51 replies to this topic

[Colsy]

The Olympic Torch is a symbol of Peace and Unity. I am morally offended by people trying to extinguish it on its journey.

[brizza]

i'm not sure it is a symbol of anything really,like a lot of things it was commercialised and politicised a long time ago,china has an appalling record of all sorts of things and i can't get interested in the olympics this time,i think the athletes should go and we should ra ra for the events but the olympics as a movement for peace-i don't think so

[Tim 2]

colsy, on Apr 6 2008, 06:10 PM, said:

The Olympic Torch is a symbol of Peace and Unity.

Says who?

The Olympic organisers!

I don't believe the promotional rhetoric of most commercial organisations why should i believe this??

colsy, on Apr 6 2008, 06:10 PM, said:

I am morally offended by people trying to extinguish it on its journey.

I'm offended by the violence used to try to extinguish the flame. The protesters shouldn't do any thing that could possibly injure others and it seems that their attempts to extinguish the flame could end in this.  If they protested non violently they'd have my full support.  It seems they've gone beyond this, using violence (just as the chinese have in the past) as a means to their desired end.  China (and its appeasers in the "west") need to lift their game on human rights but violent protest will not enhance the cause for Tibetan freedom.

Tim

[Rudolf]

my understanding of ancient Greek history is, that in the period of old oplympics, all teh states ceased any war conflicts, fightings etc, and this peace period would be lasting at least many months before the olympics, as teh news of the coming olympics sporting games was spreading the land, so these alympics messangers perhaps could be compared to the torch flame rellay thingy, but it was more about actualy delivering the news and information (that was the era before Murdochs).

If there was any state, village etc, which wopuld ignore the peace - no fight period, this state would not be invited and allowed to sport olympics.

Idea of the sport olympics was also to let the egos who is stronger etc to be realized in sport competitions rather than in the war conflicts, so the country - state - village etc ruller can send teh best athletes to fight for medals instead of sending troop to wars.

So my interpretation to these days, would be that countries which do participate in war conflicts at least those who created them by various tricky arrangements should not be allowed to participate in olympics.

So forget the China, lets see who needs to be in focuse here.

So USA and Isrtael should never be allowed to olympics and also counteries helping them, like unfortunately australia, and of course let not forget the initiators - UK

[knassy]

colsy, on Apr 7 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

The Olympic Torch is a symbol of Peace and Unity. I am morally offended by people trying to extinguish it on its journey.

You think? Try this article for size.

From the linked article:

Quote

The Olympic torch is being welcomed this weekend in the UK as a symbol of the sporting spirit, uniting people around the world in peaceful competition.

But the idea of lighting the torch at the ancient Olympian site in Greece and then running it through different countries has much darker origins.

It was invented in its modern form by the organisers of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.

And it was planned with immense care by the Nazi leadership to project the image of the Third Reich as a modern, economically dynamic state with growing international influence.

I'll refrain from saying any more.

[Shoesandsox]

Whatever the torch stands for, I certainly do not think that it stands in any way for the Chinese regime and it's political views.

I will continue to support our athletes because this is their time to shine.  Let's face it, most of us, if we were Olympic athletes, would go over to China and compete.

Remember, we gave the Olympics to China.  We could have said no.  The current political state of affairs in no surprise to anyone.

What we need to do is keep the political pressure on.  And this needs to be at the diplomatic level.  If you care, lobby your government for action.

I'm guessing none of us fall into the violent activist category.  So let's all do out bit peacefully.  But while we're at it, support our athletes.

OK, I've had my rant.

[Colsy]

Shoesandsox, on Apr 7 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

Whatever the torch stands for, I certainly do not think that it stands in any way for the Chinese regime and it's political views.

I will continue to support our athletes because this is their time to shine.  Let's face it, most of us, if we were Olympic athletes, would go over to China and compete.

Remember, we gave the Olympics to China.  We could have said no.  The current political state of affairs in no surprise to anyone.

What we need to do is keep the political pressure on.  And this needs to be at the diplomatic level.  If you care, lobby your government for action.

I'm guessing none of us fall into the violent activist category.  So let's all do out bit peacefully.  But while we're at it, support our athletes.

OK, I've had my rant.

My thoughts exactly. Trying to attack the torch leads to nothing, its symbolic ...which actually does bugger all. I just hope that we dont see scenes like that here. You take the kiddies down to see the torch pass through your neighborhood and all of a sudden it starts getting violent.
Passive protest if you need to but lay off the torch.

