199 replies to this topic

[Steve 'The Footman']

In the Lydiard thread Chelli has suggested that Jack Daniels is the worlds best Distance Running Coach.  I thought he was the best Scotch.

Hard thing to prove but I thought it would be good to have a poll to find out what coolrunners thought.

Perhaps difficult to decide which variables make someone a great coach.  Coaching lots of top athletes or the worlds best is not enough in itself.  Bringing up lots of new elite athletes could be important.  

I think the most important quality is coaching different athletes of different abilities and strengths and having them all reach their potential by training differently.  It is also harder to coach a good athlete to become great than a great athlete to be great.

[thomo]

How about giving a link to each coach?

Some I know, some I don't.

Others might know more or less of the names.

What about the self coached who reached olympic gold?

I note Ma Junren had 6 of his athletes dropped from China's team for the Sydney olympic games after failing blood tests.

[MizukiNoguchi]

Jimmy Beauttah - Moses Kiptanui, Daniel Komen, Kip Keino, Asbel Kiprop.
Renato Canova - Stephen Cherono (Shaheen), Rodgers Rop, Nicholas Kemboi, Ahmad Hassan Abdullah, James Kwalia.
Colm O'Connell - Peter Rono, Wilson Kipketer, Wilson Boit Kipketer, Ibrahim Hussein, Isaac Songok, Augustine Choge.

[Steve 'The Footman']

thomo, on Feb 16 2008, 06:28 PM, said:

I note Ma Junren had 6 of his athletes dropped from China's team for the Sydney olympic games after failing blood tests.

I included Victor Conte for the same reason (the guy behind the Balco drug laboratory.

You can google the rest or go on wikipedia.  A brief synopsis:

Arthur Lydiard - created a system of long term periodisation - he coached a bunch of athletes from a small pool to achieve world best status.
Jack Daniels - The Daniels method bestselling book - coached US marathoners
Ma Junren         - catapillar fungus dealer - coached a squad of record breaking athletes that lasted about three years
Franz Stampel - Roger Bannisters Coach - also coached many Australian Athletes
Pat Carroll         - local running guru - coaches social athletes in Brisbane and many online
Peter Coe         - Seb Coes coach and author of scientific coaching for runners
Percy Cerutty - Coached Herb Elliot - a charismatic coach more focused on motivation than science
Mike Kosgei - has coached many of the successful Kenyans in the last 20 years
Bill Bowerman - coached Steve Prefontaine, Kenny Moore and others - founded Nike - started the running boom
Greg McMillan - good prediction calculator
Nic Bideau         - Craig Mottram, Benita Johnson - has achieved most of Australias success in last 10 years
Wolde Meskel Kostre - Gebresalaise Coach
Said Aouita - controversal coach for athletics australia who did not last long
Dr Gabrielle Rosa- coached many African athletes to success - not a doctor for nothing!
Victor Conte      - Balco - who said steroids were only for sprinters

[azza]

I voted for Daniels - mainly because I feel his methods are a bit more accessible than Lydiard's for most people, yet he has quite a few runs on the boards as well with his athletes.

[Sawadee]

I pick Ma Junren! The way those Chinese athletes demolished those world records in the early 90s was astonishing!
The women 3k record dropped from 8.22 to 8.06 within a week! More than a 3% improvement! No other record has ever gone by so much! With or without drugs or caterpillar soup!!

[Bellthorpe]

Steve'The Footman', on Feb 16 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

In the Lydiard thread Chelli has suggested that Jack Daniels is the worlds best Distance Running Coach.  I thought he was the best Scotch.

Jack Daniels is a brand of whisky, but it's certainly not Scotch!

[Jimboy]

In terms of influence on coachs and athletes alike,Lydiard is supreme.Most of the others named learned from his principles.Daniels is a cook book physiologist!

[Phoenix]

What about jeff galloway - has coached more runners than any other through the Marathon.

Or Hal Higdon?

