199 replies to this topic

[knassy]

Unfortunately, the extent of my Lydiard reading has been two pdfs from the Lydiard foundation website.

A lecture, and this pdf which I'm guessing is a kind of summary.

What I don't understand is the high mileage maintained through the hill and anaerobic development? Obviously, there is a decrease to freshen up at the end, but how is the mileage kept up through these phases? Is it kept up towards 100mi?

Nothing I've scratched up on the net has given me a satisfying answer. I'll have a look through those Lydiard links and hopefully find something there.

[RichEnglehart]

knassy, on Jan 30 2008, 05:35 AM, said:

Unfortunately, the extent of my Lydiard reading has been two pdfs from the Lydiard foundation website.

A lecture, and this pdf which I'm guessing is a kind of summary.

What I don't understand is the high mileage maintained through the hill and anaerobic development? Obviously, there is a decrease to freshen up at the end, but how is the mileage kept up through these phases? Is it kept up towards 100mi?

Nothing I've scratched up on the net has given me a satisfying answer. I'll have a look through those Lydiard links and hopefully find something there.

The mileage would stay fairly high during the hill phase. If you do the hill sessions exactly as Lydiard describes them they end up being fairly long, I think a bit beyond 20km and he had people doing that four or five times a week at first. Later that came down to maybe 2-3 hill sessions a week.
Anyway, in the hill phase, you might keep in a long weekend run, say two hours, and perhaps a midweek run of 90 minutes or so.  If the hill sesions themselves are taking 75-90 minutes you're still doing pretty good volume and there is always Lydiard's advice to do a second session of "supplementary jogging."
As you move to the anaerobic phase you still would keep in the weekend run of two hours or so and the midweek 90ish minute run and the supplementary jogging.
The thing to remember is that as you move to the later phases accumulating mileage, uh, kilometerage (?) isn't the goal. You want to get the hill sessions and later the anaerobic sessions in so if you need to shorten the volume on some other days to recover you'd do it.

[Chelli]

Easy Tiger, on Jan 29 2008, 07:25 PM, said:

Chelli, big km's take no time at all compared to speed sessions. eg i just did a speed session which took close to 3 hours from start to finish. Yesterday i did 24km's in 1hr40min, plus 30min for drills, strides and stretches. I know several runners who have intense jobs, have kids and study who still find time to train twice a day. Yes, this is extraordinary, and these people are inspirational. Of course time is a limiting factor, how you decide to prioritise your time is up to you. Planning is crucial, just do it Chelli...you know you want to.

My speed sessions only last 40-60minutes. I usually only do a quick 5 minute jog and a few run throughs to get the blood pumping.

I can complete my favourite session of 1 km intervals in less than 40 minutes even when I do 8 or 9 intervals as I usually only take a 60 second recovery between intervals. I usually run them in 3:10 - 3:15 or around 3-5km pace. This training seems to give me the best results for 10km racing as it makes me mentally tough in around 6-8km when I am struggling to hold my pace. I usually walk about 5 km home as a recovery afterwards.  I do these around the 2.4km course on the road when I finish work. It is marked out every 200 metres so I know exactly where the 1 km markers are.

I guess I find it tough to cover much more than 80 km in a week because I usually run hard on a Tuesday and Thursday and find it tough to run long on a Wednesday. I usually only run beyond 1hr on a Sunday morning if I haven't raced on the Saturday then I will shorten the Sunday run. I also find getting 8 hours sleep for me is crucial and I don't like getting up before 5am as I have to get ready for work at 5:30am so I never train in the morning during the week as I would be too tired and would have to get up at 4:30am.

[1902]

I believe that there are a few important points that I think need to be included in this discussion.

• 160 km per week of steady aerobic running during the marathon conditioning phase is a figure that Arthur found to get the BEST result after much experimentation and experience on himself and runners he trained.
  
• The conditioning phase is based on running daily for a certain time. Once this was mastered and conditioning improved the schedule is changed to cover set distance.
  
• Arthur's training was aimed at runners who wanted to reach their best potentially. However it was just applicable to the club runners as an international runner.
  
• The marathon conditioning phase of the training is the foundation of training. We have a far greater capacity to improve the pace we can maintain for the duration of a race by increasing our aerobic capacity, than by training our anaerobic system.
  
• The best and safest way to increase aerobic conditioning is train a a level below your maximum aerobic capacity.

The greatest benefit of following Arthur Lydriard's training is that Arthur explains what changes will occur to your body, how me you will feel and what will be the final benefits.

From my personnel experience following these training principles has allowed me to compete at my best potential and allowed to perform better at longer distances than runners that where significantly faster than me ( in terms of basis speed) at shorter distances.

[Chelli]

1902, on Jan 31 2008, 05:04 PM, said:

I believe that there are a few important points that I think need to be included in this discussion.

• 160 km per week of steady aerobic running during the marathon conditioning phase is a figure that Arthur found to get the BEST result after much experimentation and experience on himself and runners he trained.
  
• The conditioning phase is based on running daily for a certain time. Once this was mastered and conditioning improved the schedule is changed to cover set distance.
  
• Arthur's training was aimed at runners who wanted to reach their best potentially. However it was just applicable to the club runners as an international runner.
  
• The marathon conditioning phase of the training is the foundation of training. We have a far greater capacity to improve the pace we can maintain for the duration of a race by increasing our aerobic capacity, than by training our anaerobic system.
  
• The best and safest way to increase aerobic conditioning is train a a level below your maximum aerobic capacity.

The greatest benefit of following Arthur Lydriard's training is that Arthur explains what changes will occur to your body, how me you will feel and what will be the final benefits.

