36 replies to this topic

[Andrew(ajh)]

I bought my first road bike last April and am loving it. When I bought it I just got standard flat pedals as I decided I'd get used to the bike, before trying to use proper cleated bike shoes and pedals (I've never used these).

It is one of my goals for this year to convert over to proper cleated pedals. I actually went to my local bike shop last week and order some Shimano shoes and pedals.

My question is, do you think I should delay this conversion until after the BRW Tri in March (my first ever tri). I'm thinking that given the short distance of the ride, I probably won't gain too much time with the new pedals (given they'll be fairly new to me), and if I stick with my current pedals I'll make up some time on T2 because I won't have to change shoes.

I've also heard that the mounting area for the bikes can be a bit of a high traffic area and that even experienced "cleated" riders sometimes come to grief.

I'm a bit nervous about the tri, primarily the swim, but also getting the transition stuff done properly (seems to be lots of rules and regs) - and think maybe having one less thing to worry about (new pedals) may be good.

What do you experienced tri-ers' think ? Change now, or delay until after BRW ?

[vat]

Andrew(ajh), on Jan 8 2008, 07:47 PM, said:

My question is, do you think I should delay this conversion until after the BRW Tri in March (my first ever tri). I'm thinking that given the short distance of the ride, I probably won't gain too much time with the new pedals (given they'll be fairly new to me), and if I stick with my current pedals I'll make up some time on T2 because I won't have to change shoes.

I'm not an experienced tri-er but having been forced on to the bike from running I'd have to say convert to cleats as soon as possible. You will not believe the difference - the ability to pull as well as push (wait 'til your first decent climb) is amazing. You're simply more efficient, as there is little wasted motion when pedalling.

[blair]

You'll probably want to spend lots and lots of time getting used to them before using them in a race from what I've heard.

I went for something in the middle - toe clips that I can wear normal shoes with and just slip my toes into. Definitely much better than without.

[SpartaJen]

Change now. Don't put off the inevitable - your fear of cleats is only going to increase over time. You will fall off because of them - that is a fact of life. But you will very quickly get used to them. Having watched many tris over the years, the dismounting area can get very busy but if you get in lots of practice before the big day, you'll be ok.

Do you have a trainer? If so, stick the bike in it & practice clicking in & out of your cleats in front of the telly for 20mins every night. You'll quickly get used to it.

Good luck !

[rohan]

horses for courses.

flat pedals for short tris. cleats for longer tris.

answers that apply for long tris do not always apply at short distances, and i am continually amazed that so many triathletes have a one-approach-fits-all attitude.

you don't see marathon runners using spikes.

flat pedals allow for less shoe changes, faster running through transitions, faster bike mount, and only a smidge slower bike time.
(max of 2.5secs/km for me under short ride conditions)

[sneakergal]

Change to cleats immediately! I can't believe you've gone with flats for so long. There is a huge difference just by the fact that your motion is doubled. Practice in the car park, or even on grass and you will find them easy after a few tries. I have been doing training with cleats for years and *touch wood* have never come off. Just keep your mind focused everytime you pull up at lights, gutters etc to unclip well before you stop. In transition, you can pedal a fair way safely without having to clip in just by balancing your feet on top of the pedals. This helps to get out of the crowd.

BUT in saying all of that, you have to be comfortable. Being nervous on the day is not going to help

[tank girl]

A few years ago a tri that was part of the world series had a disproportionately short bike leg and ALL of the Australian competitors used flat pedals with toe straps (which only take a few seconds to tighten but can be oh so nasty to get out of) to save transition time. BRW is definitely a disproportionately short bike leg (10km compared to a 4km run leg).

That said, you have plenty of time to get used to cleats before your race. The day before my first tri, I clipped my tri bars on, and it was pissing down rain, so I practised in the basement of my building (very small!) run, mount, pedal, feet in, drop onto bars, turn a tiny little 180, sit up, feet out of shoes, running dismount... it doesn't take much.

[Jason M]

Go with the cleats. Spend a week practicing your skills (getting in and out, balance etc). Then you should be right. They are just skills, easy to learn with a little effort, then over time should become second nature.

Leads to much more efficient cycling, ie. more power throughout the stroke, compared to the flat pedals.

[miners]

Jason M, on Jan 9 2008, 05:45 AM, said:

Go with the cleats. Spend a week practicing your skills (getting in and out, balance etc). Then you should be right. They are just skills, easy to learn with a little effort, then over time should become second nature.

Leads to much more efficient cycling, ie. more power throughout the stroke, compared to the flat pedals.