[lactatehead]

A handful of american coaches have monopolised the popular running book market and therefore have a falsley elevated status.
It is obvious that Lydiard`s contribution to distance training has had the biggest influence on the history of running.

[danieljohngreen]

Don't think you can put it down to just one person being the best coach ever, but for my liking it would not be any of those who have written a 'popular' running book in the last 20 years. Give me Lydiard, Cerrutty, or Stampel.

Lactatehead mentioned Lydiard because his contribution has had the biggest influence on running history. However if you are going to include Lydiard in that way, what about Zatopek? He was a self coached athlete (therefore that by default makes his a coach), whose training methods probably caused an even greater change in distance running compared to Lydiard.

Regards
Greeny

[rohan]

lactatehead, on Feb 18 2008, 02:50 AM, said:

A handful of american coaches have monopolised the popular running book market and therefore have a falsley elevated status.

in helping more people, wouldn't that truly elevate their status? rather than being really good at say coaching one athlete?...

[thomo]

thomo, on Feb 16 2008, 07:28 PM, said:

What about the self coached who reached olympic gold?

I said the above.

danieljohngreen, on Feb 18 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

However if you are going to include Lydiard in that way, what about Zatopek? He was a self coached athlete (therefore that by default makes his a coach), whose training methods probably caused an even greater change in distance running compared to Lydiard.

Regards
Greeny

Greeny says the same.

[Nate]

It's got to be Lydiard for mine. He's the one who pioneered the long distance training model of high weekly mileage and to my knowledge, there are a lot of athletes these days still using this method.

[Cato]

OLD MILER

Cato

[lactatehead]

Greeny,

I agree with you about Zatopek and I think he paved the way for Lydiard.

[lactatehead]

rohan, on Feb 17 2008, 08:17 PM, said:

in helping more people, wouldn't that truly elevate their status? rather than being really good at say coaching one athlete?...

I see the best coach as the one who has directly or indirectly turned the highest number of average runners into international class athletes.

The ones who have helped thousands of people improve have done a great job but does not necessarily make them the world`s greatest coach.

[deadcat]

now we're into semantics about "best" vs "influential" vs "successful" etc..

didn't someone give the century's best car to the VW Beetle?  It may have been revoluntionary and influential and pave the way for modern motoring blah blah blah but no-one would say it was the "best" car of the century, would they?

If we're talking about "influence" we just keep going back to who influenced who, who influenced who etc which I see is what peeps talk about with Lydiard isn't it?  And how are we going to measure success anyway?  
maybe the problem isn't finding the answer, it's determining the question..

[2feetoffground]

deadcat, on Feb 18 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

maybe the problem isn't finding the answer, it's determining the question..

just take away the "maybe"

[Still Building]

Lydiard.

Amazing success with local lads - Snell, Halberg, McGee, Davies - 6 Olympic Medals there.

With Dixon, Quax and Walker to follow in the next decade (training influenced by Lydiard) - 3 more Olympic Medals there.

New Zealand with a population of around 3 million in the 70s (I think) - fewer than Victoria??

How can this success be?

Then there is Olympic Medallist Loraine Moller (Lydiard devotee) - That is 10 Olympic Medals from 8 Kiwis

Jack Foster - silver 1974 Commonwealth Games  Marathon with a time of 2:11:19 at the age of 41! I suppose Lydiard influenced him too.

Then there is the Finland successes of the 70's. Mottram's training is basically Lydiard too so I understand.

Hamish Carter (NZ) - Olympic Gold Medal in the triathlon - Not a lot of lactic work done - Lydiard influence there.

Also, a guy called Nobby reckons he was with Lydiard in 1984 when the phone rang. It was Peter Coe asking for training advice for his athlete. Google it - it is on the net somewhere.

Zatopek - I don't think his training methods have been embraced and don't think his influenced was as great. My understanding is that Zatopek would cover 20 to 30 km a day - covering more distance than his competitors.

Edited by Still Building, 19 February 2008 - 01:47 AM.

