86 replies to this topic

[Kev]

I have been using the treadmill for my speedwork and was wondering if anyone could comment on the value of this compared to running on the track.

I am training for the Melbourne Marathon and found that I recover from my speedwork quicker if I use the treadmill, with less chance of injury.  Also I find it easier to maintain a consistent fast interval pace.

Do you think there is the same training value as on the track?

[ads]

I also use ours when I can't be arsed getting down to the track.

The big downside is not being exposed to the elements, or as Captain Obvious might say "races aren't run on treadmills". Another problem might when you are dragged along at a quicker pace for the duration of an interval, enabling you to tough it out at a faster speed where you'd normally be slowing down when the ground isn't moving from under you outdoors.

Aside from this, I quite enjoy belting out reps with a window open, the fan on, the Ipod blaring and no headwinds or dirty crosswinds. Overall, however, and particularly with the improvement in the weather, Track > Treadmill.

As long you're doing your big k's and recovery work outdoors (the weather in Melb's been too good not to) you'll be fine.

What sort of reps are you doing for the 'thon? Mine are 4 to 5 x 2K with 45-50 sec rest (+ w/u & c/d of 15 min. each) and 6 x 500 of fast stuff with about 75-80 floating recovery.

[deadcat]

i did almost all my speed work for my first mara on the tready, but this time round i'm going for "the real world".. partly because for the shorter intervals, the tready doesn't go fast enough  
as well as the reasons already stated..

all things being equal, good to recreate real life conditions but the 99% of us who don't have coaches, i would have thought the tready is good way to "force" yourself to work a bit harder than you might otherwise left to your devices..

i was gutted yesterday when i was running for my 10k prep on the tready (first time done anything on the tready for months).. looking good, working hard 7 minutes to go and then it just dies on me.. stops dead.. when i told the girl at the front desk of the gym she shrugged and said "yeah.. happens all the time.. i'll come fix it in a minute"

not happy  

[TBS]

I started out on the treadmill, then went to road running as needed the feel of high impact and the elements, of the road. Found the transition pretty good. When using the treadmill, if you run at the lowest inlcine and not level, you will benefit from the pulling you along effect.  I only started running on the road, because of the Melbourne Marathon, and nothing else. Whne it is finished, I will go back to the tready for half my runs again as more convenient for my lifestyle.
Hips start to play up a little on the road, as the treadmill was more cushioned. But I would say over 10km, you are 2km better off on the road than the treadmill.

TBS

[brizza]

there is no propulsive effort on a treadmill as a machine is doing all the work of forward componant leaving you to make the vertical effort which is in itself work but don't pretend that treadmill time is mileage.on the rare occasion i go to the gym i  see people on the treadmill and they are not sweating.-brizza

[glenda]

Me too Carmen. The treadmill is drenched with sweat when I have run on it... and the max distance I ever ran on it was 12km ...though I have not used a treadmill for training since the kiddies were young and I could not escape outdoors. I am not convinced that the tready is any better for preventing injury though.I find them quite "jarring" to the legs...though I guess less so than concrete?

[ChookLegsMonkeyBoy]

brizza, on Aug 27 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

there is no propulsive effort on a treadmill as a machine is doing all the work of forward componant leaving you to make the vertical effort which is in itself work but don't pretend that treadmill time is mileage.on the rare occasion i go to the gym i  see people on the treadmill and they are not sweating.-brizza

I usually wear a HR monitor while running on the treadmill. Helps to keep me honest....and I sweat. A lot.
But I also agree that the experience on the treadmill isn't the equal of the experience of running outdoors on roads, tracks, etc.

[MaxMTC]

brizza, on Aug 26 2007, 09:04 PM, said:

there is no propulsive effort on a treadmill as a machine is doing all the work of forward componant leaving you to make the vertical effort which is in itself work but don't pretend that treadmill time is mileage.on the rare occasion i go to the gym i  see people on the treadmill and they are not sweating.-brizza

If there was no forward effort you would fall off the back of the treadmill.   However, for a variety of reasons it is mechanically different and less onerous than running outside.