From my personnel experience following these training principles has allowed me to compete at my best potential and allowed to perform better at longer distances than runners that where significantly faster than me ( in terms of basis speed) at shorter distances.

Yeah I agree with this method but I reckon it would take at least 1 -2 years to be able to build properly up to this mileage without overtraining. I believe you should only build your base training up by 5% a week and even then you should cut back every 4th week to let the body adapt to the training load then step up the mileage slightly further for another 3 weeks.

Everyone has a base training load they can manage per week before they start to get injured or too fatigued. At this stage it is time to back off before building up again as you will be either injured or overtrained.

There could be a number of reasons why athletes get injured whilst building up the mileage. Athletes require to run those distances need to be doing alot of things in there lifestyle right. They would require at least 8-9 hours sleep a night to help recover from the training demands in order to adapt to that sort of training level.

They need a good balance of nutrients to help the body heal and get stronger as well.

Proper hydration is important for an athlete running those sort of distances. As build up of dehydration will affect how the athlete recovers and weaken his joints and muscles.

A significant increase in vitamins and minerals are essential as well. This is because a lot of miles causes alot of free radical damage to the body system.

Other factors to consider are an increase in calcium for the bones.

A higher intake of iron as there is alot of red blood cell destruction from the pounding.

A high intake of zinc for stress and hormone levels

A higher intake of magnesium and potassium for the muscles

A higher intake of Vitamin E to combat pollution intake and free radical damage

A very high amount of vitamin C so the body has a high resistance to infection and also for other essential nutritients to have a significant role in the body system.

B group vitamins to provide the body with energy and good health.

The list goes on.

So if an athlete is going to train that sort of mileage they should be in good health or think wisely about how to look after themselves to be successful at training at that sort of level. I say good luck to the few that can train at that level for some period of time.

[Horrie]

Thanks to 1902 for giving us your insights into this training method. After doing this training for 6 weeks I am already starting to feel the benefits. It obviously served you well as your results speak for themselves.

Thanks also to Chelli for adding some valuable information to this thread. You are right when you talk about the impact this training has on your body. I might try some of the things you mentioned. I'm sure my body will appreciate it.

[Mars]

B+, on Jan 29 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

Hey Horrie,

If you are responding to my question, I was actually asking along the lines of once people had completed the base phase of the program, what do they do next....
The main reason I ask is that the Lydiard approach is usually limited in discussions to the 100mile/160km factor, and I know that whilst this is the cornerstone to the success of the program the progression to race specific work is very rarely discussed as most times the debate degenerates into a high mileage vs low mileage argument only.
If I have run through the base phase and am ready to go forward from there what do I do next?

After the base conditioning 160k per week phase of 6-12 weeks....

Hill Phase 4 weeks.

Do the hill springing + the other stuff in the evening session. 3 times per week (yes in early days it was 6 days straight) Feel free to jog easy 60 minutes in the morning. Sunday just do the long 35km run - no hills.

Arthur told me on the phone under no circumstances reduce this hill phase to say 3 weeks or 2 weeks. It is one of the key secrets of the whole program this stuff. The conditioning phase gets you strong enough to handle this ballistic springing up the hill with high knees and ANKLE DRIVE and straight back leg. He said this phase is one of the secrets to success. Don't cut corners on it. Follow the instructions. (refer below for book reference)

Anaerobic phase 4 weeks.

Has 3 anaerobic (reps of between 200m to 1600m) 3 times per week. Other days have other stuff. Mileage not super important. Still do the 35km on the Sunday. Jog easy in the morning for an hour if you like. Mileage not as important during this 4 week period but always good to keep up the jogging in the morning for up to an hour to maintanin hard earnt condition from the base phase.

Race time trial phase 4 weeks

Ditto. Jog early morning. Long 35 on Sunday. Race or time trial twice per week for 4 weeks on say Wednesday night and race on Saturday. This is crucial to race or time trial over race distance or 3/4 race distance or 1/2 race distance twice per week. If marathon is goal, do 5k 10k or 21k races or time trials. These twic weekly races and time trials hone you to the objective. It's all about the objective remember and you practice twice a week for four weeks running at race pace objective. This is crucial.

4 weeks out from the goal day, do a time trial over the race distance or 80-90% thereof at the speed you intend to run on race day. Dress rehearsal.

Taper Phase - 2 weeks.

Like it suggest it is low mileage but there is a process set for it. do the process and jog easy for 60 mins in the morning if you like.

One week out from big race day, do a time trial over half the race distance. This is gold.

Easy jog the day before the big race for 30 mins. Rest the day before that. So if race Sunday, rest Friday, easy jog Saturday. It wakes the legs up a bit. This is another secret.

Have 300g of honey during the 24 hour period before the big race. That is just a big gold secret for getting glycogen stores into the body so your race day is successful. Honey is a pure food.

Love Mars.

PS any other questions get this book, which was one of the last published, and incorporated many things learnt over the years by Arthur. It is called "Distance Running for Masters" by Lydiard and Gilmour. Go to Dymocks and get them to order it in for you. They will do it. It has a picture of Barry Magee on the cover. Barry signed my copy for me when I went to visit him in Auckland.

It has all the instructions for what to do in each phase as discussed above for many different distances from 800 up to Marathon to have you peaking right on the day.

Great to hear Horrie has been in touch with Barry Magee.

[superflake]

Mars is the book Distance training for masters not running?