[Sawadee]

Where is Derek Clayton, who coached Derek Clayton to a 2.08.34 world record marathon back in the late 60s??
Pat Clohessy wasn't a bad coach either! But nothing on Ken Green, Mike Lawson or Sean Williams!

[FakePlasticTrees]

I haven't voted as I really don't have enough information to make that decision. However I checked the results and was surprised to find that with 20% of the votes Pat Carroll is the second best running coach of all time behind Lydiard.

[Ron1]

.

Edited by littleaussie, 01 August 2008 - 05:04 PM.

[Rudolf]

I am glad Zatopek was already mentioned few times.


He definitely coached himself without having any help to bounce the ideas from or to prepare the infrastructure for sessions etc, everything he had to create in his head from whatever little it was available.

He is probably the only coach with 100 % efficiency - every runner he coached has made few WR and got few Gold medals
of course he was only one, but thats teh point - he did not have bunch of talented already developed exellent runners and made them work hard doing lots of errors in the proces, and from those who survived some would reach for the medals.  He did not have any failures and whatever he achieved was despite the suroundings and despite the situation around him and teh conditions he lived in, everybody was just trying to confuse him and undermine him, and always it was the next WR or another gold medal for the country which saved his ass.


At the end of his carrier he took few foreigners as students and explained them his system and let them train with him, and all of them achieved at least their respective countries records, take russian Kuc (Kutz) for example, or ther was an aussie (sorry forget the name).


To this day, I would say his system and methods are not understood and are missrepresented, so thats why he is not recognized as coach or sport scientist.

He was 2 person in 1 or bnetter say 3 person in 1.

First hwe needed to create and discioover the system new theory applications principles etc, in a position of a sport scientist so to speak,

Than as a second person he needed to underst it all to be able to flexibkle apply it to any particular runner and do the daily and weejkly decisions and adjsutements etc.

and of course as person number 3 he was also a runner who needed to execute it al with his legs too.


Talking about other coaches - they mostly executed and applied know methods otr methods of somebody else, did not create their own veryy distinctive system.


So to me Zatopek is numero uno, of course I was extremely lucky to read his detailed bok in original language with all the details and nothing was therefore lost or buggered in translation and I was very familiar with the situations he was describing so could read a lot in between the lines too.

[Chelli]

Jack Daniels I believe has a great training schedule for runners of all back grounds. He doesn't just obsess on running miles. You need a balance of speed and endurance as many runners reach a pateau when running too many kilometres and don't include specific speed work to increase their pace over shorter distances and this overtime can make them more efficient and faster over the longer stuff.

I believe runners that are beginning do not need to concern themselves with much speed work as they need to improve their endurance and can rapidly improve this with long steady runs and some short 20 minute threshold runs. As a runner improves over a period of time and they have lost plenty of kilos and increased their cardio efficiency to a great degree then speed work becomes an importance.


Once this base of endurance running is achieved within 6 months to 2 years depending on the age and how fit the individual is. Then it can more or less come down to their running speed and running economy that can further improve their performance. That is why speed work can be a greater importance as once an athlete is getting closer to their true running potential. Also when running beyond a person training limitation the quality of work and running speed can start to deteriorate and the chances of injury and illness increases and burn out and a loss of motivation is likely.

It is said that an athlete can be in peak performance for a limited time of generally 4-6 weeks depending on the base and the build up. Then the athlete falls into staleness. The only way to keep the athlete performing at  top level is to keep them sharp with speed work and do very little in between to keep them fresh. A really large base of running is also required otherwise the peak will not last as long. After this period of optimum performance. It is likely the athlete will deteriorate in up and coming performances as they have spent their reserves and generally need a mental break before building up again to a higher level.

Edited by Chelli, 20 February 2008 - 10:06 PM.

[Chelli]

I think if you had the speed of Haile over 10 km and the fatigue resistance of Derek Claytron over the marathon you could almost have a sub 2hr Marathon runner. I believe Haile is about 2 minutes faster than Derek Clayton over 10km.  If you can do your sums this is over 8 minutes over the marathon it just shows you how good Derek Clayton was!!!!

