some short sprints between the session and cool down. In reality the session will last 2 hours, but if you are counting volume will go in the diary as 10km's. Not sure how much quality would be lost during the 3 reps by an athlete without an aerobic base vs an aerobically fit athlete, but i know which athlete will recover better for another quality 2 sessions the next day.

[enterthezone]

 Kipketer, on Oct 4 2007, 08:04 PM, said:

Was thinking about this today. Even in a pure quality 400m session, eg 3x300 with long (15min) recoveries there must be a big aerobic component. 10-15min warm up jog, 30-40min stretch/drill/strides, 32min session, 10-15min cool down, 20-30min stretch. That's a minimum 1.30 session, without extra drills or some short sprints between the session and cool down. In reality the session will last 2 hours, but if you are counting volume will go in the diary as 10km's. Not sure how much quality would be lost during the 3 reps by an athlete without an aerobic base vs an aerobically fit athlete, but i know which athlete will recover better for another quality 2 sessions the next day.

thats a good way to look at it. What about a session in general preparation phase?

This year Ollie for example did a session like this:
15 min run,
20 mins stretches,
6 runthroughs of varying intensities over 100m,
a full session of hurdle drills - maybe 25 mins worth,
10x200m off 60 seconds,
endurance circuit at then end of the session 2 sets with each set being continuous for about 5 mins.

so in km's this is 4km for the run, 600m for RT's, say 800m of hurdle drills, 2km for the endurance session. total 7.5kms.

in time spent working it is 15min for the run, 1.5 mins for the RT's, maybe 12 mins of the hurdle drills, 5 mins for the 200s, and 10 mins for the circuits. This is 34 mins out of 2.5 hrs spent training and i'm probably overestimating the hurdle drills time.

However, for aerobic development i think it is very high on the strokability meter. Steady running, aerobic rep running, continuous hurdle drills, endurance circuit.

An on the other point of repeating hard training day in day out. I think the better the aerobic base the easier this is. Injury resistnace is enhanced with an enhanced aerobic system as well i believe.

Edited by enterthezone, 04 October 2007 - 10:52 PM.

[lcc]

THIS IS MICHAEL JOHNSONS TRAINING





Strived primarily to be consistent, it was his number one priority.

Program designed to create this.

Did not believe in peaking

Built a base and then did not "milk" it too much, kept topping it up

Consistency - coach , training environment, everything - nothing ever changed much

Setting goals - big goals with small goals to lead to it.

Maintaining work ethic required reminding self of goals, 100% perfect training,

Coach learns from athlete, athlete learns from coach - feelings of athlete shaped work done either quality or quantity. Athlete had superior mental understanding of program,

Athlete-Coach rely on one another

Strategy

Initial College strategy was : Slow as possible for first 200m then go hard, this strategegy was shaped and tuned over the years to be - reach race speed as early as possible in first 50m cruise to 200m then accelerate steadily next 100m and hold form for last 100m

Workouts done to rehearse strategy called EVENT workouts

eg 3 x ( 350m in 46s rest 1min 100) 5min rest

or

Event 300s

Which were run with first 50m very quick but then relaxing to go through first 200m in 28s and then the last 100 sub12s rest 10min between (in College) shorter later to maybe 5min

Aimed to have consistent stride frequency and length for duration of race - not a longer stride at end, Allow a shorter stride to just happen but maintain cadence.

Holding Form

Improved by Strength Endurance

Upper body strength from exercises like running arms with good form 5 x 15 each arm with 30s rest.

Did mostly 400m training even though he ran 200m in 19.32

Offseason did two aerobic runs a week 20-45min max. This was for firsrtv 3 weeks mostly but offseason was usually 6 weeks.

Longer reps 2 x 800m or 3 x 600m rest 15min

Common key workout In pre-season

3 x 350m rest 5min in College , later it became 3 x 350m rest 3min , each 50m at same speed.

One Speed workout was called 60 -40m

2 sets of 2 laps of 60m at 95% slow down 40m then pitter-patter jog 40m then 60m at 95% 40m slow down - pitter patter jog 40m. rest between sets 5min

Speed work often was

30, 40, 50, 60, 70 on bend with full recoveries

Weight Training

3 Gym sessions a week usually in morning

from about 9am till 10am - over in an hour

On any day sometime done Mon-Tue-Wed or spread out in week.

