199 replies to this topic

[pjw]

Rudolf, on Mar 30 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

re - info on Zatopek - Kratochvilova trainings.

Because of his continous runs I cant quite understand why Zatopek is mentioned in 1 bag with german interval system with Gershler etc

Thanks Rich but i have to admit i was just ignorant when i put that 1 bag together. In fact as i typed it i knew i should check but didn't. So i don't know what Gerschler actually did and i don't know what the Freiberg system is. My coach Efim said 'if you want to look into intervals look into Gerschler'. That was months ago. Where can i find something? Also, what is the relationship between Gerschler and Freiberg?

Rudolf apologies, i know how much you love Emil, it's starting to rub off on me. A Czech bookshop you say. Would you translate if i could come up with something? I'm happy to be corrected with Emil's continuous running. Are you referring to the 20km a day or the fartlek intervals? Regarding Jarmila, are you meaning her intervals were done with jog or faster recovery as poosoed to stopping or walking?

SB, can you locate any Kratochvilova stuff if you are around?

Edited by pjw, 31 March 2008 - 01:35 AM.

[MizukiNoguchi]

I'd say ignore HR zones and run by feel.

Edited by EdwinSoiForGold, 31 March 2008 - 03:54 AM.

[Rudolf]

yes I would be more than happy to translate, if I can get those books back into my hands.

re Emils continuos runs _ I already explained many times.

what the wolrd understood or interpreted as 400m repetitions (and kept suck on the magic number 100x400),

was actual continueous run, Emil never run repetitions.

It was allways faster lap followed by slower lap so therefore it was always writen as say 20x400/400m

faster laps were done at or near the racing speed, if tired from weekly buildup they were slower but run at race effort, which is physiologicaly teh same, although not quite biomechanicaly.

Emil only counted the laps in the race pace, so therefore he only told teh foreigh journalis of teh number of 400m he runs at race pace, so there where he confused the  world.

However each lap at race pace was followed by so called recovery lap perhaps about 15 secs slower, so it was not slow jog and no recovery pace, it just allowed the oxygen to catch up a bi and the muscles to recover a bit.


The closest to this sytem is training session called Monna fartlek mentioned few times already, the only difference is that totakl lenght of Monna fartlek was only 15 minutes distance wise 4800m and the fast slow parts of it were getting progressively shorter down to 30 secs, for some articles Monna also did less complicated 5km fartlek were it was not by time lenght of slower/faster parts, but simply by faster straights and slower bends but differnce was only about 2 secs between faster and slower 100m, so it was not down to jog, it was called float.

This is how Emil started - fast straights, float bends, till he was tired, so first week it was only to 3x100/100, but 5xweek,

Monna and his school does that fartlek only 1xweek and possibly not every week, that is the major difference.

Emil builded up to 10x100/100, when he bocome comfortable with it 5xweek, he switched to 200/200, and again builded up to 10x200/200.

This was eand of season, so Emil said to his friend - somewhere I read, that end of season - autumn buildup for next season it is advisable to run longer, so he said I am going tomorow to run those 10x200 in 1 go as 2km
See how he disregarded those slower floats 200m between faster ones, not recognizing that he was actualy runninh 4km each day to him it was only 2 km each day, to him floats were something to a cyclist descending the mountain or ride with a huge backwind so he did not count it.

His friend said - OK I will bring my stopwatch and time You . So next day after some warm up, Emil run 2km at even pace hard. His friend looked at the stopwatch and said - YOu know I am not sure but this may be a national 2000m record, I will look it up at my dormitory - I have an athletic statistic yearbook there. So they went look it up and yes it was better than than national record.
Emil said - please do not tel anybody, I wanna keep training quitely and wipe everybody out next season comes.
However his friend broke the promise called the club president right that night. Next day there were official present at the teraining session, which was very unusual, and they waited for Emil : we heard about Your fantastic record run, so we wanna make it official, so we announced extar out of season track meet for this comming saturday and told the press it is oficail attempt at national record, so You better get ready.

Emil was not happy with this at all, that was not his plan, he didi not wanna become famous before next season and before winter preparation months.

The offial added - and to make it more meaningfull - the record attempt race is at 3000m.

Shit said Zatopek, the 3000m is much better quality since 2000m is very rarely run as a nonstandard, and he said - I do not even run 3000m at my training (again counting only fastyer partys of it, not counting the floats)

But he did run the 3000m national record that saturday, and next season at the first track meet he run national record at 1500m = 4:01


So Zatopek did all his running as continuos runs later using 400/400m, but counting only the fast ones.

Just imagine Monna fartlek run for 2-3 hours instead of 15 minutes, of course the pace a bit slower.

[coconnor]

This is a very interesting thread.

I think it is important to remember the principle of individuality.
The best training for one person may not be the best training for the next.

I remember once hearing Herb Elliot saying that he thought training on the track all the time would be dull and soul destroying. Later I heard his greatest rival, Merv Lincoln say that he could think of nothing more boring than going out for a 10 mile run. Lincoln loved training on the track where he had specific goals for each interval and immediate feedback about how he was performing.
Different athletes different training.

I divide training up into 5 different approaches. All of which can be successful.

PERIODISED METHODS (e.g. Lydiard)
Periodisation is the division of the training year into distinct phases or periods.  A different type of training (or at least a clearly different emphasis in training) is carried out in each phase.  So in each phase the athlete usually concentrates on developing one specific physiological capacity.
For example several months of mostly long runs to build endurance, then 6 weeks of hill work for strength, then a period of speed work.
The aim of periodised training is to bring the athlete to peak form at a particular time of the year, usually aimed at some championship event.
  