Edited by MaxMTC, 27 August 2007 - 03:19 PM.

[DrJH]

I would have thought the main problem with doing speed work on a treadmill is that it doesn't go fast enough!

[ChookLegsMonkeyBoy]

DrJH, on Aug 27 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

I would have thought the main problem with doing speed work on a treadmill is that it doesn't go fast enough!

They go plenty fast for me DrJH, plenty fast for me.....and then there is incline, which is altogether another world of pain!

[brizza]

i stand by my original assertion,on a treadmill the machine is pushing your foot backwards you are not pushing yourself forwards,you are lifting yourself up,ie the vertical or "flight" componant is still there the propulsive part is missing,in the middle eighties i was involved in biomechanical research and some people in the same lab were trying to work out a simpler method of working out vo2 max than was available at the time and they found out(aong other things) that the calorific turnover of an efficient runner on a treadmill was miniscule compared to the same runner on a track at the same speed which was sixteen kilometers per hour,thats all i remember-sorry if that has upset anyone,was it the way i put it?"not pretending". inclining the treadmill increases the flight componant etc a/a-briz

[brizza]

the cooling effect of moving through the air is part of what your body is looking for as you increase speed and distance,improved efficiency of cooling is part of getting fitter-briz

[MaxMTC]

brizza, on Aug 26 2007, 11:34 PM, said:

i stand by my original assertion,on a treadmill the machine is pushing your foot backwards you are not pushing yourself forwards

not upset at all   However, it would seem this discovery is quite damaging to the work of Dr Newton  

Edited by MaxMTC, 27 August 2007 - 04:03 PM.

[brizza]

you are lifting your leg forward,the treadmill is pushing it back,it is not a discovery and may be new to you,maybe for your own reasons you want to run on a treadmill,impress your friends with a big puddle of sweat or something,i am finished with this thread and have to go training-briz

[Easy Tiger]

Dr JH said

Quote

I would have thought the main problem with doing speed work on a treadmill is that it doesn't go fast enough!

A treadmill at my gym goes up to 23km/h 2.36 per km. I've done a few interval sessions on the treadmill when i was being too much of a coward to go out in the pouring rain. I've done 5x1km with 2min rec in 2.36, even on a synthetic track i'd be smashing myself to keep the same session under 3min km's. I also did a session 20x400 on 2min cycle (57sec recovery) in 63sec very comfortably, on a synthetic track i think i could do the same for maybe 6 - 8 reps before collapsing. So for DrJH and others quicker than me it would not be anywhere near fast enough, but i've seen others try 23km/h and fall off the back in the 1st 100m, ie before it even reaches 23km/h.

Treadmill running can be good for a recovery session and possible benefits for practising increased cadence, also can be good for self assessing biomechanics if you have a mirror in front...well that's how i justify it to myself when i'm hiding inside from the elements. But, it's not running, it's just lifting your legs.  

Sorry Kev, it's a waste of time and only slightly harder than sitting on the lounge.

[SumDamGuy]

brizza, on Aug 27 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

there is no propulsive effort on a treadmill as a machine is doing all the work of forward componant leaving you to make the vertical effort which is in itself work but don't pretend that treadmill time is mileage.on the rare occasion i go to the gym i  see people on the treadmill and they are not sweating.-brizza

I seem to sweat on the tread mil everytime i use it at the gym and i get my heart rate going at a good pace.I wouldnt take the klms done as  gospel on the treamill tho as brixxa siad the machine is doing all the work for you

[SlingRunner]

I always struggle doing speedwork on treadmills. I think my leg turnover is low, hence running on a fast moving treadmill is a problem for me. Most of the time I have to touch the bar every few seconds because I am afraid to fall off the back !!

[victoralias]

Easy Tiger, on Aug 27 2007, 07:09 PM, said:

A treadmill at my gym goes up to 23km/h 2.36 per km. I've done a few interval sessions on the treadmill when i was being too much of a coward to go out in the pouring rain. I've done 5x1km with 2min rec in 2.36, even on a synthetic track i'd be smashing myself to keep the same session under 3min km's.