Track is at 3pm usually over within 1:45

Weights is general all body work with short recoveries and usually 3 sets of 10 rest less than 1min maybe 30s

No squats , no Olympic lifts, Also did good variety of core work eg 3 x 30m situps 1min rest

Gym did not change in format throughout the season

Did not ever lift really heavy , he did lunges

Normal Warmup

4 laps jog straight - run bends

Stretch 30min

Drills 4-5 x 30m over a speed ladder with fast cadence. This Michael believed was significant effect on his turnover. These were done with a flatish footed contact not with feet pointing down and a quick recovery.

Buildups sometimes for example 3 x 150m with each 50m quicker

Then workout

Comp Warmup

4 laps as usual

Stretch 30min

3 x 100m - first moderate, harder, fast with full recoveries

a few pre-race drills

Time Trials

Did not like Time Trials rather use a key session and base of ease of pace and recovery.

Typically when 2 x 350m rest 3min in 46s was feeling great - race form was great.

At Competition

Expect the unexpected

Visualization

Train the mind to control the body in competition in the way that is wanted.

Sustained Speed work

60m & over was at 95% - never 100%.

Longer work was done for stimulus not for race pace rehearsal, so nearly all was at paces slower than race pace.

Speed

6 x 100m at 95% non-timed from standing start rest 5min

Plyometrics

Never did plyometrics

Overtrain - Undertrain

Better to undertrain than overtrain

Going into Championship

More taper (already doing less volume anyway)

Workout Accuracy

- cones every 50m - beeper sounded at set intervals - athlete ran each 50m at same speed. - Be on the buzzer

- Standing starts

- Workouts done at times planned not faster - not slower.

Important not to go faster than predetermined targets even with 200s in 32s !!

The program includes a plan that divides

Off season - 6 weeks (first 3 weeks on grass)

Pre season

Early season

Late Season

But almost year the program is similar

Monday - Tempo 200s starting with more at 32s and progressing to less late in year in 25s

Tue - long reps starting at 2 x 800m progressing to 2 x 450

Wed - 350m reps x 2-3 - improving in speed

Thu- hills, speed or event specific

Fri - similar to Thurs

Sat - similar to Thurs

Refreshing Base

Coach needs to decide when to refresh base by going back slightly from quality to quantity even if just for a week or two mid season , important not to take too much from base.

Athletes rewarded

[lcc]

MICHAEL JOHNSON

during the Offseason he did two aerobic runs a week 20-45min max. This was for firsrtv 3 weeks mostly but offseason was usually 6 weeks.

Longer reps 2 x 800m or 3 x 600m rest 15min

[MizukiNoguchi]

Were the 3x350's done in 46sec or at 46sec 400m pace? When i was doing this session with a 10min recovery i was able to average 45 mid and i'm only a 49sec 400m runner. 46 would be a very comfortable pace for Johnson.

[enterthezone]

Johnson and Wariner both coached by Clyde Hart at Baylor University. Same basic program for both athletes.

Here is a document on his training methods - it corresponds to ICC's info and fleshes it out a little more

Attached Files

•  hart_on_400m.doc   58.5K   15 downloads

[thesilverfox]

 enterthezone, on Aug 16 2007, 01:16 AM, said:

one of the athletes i coach asked me to start off a topic asking this question:

how much aerobic conditioning is necessary for the 400m?

what do people think?