[Colsy]

knassy, on Apr 7 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

You think? Try this article for size.

From the linked article:
I'll refrain from saying any more.

Actually, The idea of the Olympic torch or Olympic Flame was first inaugurated in the 1932 Olympic Games in Los Angeles, the Germans came up with the idea of parading it through countries in a relay.

It symbolises the Games which, to me, symbolise Peace.

Edited by colsy, 07 April 2008 - 08:53 PM.

[Jimboy]

People have a right to protest but not by violent means.I would fully support any such protest.
When I see people protesting outside BHP-Billiton or Rio Tinto, or those major importers of cheap
Chineese goods,I might take them more seriously.
As they say,some things are bigger than sport and trade is one of them,especially if it is to our economic advantage.Gimme a break.

[victoralias]

Rudolf, on Apr 7 2008, 01:01 PM, said:

So my interpretation to these days, would be that countries which do participate in war conflicts at least those who created them by various tricky arrangements should not be allowed to participate in olympics.

So forget the China, lets see who needs to be in focuse here.

So USA and Isrtael should never be allowed to olympics and also counteries helping them, like unfortunately australia, and of course let not forget the initiators - UK

Good points Rudolf. A related thought is that there is something ridiculous about Americans, Australians etc. boycotting or protesting the Beijing Olympics on the grounds that China is a political tyrant given that the US is by far the biggest political tyrant in the world today. It would make more sense to boycott the London Olympics, or as an athlete to refuse to represent your country. Its a classic case of needing to remove the beam from your own eye so that you can see well enough to remove the speck from the eye of your brother.

Edited by victoralias, 08 April 2008 - 08:35 AM.

[Bellthorpe]

Jimboy, on Apr 8 2008, 08:06 AM, said:

When I see people protesting outside BHP-Billiton or Rio Tinto, or those major importers of cheap Chineese goods,I might take them more seriously.

But surely the responsibility lies on the shoulders of those who buy Chinese goods?

In the supermarket, for example, there's hardly a Chinese product that doesn't have a similar one not made in China.

Alas, all major brands of running shoes are made in China.

[cakeboy]

Rudolf, you are being selective with your list of countries that have started wars. Maybe you should provide a list of nations with no blood on their hands.....it will be a very short one. I can't think of any except neutral Switzerland, but then they handed over their Jews to the Germans but kept all the gold. Maybe we shouldn't eat Swiss chocolate....

There are people at work saying they hope the torch relay is a farce and that China is made accountable for Tibet.  But they wouldn't know where their clothes are made, or where the ipod they have is built etc.

One of our biggest trading partner is Japan. Some of the atrocities they inflicted upon the Chinese in WW2 are simply horrendous. ( eg the Nanking massacre) We regard them now as our friends.

It is in our nature to form groups and protect that group, often by making war to people who are a threat. There is not a nation on earth, IMO, that can see the spec in their brothers eye because of the beam in theirs...

You'd have to have the Olympics in Antarctica to find a place with no history of warmongering.

[Boonarga]

cakeboy, on Apr 8 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

You'd have to have the Olympics in Antarctica to find a place with no history of warmongering.

I'm certain there would still be people who would find something to protest about.... and then somehow twist the blame onto the USA. Such is their blind hatred.

[Rudolf]

instead of clouding teh issue with history, lets focus on present.

Say the last 2 olympic cycles - which countries are actively waging the wars on foreigh territories and which countries were behind the planninmg of those wars.

So that will keep the focus where it should be - Israel, UK, USA, Australia..

By the way for those locving the american export of democracy by the military,
do not forget to watch tonight 2 part series on Bushes Wars, 1st part 8:30, second part 10pm.

And for more interesting ifos, pick teh latest copy of Nexus, You will learn that the Kosovo was planed more than decades ago, with the planning of Yougoslavias war, and teh current result with "Kosovo independence" is basicaly securing the oil pipeline from Buklgarian port of Burgas via Kosovo territory to Albanian port, from wher it would be shiped to Rotterdam and USA, so there is no surprize, that the Albanian wishes on TYougoslavian destruction were carried ou by NATO, and that USA, UK, FRance and Germany recognized the Kosovo independence withing few seconds of the announcement.

It is also interesting how the media are propagating the torch protest, as it is very wellcome development for the Murdochs like media. Looks like the protests would be the strongest in NATO countries fuly suported by the governement agencies, although these governements also provides so called torch security arrangements.