... which also amounts to a better run leg on fresher legs.

Rohan and I have disagreed on this one before. However, I believe if you're properly set-up for the short distance tris (proper tri shoes - trained yourself with quick entry/exit from the shoes etc..), the cleats will beat the flat pedals hands down every time, no matter how short the distance. The only example I've ever seen where the contrary was true was Hamish Carter during the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne. However, this was due to the fact the bike leg was a procession and only acted as a very long transition from the swim to run legs of that particular race.

Having said that, I wouldn't bother with changing to cleats *specifically* for the BRW - it's not so much a race, as more of a social occasion. However, if you're keen on sticking with cycling in the long term, definitely change to the cleats asap

[rohan]

miners, on Jan 8 2008, 09:04 PM, said:

Rohan and I have disagreed on this one before.

yeah and you're still wrong...

but for andrew, for this specific tri, weigh up the max of 2.5secs/km lost on the bike using flat pedals against the length of the transition areas, shoe changes etc. and make up your own mind. just don't do something because you see macca doing it.

long term though, if you want to do longer rides/races you are going to want to use cleats.

[Mango]

miners, on Jan 9 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

However, if you're keen on sticking with cycling in the long term, definitely change to the cleats asap.

rohan, on Jan 9 2008, 08:14 AM, said:

long term though, if you want to do longer rides/races you are going to want to use cleats.

Rohan, I believe you just agreed with miners

Andrew, make the change to cleats. You won't look back after you get comfortable using them.

[Sunset]

change to cleats straight away.

When I first got my road bike I had planned to ride for a month or so to get used to it, and then get into cleats but the cycling coach told me to do it straight away. So I had about 2 or so rides without them before changing to them.

Yes, your heart will thud in your chest as you near traffic lights wondering if you are going to have to stop, but the feeling goes away. You'll get used to them quick enough

[Muzman]

miners, on Jan 9 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

short distance tris

"Short ... distance ... tris"???

They have them now?

[rohan]

Mango, on Jan 8 2008, 09:35 PM, said:

Rohan, I believe you just agreed with miners

never denied the usefulness of cleats for long events...
sigh.

[NvrGiveUp]

rohan, on Jan 9 2008, 08:14 AM, said:

yeah and you're still wrong...

but for andrew, for this specific tri, weigh up the max of 2.5secs/km lost on the bike using flat pedals against the length of the transition areas, shoe changes etc. and make up your own mind. just don't do something because you see macca doing it.

long term though, if you want to do longer rides/races you are going to want to use cleats.

Agreeing with Rohan here.

imho cleats arent necessary for this particular tri considering the distance of the bike leg and the time involved in the transition areas.

Definitely use cleats if you will be looking to do longer rides (either for triathlons or other) later on. but i would not go out buying cleats just for the brw.

Cheers

[FakePlasticTrees]

Muzman, on Jan 9 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

"Short ... distance ... tris"???

They have them now?

I thought all distances were short in tris?

[rohan]

FakePlasticTrees, on Jan 8 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

I thought all distances were short in tris?

ultraman

[Colin]

Remember Rohan is a minimalist

He will also argue that you don't require a better bike than a Malvern Star for IM , horses for courses of course... if it suits your needs go with it.

Another thing the cleats (or other hard cycling shoe in toe clip to an extent) does is that it takes the pressure off the foot ... which will both help riding and the subsequent running.
I don't know where the arbitrary 2.5sec comes from, but over 20km that would be at least 50 sec, long enough to put on shoes. Would you be riding shorter than that.

I have been using cleats since 1988, still have the orioginal Look's on my older bike.

btw, don't be scared of traffic lights (yep I know most cleat incidents are low speed), just practise to balance on the bike. I rarely dismount at traffic lights... sometimes even stand for 5min.. just to impress the motorists

Edited by Colin, 09 January 2008 - 09:56 AM.

[thomo]

rohan, on Jan 8 2008, 09:40 PM, said:

horses for courses.

flat pedals for short tris. cleats for longer tris.

answers that apply for long tris do not always apply at short distances, and i am continually amazed that so many triathletes have a one-approach-fits-all attitude.

you don't see marathon runners using spikes.

flat pedals allow for less shoe changes, faster running through transitions, faster bike mount, and only a smidge slower bike time.
(max of 2.5secs/km for me under short ride conditions)

miners, on Jan 9 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

Having said that, I wouldn't bother with changing to cleats *specifically* for the BRW - it's not so much a race, as more of a social occasion. However, if you're keen on sticking with cycling in the long term, definitely change to the cleats asap

rohan, on Jan 9 2008, 10:32 AM, said:

ultraman

I agree with Miners and Rohan. Race/enjoy BRW triathlon experience. You will not do the "BRW wabble".