COMPLEX METHODS (e.g Ron Clarke, Clohessy, De Castella, Moneghetti)
The athlete employing a complex training method trains, more or less, the same way year round.  With only minor variations, the athlete will do the same sort of training week after week.  Although each weeks training maybe similar to the next, there is usually a great amount of variation within each week.  This athlete is always fit and never too far away from top racing form and tends to race often.  It has been claimed that this approach to training can help avoid the injuries that can appear when runners change from one type of training to another.  
The aim is to gradually improve the athletes level of training and fitness over a period of years.

INTERVAL METHODS (e.g Stampfl, Bowerman, Zatopek)
Nearly all athletes use some form of interval training. Some coaches, however use interval training as the major form of conditioning throughout the entire year.  
Usually they start running intervals at a certain "date pace" e.g 70secs per 400m and over a period of months this pace in increased until they reach "goal pace" e.g. 60 secs per 400m
The aim is to gradually accustom the athlete to running at a particular desired "race-pace" or "goal-pace"

FARTLEK METHODS (e.g. Cerutty, Van Aaken)
Many athletes use fartlek training at some point in their programs, often as an introduction to more rigorous interval training.  Some coaches, however, have used fartlek principles as the cornerstone of their approach to training.
Fartlek is done away from the track, preferably in parks or forests and the runner can use the terrain - e.g. sprint up hills, slow down on corners, stride out on the flat.  The athlete "listens to his body" and runs according to how he feels and not according to some measured, predetermined, externally imposed schedule.
This has recently been referred to as "re-active" training. Instead of sticking to a set training schedule, training is constantly changing and planned around how the athlete is feeling and reacting to previous training sessions.
The aim is to train freely, according to the dictates and responses of your own body.

MULTI-PACE METHODS (e.g Coe)
Multi-pace training is somewhat of a hybrid between periodised, complex and interval methods.  Whereas interval methods usually train the runner to run at a particular "race-pace," multi-pace training has the athlete running at a number of different speeds.  Although there is a degree of periodisation, throughout most of the year the athlete will do at least some running at each of the designated speeds each week (or at least once every two weeks).
The aim is to try to ensure that none of the athletes physiological capacities are left untrained for any substantial period of time.

[Rudolf]

am sorry to be so boring all te time, but how can Zatopek fit into interval method group ? huh ?

into fartlek group perhaps maybe.

[pjw]

Actually really interesting Rudolf. Are you making a distinction between work and rest? If the ratio is closer to 1:1 it is approaching steady running so it would be called fartlek, With walk or stop recoveries the ratio is going out to 2:1 and more. So at what ratio does it move from fartlek to interval?

Can you tell me the titles of Zatopek and Kratochvilova's books?

coconnor - how does Soviet Periodisation fit into your schema? It has multi-pace and to a lesser degree complex characteristics, yet is also clearly periodisation in that it is the over-riding principle.

[coconnor]

I think that the Soviet periodisation would fit clearly into the periodisation methods, even though it may not be quite the same as Lydiard's system.
Of course there will be shades of grey, but I think the soviet training for distance runners was similar to Lydiard's methods (from what I have a read).

[B+]

Easy Tiger, I will keep running in that Pink top and might even wear the matchnig pants to the 21k next time. A way of motivting you to run faster and knock me off......if you can

Colin, my question relates more to the pacing of training runs for somebody running these times, as opposed to what they are lacking. For example If the athlete runs a 15km run a 25km, a 10km a 30+km and a 7km run in training in a week and the goal is aerobic running then what kind of pace variations would be expected for somebody who can run a 10km race at 3:30 pace and a 42.2km race at 4:00 pace?

I also get frustrated at times with how many people see LSD training and its pace. I believe that most people do this part of their runnning to slowly and therefore never exert enough pressure on the system to push improvement. They then go from this to their anaerobic work and this part feels hard and they then believe that they are peaking and will be ready to race, which they are, but at a much lower level than they could of acheived with better paced LSD work.
For the more experienced coaches on this thread is this a valid observation?

Edwinsoiforgold, Ignoring H/R zones and only runnning by feel is a flawed philosphy for many athletes. If you are improving and staying injury free then this is great and continue this way. For many people however at some point they either cease to improve or start to get injuries or both. This is where working with tested H/R zones is a useful tool as in my experience most athletes do their east training to hard and their hard training not hard enough, and hence become fit and perform fairly well but never acheive tip top condition and results and never really see their on potential blossom.

PJW, my understanding of Intevals vs Fartlek is more how you structure the recovery part of the session.
Intervals such as Yasso's 800's which have a 1:1 ratio is such run 800m in x:x time - rest the same time and go again
Fartlek such as Zatopec's 400/400 which is close to 1:1 but the recvoery is only slightly slower than the effort and is continious.

As for H/R zones I can put an example up for you of the zones if you like. I will use my own zones as the example, just let me know.
But as a demo
my 1st real 10km run after doing some proper H/R based training was run at 154bpm in 41.36min. 3 years later after training this way consistently, on both the run and all my bike training.
I ran 35:02min at 155bpm on the same course.
Whilst there are many factors that would have contributed here, heart rate based training was a major contributor.

Train safe

[pjw]

B+ i can't call myself experienced but for what it is worth this

"I also get frustrated at times with how many people see LSD training and its pace. I believe that most people do this part of their running too slowly and therefore never exert enough pressure on the system to push improvement. They then go from this to their anaerobic work and this part feels hard and they then believe that they are peaking and will be ready to race, which they are, but at a much lower level than they could of acheived with better paced LSD work.

is a great way of putting it.

I especially like the enough pressure comment. I think of it in terms of pressure now and wonder what is the right amount to simulate progressive overload and not overstraining or is that overtraining.

Still Building showed me an article on Mark Allen and what he did with HR stuff to recover from injury and then go on to become a living legend. When i read that article Lydiard became a lot clearer for me. The same underlying principle was being applied. Build yourself from the base up. He describes what you found over 10km. When he started limiting everything to 155bpm he was only able to run at 8:15/mile, 4 months later it had dropped a minute and after a year it was down to 5:20/mile. It took 190bpm to move at that speed a year earlier.