Our current puppet is so keen on wars, starting with Afganistan, and hypocriticaly saying that reason for increased australian forces in Adfganistan which is he going to implement is the fight against the drugs. This is very bad joke as he si not going to send the troops to Afganistan to fight British and Americanm forces. Since the American invasion the production of Opium doubled to teh average yearly production (note that Talibal last 2 years before 911 nearly completely wiped out all the opium plantations and burned last few years production, so teh Taliban was targeted by Cheneys drug imperium).
The informations collected by foreign inteligfence agencies are very clear - american troops collect the opium production and transport it to military bases, from where the opium is simply loaded to american military aircrafts.

And our puppet Rudd is going to fight the drugs production in Afganistan, what a disgusting joke.

[Bellthorpe]

Rudolf, on Apr 8 2008, 01:20 PM, said:

It is also interesting how the media are propagating the torch protest, as it is very wellcome development for the Murdochs like media.

The media are carrying the stories of the torch protest because it is compelling news. That's what the media do.

Quote

Looks like the protests would be the strongest in NATO countries fuly suported by the governement agencies, although these governements also provides so called torch security arrangements.

The protests are the strongest in the countries where large numbers of people feel strongly about the Tibet issue.

[Tim 2]

Rudolf, on Apr 7 2008, 10:20 PM, said:

Our current puppet is so keen on wars, starting with Afganistan, and hypocriticaly saying that reason for increased australian forces in Adfganistan which is he going to implement is the fight against the drugs. This is very bad joke as he si not going to send the troops to Afganistan to fight British and Americanm forces. Since the American invasion the production of Opium doubled to teh average yearly production (note that Talibal last 2 years before 911 nearly completely wiped out all the opium plantations and burned last few years production, so teh Taliban was targeted by Cheneys drug imperium).
The informations collected by foreign inteligfence agencies are very clear - american troops collect the opium production and transport it to military bases, from where the opium is simply loaded to american military aircrafts.

And our puppet Rudd is going to fight the drugs production in Afganistan, what a disgusting joke.

The Taliban did what suited their political needs at the time.  At that time it suited their purpose (to keep themselves in power and suppress the general population) to stop opium production.  It now suits their purpose to maximise production to fund their fight with the NATO forces.  I've not heard of the conspiracy of widespread US involvement in the opium trade although it would not surprise me if some of the many undisciplined US troops were involved.

Do i support the overall foriegn and military policy of the US (and its allies)- NO,  but to portray the Taliban, China or other brutal authoritarian regimes as innocent victims of US imperialism is grossly misrepresenting the facts.

Tim

[Rudolf]

Chine is not victim of US imperialism, China and Russia are the powers able to stop it and therefore is the Tibet issue being used.

As for Taliban - well it was created by USA in the first place.
Opium is grown now in the erea where Taliban has no control,
it is grown in the areas where the occupying forces have control.

By the way, the insider staistics is saying, that trhe own british troops are becoming drug addicted right there in Afganistan, and it is said that they are loosing to drugs at a rate 1 batalion per year.

And Tim, if You do not know that for years Cheney is running the biggest ever drug trade, than You are missing the basic information.
His drug cartel (sorry oficialy the oil,building,army etc contractors company Haliburton), has biggest storage facilities
in Columbia and in the south asian drug triangle.

China might keep some people in prison, teh people who would like to give China to american-british interest, similar situation was and possibly still is in Russia. those peopel would be willing to sell their countries for $$$, as it happened in former eastern europe block countries.

However teh human rights issue is quite interesting and allways put americans as teh worst offenders - their humans rights abuse of foreigners - as far as I know Guantanamo is run by americans not by chines.

The biggest number of prisoners is in america, much bigger than in china, wher teh population is much bigger anyway, that was not teh number of prisoners per capita it was total absolute number.

Every state in america (USA) has bigger budget to run states prisons systems than has budgets for higher educartion.

It does not really matter from which angle You look at it, the USA should not be allowed to olympics,

but that will not happen as we need to only have a close look at who owns the olympics, not only via TV rights and such but who really owns teh sport olympics bodies and comities.

Edited by Rudolf, 08 April 2008 - 04:27 PM.

[Jogger]

Quote

The protests are the strongest in the countries where large numbers of people feel strongly about the Tibet issue.

The sad thing is that in 57 years since the Chinese invasion of Tibet, it is this protest that is headline news all around the world.

Genocide goes unnoticed but the chance of interfering with sport (or watching a good punchup) is what hits the mark.

[Bellthorpe]

You're quite right Kev, but whatever the reason, it's good that it does become an issue, is it not?