I'm trying to train my way through a foot problem at the moment so I've been looking at the possibility of some treadmill action. I'd assumed that you're right Easy Tiger and that running a given speed on treadmill would be significantly less hard than running that speed on the road or track but it would be interesting to have a more precise idea of the relationship. For instance, how fast do you need to run on a treadmill to expend the same energy that you would expend on the road running 20 kph?
If and when I get my hands on one I'll look into this. They flog a 22 kph one on ebay fairly cheaply I notice but I can't find one to hire that gets above 16 kph. I don't want to go to the gym to do my runs!

Kev, I'm sure there is some benefit to be derived from treadmill training but speedwork I'd venture is something that needs to be done the old fashioned way!

Edited by victoralias, 27 August 2007 - 08:20 PM.

[Chopper]

I run on a treadmill very rarely and find that the action is slightly different to road running in that I get tired in the muscles that move my legs forward more. The interesting aspect is that my heart rate running on a treadmill is slightly higher than for the same pace road running and I tire more quickly.

I've always assumed that heart rate was reasonably correlated with calorie usage, this may not be correct?

At any rate, there seems to be reasonable anecdotal evidence from people training exclusively on treadmills, who then going on to run solid road marathons to suggest that Brizza might be exaggerating his scientific observations.

Besides (spoken in jest) it was the 80s sports scientists that pushed carbo depletion on the jogging world - are we ready to trust them again yet?

[blondegirl]

Kev,
I've done over a dozen 1/2 marathons, and sometimes my speed work was on the treadmill. It worked for me. Not as well as on an outside track, but it can work. Depends what you want to achieve; finish or PB.

[sook54]

My experience on treadmill seems to be the opposite of a lot of people here. I find it harder than running outside - and my pace reflects that (i.e., it takes me longer to run 5km on the treadmill than 5km on the track). Another big drawback for me is that because I did a lot of treadmill running in the first half of this year, and the bar is at about the level where my hands would naturally swing, I got into the bad habit of holding my hands/arms too high.

I still like to do the odd treadmill run in the gym as my pre-weights warmup but I'm much happier running in the fresh air.

Linda

[MPHinLondon]

I used to do all my speedwork on the treadmill and actually enjoyed the constants that environment gave me. I did get faster though when I moved them to the track.

My preference is the track 100% of the time but sometimes it just isn't that easy.

[Cowgirl]

I find the treadmill allows me to do all my training when training would not be possible due to family/work committments.  I train for a half marathon long run through to speed work and found no difference in times really.
Just very happy I could still train and reach some goals.

[funky1]

I find that knowing how fast I am running on a treadmill makes me push myself harder and longer than if I ws outside. The only problem with this is that whenever I use a treadmill a few times close together, I get blisters on the ends of my toes, which I don't get running outside...

[victoralias]

sook54, on Aug 28 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

My experience on treadmill seems to be the opposite of a lot of people here. I find it harder than running outside - and my pace reflects that (i.e., it takes me longer to run 5km on the treadmill than 5km on the track).

Thats fascinating Linda. I REALLY need to know for myself what the story is now. I bet this is peculiar to my analytical bent of mind, but I wonder if anyone here has compared their heart rate at a given speed on a treadmill to their heart rate at this speed on the track or road? (Measuring your speed off the treadmill can prove difficult I know.) This is going to be one of the first tests I do and the key variable really. All things being equal, if the rates are the same then a treadmill workout should be no less difficult and in many ways no less productive... I may yet be wrong, but my expectation is that -at least in my case- it will prove easier to run on the treadmill.

Edited by victoralias, 28 August 2007 - 01:41 PM.