I found this one on www.angusrobertson.com.au

Distance Training for Masters
LYDIARD, ARTHUR
One of the most significant evolutions in modern sport has been the emergence of world-class performances by master athletes. Over a wide range of sport -- athletes who, in the past, would have stopped their activities in their thirties or younger, now carry on. In "Distance Training for Masters," Lydiard and co-author Garth Gilmour present the formula and the philosophy to enable the older athlete, man or woman, elite athlete or social competitor, to aim for new goals in sporting endeavor.

Price: $ 35.99 AUD EA


It says ships in 7 days but can take up to 28 days.

[B+]

Mars, thanks for the reply on the phases after the base phase, it all makes very interesting reading. It is amazing really how most people are always looking for a gimmick or short cut to be successful in their quests, but the more you talk and read things about successful people or methods two things stand out, simplicity and hard, consistent work.
Also thanks for the book reference I will be buying this as a ready reference over the next year and onwards.

Train safe

[Bellthorpe]

Not too many reviews of Distance Training for Masters at Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/27myud and they're mixed.

I'm a big fan of Lydiard, and basically follow his standard programme, except that I run in kilometres what he suggests in miles.

I first became aware of Lydiard's methods when I read 'The Self-Made Olympian' by Ron Daws many years ago.

The only other thing is the addition of drills (I'll send a document to anyone who asks) and practice bringing the rear leg up, which is definitely one attribute on which we older runners fall apart.

[B+]

Sign me up Bellthorpe!!

Thank you

[Luckylegs]

....this 'older runner' also signed on, Bellthorpe.

Thank you.   LL

[Whippet Man]

Bellthorpe, on Feb 2 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

I'm a big fan of Lydiard, and basically follow his standard programme, except that I run in kilometres what he suggests in miles.

I like this idea, Bellthorpe. I've long considered 100km to be my 100 mile equivalent.

Quote

The only other thing is the addition of drills (I'll send a document to anyone who asks) and practice bringing the rear leg up, which is definitely one attribute on which we older runners fall apart.

Can you count me in as well, please?


And thanks Mars for the elaboration.

Edited by Whippet Man, 02 February 2008 - 07:40 PM.

[Davo]

I also, grammatically correct or not, please Bellthorpe.


Mars, how do you have the honey? Just pure off a spoon, or on toast.....or does it matter?
What about honey immediately (by which I mean at least an hour) before a run?

[Luckylegs]

Quote

Have 300g of honey during the 24 hour period before the big race. That is just a big gold secret for getting glycogen stores into the body so your race day is successful. Honey is a pure food.

.

Thanks Mars!  Nor often I can add to or comment on a thread as good as this one,  but........

strange as it may seem from this 'older runner' (!), I always have honey during the 24 hours before a marathon or longer run.

I use "MEDIHONEY ACTIVE+, MANUKA HONEY"  375gNet & eat it straight from the spoon during the 24 hours prior to a marathon & then on toast a couple of hours before the race.  Most Pharmacies keep it & some Supermarkets too.  It says on the jar : "10+ Antibacterial Activity"......sounds good!

Hope that helps, Davo!  LL

Edited by Luckylegs, 02 February 2008 - 09:04 PM.

[Bellthorpe]

To all those who asked for documents ... none of you has sent me your email address! As far as I can see, I can't send attachments to email sent via the CR interface, and not all of you have enabled CR email.

Just email me at craig at singmail dot com for a copy.

[Rudolf]

I am glad that honey came out, I did not know about Lydiard advising about it as well, but it makes sense that inteligent person as Lydiard was, would not go for a pasta trap, but will choose the real food.

I usually go for raw organic honey, about $12 from organic shop for 1 kg,
I prefer to have it with hot water and lemon, rehydrating along the way.

Lot was said about the ability to peak at a DATE and train the whole year for THAT DATE, how confusing it looks from this point to follow Busters all year around out of season racing and records, and than watch him suffer at the major championship.

[Mars]

Rudolf that is music to my ears.

Yes I agree with you on Buster. Great athlete but not always on the right day.

The honey thing. Davo in the 24 hours e.g. before marathon on Sunday morning, I have it on toast the day before, straight off the spoon before bed. Morning of race I wake up 4 hours before race time and have some honey on toast, then pop back in to bed. No food for me within 4 hours of race. Then I get up at 6am and have some final honey off the spoon, have a shower, get down to the start.

Never had a problem on race day. I do however have big pasta lunch day before, and pizza for dinner night before.

Just my ritual everyone is different. Honey throughout the whole 24 hour period though before the race. 300 grams of honey that is quite alot but you get through it over a day.

Superflake yes I am holding my copy right here it is "Distance Training for Masters" - It is one of his latest published books in 2000 published by Meyer and Meyer Sport UK.

I have one other Gold Nugget on the nutrition thing. When I was having dinner with Barry Magee back in 2005, he told me a secret. Arthur used to tell Barry's good friend Murray Halberg to drink 2 litres of milk per day. Murray won gold medal in 5000m Rome Olympics 1960.

Remember these guys were doing miles like there was no tomorrow.

The milk has calcium and magnesium in the right balance. You need the magnesium to absorb the calcium. Milk has it in the right balance. It goes along way to reducing muscle soreness from the running and tranquilises the muscles and gives you a great sleep.

Arthur mentioned it off the cuff one day to Barry late in his life and Barry confirmed it with Murray. Murray used to chug the stuff down like there was no tomorrow and he had excellent powers of recovery from hard training.

So it's milk and honey all the way.

Love Mars.

PS re the book reviews. I can assure you there is enormous value in getting this book to see how to put your program together for any distance from 800 to Marathon and has many common sense suggestions which will save you time and this book is completely without bullsh#t because it is all based on the practical experiences of Arthur training champions and cardiac patients for 40 years.