The article was very clear - he was building his base from under 155bpm so that he could eventually cover the end of the race at 5:00/mile and outkick anyone who was still with him.

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Edited by pjw, 31 March 2008 - 05:11 PM.

[Still Building]

pjw, on Mar 31 2008, 12:26 AM, said:

I especially like the enough pressure comment. I think of it in terms of pressure now and wonder what is the right amount to simulate progressive overload and not overstraining or is that overtraining.

When he started limiting everything to 155bpm he was only able to run at 8:15/mile, 4 months later it had dropped a minute and after a year it was down to 5:20/mile.
It took 190bpm to move at that speed a year earlier.

Hi pjw

interesting comments - u need the pressure - "best aerobic pace", but it seems a base for the base maybe helpful:) - a few very easy weeks at the end of the previous season

it is fascinating limiting the bpm and get such results.
a similar thing happened to me last year - I went overseas for 6 weeks and decided to only jog easily while away - and came back in top shape for me  - I was very surprised.

dave fitzsimmons ran his best ever 5000 13.17 (1977) after he retired from running in 1976. he got bored, started jogging, did less than the year before and became one of the leading times in the world.

perhaps a two year cycle was in action there - hard year - easy year - big result

i will get that JK (can't spell her name) to you in a couple of weeks - a friend has it now.

[Rudolf]

pjw, on Mar 31 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

Actually really interesting Rudolf. Are you making a distinction between work and rest? If the ratio is closer to 1:1 it is approaching steady running so it would be called fartlek, With walk or stop recoveries the ratio is going out to 2:1 and more. So at what ratio does it move from fartlek to interval?

Can you tell me the titles of Zatopek and Kratochvilova's books?

B+ answered the question perfectly.

the name of the boks - I cant remeber, but each of them have writen only 1, so the search by authors should find very easily.

the names are : Emil, Dana Zatopek

Kratochvilova (Jarmila) - Kvac

Kvac is surname of Kratocvilova's coach, do not remember his first name

I have never done internet searches for second hand old books, but there is plenty of website I was told who are doing this service, however I am not sure how it is with foreign languages, You would probably first need to go to czech language section...


another very interesting book I remeber very well was writen by Valerij Borzov, withthe help of his coach Piotrovski...
It was quite thin book with lots of photos illustrating the technique and drills and exercises and it was in original - russian,
I assume it was not transated either

Edited by Rudolf, 31 March 2008 - 08:08 PM.

[RichEnglehart]

pjw,

Gerschler was at the University of Freiburg when he developed his system of interval training, hence the term "Freiburg Interval Training." It involved getting the heart rate to 180 then waiting for it to return to 120 before doing the next repeat.

[Digger]

RichEnglehart, on Mar 31 2008, 08:13 AM, said:

pjw,

Gerschler was at the University of Freiburg when he developed his system of interval training, hence the term "Freiburg Interval Training." It involved getting the heart rate to 180 then waiting for it to return to 120 before doing the next repeat.

I haven't read all of this thread, but when did Gerschler come up with this method?, as we were doing our intervals off our pulse rate in 1968

[Rudolf]

this came today as part of advertising email, have fun :


Is your coach mad? Debunking popular coaching myths
Coaching has always been something of an art.
But in a thought-provoking article, Tom McNab argues that many coaches should pay more heed to science and less to following the latest trends…

It might be worthwhile to cast our eyes back to history to consider some past delusions and some that are still in vogue today. Now, not all of these ideas were totally misguided; some simply represent misapplications of valid training methods.


1. Sweating and purging – followed the existing medical theory of the 18th century, which was dictated by the four ‘humours’ (black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood), but endured well beyond the period when medieval thinking had been discarded by the medical profession.

2. Drying out - still being use even as late as the 1950s, where fluid intake was discouraged, even in marathons.

3. Interval training – used by coaches in the early 1950s, there was an assumption that interval training was some sort of universal ‘scientific’ panacea for all events; an assumption that is still sometimes made today.

4. Circuit training – based on high-repetition exercises but generally lacked specificity. Various mutations of circuit training have emerged, but little in the way of research to show that these variations have any value in specific athletic events has been performed.

5. Sand running – the early 1960s saw runners all over the world seeking out beaches and sand-quarries to no great purpose except an increase in Achilles tendon injuries!

6. 100 miles per week – prolonged endurance training will increase aerobic capacity but injury rates rise steeply around the 50 miles a week mark.

7. Speedball training – a speedball (essentially an old-fashioned punch ball) together with thousands of ‘chinnies’, dismissed as a training method for boxing, let alone athletics!

8. Passive stretching - evidence is strong that it has no protective value against injury, and indeed that it may on occasion damage muscle tissue.


Not all of the methods described here have been discredited. Some (like interval training) were simply misused or misapplied. Some, like circuit training (though of some value for the unfit) must be seriously questioned as a means of training for mature athletes.

The problem is that all have been at some time accepted as Holy Writ, and this of course begs the question of how many of our present widely accepted training methods will stand up to serious scientific scrutiny.

Edited by Rudolf, 01 April 2008 - 08:13 AM.

[pjw]

thanks Rich, i don't mind that way of thinking (180-120) just not too much. 6x150m off 3 mins does about that for me

Still Building cheers we will have to catch up again on your return. I'm off to Tassie and NZ now in my coaching break so a few weeks would be good.

Coconnor do you have any information on Soviet MD training?

Digger, great pic! Is that of you?

Rudolf, so many stimulating ideas again. i've started searching but no luck so far. One Kratochvilova seems prolific in writing about yeast farming. I may have an angle of Borzov. My coach is a former Ukrainian and has a lot of Soviet stuff hidden away. I'll ask.

Can you link the article you mention in the latest post? I'd like to throw some thoughts on each one you mentioned.