Hi! I run veterans athletics and am in my early 40's! Up until a year ago I was struggling to break 60 seconds for the 400m! I have been training about three and a half years now and have pb's for 5,000m of 17.37 and 800m of 2.16.I have a pb of 59.0 and am consistantly running under a minute! I don't know whether my reply is beneficial to you or not? However, I am not a sprinter and am really a middle to long distance runner! What I do is a 6km paced run at about 85% effort on a Sunday (I have discovered that the so-called Long Slow Distance just doesn't work and it is not really a "quality" type run) and try and run this under 24 minutes. I run for a total of 45 minutes (1o minutes is allocated for warm up and the remaining 11 minutes is for warm down). I have three other sessions that I do that last a total duration of 25 minutes each and these are a fartlek session , a speed session (usually 6 * 2oom @ 32-33 seconds each ie 80% of top speed which is 27sec for 200m flat out) and an interval session (ie; 1* 1km, 1 * 800m, 1* 600m and 18400m at a good effort). Yes, distance is important but variety and quality is equally important as well! In general, I firmly believe that you should train for speed endurance and NOT "endurance(ie; or that of a distance specialist). Speed endurance means running 600m at 80% of your 4oom flat out pace! It doesn't mean running for 6km at 6mins per km! I hope that I have been of some help? Best Regards!

[MizukiNoguchi]

So, what do you think is the answer? Was he running the 350's in 46sec or was he running them at 46sec 400m pace?
What do you think enterthezone, i'm still unsure after reading the document but guess they are referring to 400m equivalents?

Edited by Wariner, 16 October 2007 - 11:14 PM.

[Rudolf]

 Wariner, on Oct 16 2007, 10:13 PM, said:

So, what do you think is the answer? Was he running the 350's in 46sec or was he running them at 46sec 400m pace?
What do you think enterthezone, i'm still unsure after reading the document but guess they are referring to 400m equivalents?

the answer is blowin' in the wind, but it is also coded in the programm writen.

take this small extract from it :

Monday - Tempo 200s starting with more at 32s and progressing to less late in year in 25s


that is pace for 200's.

200 @ 32 = 350 @ 56

200 @ 25 = 350 @ 44

to me that is very clear, the 350 were done in 46 secs for 350m, and it was significantly faster than lots of 200's reps during the year, and I understand it this way : while the 200's were used in quantity - volume,
the 350 were used in low volume and were all considered quality.

Remember the elite runners do not need to bust their egos by racing in training, training is to build up and races are for racing

Edited by Rudolf, 17 October 2007 - 09:21 AM.

[enterthezone]

Hi

I think the 350s were done in 46 seconds as Rudolf said however i have come to this conclusion through different thinking.

I wonder if we are talking about Michael Johnson's personal program or a generic program for a 46 second runner? ICC i am wondering where you resourced your information.

The topic under discussion:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From ICC's MJ program

Workouts done to rehearse strategy called EVENT workouts

eg 3 x ( 350m in 46s rest 1min 100) 5min rest

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From Hart's generic program for a 46 sec runner

6. Event Running: This workout does exactly what the name implies. The runner will run different distances at a pre determined race strategy in order to learn to work on different aspects of running the 400 meters. We also refer to this as segment running.

Examples of Event Workouts
a) 3 x 300 meters. First 50 meters all out. Next 150 meters, relaxed floating action. All out on last 100 meters. All timed and recorded.

*also from the same article

Sample Workouts

1. Fall (September through December)
Wednesday 3. 4 x 350 (Event Run) Speed 48 sec/Rest 10 minutes
(50 fast 150 relaxed, 200 time 28 seconds, 100
picked up fast, 50 steady and keeping good form)

2. Early Season (January February)
Wednesday 3. 4 x 300 (Event Run) speed 42/rest 5 minutes

3. Mid Season (March April)
Wednesday 3. 4 x 300 (Event run) Speed 42 seconds/rest 5 minutes

Note that after the Event running other running was undertaken. I take this to mean the event running was not done to maximum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking at the fall example session of 4x350. It would not be possible to do this session at the pace of 48 seconds for 400m if the subject was a 46 second runner. The fact this session is done in pre-season is one strong indication and the second reason is that by following this outline of 50 fast, 150 relaxed, 100 picked up fast and 50 steady, only a submaximal overall speed could be achieved, not one within a few seconds of pb level. If it were MJ as 43-44 runner then 46 second pace for 350m would be appropriate in comparison to the generic program. Adding that extra 100m from ICC's MJ program would further indicate it would not be 46sec pace for 400m.

I don't think the Monday 200s are related to these Event sessions at all.

Edited by enterthezone, 18 October 2007 - 11:45 AM.