From the book;

"The world's first joggers were a bunch of about 20 Auckland, New Zealand, businessmen, most of whom had had mild heart attacks. They ranged in age from 40 up to 70 plus. Most of them could not run more than 100 metres at first, but within 8 months, eight of them ran a full marathon. A 74 year old who had had several heart attacks managed less than 50 metres on his first jog. Six months later, having shed 27kg in weight, he ran 20 miles without stopping."

[Rudolf]

Mars thanks for additional info.

I have a buig warning about milk however.

The NZ milk is different to AUS milk, for few reasons, but 1 of them which sounds very strange is :

about 200 years ago (if I remeber the articles correctly), thewe was some srious genetical mutations with cows, and since than there are 2 different types of cows.

1 orriginal type, which produces milk cvery healthy, has no reaction to humans and this is the ciows in NZ for example, the people in AUAS who are highly allergic to milk in AUS can freely drink milk and eat dairy produced in NZ while there on hollidays or imported speciakl NZ icecream and they are just fine.

The type of cows with wrong mutation is unfortunaly all the cows in AUS, and even people who do nothave severe milk reaction still cant digest milk dairy properly here.

So what I am saying is that while Lydiard advice on milk was exellent it only applies to NZ milk ( and some other countries, but You need to do Your own research), and it applies to milk as it used to be decades ago from free living cows, no hormons, no antibiotics no artificial food etc, and also from milk fresh from cows not processed by dairy industry into some undegisteble crap.

So going to supermarket IN AUS and getting 2 litres of milk ghere is not what Lydiard had in mind and will result in dissaster

[Bellthorpe]

Rudolf, on Feb 4 2008, 06:43 AM, said:

So going to supermarket IN AUS and getting 2 litres of milk ghere is not what Lydiard had in mind and will result in dissaster

Fortunately this is where I get my milk: http://www.malenydai...com/thecows.htm

I drink about a pint a day, it's full fat milk that has not been homogenised. That means that you can still stick a grubby finger in the top and lick the cream off!

[Rudolf]

sound great Craig, seems they have nonmutated type of cows,

so nobody has exuse if living localy in QLD, however it seems they do not sell in Melbourne, and the long delivery will not allowed for fresh unprocessed anyway

[nando]

For those in Sydney I just picked up the book "Running with Lydiard" from Basement Books.  $3.95 bargain, and they still had a couple of copies left.

[Brick]

nando, on Feb 5 2008, 03:36 PM, said:

For those in Sydney I just picked up the book "Running with Lydiard" from Basement Books.  $3.95 bargain, and they still had a couple of copies left.

Sorry to do this, but I will if anybody is going to get one of these for $3.95 and lives close to Pennant Hills could you pick one up for me and we can organise how to get it from you after just send me a PM.
I never go into the city so can not get one.

Brick

[BEN-HUR]

Mars, on Feb 3 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

I have one other Gold Nugget on the nutrition thing. When I was having dinner with Barry Magee back in 2005, he told me a secret. Arthur used to tell Barry's good friend Murray Halberg to drink 2 litres of milk per day. Murray won gold medal in 5000m Rome Olympics 1960.

Remember these guys were doing miles like there was no tomorrow.

The milk has calcium and magnesium in the right balance. You need the magnesium to absorb the calcium. Milk has it in the right balance. It goes along way to reducing muscle soreness from the running and tranquilises the muscles and gives you a great sleep.

Arthur mentioned it off the cuff one day to Barry late in his life and Barry confirmed it with Murray. Murray used to chug the stuff down like there was no tomorrow and he had excellent powers of recovery from hard training.

So it's milk and honey all the way.

Thanks for the info. Mars. I am however surprised about the apparent wonders of milk (cows). I am aware of humans' problems in the efficient metabolizing of the food. Maybe Rudolf's point below could be the reason - however I have never heard of this i.e. a difference between N.Z & Australian cows milk. Being a vegan about 99% of the time I do not drink milk, thus my curiosity.

Rudolf, on Feb 4 2008, 07:43 AM, said:

I have a buig warning about milk however.

The NZ milk is different to AUS milk, for few reasons, but 1 of them which sounds very strange is :

about 200 years ago (if I remeber the articles correctly), thewe was some srious genetical mutations with cows, and since than there are 2 different types of cows.

So what I am saying is that while Lydiard advice on milk was exellent it only applies to NZ milk ( and some other countries, but You need to do Your own research), and it applies to milk as it used to be decades ago from free living cows, no hormons, no antibiotics no artificial food etc, and also from milk fresh from cows not processed by dairy industry into some undegisteble crap.

So going to supermarket IN AUS and getting 2 litres of milk ghere is not what Lydiard had in mind and will result in dissaster

Not wanting to diverge too much off topic ... but how does goats milk rate? I hear it is metabolized more efficiently than cows milk by us humans.

Regards,
BEN-HUR.

[Mister G]

nando, on Feb 5 2008, 03:36 PM, said:

For those in Sydney I just picked up the book "Running with Lydiard" from Basement Books.  $3.95 bargain, and they still had a couple of copies left.

Thanks mate- snapped up a copy this morning. Three copies still left when I departed the store- up the back wall in the sports section. (I spent a bit of time browsing the bargain bins initially, because surely that's where a $3.95 book logically belongs...)

[Rudolf]

BEN-HUR, teh goats milk has much better name and is often used for kids with alergies etc...