[wallabybob]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned what a great coach Paul Arthur is. He gets my vote.

[Jimboy]

C[quote name=, on Feb 20 2008, 12:04 PM, said:

Jack Daniels I believe has a great training schedule for runners of all back grounds. He doesn't just obsess on running miles. You need a balance of speed and endurance as many runners reach a pateau when running too many kilometres and don't include specific speed work to increase their pace over shorter distances and this overtime can make them more efficient and faster over the longer stuff. I believe runners that are beginning do not need to concern themselves with much speed work as they need to improve their endurance and can rapidly improve this with long steady runs and some short 20 minute threshold runs. As a runner improves over a period of time and they have lost plenty of kilos and increased their cardio efficiency to a great degree then speed work becomes an importance. Once this base of endurance running is achieved within 6 months to 2 years depending on the age and how fit the individual is. Then it can more or less come down to their running speed and running economy that can further improve their performance. That is why speed work can be a greater importance as once an athlete is getting closer to their true running potential. Also when running beyond a person training limitation the quality of work and running speed can start to deteriorate and the chances of injury and illness increases and burn out and a loss of motivation is likely. It  is said that an athlete can be in peak performance for a limited time of generally 4-6 weeks depending on the base and the build up. Then the athlete falls into staleness. The only way to keep the athlete performing at  top level is to keep them sharp with speed work and do very little in between to keep them fresh. A really large base of running is also required otherwise the peak will not last as long. After this period of optimum performance. It is likely the athlete will deteriorate in up and coming performances as they have spent their reserves and generally need a mental break before building up again to a higher level.

In essence,isn't the above what Lydiard preached long before Daniels came along?Jim Beisty

[lebusqp]

Arthur Newton. the grandfather of modern distance running methods.

[Colin]

lebusqp, on Feb 21 2008, 09:22 PM, said:

Arthur Newton. the grandfather of modern distance running methods.

Not many would know of him, but he was way before the rest.

On a similar vein you could include the guy who won 9 times at the most competitive and popular road ultra, with his different training and peaking methods, then inspired tens of thousands to follow suit in that sort of stategy.

[2feetoffground]

Where is Alberto?

[lebusqp]

Alberto who? Are you talking about Salazar. If so  I wouldn't rate him as a great coach. He is coaching some athletes who had already shown great talent and is having mixed results.
Clohessy clearly should be on the list ahead of someone like Pat Carroll. Clo established a training system that has been extremely successful. People such as Deek, Monners, Wardlaw, Carroll, Troop, Creighton, Andrews, Doyle, Paynter, Froude, Scammell, McCann, Letherby, Harrison, Nowill, Barrett even Lisa Martin, Darren Wilson, Benita, Buster and many others have either used this method or been coached by coaches who were significantly influenced by it. Of course Clo was influenced largely by Lydiard.
Tadeus Kempka is one great coach who never gets a mention in these type of discussions. He coached most of the top Polish runners through the 50s/60s then took on the Mexicans after Lydiard left them. Through the 80s and 90s the Mexicans were a major player in distance running and this was in no small part due to the influence of Kempka.

[Mars]

Barry Magee is my vote for best distance coach. www.upandrunning.co.nz

Edited by Mars, 23 February 2008 - 10:51 AM.

[2feetoffground]

lebusqp, on Feb 22 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

Alberto who? Are you talking about Salazar. If so  I wouldn't rate him as a great coach. He is coaching some athletes who had already shown great talent and is having mixed results.
Clohessy clearly should be on the list ahead of someone like Pat Carroll. Clo established a training system that has been extremely successful. People such as Deek, Monners, Wardlaw, Carroll, Troop, Creighton, Andrews, Doyle, Paynter, Froude, Scammell, McCann, Letherby, Harrison, Nowill, Barrett even Lisa Martin, Darren Wilson, Benita, Buster and many others have either used this method or been coached by coaches who were significantly influenced by it. Of course Clo was influenced largely by Lydiard.
Tadeus Kempka is one great coach who never gets a mention in these type of discussions. He coached most of the top Polish runners through the 50s/60s then took on the Mexicans after Lydiard left them. Through the 80s and 90s the Mexicans were a major player in distance running and this was in no small part due to the influence of Kempka.