[Steve 'The Footman']

For those who like to look at the Olympics through rose coloured glasses the protests may be shocking.  However the Olympics have always been a political attempt at oneupmanship through sport.  The East Germans systematically cheated in order to improve their international standing and keep their ignorant and fearful populace subjugated.  China itself used widespread drug taking regimens in a failed attempt to get the Olympics in the year 2000.  Even in Ancient Greece it was a way to prove your village was better than your neighbors.

I think the Torch protests are more interesting than the torch relay.  All we need is a protest during the mindnumbing opening ceremony and I will be happy.

[undercover brother]

had to laugh at the olympic spokesperson when this whole issue started a few days ago.
she was on telly stating that she couldnt believe people were protesting at the torch relay.
'didnt they realise they were ruining the day of the poor torch-bearer'.
yeah and dont china realise they are commiting human rights violations on a massive scale.
a bit of perspective you stupid cow!
having said this i dont like the associated violence.
but i do find the swat team currently surrounding the torch-bearers quite entertaining.

[Bellthorpe]

undercover brother, on Apr 8 2008, 08:31 PM, said:

had to laugh at the olympic spokesperson when this whole issue started a few days ago.
she was on telly stating that she couldnt believe people were protesting at the torch relay.

I have to laugh when I read of a 'spokesperson'.

Originally coined to make a 'gender neutral' version of spokesman, it now means 'spokeswoman'.

All the major press use 'spokesmen' and 'spokespersons' to refer to 'spokesmen' and 'spokeswomen'.

[run to the hills]

Rudolf, on Apr 8 2008, 02:20 PM, said:

instead of clouding teh issue with history, lets focus on present.

Rudolf I have a focus on the present question for you as I can't after reading all your posts here know where you stand.

Do you think pople should use the torch as a means of protesting?

Do you think China should be in Tibet?

Just so you know, I don't think the torch should be attacked as it represents the games which represent peace among nations as you already indicated but I think China should not be in Tibet.

PS Down with the Taliban and Al qaeda

[undercover brother]

run to the hills, on Apr 8 2008, 09:41 PM, said:

Do you think China should be in Tibet?

my sister in law is chinese and i asked her this very same question.
her response?
there is no tibet.
only china.

[azza]

I think all protests should be kept out of the public eye, and not interfere with anyone's life. Those protesters should know better.

[Twopennys]

The IOC facilitated all this (either knowingly or unwittingly) when they awarded China the games - the Olympics have been used as a political football since before WW11 - big surprise when a country with an appalling human rights record (sweatshops, Tibet, effectively starving 1000's in Taiwan - just to name a few) and who are veritable ecological terrorists (having been there I've witnessed the toxic discharges factories pour into rivers and the crap they pump into the sky etc) that there is any protest - gosh I'm shocked!

Whilst I don't endorse violent protest I certainly can't see why China was awarded the games - the arguement that it forces them to become more mainstream is just crap - they are a government used to getting their cake and eat it too and you can bet your bottom dollar that some fat cats are getting obscenely rich while Jiang average still gets exploited.

This isn't a bash against the Chinese - on the whole they are a wonderfully generous and honest people - but their government and industrialists generally suck.

As for the topic - it is really interesting that Kevin 07 has something else to do the day it arrives in Oz - not violent but certainly a calculated snub.

Rant ends.

Cheers, 2P

[run to the hills]

undercover brother, on Apr 8 2008, 10:47 PM, said:

my sister in law is chinese and i asked her this very same question.
her response?
there is no tibet.
only china.

Prior to WW1 there was no Iraq.

The British and the League of Nations, predecessor of the UN, gave us that.

[Rudolf]

run to the hills, on Apr 8 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

Rudolf I have a focus on the present question for you as I can't after reading all your posts here know where you stand.

Do you think pople should use the torch as a means of protesting?

Do you think China should be in Tibet?

firstly I think, that the whole idea of torch is very meaningless exercise, vaste of money and resources not achieving anything usefull.

Protesting is allways done at whatever venue place and time it makes an impact, so if the protest was genuin, the torch rellay is as good as anytyhing else.

Should China be in Tibet ? Yes and no.

The simple strategy to the total world dominance is divide and rule, as the world gets divided into smaller and smaller entities, to the point that the part is so small that it has no real economic, cultural, political etc power at all and is left dependant on neigbours and bogger powers basicaly becoming modern colony.