However to get real benefit it needs to be raw and fresh, so whatever is sold in cartoons after radiating it, heating it and possibly lots of other manipulations processes involving chemicals etc it is no milk anymore so it is not recognized by the body as food.

There is quite a number of people having goat on the suburban backyards or going to nearest goat farm to pick fresh milk, youghurts etc personaly

[Mars]

Mister G, on Feb 5 2008, 05:12 PM, said:

Thanks mate- snapped up a copy this morning. Three copies still left when I departed the store- up the back wall in the sports section. (I spent a bit of time browsing the bargain bins initially, because surely that's where a $3.95 book logically belongs...)

No it is in the section with the sign marked "Big Hairy Balls"...

[kathmandu]

Rudolf, on Feb 6 2008, 09:07 AM, said:

BEN-HUR, teh goats milk has much better name and is often used for kids with alergies etc...

This topic has made me curious. I actually grew up on goats milk, often almost fresh out of the goat onto my weetbix! My parents also made goats icecream, cheese and yoghurt. I dont have any digestion issues with cows milk, it was just that we kept goat, but i never thought of the benefits of goats milk.

So just did some googling and it seems goats milk is lower in lactose (hence the use for kids with allergies), is closer in composition to human milk, and apparently has a higher bioavailability of Fe, Ca, Mg and K. But one site suggested the benefit decreases after 24 hrs of milking. Might be time to get another goat!

Actually i was also interested in Lydiards recommendation of honey (from Mars). Am about to raid my hives for the first time, so it was music to my ears to read those benfits. Shame theres so few CRs in Perth, I'll have plenty to share!

And while Im here.....also have really loved reading the main (running) component of this thread. Its definitely in my list of favourite threads. Cheers to all those who've contributed, its great reading for us less experienced runners who love to hear the thoughts of the experienced. Thanks again.

[celtic runr]

I have been following this discussion for some time. Usually I say nothing as I nearly always agree with what Colin says.

I think some of this debate on distance is affected by the fact that everyone is different (obviously).  Clearly starting off later in life will effect the outcomes while genetics gives a natural limit to what we can achieve in a highly trained state.  So Fordyce could do wonders with low mileage while others needed the 160 km week. I think when you are young you can tolerate a lot more speed work as the body can recuperate.  For me I started in my mid-30s after a sedentary life and ran with a stressful job and 4 kids in the house.  So I fell into the mileage group and found the more I totaled up the faster I could run for 10k up. When I tried speed I would get injuries.  I found that it was tough to get above 140 km without going to 2 runs a day, which meant 6am and 6pm starts. So like Eagle says this seems to be some sort of limit.  I eventually peaked above 160 km in my mid 40's. I was easily able to run 10k under 35 mins and marathons in the low-mid 2:40's with sub 2:40 depending upon course and other factors. When I cut the distances back because of a move interstate I was never been able to go back to either mileage or race times.
For over 25 years I have been taking lots of those vitamins listed earlier, so maybe they do help the mileage. But I have a milk allergy, so not much of that. Maybe this is useful.

[emjay]

BEN-HUR, on Feb 5 2008, 07:37 PM, said:

Not wanting to diverge too much off topic ... but how does goats milk rate? I hear it is metabolized more efficiently than cows milk by us humans.

Regards,
BEN-HUR.

both goats and sheeps milk products are preferable to cows milk as they contain much lower levels of lactose.  i like sheeps milk yogurt as it has lovely mild flavour, much less overpowering than the goats.

[Mars]

celtic runr, on Feb 9 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

I have been following this discussion for some time. Usually I say nothing as I nearly always agree with what Colin says.

I think some of this debate on distance is affected by the fact that everyone is different (obviously).  Clearly starting off later in life will effect the outcomes while genetics gives a natural limit to what we can achieve in a highly trained state.  So Fordyce could do wonders with low mileage while others needed the 160 km week. I think when you are young you can tolerate a lot more speed work as the body can recuperate.  For me I started in my mid-30s after a sedentary life and ran with a stressful job and 4 kids in the house.  So I fell into the mileage group and found the more I totaled up the faster I could run for 10k up. When I tried speed I would get injuries.  I found that it was tough to get above 140 km without going to 2 runs a day, which meant 6am and 6pm starts. So like Eagle says this seems to be some sort of limit.  I eventually peaked above 160 km in my mid 40's. I was easily able to run 10k under 35 mins and marathons in the low-mid 2:40's with sub 2:40 depending upon course and other factors. When I cut the distances back because of a move interstate I was never been able to go back to either mileage or race times.
For over 25 years I have been taking lots of those vitamins listed earlier, so maybe they do help the mileage. But I have a milk allergy, so not much of that. Maybe this is useful.

So more mileage gave you better race results and speed work gave you injuries.

With the Lydiard method you get very consistent improvement and race performance.

It does involve speed work in this method. Just not until you have been conditioned properly. You do the faster stuff after the conditioning phase and hill phase are complete. Just common sense really.

Do speed work with minimal base mileage in your legs, or year round speed work, and one is asking for trouble. I have been there and it doesn't work consistently. Every runner I talk to who does regular speed work with little thought of a build up, is always injured. Nothing wrong with their body. But plenty wrong with their long term approach to training.

I guess if you pay a coach $10 to supervise a session he's not exactly going to say - "you're doing base work for the next 10 weeks - just go run for 90 mins and then you're done. Send me an email and let me know how it went".

It would seem like he was ripping you off if he said that. Even though it might be the best thing for you.

But if he gets you to all show up to the park twice a week and do intervals twice a week all year round, he can control the session, the group, and the cash flow.

Edited by Mars, 16 February 2008 - 11:51 PM.