[SumDamChick]

in my very minimal experience, i have noted that running on the treadmill is quite different to running outdoors, the main difference i have noticed is that the treadmill seems to be cushioned... not only does this help the stress on the joints (terrific!) but i do find myself slightly propelled and able to run "easier"... how effectively this prepares you for running outdoors i do not know, but i do think its better to run on the treadmill if you are unable to run outdoors for what ever reason

[brizza]

there are benefits to running on a treadmill,it is still work,uses calories and will get your heart rate up,but the time spent on a treadmill is of limited value compared to running outside,if you want to run faster or longer with the least training then train smart,hill reps for example,you dont have to go far to find a suitable hill,practice good form and do time trials if you run marathons then the mileage must be done.training in a gym will make you better at training in a gym,if you want to run then.....run

[DianeE]

I run on a treadmill usually twice a week because often I can't get out for a run until after work/dinner/kids etc, and I won't run in the dark at night on my own.  So, I head to the gym and will do at least 45mins and sometimes up to an hour and a half on the treadmill.

Yes - it can be mind-numbingly boring!!  The sessions I do on the treadmill are always intervals or tempo runs where I change the pace every few minutes.

The benefit is
1.  I can do a hard run at night safely
2.  It does feel a little easier on the legs
3.  My leg turnover and heartrate on a treadmill is always higher than what it is for me to run the same pace out on the road - so my next road run always feels easier, or I feel like to can go faster.

Thankfully we have tvs at the gym in front of the treadmills so you can stick on the headphones and watch something other than the seconds and distance tick away!

[Bull]

Work commitments often prevent me from training during daylight hours, so I find myself running on the treadmill a lot more than I would prefer. I do try to limit my treadmill training to interval and tempo sessions but I do get stuck from time to time doing the more mundane easy paced sessions on it.

I read somewhere that it is always a good idea to set the treadmill on a 1 degree incline to get a similar benefit to a road workout.

Personally I find it more difficult to train on the treadmill and I have to work myself harder relative to what I would on the road. My running action just doesn't feel the same. I'm never really comfortable and have difficulty getting any kind of rythym. I have no idea about the scientific conclusions but from my own observations I feel that my running action on the treadmill is more upwards and my motion is being jerked backwards. On the road I feel that I have a more flowing and forward momentum.

Overall, I couldn't do the mileage I need to without a treadmill and it is an invaluable tool, especially in the winter months where the days are much shorter. However, it can never replace an outdoors run. After getting back on the road after a treadmill session, I certainly appreciate the more natural experience and being amongst the elements.

[Kev]

Thanks to everyone for the responses, great to hear all the different views.  Sorry for the late reply, computer has been down.

One comment I will make is that 5 weeks out from my 3rd marathon, and aged 49, I am finding that using the treadmill once a week after a long run, allows me to workout without agravating any soreness remaining from the long run.

Previously I could only do 3 runs a week, Sunday long (25 - 32) Wednesday Med (12 - 15) and Friday short (10km).  Using the treadmill I can squeeze in a fourth run, normally on the Tuesday, so even if the value is not the same as the track, it must be better than a rest day.

Thanks again

[MissCoCo]

Kev, despite what some may argue, you will still receive benefits from running on the treadmill.  Just wouldn't do it as my only form of training but there are still benefits in that you are raising your heart rate and if you are going hard at it then perhaps even more so than having a jog on the road.  I don't quite agree with Brizza's comment "training in a gym will make you better at training in a gym,if you want to run then.....run".
I recently read a report on one of the British national runners most hated training sessions which involves 7x3mins on the treadmill starting at 15km per hour pace and going up to 21km per hour with very short recovery.  When that's done a 10minute break before jumping back on and running at 19km per hour pace with the treadmill incline increased by one percent each minute, running to exhaustion where he runs up to about a 10-12 elevation, where pace then drops to about 6min per km pace.  While not a great fan of treadmill, I do use them from time to time. Like running on the road, its all relative, you can do both easy or as hard as you want.  I think some of the sceptics should try the session outlined a go and see if thats easy or not.  Keep up your training, you sound like youre doing ok.  Just crank up the pace on the treadmill gradually and enjoy.