So with using the intrigues, double agents money dirty deals etc, the nations and countruies gat divided and divided.
Yougoslavia was forced to war from outside to spilt into smal pieces, czechoslovakia was broken down into 2 parts with further outside pressure of breaking off smaller minority based teritories, The sovoiet union was broken down and smaller part going to the wolrd enemy.
Tnesion is in Belgium and Canada to break down by language, etc, nearly each African country is manipulated to fighting civil wars or real wars based on ethnic difference religion difference etc,

Who benefits ?

What is the real history of Tibet teritory ?

And who really wanna rule in Tibet ?

What would reaaly happen if the China would leave teh tibet tomorow completely and leave it on its own ?

The answer is in hundred year old strategy books by british politicians and military strategists.

Their theory migh be older than 100 years but recently is even more actual than in the old days.
Their idea is that the power can be exercised frm middle of the land mass. They regard the europe and Asia as 1 land mass, often adding Africa to it. So there is their reason for london creation of war strategies in middle east for the artificial creation of Israel and sticking it in the middle of oil fields.

British wanted tio occupy Tibet allways and they do not deney it, ot at least have not denye in the past.

These days the ownership of Tibet teritory or at least permamanet military base would be crucuial to world rulership and military power over the rem,aining 2 entities - Russia and China.

austraklian population is not aware about the issue of american radar intended for Czech teritory wit adjacent rocket lounching base in Poland. This is to attack Russia, but officialy the Cheneyiacs used the Iran threat coverupp.

The radar from Czech teritory coupled wit radar in Iceland or somewher there can reproduce computerized imiga of all Rusia airspace from certain altitude up, this is to control all regarding the space programm, satelites, rocket lounching etc.

This arrangement is limited by the distance and trhe above sea level etc. Now if They can build radar in Tibet, they could see all China and all Rusia at teh same time, can instal cvarious other technologies like EM beams and such, emitors of very low frequncies pulsing fields ( read Tesla) etc.

So as it stands right now, the China presence in Tibet is saving the whole world from total naci destruction of the planet by the nearow naci group run from London which is using the USA as a fool country to fight their wars.

So of Course the protest against China in Tibet is orginized by governements and has full aproval and support of governement agencies of countries like UK, USA, Australia and currently also the pupet regimes in France and Germany.


Juts look at it from perspective - if in any of these countries there was genuine people protest agianst something which would be not liked by the governement agencuies, would the protest actually succed and would be allowed to go ahead ?

Just remeber the meetings of G7 and similar. Any registered potential protesters were arrested in their home cities, were not allowed to travekl to Sydney etc, and anybody somehow sneaking all this would be beaten up badly without any access to legal help etc.

So if the governement of NATO countries would like to have the olympic tourch rellay undisturbed, they would easily round up anybody with Tibet issue sympathy and drop them in concentration camp indefinitely or at least till the olympics are over

Is this happening ? No, the governements are happy about the Tibet protesters, and treh security is inly there to keep the falme burning sio the protest can go with the torch around the world.

It is quite hypocrytical how some peopel can scream about Chinas human rights issue.

So how come there were ever olympics in USA and are going to be in London ?

Howe come that Israel is allowed to participate at olympics at all - the never exited before ste created by London only with 1 purpose to abuse humnans rights on every level in foreigh teritories and provide the permanenet destabilization factor the permanent tension, and the permanent reason to start war whenever needed by falling economy, the nede for extra oils or commodities etc.

[Tim 2]

Rudolf you make lots of bold claims and give very little evidence!!!!!

Show us the smoking guns (and opium pipes) and maybe we'll believe your conspiracy theories.

Tim

[Rudolf]

Tim, quite a strong words.

Why are You so lazy and only read and watch Murdochs type of media.

Information is really everywhere and in abundance.

as for Cheney, well last night 2 parts documnetary made Cheney + Rumsfeld the scapegoats, trying to save teh system and teh powers behind and throwing the 2 agents out the windows, these are disposable.

But You would not have watched even those from mass media have You ?

I am quite happy Tim for You to keep Your own model of he world I am not here to serve You the infos and proove to You anything. I simply present my views based on infos I have, You present Yours on the infos You have, thats what the forum is for.

[brizza]

Tim 2, on Apr 9 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

Rudolf you make lots of bold claims and give very little evidence!!!!!

Show us the smoking guns (and opium pipes) and maybe we'll believe your conspiracy theories.