As have mentioned to our triathlon newbie on a another tri subject related to this. Just enjoy don't go spending your hard earned just to fit in with "the stereo type" triathlete.

Rohan has shown you don't need to spend a squillon on triathlons to be competitive and enjoy your self. Just spend enough to have a functional kit.

Later you may want to go the whole hog if you get bitten by the tri-bug.

So some people think triathlons are easy and short. Must of only ever been off road.

Edited by thomo, 09 January 2008 - 09:59 AM.

[FakePlasticTrees]

rohan, on Jan 9 2008, 10:32 AM, said:

ultraman

I meant the alleged distances being measured accurately. How far is 10k really?

[thomo]

FakePlasticTrees, on Jan 9 2008, 11:30 AM, said:

I meant the alleged distances being measured accurately. How far is 10k really?

Okay, now you are on to something.

2000 Olympics. Course 100% accurate.

Why, I believe Action part of the process. If not Dave Cundy certainly would of been.

2004 Olympics, Dave Cundy would proably have measure the triathlon course along with marathon and walks courses.

Other events. I am not sure if they use the drive /ride / GPS on the course method.

So FPT we are in agreement on that subject.

Yes if all those sub 29/30 minute 10kms were real we would have so many gun track / road running stars.

Edited: Forgot should of got all in a huff because not on topic.

I must report myself.

Edited by thomo, 09 January 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[EverReadyBunny]

Well this one has created a host of opinions.

I am right where you are at the moment. Currently riding without cleats but been advised I need to change over to cleats. I agree with that and have a pair at home to practise with but I am also a bit worried about using them too.

I think you should change over to cleats from general riding just because you will need to do this at some point. If you are worried and not confident with the cleats don't feel any pressure to use them in the BRW Tri. I have done it twice and both times without cleats and it isn't any trouble. The course can be quite crowded so you probably won't get up to full speed regardless.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[SlowDave]

tank girl, on Jan 9 2008, 12:25 AM, said:

A few years ago a tri that was part of the world series had a disproportionately short bike leg and ALL of the Australian competitors used flat pedals with toe straps (which only take a few seconds to tighten but can be oh so nasty to get out of) to save transition time. BRW is definitely a disproportionately short bike leg (10km compared to a 4km run leg).

Yep I'd agree with this. If you're a newbie to tri's then clipless isn't going to make match difference to you. Pedals with toe straps and runners is the go.

The mount point for the bike at BRW is carnage, and whatever race a week or so before is the same as potential BRWers have a practice (and is highly entertaining ). Anything you can do to reduce your involvement in that carnage is recommended. If you've got toe straps and runners, head up the road an extra 10 or 20 metres to get out of the mess before you get on.

[miners]

rohan, on Jan 9 2008, 07:14 AM, said:

yeah and you're still wrong...

rohan, on Jan 9 2008, 07:14 AM, said:

just don't do something because you see macca doing it.

good point. You'd end up with 37 melanomas before you'd ever get a tan like his

[Andrew(ajh)]

Thanks for all the advice guys (and gals).

I am definitely getting shoes and proper pedals (they are already on order) - I know that is the right thing to do for my cycling, but am still undecided what I will do for the BRW - if the shoes and pedals come in soon I'll get them fitted and see how I go, I can always put the flats back on for the tri.

Thanks again.

[Mickey]

March is eons away! You should have plenty of time to become comfortable on the clips. I went to clips straight away on my first bike and never had any problems, and now I find it feels very odd to ride a bike without clips.

There is often debate over whether to leave the shoes clipped onto the bike, and slip your feet in and out of them while riding. In my first Tri I did a combination, wearing my shoes out to the mounting point and then clipping in, but on the way back in slipping out of my shoes on the bike and running into transition in my socks.

Mike

[JeffP]

I use flats and cleated pedals on the mtn bike depending upon the race and training type. When your doing a shorter session and not wanting to change shoes then "PowerGrip" straps are a good compromise. They keep the ball of my foot fairly well placed over the pedal, allow some uplift, and improve your pedal placement confidence which bouncing/jumping.

http://powergrips.mr..._benefits.shtml

Would recommend anyone with a men's size 9+ shoe to order the 'long' straps. My size 9.5 Asics 2120's need nearly all of the standard strap length.

ciao, Jeff.