[YumHallucinogens]

I don't know if this adds to the conversation, but...I'm sure I read somewhere recently that runners who are well adapted to running on the road struggle when they first run on a treadmill more so than people new to running. Seems it has something to with their ingrained proprioperception to a moving environment compared to novices. I think.

Yum

[blair]

I had to use a treadmill all last week and I hated every minute of it. I am convinced that I didn't get the same benefit as running on the road even though I was running for longer.

Also, I tried to do a 2hr 10min long run and the treadmill just stopped dead after 100min simply because it didn't have 5 digits for the time!

[Speedy Girl]

I've used them occasionally and whilst not a huge fan, did still get a good workout and don't think they affected nor had a negative affect on my running.  I know of someone who has recently taken up running in April although very fit through lots of cross training, biking, rpm workouts etc.  ALL training in the lead up to City to Surf was done on the treadmill including interval and tempo and long runs.  Achieved a 1st time ever city to surf result of 58 mins.  Not bad at all (pretty darn good I would say), for a 40 plus female.  She's now hard at it again on the treadmill and other cross training for the Blackmores half so I'll be looking out for that result.  Makes me begin to wonder if I should be scaling back some of my 6 sessions a week on the road by throwing in a couple of treadmill runs every couple of weeks.

[brizza]

i always enjoyed my running as a complete experience,even hill reps which were very hard work and involved gasping for air and extreme lactate build up were done under big mature trees andfresh air in a beautiful park,treadmill running is a very poor substitute for even the most impoverished running outside

[Kev]

brizza, on Sep 6 2007, 01:37 PM, said:

i always enjoyed my running as a complete experience,even hill reps which were very hard work and involved gasping for air and extreme lactate build up were done under big mature trees andfresh air in a beautiful park,treadmill running is a very poor substitute for even the most impoverished running outside

I couldn't agree more, but.........

There is a place for everything, and in a heavy program, where it is not always possible to drown in the wonders of nature, I think the treadmill has its place, as a supplement to the REAL running world.

After the drudgery of a treadmill session the next outdoor run will only seem better.

[brizza]

Kev, on Sep 6 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more, but.........

There is a place for everything, and in a heavy program, where it is not always possible to drown in the wonders of nature, I think the treadmill has its place, as a supplement to the REAL running world.

After the drudgery of a treadmill session the next outdoor run will only seem better.

i understand that,but my philosophy is that you should train hard and rest hard,optimise the time spent training to get the maximum benefit for the least time spent doing it,why tire yourself on the treadmill when you could have a recovery run or actually go training,a day off does no harm if there is a productive session on either side,train on a treadmill and there is little benefit,i'm glad you said REAL-briz

[Speedy Girl]

BriZ - clearly you don't get it that there are benefits.  Enjoy what you do and let others do the same

[brizza]

Speedy Girl, on Sep 6 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

BriZ - clearly you don't get it that there are benefits.  Enjoy what you do and let others do the same

i do get it that there are benefits read my posts above,i thoroughly enjoy what i do,but running is running and treadmill running is something else,i gave treadmill running a good go but it was no more beneficial than a good walk,in training i was around 56-57 mins for sixteen k's(thats how long ago-ten miles) and psychologically i'm not suited to gyms and understand people like them.running for me is sensual,spiritual and emotionally expansive,anyway i'll make no more comments on this topic-briz

[deadcat]

as usual the consensus is.. no consensus  

benefits and limitations for both, suits some people better than others etc etc

hey.. it might not be the perfect training but it's gotta be better than none, right?

[loubee]

deadcat, on Sep 6 2007, 05:14 PM, said:

as usual the consensus is.. no consensus  

benefits and limitations for both, suits some people better than others etc etc

hey.. it might not be the perfect training but it's gotta be better than none, right?

If my boys (1 & 3yrs) could just keep up with me running outdoors, no problem!   As they can't I do loads of treadmill running while they are in gym creche.
I really love doing a tempo run in the gym as it forces me too run harder than I often would if out on the road. I also do speed intervals and have cut my 10k time by 10 minutes in 6 months. As others have mentioned I also run faster on the road than on the tready.
I love running outdoors for all the reasons mentioned, but I love to run full stop and if the only chance to do so is in the gym then so be it.