Tim

hi tim,rudolph is a very passionate person and writes very quickly(i think)but if you have the energy you can choose a RUDIfact from his posts and find a reasonable basis for what he says,i enjoy reading up on his posts if i can,i know for a fact-bcause i was there that the brits were trying to colonise afghanistan,a few of the old afhanis still had british passports, and that the taliban hated the idea of opium being grown there after the russians left and tried to destroy all of it,muslims generally hate alcohol and some other drugs and will work towards a pure muslim state if they can-indonesians want bali to be fully islamic and it really irks some of them that we westerners go there and behave the way we do,
rudi throws out these bold statements,
enjoy-briz

[Colin]

Rudolf, on Apr 9 2008, 09:54 AM, said:

Howe come that Israel is allowed to participate at olympics at all - the never exited before ste created by London only with 1 purpose to abuse humnans rights on every level in foreigh teritories and provide the permanenet destabilization factor the permanent tension, and the permanent reason to start war whenever needed by falling economy, the nede for extra oils or commodities etc.

Careful Rudolf. You know if you start mentioning Israel then people will say you are anti-semitic.

Next thing you know someone will mention Israel being a Jewish state (and designed to stay that way through selective citizenship and law of return), or the existence of  Jewish diaspora (with its own ministry) influencing opinion in other countries through support of Govt and media ownership... all coincidences of course.

[AlunDavies]

As someone said earlier, when they start protesting outside BHP and Rio Tinto offices I may take them a bit more seriously.

So I can assume that the larger majority of posters on this thread don't by any chinese products given the justification of interfering with the torch on the basis of human rights issues in China?

If I had two free tickets to the finals of choice at the games, all expenses paid with a note from your boss, who on here wouldn't go?

[Colsy]

From an outsiders perspective it appears to me that the Chinese have not been known to conquer other countries throughout history, but are extremely protective of their existing territory.
Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and the subsequent internal turmoil. It wasnt until 1949 after the Communists won government that the Chinese were organised enough to go and claim it back.
The issue is that China will never view Tibet as independant. To them it never was independant, the 1911 declaration being illegal in their eyes.

[Bellthorpe]

TaffTrail, on Apr 10 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

So I can assume that the larger majority of posters on this thread don't by any chinese products given the justification of interfering with the torch on the basis of human rights issues in China?

I can't speak for the larger majority. My wife and I wherever possible do not buy Chinese products. This has been our policy for some years. It's based on Chinese human rights policies, as well as the Chinese Government's support for such activities as gall bladder 'farming' from captive bears, and the skinning of animals alive for fur.

I said 'wherever possible', but it's not always possible. For example, I have yet to find decent running shoes made outside China. But on supermarket shelves, for example, it's an easy decision, as there's always an alternative product.

These are not easy matters to assess. Most every country in the world is guilty of some atrocities, including our own. But make choices we do, every day.

Quote

If I had two free tickets to the finals of choice at the games, all expenses paid with a note from your boss, who on here wouldn't go?

I wouldn't ... but thanks for the offer!

[Jogger]

colsy - reading the history of the tibetan empire China is never mentioned until 750AD when it took most of Tibet, but as you can read its a bit of tit v tat for many years with the Mongols, Nepalis and Chinese going at it hammer & tongs. It would be hard to argue that the HAN Chinese have any claim over a country with different ethinc groups living there since pre-history (my opinion at any rate). Drawing a line from 1911 and ignoring previous 2000 years is a bit premature...

[Rudolf]

the followink link is interesting not sio much fro the article, but for the discussion.

http://www.libertyfo...C...mp;vc=1&t=0

It also puts very interesting angle on what Australia is and is not, so while nobody living here can be sure what Australia is, how anybody here could be sure what Tibet is and is not

[Steve 'The Footman']

China would not be having such a problem with Tibet if the government treated them as equals to other Chinese.  Instead they have tried to destroy their culture, exiled their spiritual leader and used mass immigrations to dilute the strength of the local populace.  In fact China has treated Tibet in a similar way to most imperial powers over the many milleniums of human civilisation.  I think the aboriginals would very likely be in a much better way if we had not used similar forms of cultural and human genocide in Australia.

What is making this type of thing so difficult for China is the ease of modern information collection and dispersal.  You think they would have learned something after Tianamin.  Unfortunately it can only go badly for all concerned without a change in attitude by Beijing.  Good luck with THAT!

I applaud Bellthorpe with his think globally and act locally attitude.  I wish I was as morally strong.

[Bristol City FC]

Quote

British wanted tio occupy Tibet allways and they do not deney it, ot at least have not denye in the past.

  

If some people had a brain they'd be dangerous.