Sweating and purging i have no idea about but the idea of sweating is a good one for healing purposes ie sauna. I think we are meant to sweat multiple times a day. I don;t know if many people achieve this.

Drying out. Is this what Zatopek was inadvertently doing?

Intervals. A huge proportion of my training was intervals, if i have the definition correct. It was just a part of the whole though. There were plenty of other methods being used as well. Possibly in balance it is an essential tool.

Sand running. Well this was always part of the program in the specific preparation phase. It went with normal hills. Also did a lot of running and jumping stuff in the sandpit at the track. I like it as it allows for or creates more extension in ones limbs and torso.

100 mile weeks i'm yet to discover. May take a while and may never happen. I am of the speed-power type of decathlete. My natural level may be lower unless i want ot lose part of my anaerobic nature which i do not right now. I don't see why this idea cannot be a part of the yearly training program. As lydiard has it, and as so many of the top 20  all time best 800m do.

this excellent article by Tony Wilson is a great summary and analysis of those guys

http://z12.invisionf...p?showtopic=432

Speedball. Well there were 3 speedballs in the gym i trained at. We played with them over the years and got our skills up. We also knew Bradley the professional sprint coach had this as a core element of his training program. they did long repettions of speed ball training. We thought this was too emphasised and along with the lack of any leg weigth training basically dismissed his ideas as too unbalanced.

Circuit training. Again a major element of our training especially in the preparation phases. Endurance based circuits every year for months. Prior to beginning the serious weight training. During pre-competition phase the circuits took on a power emphasis. If you want evidence though rudolf come and do circuits with me for 3 weeks and you will be amazed at the changes that are starting to appear. Circuit training is a world i would like to talk about actually if anyone is interested.

Passive stretching. Yoga is partly passive stretching, although i think i know what you are getting at. The other part of yoga is active stretching. This isn't ballistic stretching, which is something else again, it is supported stretching ie you have to support your body weight whilst you stretch. Passive stretching to me is where you don't have to support your bodyweight. yoga sessions basically drift from periods of one to periods of another. The active phases/supported positions are the ON positions. You have to work to keep them going. The passive/unsupported are the OFF phases where your own bodyweight is causing the stretch and not muscular effort.

Overall, i think many of these things are highly beneficial if kept in balance.

Edited by pjw, 01 April 2008 - 06:01 PM.

[Rudolf]

Hey pjw,

I think You missunderstood me.

It was not an article, it was send as advertising email and i just cut the direct advertising blips and links from it, otherwise it is the whole text as it is, nothing form it is mine creation, so I am not getting on anything, I said have fun with it as I thought it was bit funny how they try to dismiss everything and confuse everybody so people in deperation will buy they coaching articles and programs. I just copy paste it to offer the humour on the topic.


I already deleted the email as I always do with their stuff otherwise I would offer the FW to YOu.
I use to subscribe to them - they are british buggers, it was very cheap, but I realize I am reading and reading, pages after pages loosing time and getting tired, and there was absolutely nothing new or usefull, although they claim to be cutting edge etc.

If it was free website I would give the link here no probs, but I am not going to help them advertise here, so sorry no link to their website.

[wombatface]

Still Building, on Mar 29 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

It has been a good discussion.
Just on Kratochvilova -I think training women for 800m is different than training men - without knowing the physiology behind it.

I've been enjoying this thread too. I'm glad Colin didn't dissuade people when he hoped it would 'die' I certainly hadn't heard of Wilfred (Wilfie) Daniels. I presume he's one of South Africa's best coaches.

I think training women for the 800m can be different. My theory: The VO2max of women is 10-12% less than for men. Therefore, developing this 'weakness' to a high level with a classic Lydiard preparation has less pay-off than for men, especially when the aerobic requirement of the 800m is less than that of the 1500m.

Rudolph, the first name of Kratochvilova's coach was Miraslav. There was a detailed story about her in Runner's World - July 1984, Jarmila! by Amby Burfoot. I'll pick out a few details of her training in my next post. Prior to the '84 Olympic boycott, Kvac said "I am thinking much about what surprises we can prepare to show them in Los Angeles." Kratochvilova replied "I am afraid he will want me to run the 1500 metres and the 400 metre hurdles."

[Rudolf]

wombatface, on Apr 1 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

Rudolph, the first name of Kratochvilova's coach was Miraslav. There was a detailed story about her in Runner's World - July 1984, Jarmila! by Amby Burfoot. I'll pick out a few details of her training in my next post. Prior to the '84 Olympic boycott, Kvac said "I am thinking much about what surprises we can prepare to show them in Los Angeles." Kratochvilova replied "I am afraid he will want me to run the 1500 metres and the 400 metre hurdles."

oh yes, Miroslav Kvac, thanks I remember now.

Jarmila was only joking, I am sure that she never did any hurdles in training and would guess that 1500 was out of the question too.

I am not sure about her current involvement with athletics, but few years back she was coaching and she was in charge
of the womens 400m team, with the main task to prepare bigger bunch for the 4x400m and the bunch was known
as Kratochvilova's girls,

Her bunch allways suppllied the national team with quality runners at 200-400-800 and formed the whole 4x400
the czech 4x400 was always very competitive and individualy the girls were getting into finals or at least semifinals but never quite to medals. But because she was producing the numbers in high quality seems that she knew what she was doing, but I just do not have any info from this era so do not know if she was using exactly the system from her active running.

would love to have that article if it exist on the net

Edited by Rudolf, 01 April 2008 - 08:56 PM.

[pjw]

hey Rudolf, i didn't think it was your own opinion. I don't know what came over me. I just started analysing without thought to humour. Bit too focussed maybe. I'm always trying to justify balance.

Wombatface i'm wondering if all physical qualities in females are a similar proportion down. Strength, speed etc. Looking forward to some quotes.