[Still Building]

Mars, on Feb 13 2008, 04:20 AM, said:

I guess if you pay a coach $10 to supervise a session he's not exactly going to say - "you're doing base work for the next 10 weeks - just go run for 90 mins and then you're done. Send me an email and let me know how it went".

It would seem like he was ripping you off if he said that. Even though it might be the best thing for you.

But if he gets you to all show up to the park twice a week and do intervals twice a week all year round, he can control the session, the group, and the cash flow.

How True!

[Colin]

Mars, on Feb 13 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

So more mileage gave you better race results and speed work gave you injuries. Sounds like you disagree totally with Colin on this one.

I digress.

With the Lydiard method you get very consistent improvement and race performance.

Thanks for the dig Mars, I can dish it out too.... because the evidence on this board is that it hasn't worked for all, especially you... still waiting for you to convert that 2:48 training run marathon to the real thing.

But , I digress too

Back to drinking milk.   

On that note, this thread has a lot of 'cause/effect' assumptions. If a person drinks a lot of milk (or Reindeer milk in Viren's case  ) and breaks a world record, it does not necessarily follow that milk had anything to do with it. A simple understanding of stats and logic will tell you that.
On a physiological level, the claims made about effects of milk magnesium, protein etc are unfounded. This is outside the scope of this argument, since it has nothing to do with 100mile wks, except that the same person proposed it.

On 100miles, I have never argued that more running will not make you more aerobically fit. You don't have to be a Lydiard or a genius to propose that. People have naturally been doing as much as they could to improve fitness for years, though they do it a bit differently today.
What I have argued is that there cannot be a 'blanket' figure such as 100 miles for all, because there is a point of diminishing, then negative, returns which is a different point for different individuals. If we were all adapting the same and were the same biomechanically etc then we would all be running WR (or capable of).
This diminishing point is argued by respected sports scientists to be around 120km, and certainly many top athletes (one of whom still hold a WR) went no further than this.
If you are genetically endowed to run 160km (or more, why stop there?) without dimishing returns, and still do intensive work, as is the case with groups of athletes mentioned, then certainly do so.

But it is irresponsible to say that the same regime should be done by all, or that there is a magic mileage (because it worked for the individual proponent and others) that will work for all.

As I also pointed out, this is very much a self limiting exercise. Many people will get injured/fatigued etc and will naturally cut back... as is the case with some on this board already.
Most runners in my 30yrs of marathoning know about this regime, have given it a go carefully, but few have been able to keep going, and that is why, if you look at the training logs of 12,000 runners doing Comrades for example, very few will be doing that mileage... pure and simple because they want to get to the start line in the first case.
For argument's sake, a safe Silver medal prospect (achieved by small %) is deemed to have to do minimum 2,000 km in the 22 wks prior to race (post Jan 1). That is a recommendation of 90km/wk

Lets also be fair in the argument. If we post the anecdotal achivements of a small % of elite athletes, and some other weekend warriors... lets also not conveniently forget all of the others who have tried it , and for some reason couldn't continue, or it didn't work, IMHO, they are the majority, and lets not insult them , as some have, by saying they do not have the mental toughness.

Instead of trying to do what worked for some elite athletes at all costs, we should adapt our training to the best possible regime and outcome for our bodies. We should think outside the square. My personal belief is that, if I didn't adapt my training, and tried to do what everybody else tried, then I would have run the times that the majrity has... just my personal view, based on my limitations.

Mars, on Feb 13 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

But if he gets you to all show up to the park twice a week and do intervals twice a week all year round, he can control the session, the group, and the cash flow.

On that I agree with you whole heartedly.

Edited by Colin, 14 February 2008 - 09:38 AM.

[Peterhorse]

Mars, on Feb 13 2008, 05:20 AM, said:

I guess if you pay a coach $10 to supervise a session he's not exactly going to say - "you're doing base work for the next 10 weeks - just go run for 90 mins and then you're done. Send me an email and let me know how it went".

It would seem like he was ripping you off if he said that. Even though it might be the best thing for you.

But if he gets you to all show up to the park twice a week and do intervals twice a week all year round, he can control the session, the group, and the cash flow.

thus why i go once a week in build up, and twice a week for 3-4 weeks out from a goal event...sicne there are 3-4 major goal events for the year and a few more that i like to be a bit sharper for, it truns tou that there are 6-8 little blocks of time when twice a week is the go. the bit i'm not in agreement with is "he can control the session".   he (or she) sets the foramt, but each runner can go at teh pace they choose. i find a lot of runers around the same pace varying thier effort any given week, according to other sessions done outside the designated speed session. why do they/we/me turn up, pay the dough, then do a less than full speed effort? gregarious i guess.

[Rudolf]

weekly kms :

friend of mine very accomplished ultrarunner in 24H and longer races (podium finishes at 48H european championships, 2nd at Colac 2005, 1st at 7days in Greece 2006 etc), has very basic running philosophy :

in the build up months he is doing 600-700 kms per months, before important races he is backing off.

this is 140-160 kms per week in high volume weeks for him.

He says he is not worried about teh training pace, does not force him by watch, or TT and does not do any track speed etc.

Lots of the kms is done by running 8 km to work morning and 8km home evening,

sometimes longer route going home, and long runs weekend, typicaly 25km sat+sun early morning, not to disrupt the family time.

Thats all to it.