Well done colsy, your brief statement brought to the surface all the latent bigotry and fantasy theories from the 'usual suspects'.

For me there is only one common thread regarding all of this; HYPOCRASY.

yes, China's human rights record is diabolical, yes in a perfect world the games would not have been given to them, but all this shows is that sport and politics are totally intertwined, you cant seperate them, it was political to give them the games, they wanted them to advance their standing politically.

People who say that you should keep sport seperate from political issues are in my view, at best totally niave, at worst complicit in the atrocoties of the regimes they choose to ignore for the sake of 'sport'.

One poster had a very good point, if we excluded all the countries who commit atrocoties both past and present, there would hardly be any countries to take part!

To me nothing wrong with protesting about China, but dont be hypocritcal about your own country, which is just as bad if not worse than China, such as the good old USA, they like illegally invading countries, using torture, denying basic human rights to people they dont like, as well as their own citizens who cant pay for services, Britain, much the same as US, without thankfully the 'have a nice day' or 'missing you already' sincerity of the US, Australia, treatment of refugees, asylum seekers, vietnam war, stolen generation, etc, Russia, again political incarceration, torture, Isreal, indiscriminate bombing of Palestine, Lebenon, indiscrimate bombing of Isreal, France, their colonisation of other countries, Spain the same thing, Germany, the Nazi atrocoties, Ireland, the terrorist atrocities on icconent cilivians, Portugal, their colonisation of countries like Brazil, South Africa, their aparthid years, Japan, their atrocities in WWII and others in China,
This is just a few countries with some of their sins, there are far too many countries with far too many crimes too mention, plus whatever third world east european country some fantasy theorists come from, I'm sure can be added to the list.

So for all of us banging on about other countries crimes against humanity from our smug moral high ground, we conveniently or ignorantly choose to ignore those committed by our own governments. We always seem to have some convienient justification for those, dont we?

Sport/politics, one and the same in terms of aims. If there was no political capital in sport and the olympics, the pollies would not be interested in attaching themselves to them.

Its about time we admitted that politics in sport has always been there and alweays will be, stop being hypocrites about other countries involvement because of their crimes, when our own countrities crimes are as just as bad.
Oh, I forgot, its because its in the name of democracy, isnt it? oh, thats all right then.  

Edited by Bristol City FC, 10 April 2008 - 07:43 PM.

[scurry711]

brizza, on Apr 9 2008, 01:49 AM, said:

hi tim,rudolph is a very passionate person and writes very quickly(i think)but if you have the energy you can choose a RUDIfact from his posts and find a reasonable basis for what he says,i enjoy reading up on his posts if i can,i know for a fact-bcause i was there that the brits were trying to colonise afghanistan,a few of the old afhanis still had british passports, and that the taliban hated the idea of opium being grown there after the russians left and tried to destroy all of it,muslims generally hate alcohol and some other drugs and will work towards a pure muslim state if they can-indonesians want bali to be fully islamic and it really irks some of them that we westerners go there and behave the way we do,
rudi throws out these bold statements,
enjoy-briz

On my honeymoon I was on a bus tour of Europe, there were about 50 Muslim Indonesians on the bus. At every road side servo we stopped at the males went straight to the newsagent stand and looked at and bought every porno mag in the place. In fact I don't think that there was any porno mags left in Europe on the route we took that trip. Just goes to show it doesn't matter where you come from, what type of religion you preach and what you say about others, there are hypocrites at every level.

Now, what was this topic about again?

[TRAVY]

Is it worth the costs for the Australian leg of the Olympic torch relay when have blown out amid fears the international event will be marred by ugly protests.

Pro-Tibetan demonstrators have followed the flame through Europe and North America and promise to greet the torch when it passes through Canberra on April 24.

Australian Capital Territory Chief Minister Jon Stanhope said the initial budget for the relay was about $900,000, but the bill has been pushed much higher.

[Colsy]

JoggerKev, on Apr 10 2008, 04:31 PM, said:

colsy - reading the history of the tibetan empire China is never mentioned until 750AD when it took most of Tibet, but as you can read its a bit of tit v tat for many years with the Mongols, Nepalis and Chinese going at it hammer & tongs. It would be hard to argue that the HAN Chinese have any claim over a country with different ethinc groups living there since pre-history (my opinion at any rate). Drawing a line from 1911 and ignoring previous 2000 years is a bit premature...