Yes, Salazar  

"De Castella’s coach, Clohessy, was coached by Lydiard by correspondence on his way to becoming the 1962 NCAA three mile champion while attending the University of Texas."



from: http://runningtimes....ticles/?id=5232

[chookrunner]

Let's get the man's name right out of respect - FRANZ STAMPFL.

Seriously, how can you have Pat Carroll and Nic Bideau on the same list as Cerutty and Lydiard, no disrespect intended to Pat or Nic.

[Stalky]

Arthur Lydiard since around 1960 has greatly influenced running all over the world by experimenting and finding out the right mixture of training on his self, then putting his ideas into practise. As Bill Bowerman said there is no better coach in the world,but you cannot say who is the best, as all coaches experiment with other coaches ideas and try to come up with the right formula for their athletes.

[Steve 'The Footman']

It looks like Lydiard is the clear winner although Pat Carroll has hung in there for second place.  

Really there is no answer to the question as 'best' is a matter of opinion.

The question could be who is the most influencial coach, who is the most well known coach or the most popular.  Even the worlds most successful coach is hard to define as what constitutes success?

Best really could be by reputation when the reputation is gained through one exceptional athlete.  Some coaches are much better at selling themselves then others so perhaps the best coach is not even known.

I think what really makes a great coach is someone who cares for the athletes they coach and sticks with them through the hard times.  It is easy to coach a winning athlete but much more work if they are injured or need extra support through adversity.  It is during times of trouble that you learn who your friends are and also when you learn how good your coach really is.

[RichEnglehart]

Wow! I'm a "Lydiard" guy and he'd get my vote. But no one has either Pat Clohessey or Chris Wardlaw on their list?

[lebusqp]

Hey Rengle/HRE? you better go back and read my last post I think I gave Clo a pretty big mention. As for Rab Wardlaw, well he was my main influence but he was largely influenced by Clohessy. A bit like Davies and Magee in relation to Lydiard.

[RichEnglehart]

lebusqp, on Mar 10 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

Hey Rengle/HRE? you better go back and read my last post I think I gave Clo a pretty big mention. As for Rab Wardlaw, well he was my main influence but he was largely influenced by Clohessy. A bit like Davies and Magee in relation to Lydiard.

That's me. Still searching for my identity. I did see that you mentioned Clo. I'm surprised he's not in the list, i.e. no one could vote for him. That was my point.

Edited by RichEnglehart, 12 March 2008 - 11:49 AM.

[Stalky]

RichEnglehart, on Mar 11 2008, 07:47 PM, said:

That's me. Still searching for my identity. I did see that you mentioned Clo. I'm surprised he's not in the list, i.e. no one could vote for him. That was my point.

I think you will find that Lydiard influenced Clo as well.

Edited by Stalky, 12 March 2008 - 06:55 PM.

[lebusqp]

Stalky, on Mar 12 2008, 01:53 AM, said:

I think you will find that Lydiard influenced Clo as well.

Very true. Clo did change things around however and his training model was distinct from that of Lydiard. Subsequent Aussie coaches such as Wardlaw, Carroll etc have tended to use much the same model as Clo.
Good to have you on board Rich E, I find most of your posts on other forums to be well thought out.
Now if we can get Nobby over here and then that legend Richard

[batavia]

Get ready to add Sonia O'Sullivan !!

[Digger]

If FRANZ STAMPFL can't get a vote, people have short memory's.