I would be prepared to start a blogpage and begin to add all of the research, stories and articles to it. However, there is already something really well developed and that is the Glenhuntly athletics club website. Tony Wilson has a great archive of stuff there. He may well appreciate people posting him stuff to add to it.

roll on

[RichEnglehart]

Digger, on Mar 31 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

I haven't read all of this thread, but when did Gerschler come up with this method?, as we were doing our intervals off our pulse rate in 1968 a

1930s. He trained Rudolf Harbrig that way.

[wombatface]

pjw, on Apr 2 2008, 12:58 AM, said:

Wombatface i'm wondering if all physical qualities in females are a similar proportion down. Strength, speed etc. Looking forward to some quotes.

pjw, perhaps you're right. It would make for an interesting study: to examine the untrained physical attributes for elite female and male 800m runners.  Difficult though, as you'd probably have to undertake it 12 months after their retirement from competition (presuming they'd stopped training). I'd like to know the 'basic speed' of the athlete (what they can run for 100m with a flying start), and their VO2max. 400m speed depends on training.  You can compare Seb Coe and Jarmila Kratochvilova's 400m PBs and there's a 2.5% difference (46.87 to 47.99).  I've no idea what their VO2max is, but I'd guess the difference is 10% or more.  For a few reasons, that's not a great example.  There's little data on the 100m PBs of 800m runners.

Anyway, back to the Burfoot article on Kratochvilova... One morning session he witnessed was 16 x 200m hill sprints (up a 12-degree incline) "twisting, slippery running in double and triple sweats", leaving "panting and flushed 52-second quarter milers in her trail".  Kvac wanted the first repeats to be slow (36 or 37 seconds).  She included eight fast ones in 32.5 to 34.5. "60 seconds after her 16th repeat, her heart is idling along at a comfy 100 beats per minute". She had the lowest pulse on the Czech team. She finished the running part of the session with "eight fast sprints up a shorter (60 metres), steeper incline". To complete the morning session she did a "casual 45 minutes of bench presses, squats and toe jumps [today using a weight of 175 pounds]" in the gym. The workout lasted two and a half hours. The article doesn't say anything about the afternoon session!

She did all her running training in areas of Vodratry Park "season after season, year after year. During the winter she sprints on frozen Medecine ("Honey") Lake. In spring she turns to hill training. Summers she jogs into a fragrant hollow where the 110 members of the Slavoj Caslov track club have laid out a 200 metre cinder straightaway and a 300 metre sawdust oval. The perfect surfaces for serious speedwork."

Kvac had been coaching Kratochvilova for 17 years, starting with sprints through high school. She ran her first 400m race at age 20 in 60.2 (1971). A year later she ran 55.0, but didn't improve further until 1976 (53.1). In 1978 she ran 51.09. "Kvac remembers that from the beginning, Kratochvilova was long on raw power, but short on pure ability. 'I understood that here comes a girl with hidden strength,' he says. 'The big question was, how can I free that strength and put it into movement?' An equally serious problem: How could he convince the timid country girl that she had the makings of a champion?"

[pjw]

Aweomely awesome Wombatface. I used to be teased by my mates when i said that. Something has to be better than awesome. Maybe because awesome is overused?

Kratochvilova what a woman and this

"Kvac remembers that from the beginning, Kratochvilova was long on raw power, but short on pure ability. 'I understood that here comes a girl with hidden strength,' he says. 'The big question was, how can I free that strength and put it into movement?' An equally serious problem: How could he convince the timid country girl that she had the makings of a champion?"

Kvac, what a coach! Not only to be able to express this, he actually made it happen. 100bpm 60 seconds later. Aerobic machine.

thanks for that

pete

ps and i totally agree with this

Summers she jogs into a fragrant hollow where the 110 members of the Slavoj Caslov track club have laid out a 200 metre cinder straightaway and a 300 metre sawdust oval. The perfect surfaces for serious speedwork."

Edited by pjw, 02 April 2008 - 05:52 PM.

[Simmo]

Mainly for Rudolf's benefit, I just want to mention another self-coached athlete who won more olympic medals than Zatopek, and was a generation older. Is it just possible that Zatopek (+ Cerutty, Lydiard & Stampfl) got some of their training ideas from Paavo Nurmi, the Flying Finn?

Edited by Simmo, 02 April 2008 - 08:26 PM.

[B+]

I am not sure where the article is (way too much paperwork lying around my place) which discussed the differences between men and women in endurance sports.
The sports covered included middle and long distance runnning, triathlon all distances, cycling, and swimming.

On average the difference in times was 11% irrespective of sport or distance. They cited examples which fell below this mark but also stated that most were by female athletes with possible drug related perfomances at the times the performance was acheived. Some were also by exceptional female athletes which were faster but these numbers were still around 8-9% slower.

If I can find the article I will provide the details.

Unfortunately at the elite level these days it is hard to know how many peroformances are clean and how many are drug assisted.

Train safe

[Rudolf]

B+, yes I remeber these studies, it was 9-11% difference.

My impression was, that the 9% should be teh norm, and when it was 11%, that was the event which was not that popular in womens athletics for some reason, and did not have any significant female athletes doing it.
While the females WR were probably drug assisted, we have to remeber that the 9% was calculated against male WR, also drug assisted.

These types of articles used to be published as part of statistical predictions of future WR and such, so perhaps there teh search needs to be directed



Karatochvilova background and her raw power, this is something which can be understood by Kenyan-Ethiopian example in long distance running. Kids with no cars, no running shoes, and no computers and TV, all their activities are physical on daily basis, any transport is by walk or run, all the games are outdoors and physicly active.