[pastyboy]

Rohan is right on this one. Go with the flat pedals. And I'd even suggest wearing runners on the bike.

Because it is BRW, and the transition area is soooo Huge, there is a far bit of running with the bike through transition to the mount line where you can get on your bike. The bike course is so short (10km), and the run even shorter (3km), that the time you take to change shoes in T2 is wasted time.

Quote

The mount point for the bike at BRW is carnage

Yep, that is what happens when you have 5,200 entrants in one event.

If you were racing a longer event, then I would suggest going with cleats, but because it is BRW, there is no real advantage.

[Big Pete]

Rohan and Pasty are a pair of wooses with no idea - the correct answer is cleats with the shoes attached to the pedals. Run through transition in bare feet and slip into the shoes on the fly like a real triathlon man. Will it make you any faster? Probably not. Will you look cool? Definitely - and isn't that what BRW is all about...?!

[pastyboy]

Pete is right, looks cool. And he has the scars from the crash while trying it the first time in a race to prove it!

[rohan]

Big Pete, on Jan 10 2008, 11:55 PM, said:

Rohan and Pasty are a pair of wooses with no idea - the correct answer is cleats with the shoes attached to the pedals. Run through transition in bare feet and slip into the shoes on the fly like a real triathlon man. Will it make you any faster? Probably not. Will you look cool? Definitely - and isn't that what BRW is all about...?!

... and if big pete is who i think he is, then he will advise riding the whole thing on the big chainring and using an 11-23 rear cassette, but believing that one should only use the 11 on that course.

he will also advise that cervelo is the only way to fly and will be happy to discuss different grades of carbon and which disc wheel makes the best sound.

[Big Pete]

maybe...
...and if Rohan is who I think HE is he will come out of the water in gazillionth place, work his way through the bike field like a dose of epsom salts and then mercilessly mow the remaining athletes down on the run leg like a scene from "Gallipoli". Bloody runners!!

[brizza]

pastyboy, on Jan 11 2008, 10:57 AM, said:

Pete is right, looks cool. And he has the scars from the crash while trying it the first time in a race to prove it!

scars are great,i keep telling my son that girls love scars,me and brad pit have that in common-scars that is

[rohan]

... let me just add this...

Quote

1 412 Rohan Day Swim 02:27.5 T1 01:30.2 Bike 18:52.9 T2 00:59.9 Run 09:42.0 Total 0:33:32.7

done with flat pedals and runners. also done sans aero bars. (half a kilo of crap on the handlebars when you're in the last wave and know you'll spend your time dodging erratic kids).

put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!

full results here for those who like to analyze figures. (bear in mind that due to rough weather conditions, all under 18 age groups did not swim)

[Andrew(ajh)]

rohan, on Jan 20 2008, 08:13 PM, said:

... let me just add this...
done with flat pedals and runners. also done sans aero bars. (half a kilo of crap on the handlebars when you're in the last wave and know you'll spend your time dodging erratic kids).

put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!

full results here for those who like to analyze figures. (bear in mind that due to rough weather conditions, all under 18 age groups did not swim)

Well done today Rohan, that was an awesome time given the rotten conditions. It was my first tri - after a disastrous swim leg, I finished about 15 minutes slower than you.

I stuck with the flat pedals for today, and am awfully glad I did. At one point during the ride a strong gust of wind pushed me into the gutter and if I had my feet connected to the pedals, I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to save myself like I did.

After this post I'm going to start another thread about the ocean swim and the conditions today - I'd love your opinion.

[thomo]

rohan, on Jan 20 2008, 08:13 PM, said:

... let me just add this...

QUOTE
1 412 Rohan Day Swim 02:27.5 T1 01:30.2 Bike 18:52.9 T2 00:59.9 Run 09:42.0 Total 0:33:32.7

done with flat pedals and runners. also done sans aero bars. (half a kilo of crap on the handlebars when you're in the last wave and know you'll spend your time dodging erratic kids).

put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!

full results here for those who like to analyze figures. (bear in mind that due to rough weather conditions, all under 18 age groups did not swim)

On the bike was that riding with the kids in the trailer

[NvrGiveUp]

hi
just thought id revisit this thread. I ended up switching to cleats. Did two lots of 30kms rides in the last two weeks and riding with cleats helped alot!!

I did do a 30km ride with toe straps (or shoe straps). not as comfy as cleats in the end.

However for the sprint tri i will most likely still use the toe straps (or shoe straps) simply because i couldnt be bothered fiddling around with shoes etc during the transitions.
Cheers