I can dig that JoggerKev. But where do we stop with all this? Israel, Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Taiwan and the list goes on. Claims for independance, territory wars, conquerings, invasions over thousands of years...who is who at the end of the day. Does the Anglo 200 year possession of Australia hold more water than Chinas' 1200 year claim to Tibet?
Does the invasion of Iraq hold even more. We invade a sovereign country on the basis of a gut instinct, kill 4000 of our own troops and 75,000 - 100,000 of their people and then get on on our high horse and say "China out of Tibet".

God help us if they ever discover oil in  Hutt River Province.  

[Steve 'The Footman']

Bristol City FC, on Apr 10 2008, 07:42 PM, said:

For me there is only one common thread regarding all of this; HYPOCRASY.

If it is going to be about hypocrissy then you should at least spell the word rite.

I agree with your sentiments though.

Colsy it is obvious that it ends when the process is complete.  Not many aboriginal activists in Tasmania are there?  

China will not be giving up Tibet without a fight that Tibet can not win.  People asking to free Tibet are dreaming.  A realistic person would be trying to have Tibet have some autonomy from Beijing similar to what Hong Kong enjoys.  Violent protests will mean more dead Tibetans and less autonomy and freedom in Tibet.  The court of public opinion may prove me wrong.  Although the Chinese government has appeared overly sensitive to criticism they have proved intransigent to it as well.  I am all for protesting at things we do not like in the world.  However a bit of constructive activism is generally less painful and more effective.  It is what the Dali Lama is suggesting as well.

We tend to like the underdog and especially if they are up against the big faceless power of China, America, the Catholic Church etc etc.  The reality of the political situation is not always reflected by what occurs on the ground.  Would Tibet be better off having the past history of Nepal?  Are the East Timorese better off now that they are autonomous?  The reality of the human condition is that we chafe under the masters collar and prefer our own injustice to that imposed by another.

[Bellthorpe]

Bristol City FC, on Apr 10 2008, 07:42 PM, said:

So for all of us banging on about other countries crimes against humanity from our smug moral high ground, we conveniently or ignorantly choose to ignore those committed by our own governments. We always seem to have some convienient justification for those, dont we?

I don't agree. The 'crimes against humanity' of our own government and our allies are offensive to many, and protested against by many.

The hypocrisy of our own government is well enough publicised. As an example, the Government protests (rightly) against Japanese whaling but allows live sheep exports.

[run to the hills]

Just saw the Sydney and Melbourne Chinese communities doing a pro China protest on the news.

Like to try that in Tianamen Square.

Maybe we should have used tanks to dispurse the protesters.

[Colsy]

It makes me very happy to see so many views expressed here without an argument. Many other forums would have fallen in to a heap by now over issues like this one.
The other day, on an Aviation forum I am a member of, I watched a fight breakout over an aviation  issue. It ended in abuse and insults from all angles and the thread was locked. It happens all the time on that forum, I am seriously thinking of quitting for that reason.
So, thank you CRs.
A friend of mine has a theory that there are no AFL or NRL spectator riots beacause the aggression and spectacle is out on the field (unlike Soccer).
I wonder if we are so tolerant because we expend that energy out in our pastime, or maybe we are all just blimmin' nice!  

[FakePlasticTrees]

run to the hills, on Apr 13 2008, 06:59 PM, said:

Just saw the Sydney and Melbourne Chinese communities doing a pro China protest on the news.

Like to try that in Tianamen Square.

Maybe we should have used tanks to dispurse the protesters.

I was going to ignore this comment, however as it is pretty misguided I thought I probably should reply. A pro china rally in Tianamen square would be endorsed even probably sponsored by the government.

[run to the hills]

FakePlasticTrees, on Apr 14 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

I was going to ignore this comment, however as it is pretty misguided I thought I probably should reply. A pro china rally in Tianamen square would be endorsed even probably sponsored by the government.

What I was getting at was an event of that scale causing a public disturbance in Tianamen Square would not be allowed to take place. Our country however tolerates an anti protest protest because to stop it would violate civil liberties. I think the whole thing is getting ridiculous.

Obviously a Pro China government rally in China would be endorsed.

Sorry to confuse the issue.

[Rudolf]

is the olympics still on ?

Perhaps they should be replaced by noncommercial friendly athletic games by individual athletes who are not taking drugs.

Something like masters games for under age athletics.

[Bristol City FC]

Quote

British wanted tio occupy Tibet allways and they do not deney it, ot at least have not denye in the past.

OH GOD! I WISH BRITAIN HAD TIBET.........Just can't make my mind up where to go for my Winter Holidays...........