So Kratochvilova was growing in smal village with no technical comfort, it was walking and running every day to school, shops etc.
Further it was daily helping the parents around teh garden - every house used to have big garden, the life was sismilar like on a small farm, so digging soil etc as well as daily chores around animals.
Jarmila also did not have brothers, only sisters, and somehow the hard physical duties were allocated to her,
getting the timber for winter heating, getting the coal for heating with the showell down to basement, when it was delivered by truck etc. Even while top elite athlete, she might have showeleing the coal or chopping wood for 4-6 hours early morning and than comming to track session.
Kvac only said - always tell me what You had to do, so we can adjust the training etc.

This background was very similar to Zatopek's background, and to most population background.

Those days, everybody who would take up running would have body strong for it, how different it is today when sedentary jelly like peron decides to take up funrunning and teh body is cracking down, which is forcing the use of all the silly high tech shoes etc, the avergae marathon time is 1-2 hours slower than few decades ago.

How difficuklt is to train little kids, who are driven everywhere in 4WD, whos only physical activity is the use of remote control, little bodies with weak joints, soft bones, nonexisting muscles etc.

Jarmila was different, that somehow because of teh family situation she was performing the hard males job around the house, so she cames to athletics much stronger than other girls, so she can do harder training than other girls.


Zatopke-Nurmi - I do not remeber the Nurmis type of training system and philosophy, so it is not possible to comment if Zatopek took something from him. Zatopek allways mentioned Nurmi as inspiration, and motivation to beat him, but by the time he could speak or read in other languages and by the time he could meet Nurmi etc Zatopek was already elite runner and had his system firmly established.

Edited by Rudolf, 03 April 2008 - 08:40 AM.

[Mars]

chookrunner, on Mar 30 2008, 05:31 AM, said:

Mars must be where you are living, Mars.

Laver was a great player and had he been brought up today with todays equipment and training he would have adapted and been a great player today, but the game has moved on since he played. Laver at his best would not have taken a game off Federer. Half the top players back then couldn't even hit a topspin backhand e.g. Newcombe, Rosewall, Emerson. It was a game of chip and charge and they came in behind a low slice shot. The volleying was perhaps the only area of the game where the old guys would hold their own.


I'm sorry Mars, your statement that Laver would tear Federer apart is laughable.

Chookrunner. I disagree. Your You Tube shows laver hitting many drive backhands (hardly chip and charge) - and with a wooden racquet which would have a sweet spot one quarter of the size of Federer's, and much less power. Also, the strings were different back then, so Laver today would be able to impart savage spin off both wings. The level of play on that you tube that you posted with that old technology is simply extraordinary. Drop Federer into that video with those racquets and he would struggle against Laver. He would get far less free points off the groundstrokes and with his technique and those racquets would mis-hit many shots. You can't play with such a western grip with such small racquet heads with small sweet spots. He would have to hit it as flat as they are in the video you posted and hence reduce his power to ensure he didn't hit it out over the baseline.

With today's technology Laver would be dominant, a point echoed by Pete Sampras in a documentary I saw on Foxtel recently.

Also note, Laver missed many grand slams because he turned professional half way during his career and those guys weren't allowed into the grand slams whilst pro's, so his grand slam tally would have been much higher. Emerson won quite a few without the best guys there I believe.

Anyway back on topic, I think Lydiard was the best coach.

Easy Tiger difference is with the enduro approach as your threshold gets higher due to the miles each year you should get better every year and do it easier, and be able to handle a longer season. It might take 5-7 years though for the really good benefits to come through though.

Anaerobic speed based approaches a so much more of a short term approach, with less enduring benefits and ongoing improvement. The improvements stop pretty quickly.

So if you keep it up for a few more years I'd be quite surprised if you don't beat the 1:58 next year and then keep improving for every year you stick with it.

Have a lovely day.

Love Mars.

Edit the allusion to Snell and tennis is Snell was runner up in NZ under 18's tennis champs before focussing on runing. He was a left hander like Laver.

Edited by Mars, 04 April 2008 - 01:06 PM.

[pjw]

Guys i have just finished 'Cerutty's "Success in sport and life".

if you do MD then the universe requires you to read this book

it is the best thing i have read on track

also IMO Cerutty now lives on the top shelf with Lydiard. It's just that Lydiard is slightly floating above:)

[Mars]

Hi I have got a copy here of the book;

"Athletics - How to become a Champion by Percy Wells Cerutty"

Hutchinson Publishing Group Ltd (London) First Published April 1960

Interestingly, there is some crossover with Lydiard on page 176 and 177 where Cerutty advocates 100 mile weeks on occasion for the three to six mile type athlete.

Love Mars.

Edited by Mars, 08 April 2008 - 08:40 PM.

[enterthezone]

Hi mars. Same book. Different title. When was your book published? The one i've borrowed is 2nd print july 1960. My opinion has changed slightly again. I now see cerutty as more complete, more fully rounded than lydiard. I still see lydiard as perceiving further than cerutty though. Need a lydiard book though. I've been told there is another cerutty book, more specific to MD. Title anyone?

[superflake]

enterthezone, on Apr 9 2008, 09:37 AM, said:

I've been told there is another cerutty book, more specific to MD. Title anyone?

There is a book called

"Run with the best: A coach's guide to training middle and long distance running based on the Cerutty and Lydiard models.

Written by Tony Benson and Irv Ray. In paperback from 1998.

Doing a search under cerutty brought that up on www dot barnes and noble dot com.

Found the cerutty one on the amazon site.

Middle Distance Running by Percy Wells Cerutty in hardback from 1968. Published by Pelham books. It does say currently unavailable. But maybe the publisher direct might have it.

[enterthezone]

What's benson's book like? He shared an office with my coach for years and the only thing i remember is him saying just cover 20 mins jogging 3 times a week. For a decathlete this was pretty on the money.