[Mars]

Hi Colin,

4 successful producing of peaks from 4 attempts as discussed earlier on this thread. No need to go over it again but I have the medals and pbs on the City to Surf certificates to prove it. I hear your challenge about one day choosing to peak for a marathon rather than track races or city to surf goals. I hear you. I think about it every day. The day I will pick a marathon and peak for it to the minute of the starter's horn. I think about it when I am going to sleep. I think about it when I am awake. And I think about it in the times in between.

Love Mars.

PS and only 248 posts to go until my first 1,000 posts using the same CR identity. It has been torture sticking to the one CR handle for so long. After about 15 different handles and some 1500 posts using other Monikers.

It could take me years to get to the 1,000. I don't post very much these days. Too busy trying to bring some money home to my wife and baby girl. Happy Valentines Day to anyone who appreciates the sentiment.

Edited by Mars, 14 February 2008 - 09:37 PM.

[Colin]

Mars, on Feb 14 2008, 10:33 PM, said:

Hi Colin,

4 successful producing of peaks from 4 attempts as discussed earlier on this thread. No need to go over it again but I have the medals and pbs on the City to Surf certificates to prove it. I hear your challenge about one day choosing to peak for a marathon rather than track races or city to surf goals. I hear you.

Hey Mars,

You hear me, but I never said it , must be a sixth sense.

What I did say, in respect of the training producing peaks, is that the said 'peaks' are no where near your previously touted ability to run a 2:48 marathon. I did not say you haven't, or should, peak for one.
I am not interested in C2S PB's out of line with your own stated ability, or medals of hard to quantify performance measure.

Please be level with the audience you are addressing and hanging by your every word.

Go well mate

Oh , re valentines:

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Edited by Colin, 14 February 2008 - 09:53 PM.

[Easy Tiger]

If Lydiard training helped you get the bronze in the NSW 800m masters then we need to balance that out by mentioning i got the silver in the same race off pure sprint - 100m, training. Maybe everyone needs to train as a 100m runner to get optimum results. Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i recall there was only 4 in the race so i'm not sure a medal justifies any type of training.

[celtic runr]

Mars and Colin,

I think you are both right, it just depends.  I was saying that, when younger, speed work is easier to do so mileage AND speed work can be OK but as you get older both together can be a problem. I reckon most people here are older rather than younger. So Mars says build a base so this means 160 km is now possible and do speed later.  Colin says do both but watch for the upper mileage limit fall-off and forget about the rigid 160 km goal.   So Mars ends up with a small number of big peaks while Colin's approach can allow for regular races. In poor weather locations the first way maybe more successful. But is NZ (Lydiard) weather that bad?

I like the bit about the coaching $s as it does seem to ring true.

[Mars]

Congratulations on your silver in the NSW 800m that day Easy Tiger. You are a very gifted athlete congratulations - far too good for me.

However I do reiterate that my performances on my peak goal races were great performances for me and where I was at. I will always look back on those races as days of successful personal achievement, which I would not have done without the preparation of the Lydiard method.

To those pursuing the Lydiard way, my best wishes to you in your preparations. I am sure you will not be disappointed with your big race days if you follow these methods. I certainly wasn't.

Love Mars.

Edited by Mars, 16 February 2008 - 12:23 PM.

[Rudolf]

celtic runr, on Feb 15 2008, 05:18 PM, said:

Mars and Colin,

I think you are both right, it just depends.  I was saying that, when younger, speed work is easier to do so mileage AND speed work can be OK but as you get older both together can be a problem. I reckon most people here are older rather than younger. So Mars says build a base so this means 160 km is now possible and do speed later.  Colin says do both but watch for the upper mileage limit fall-off and forget about the rigid 160 km goal.   So Mars ends up with a small number of big peaks while Colin's approach can allow for regular races. In poor weather locations the first way maybe more successful. But is NZ (Lydiard) weather that bad?

I like the bit about the coaching $s as it does seem to ring true.

perhaps this will show it in different light :


Lydiards job and goal was to get his runners to win olympic medals, so he could not care less about all year around racing, they only had to perform to get the NZ selection, which could have been done differently than in our current system.

Take oposite attitude, like Nic's - his jpb and goal is to get Buster to race around the year, wipout out of season races for some $$$, set the records there, but when it comes to deliver big peak at the 1 important race, than ...?

[lactatehead]

I find it strange that anyone disputes the merits of high mileage to get the best out of yourself. Many coaches will argue about periodisation but they all seem to agree on the mileage. They normally accept that nowdays most people will not go through the long and slow process because they want to see instant returns on the work they`ve put in.
When my dad`s generation were running through the 70s and 80s it was not even questioned how they needed to train.
I think something changed when the americans came along and invented jogging.

[Chelli]

I follow  the Jack Daniels approach to running as he has been know to be the worlds best running coach for distance running. He has proven programs that work for the 800m runner through to the marathon.  

You can't underestimate both speed and endurance to give yourself the best chance to perform at you genetic limits and there has to be brief periods where it can be better to work on and improve on shorter distances for brief periods of time.

Everyone has a limit to the amount of miles that provides their greatest training stimulas without overtraining. this includes long runs, medium runs, easy short recovery runs,  threshold runs, interval runs runs and repetition running to get the most out of you running economy and speed providing you have a great base to work from. If everyone just went out and ran 160kms week without any training stucture or a goal to work towards they would quickly burn out and lose motivation there running would become poorer and they would most likely get sick and injured.

[Bellthorpe]

Jack Daniels has been an excellent coach.

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that he is "the world's best running coach for distance running". He's one of many good coaches.

And of course one coach's methods will not be optimum for all runners.