[YumHallucinogens]

Ingrid Kristensen did stacks of training on the treadmill when she was preparing for WRs. I thought she used it only when it snowed, but she felt it enabled the ultimate tempo workout and used it even when the weather was good.

[deadcat]

"treadmills allow me to lose myself in the purest form of running.  On a treadmill it is just the simple, repetitive organic motion of running.  There is nothing to navigate, nowhere to get to-just running - and running fills me with the purest bliss of any sport" Christopher Bergland "The Athlete's Way".. a guy who's won the triple iron man 3 times.. so there  

oh, and i recommend the book too  

[Clairex444]

the replies before pretty well sum up my feelings fro running on a treadmill. i.e. good for some speed work, especaially when you want to work at a set pace. As for the extra sweating.  I read somewhere, and it makes sense, that it is because you have no air resistance. Even outside with no wind, there is still the air resistance you don't get on a treadmill, as in theory you are still stationery.  I find the treadmill goood for when it is hard to get motivated-cold and wet outside, but then I don't have to go to a gym to use one. I was talking to a girl the other week who was training for the boston marathon, and did all her long runs on a treadmill-32km. I would find this very boring and tedious, part of the enjoyment in long runs for me is the change of scenery.  I also wonder about injury prevention doing long runs on a treadmill?

[Mars]

Kev, on Aug 25 2007, 12:25 AM, said:

I have been using the treadmill for my speedwork and was wondering if anyone could comment on the value of this compared to running on the track.

I am training for the Melbourne Marathon and found that I recover from my speedwork quicker if I use the treadmill, with less chance of injury.  Also I find it easier to maintain a consistent fast interval pace.

Do you think there is the same training value as on the track?

Hi Kev I have found in the past that a treadmill session while better than nothing does not give as good training effect as running across the ground.

I think the treadmill makes it easier for you, and if you think about it there is a big difference between running on a surface that isn't moving compared to one that is.

That is from a leg standpoint. From the cardio side, a treadmill obviously does give your heart a good workout, but no more so than actual running along the ground.

Cheers,

Mars

[Speedy Girl]

Kev, there appears to be no concensus on this issue in spite of the fact of evidence of benefits attested by elite athletes of world standard.  Best you do what works for you and if it's reducing the risk of injury then that in itself is a benefit as consistency in training is one of the keys to success.

Whilse Mars makes the comment that a "treadmill obviously does give your heart a good workout, but no more so than actual running along the ground."  Well that also depends on how quickly your actually running on the ground and if it's a jog then it could be argued that the benefits would not be any much better at all.  Basically its all relative to the intensity one puts into it over the other.

Cheers and Good luck in Melbourne.

[serena]

Been reading this thread - I have been thinking about acquiring a treadmill somehow; anyone using one now? I am having a hard time escaping small kids to get out for a run when my husband is travelling. Just wondering if anyone out there is using one and finding its good for keeping up lots of kms -- or not?

serena

[Mick]

serena, on Apr 23 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

Been reading this thread - I have been thinking about acquiring a treadmill somehow; anyone using one now? I am having a hard time escaping small kids to get out for a run when my husband is travelling. Just wondering if anyone out there is using one and finding its good for keeping up lots of kms -- or not?

I still use mine about once a week, usually because a) need to be close to kids b) its dark outside or c) I want to accurately measure speed.

I have setup in garage next to window, fan and usually watch a DVD or listen to music. I don't have easy access to a track, flat ground, or a garmin, so I use it for 1km intervals with 500m recovery (warm up for 2km first, then do 6-8 sets of these). Just recently I started doing some Marathon Pace work where I set at constant speed and hold for 60-90 minutes.

The tready certainly gets heart rate and breathing going like the real thing, but  unless you are doing just for fitness I would still recommend doing the real thing as well.

[Bellthorpe]

'Accurately measure speed'?

Treadmills vary enormously in their speed readings. They're not at all accurate.