[Simmo]

pjw, on Apr 6 2008, 12:18 AM, said:

Guys i have just finished 'Cerutty's "Success in sport and life".

if you do MD then the universe requires you to read this book

it is the best thing i have read on track

also IMO Cerutty now lives on the top shelf with Lydiard. It's just that Lydiard is slightly floating above:)

What makes Cerutty the best coach for me was his wholistic approach. The philosophical basis (stoic-spartan), lifestyle (healthy natural diet, sleep - lights out at 9pm!), weights (he was one of the first to get distance athletes using weights - got the idea from tennis great Harry Hopman), varying the training (cf Stampfl - nothing but intervals), plus he led by example. If you couldn't/wouldn't bench press your own weight, or run up an 80m sandhill, this frail old guy with a congenital heart condition would do it himself right in front of you! He was simply inspirational.

Of course, I doubt many of today's mollycoddled youth would last more than a day at Percy's Portsea training camp.

[enterthezone]

I wish i could have met him. He was the real deal. Investigating animals and the aboriginals in developing his naturalistic movement approach. The bran, raw oats and fruit before muesli was know about. There is a fantastic thread here in CR somewhere where herb elliot talks about percy. Does anyone have the link?

[Bellthorpe]

Not arguing with you, he was quite a guy. But on one point ... muesli became popular in Europe two turns of the century ago.

[enterthezone]

duplicated post

Edited by enterthezone, 15 April 2008 - 01:28 AM.

[enterthezone]

That will teach me to believe everything i hear. Was it possibly not in oz at that time? Mum made the family porridge a few times a week but that was  the 70s. Here is the link. www.coolrunning.com.au/general/2001e003.shtml

[enterthezone]

Simmo, on Apr 12 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

What makes Cerutty the best coach for me was his wholistic approach. The philosophical basis (stoic-spartan), lifestyle (healthy natural diet, sleep - lights out at 9pm!), weights (he was one of the first to get distance athletes using weights - got the idea from tennis great Harry Hopman), varying the training (cf Stampfl - nothing but intervals), plus he led by example. If you couldn't/wouldn't bench press your own weight, or run up an 80m sandhill, this frail old guy with a congenital heart condition would do it himself right in front of you! He was simply inspirational.

Of course, I doubt many of today's mollycoddled youth would last more than a day at Percy's Portsea training camp.

Simmo, i like Cerutty's wholism, whereas i like Lydiard for his depth. I looked at your profile and see orienteering as an interest. How does that work in the scheme of training for distance? And I agree with you about the youth. Fortunately, many still have the spirit to really go for something. Also, if you don't mind, what do you know about the cerutty/hopman thing.

cheers

[RichEnglehart]

If any of you get R4YL there's an interview in the latest issue with Alby Thomas who may well have been Cerutty's second most successful runner.
Actually, even if none of you get R4YL there's an interview with Alby Thomas in the latest issue.
Anyway, what I found interesting was how little input Cerutty had on Thomas's day to day training. It was all done by post and it took about a month to exchange letters so Thomas was mainly on his own. What Cerutty wrote, he said, was all motivational and insrational.

[Simmo]

Enterthezone most orienteers do similar training to distance runners - in fact many of them are also good distance runners. The 6th placegetter in the Canberra Marathon in 2:36 last weekend was Bruce Graham a 46yo orienteer. Canberra Orienteer Anthony Scott (also 46) finished 11th in the 2007 6 Foot, and is a former Australian Mountain Running Champion. Hanny Allston who is Australia's only World Orienteering Champion won the 2007 Melbourne Marathon, and her goals include to run for Australia in the World X-Cs and the London Olympics. Just over a week ago, Swedish World Orienteering Champion Erik Wingstedt posted a 1:06 at the Norwegian HM champs.

Re Hopman & Cerutty, Percy used to take Herb Elliott to Hopman's gym to work on the special equipment there - it's in Herb's book 'The Golden Mile'. Hopman also used to get his tennis players to do X-C as part of their training. I suspect Percy and Harry knew each other pretty well, and shared their coaching experiences. Percy was 10 years older than Harry, but he came to athletics and coaching late in life, when Harry had probably already been coaching for some years.

Re Alby Thomas - he definitely spent time at Percy's Portsea camp, because Herb knew (& admired) him well. Many of Percy's athletes only spent weekends and/or holidays at Portsea. Only a few lived there long-term, like Herb. I suspect Alby, when not at Portsea, would have been doing Percy-type training runs, learnt at Portsea, and as he says the letters would have been mainly motivational.

[Mars]

I love the bit where Cerutty would welcome a new athlete into his Portsea group by driving them down from Melbourne and making them get out of the car 50kms from Portsea.

If they made it to Portsea unassisted he would rate them as Champion material...

Or something like that...

Friday night they would generally drop the athletes off out of the car with 10 miles to go to Portsea and that would be the first session of the weekend...I once read Herb saying those runs were meant to be relatively easy but you put 6 athletes together and they would always end up racing each other to Portsea.

Just gold.

[coconnor]

My take on Cerutty is that he did not want to have too much input into the athletes day to day program.
He taught a philosophy and an attitude.
He would get them do a long run, then fartlek on the golf course maybe intervals on the grass oval and sprints up a sandhill. He would teach them to lift weights. Then he would leave it up to them to decide what they should do and how hard they should push themselves.
Men had to decide for themselves what to do, not be told by a coach.
He aimed to develop the personality and mental strength as much as physical prowess.

He would never tell an athlete to run 10x400m in 60s.
He saw that as restrictive and stultifying. Training should be creative.
Only ocassionally would anything in training be timed or measured or counted.

[Simmo]

coconnor, on Apr 14 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

He would never tell an athlete to run 10x400m in 60s.
He saw that as restrictive and stultifying. Training should be creative.
Only ocassionally would anything in training be timed or measured or counted.

Exactly! But he might try to get you to do something by doing it himself - setting an example. I sometimes wonder at how superfit athletes with sculptured and toned bodies can let themselves be bossed around by an obese coach. The coach might be very intelligent and be up with all the latest training techniques/theories, but I'd be wanting to know how they have the nerve to tell me to put my body on the line when they can't look after their own.