He was the only reason why John Landy wasn't the 1st person to break the 4min mile barrier(Now that statement should cause some discussion)

[lebusqp]

Stampfl was a genius, no doubt about that. Australia's 2 fastest 800m runners were trained by him. No Aussie has run faster than Doubell did 40 years ago and the only runner close was Bourke 26years ago. Both from Stampfl's stable. Lincoln must rate as his greatest training achievemet however. Lincoln could only run about 53 for 400m but ran 3.55 for a mile!
Sometime back Doubell commented that recent 800m runners lack the aerobic fitness he had. This probably contradicts many people's thoughts on Stampfl's methods. He did actually have his runners running quite a lot of distance and he did periodise his training to bring his runners to a peak. He was one of the first coaches to encourage distance runners to do relatively high training volume. Most coaches thought the runners would get too tired from training long and hard but he reasoned it was the only way to prepare properly.

[Jonesy]

Cerruty reigns supreme.  A rogue, a genius an inspiration.

[Still Building]

There is a bit about Lydiard's, Cerutty's and Stampfl's training in the link below - concerning 800 m base training.

It supports what has been written above.

http://z12.invisionf...p?showtopic=432

Edited by Still Building, 13 March 2008 - 09:01 PM.

[Sawadee]

Whoever coaches Haile Gebrselassie or Bekele in Ethiopia deserves The Title "World's Best Coach"!!!!
Basically walk over Lydiard!!!

[RichEnglehart]

Sawadee, on Mar 14 2008, 03:35 AM, said:

Whoever coaches Haile Gebrselassie or Bekele in Ethiopia deserves The Title "World's Best Coach"!!!!
Basically walk over Lydiard!!!

The trouble with trying to rate coaches today and compare them with coaches from past generations is that it's hard to tell where influence has filtered to. I've seen descriptions of what Gebreselassie does and it looks very Lydiard-ish. I have no idea if that means there is any Lydiard influence at all. But it's entirely possible that whoever coached Gebreselassie was influenced by someone who was influenced by someone who was a "Lydiard" guy. It's possible that's not true, but it would be VERY difficult for someone studying how to coach distance runners not to have come across Arthur's ideas.
Stalky's example, that Clohessey was influenced by Lydiard is bang on the mark. He travelled Europe with Lydiard and his original runners in the 60s. When he began coaching he understood that the running world had changed and that most athletes don't want to train to a peak for two occasions per year. They want to be able to race well most of the time, so Clo changed the application of Arthur's ideas. Nic Bideau has done the same thing. So has virtually every Japanaese coach. They all idolize Nakamura and Nakamura idolized Lydiard. It was just such an influential method that it's difficult to say sometimes where you're finding it. No one in the US ever thought of Frank Shorter as a "Lydiard" guy, but Frank recently said he was strongly influenced by Lydiard's ideas of doing high mileage and of running by feel.
Lebusq, thanks. I probably could get Nobby to come here. You're going to have to find Richard99 on your own. I've largely given up the US Coolrunning forums. I really haven't been able to get on since they made their switch.

[RichEnglehart]

At the risk of getting cslled something nasty, I'm going to add that I think it's very difficult to evaluate someone who only coaches somewhat mature Africans.
A name that could be on this "best coaches" list but probably isn't too well known in Oz is Bill Squires. Bill has probably coached more sub 2:10 marathoners than any English speaking coach. At one time or another he coached Bill Rodgers, Dick Beardsley, and Alberto Salazar, though Salazar went on to run for Bill Dellinger. I was talking with Bill a few years ago and we got onto the subject of great coaches. Bill said that he didn't think it was a huge accomplishment to take an African who could run 10k in 28:30 on almost no training and get him to a 2:07 marathon. Real coaching, he thought, was taking a 2:23 marathoner and getting him to 2:13. Lydiard always said that anyone could coach a Kenyan, referring to the fact that the way Kenyans live generally develops a very high level of aerobic fitness and really all a coach needs to do to get the best from them is to add some anaerobic work.
That's why I've never been able to think of Renato Canova as a great coach. I'm waiting to see him take some Italian kid who ran the 1500 in 4:05 at seventeen and get him to 13:15-27:40. If I were to add the name of an African's coach to the list I'd go with Colm O'Connell who does coach a lot of undeveloped Africans to very high levels.

Edited by RichEnglehart, 15 March 2008 - 01:45 AM.