[Steve 'The Footman']

At my best I ran when I was doing between 120km and 180km/week.  I was never into doing the same training all year round and tried to have a four week macrocycle of fluctuating mileage and intensity.  One week I ran 225km just to see how much I could do.  Looking back on my training and performances I would say that I needed the 120km/week consistently for a few months before jumping up a level in performance.  I do not think I ran better by running 160+km/week.  The most important session for me was the long rep speed session and I also believed in frequent racing.  My focus was on running fast over 5km and 10km so if my focus was on marathons then this would have been different.  I ran marathons in the off season for track races.  

The most important thing to remember about training is that different people should train differently depending on their goals and strengths.  The best coach in the world is one who understands this and can coach different athletes in the same event differently and get them both to perform up to their maximum potential.  For this reason in my opinion the best coach ever was Bill Bowerman.

[Mars]

Yes I see what you mean Steve. Great post.

Edited by Mars, 25 February 2008 - 08:18 PM.

[Rudolf]

to help the statistics, i used to be interval junkie and I used to be allways injured and on top of that creating chronic fatique.
However I was persistent which lead to chronic achilles, ankles, heel injuries on both legs and got me completely off the running for more than a decade with only brief attempts at comming back, each attemp was looking quite OK so was building up slowly and than in exitement I can run again I kicked few fast intervals and was out of it again.

[Colin]

lactatehead, on Feb 16 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

I find it strange that anyone disputes the merits of high mileage to get the best out of yourself. Many coaches will argue about periodisation but they all seem to agree on the mileage. They normally accept that nowdays most people will not go through the long and slow process because they want to see instant returns on the work they`ve put in.

Perhaps you are not referring to me, but if you read my posts carefully you will note that I stressed that more mileage will make you better (rocket science??) until diminishing returns. There is no open ended mileage quota, nor a one figure fits all.
Out of observation  and experience though, and I used a upper performance cohort from Comrades (an Ultra), self limitation has most of these runners averaging 90-100km/wk. Self limitation (breakdown at a certain volume) is what dictates how much the majority of runners can do biomechanically. There is no doubt however that for some who are able to do it and get away with it, the results are good.
You can see that I do not argue against Lydiard working for those who can achieve it, but the majority of runners can't.


Mars mate, this has never been about you vs me at all. I just put into perspective that your own listed examples of success on a regime, is not better than previously bragged about training runs, and whatever the conditions, they are nowhere near that run whichever way you put it.
I am putting your 'examples of success' (you used it) in a relative context. If that undermines your credibility, then that's your interpretation ...its up to the readers to decide.

Mars, I have run a sub 2:30 marathon (off 120-130km week at max), and I have run for 31 yrs without ever DNF'ing any marathon. The Canberra run in question where I had come into with a a very tight calf, I finished only because 1) I have never DNF'ed and 2) I preserved my PW of March 1977 (my first marathon at 19 off no training)... still of course a reasonably good time.
Edit: Besides the fact that it was well known how little training I did in that 'experiment' to run a sub 3 one month before Canberra(achieved), there were other issues which impacted on my leg condition... I do not make excuses for that so I won't elaborate.
But where in this thread have I used that run as an example of things working out well??? Or an example of my training at my peak???

For you to infer a history of achilles problems or injuries just shows the level to which you will stoop to win your argument. I talk about your real performances which you listed and you make up stories to suit you, whilst slandering/libelling others.

I have never ever told you of "having all sorts of ITB issues", not one at all and you should correct that blatant lie. I have not had an ITB niggle in fact since at least 1985. I would not even remember what an ITB niggle feels like.
What I do have is a back/referred pain issue due to one leg being about 1cm shorter.
This has been there since before my running, it is there even if I do not run at all and is the same at 100km/wk. In fact, I mostly get it when I stand still long, or sit... perhaps I shouldn't do those things.

In fact, my running over the last ten years or so, especially the last few, have been more hampered by lack of motivation (that happens when you no longer have PB's to break) than injuries. I have had one injury that stopped me from running in the last 10 years.

The fact that you stoop to the level of making up a history of me that suits your argument shows that you absolutely  lack class as a person, and I'm sure all CR's can make their mind up on that.

If you produce one more bit of lie about me to back up your argument this will definitely go further than CR. And I gladly challenge you to do likewise should I libel you.

You gave your PB's and your marathon training effort as an example of your success, I did not make it up. You say you haven't got injured-- great. You know what, I also would not get injured when I don't do anything, but then I would at least have an excuse for results which are inconsistent with good training.
In other words, you haven't got injured, but you also haven't got results that show your training works for you.... again, based on your own stated relative (not absolute) performances.

The fact is that you want to desperately come across as a guru of some sort , name dropping etc, and you try to back it up with hot air. If you had just stuck to the principles of the training you are talking about, which stand unquestionably on its on record,  it would have been enough.
Principles also require understanding of cause-effect. Its no use pointing to Lydiard farting 10 times a day (hypothetical, ok?) and then saying that it had an impact on the performance.

cheers

edit ps: I do not make an apology for fighting my name on the thread, when I was attacked on this thread... If I am attacked offline, I will leave it offline.

Edited by Colin, 16 February 2008 - 09:01 PM.

[wallabybob]

Colin and Mars, time to take a chill pill boys. How about you kiss and make up.

All this arguing is getting far too personal and detracting from what the thread was about. Why don't you take it offline or to the courts or wherever? It is detracting for us that want to read about different training techniques.

For the record, when I was in my hey day, I used to knock out 200km weeks. These days I am struggling to run 60. But hey, as long as you're running, it's all good.

[Mars]

Sure yes I think I will take that chill pill. Cheers.

Edited by Mars, 17 February 2008 - 03:16 PM.