[enterthezone]

I hear you Simmo and thanks for that orienteering info, serious business!

I've been amazed these last few weeks with what i have discovered. I guess it began a little over 12 months ago when i found Lydiard. Never heard of him whilst i was a Decathlete and once i started coaching MD, there he was. I needed a lot of help but came to see what he was on about. Once i had 'realised' Lydiard i thought i had found the Holy grail of MD, and i had. It was fantastic.

fast forward a year to about two months ago. A friend (same friend that led me to understand Lydiard) loaned me 'Success in Sport and Life' by Cerutty and it sat next to my bed for the first 6 weeks with only a glance or two. Then i went to Tassie and started reading it on the plane, then on the bus and the second bus and into bed that night. The bible for me, not only for athletics but also life.

The best part of all of this was that Cerutty didn't contradict Lydiard for me in any way. They only served to reinforce each other. I find it incredible that the two giants of MD coaching lived in Melbourne and Auckland, down this far end of the planet. Lucky us!

Edited by enterthezone, 17 April 2008 - 10:22 PM.

[Digger]

Does this add anything to the discussion?

[HillsAths1]

Simmo, on Apr 14 2008, 11:58 PM, said:

Exactly! But he might try to get you to do something by doing it himself - setting an example. I sometimes wonder at how superfit athletes with sculptured and toned bodies can let themselves be bossed around by an obese coach. The coach might be very intelligent and be up with all the latest training techniques/theories, but I'd be wanting to know how they have the nerve to tell me to put my body on the line when they can't look after their own.

Simmo, I guess that it is the message that is important not who delivers it. If the coach knows their stuff it should not make too much of a difference what shape they are in. There are many ex athletes who have a wealth of knowledge, but due to many years competing are now shadows(large) of their former selves. This does not diminish their knowledge and their ability to impart.

[Jimboy]

Thanks Digger,great video.

[FreeDickland]

Useful books - if you can find them are the "How they Train" books - two editions - by Fred Wilt, a USA steeplecaser who competed at 1952 Olympics - also an FBI officer - he complied information on runners from all periods and all countries - Nurmi through to Harbig, Haag, Strand, Zatopec, Bannister, Delaney, Landy, Elliot, Pirie, Kutts, etc., etc., etc.m, as well as many lesser lights over broad range of distances and performances.

A short 1-2 (or more) page article per runner, detailing personal daa such as weight, height, time sover various distances, coaches, race history, ans summaries of their training - usually at different stages of their career and at different times of the year,

I have found these to be very useful - but can not provide much more information at moment as they are in Oz & I am in Canada so can not give any details re publishers, etc.  

A Google search may help - certainly give significant details on Harbigs work etc - could not help wondering what he may have run given impact of history on his career - his training had features of work of Cerruty, Lydiard as well as Stampl etc., - much to think about -

[Digger]

When you look at the times run in the 1940's/50's and 60's, you wonder how fast those guys with that amount of dedication could have run with our support system and advancements.
Nurmi was unbelievable back in the 1920's and 30's, and even today, Australia's elite rarely better the times other Australians  ran in the 1960's.

[Jimboy]

FreeDickland, on Apr 23 2009, 06:38 AM, said:

Useful books - if you can find them are the "How they Train" books - two editions - by Fred Wilt, a USA steeplecaser who competed at 1952 Olympics - also an FBI officer - he complied information on runners from all periods and all countries - Nurmi through to Harbig, Haag, Strand, Zatopec, Bannister, Delaney, Landy, Elliot, Pirie, Kutts, etc., etc., etc.m, as well as many lesser lights over broad range of distances and performances.

A short 1-2 (or more) page article per runner, detailing personal daa such as weight, height, time sover various distances, coaches, race history, ans summaries of their training - usually at different stages of their career and at different times of the year,

I have found these to be very useful - but can not provide much more information at moment as they are in Oz & I am in Canada so can not give any details re publishers, etc.  

A Google search may help - certainly give significant details on Harbigs work etc - could not help wondering what he may have run given impact of history on his career - his training had features of work of Cerruty, Lydiard as well as Stampl etc., - much to think about -

I would agree with you on the quality of these two Fred Wilt books which form part of my library.The first edition comprised
Volume 1 covers middle distances -first print June 1959-sixth print March 1970/Library of Congress No.73-76247/Standard Book No. 0-911520-38-4
Volume 2 covers Long Distances-first print June 1959-sixth print March 1970/Library of Congress
No.73-76248/Standard Book No. 0-911520-46-5
A later second edition completely revised was published in March 1973,the above Library of Congress Nos. and Standard Book Nos.refer to that second edition of the two volumes.
An even better publication of Fred Wilt is his second edition of RUN RUN RUN published in March 1973
which includes authoritative articles by many top athletes and,more pertinent to this thread, COACHS of that era.Names probably unknown to most today but quite eminent such as Forbes Carlisle,Bert Sumser,Brian Mitchell,Tony Ward and better known perhaps Lydiard,Igloi,Gerschler.The contributions by Toni Netti in particular
reveal how little of real substance has been added to our knowledge of training and physiology in the years since.
All these publications were by the USA TRACK & FIELD NEWS Inc.

[DontStop]

Digger, on Apr 23 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

When you look at the times run in the 1940's/50's and 60's, you wonder how fast those guys with that amount of dedication could have run with our support system and advancements.
Nurmi was unbelievable back in the 1920's and 30's, and even today, Australia's elite rarely better the times other Australians  ran in the 1960's.

Yep. But if those support systems and advancements also came with the sedentary childhoods that Australians 'enjoy' now, I don't think they'd be running any faster at all.

It's probably no surprise that Australia produced its best distance runners when modern training techniques coincided with a still-active generation of young children.

Probably gotten off topic, sorry...