34 replies to this topic

[Colsy]

I went to the Pod the other day for the first time. Nice bloke. He told me that I have mild pronation, no surprise. He said that I should be running in a shoe with more stability, no worries. He works out of the back of a running store so he is able to bring in various shoes for trying on and a run on the treadmill. I tried Kayanos, 2130s, Saucony Hurricanes etc.

I though I would like the kayanos and 2130s as I have always been an Asics fan. They felt awful, the arch support was so prominent and I imagined blisters.
The Hurricane instantly felt nice but I took a run on the tready and they felt very clumsy. My heel kept striking the surface and my feet sounded very loud.
At no time did the Pod pressure me to buy these shoes.

My issue is that I love my Nimbus 9s. From the day I first put them on it has been a beautiful relationship. When I am running in them I can hardly hear my feet hit the ground. I have only been running for about four months but I have had no injuries in them. I currently to 25K a week.
Do I run the risk of having injuries in a neutral shoe as I increase my mileage?
Has anyone else changed from neutral to stability and managed it well?

What about the old days before all this technology came along?

[Phoenix]

Colsy, the way I look at it, I don't fork out $200 for professional advice and then say I know better. If you are going to increase distance, there is a very good chance you will be injured. However, there are a couple of options:

1) Keep going in the Nimbus, increase the distance - 'suck it and see' as they say
2) There are numerous other slight stability shoes on the market - perhaps try other brands until you find one you like (Brooks, New Balance, Mizouno etc).

When I visit my Pod, he gives me a list of shoes that he says are built for someone with my weight, my arches, my width of foot. I go out and buy what he tells me.

Having said that, I still get injuries, because I am stupid...Not enough stretching, too intense, too much distance too soon etc, etc, etc, and no Pod can fix that.

[Rudolf]

colsy, on Apr 25 2008, 12:12 AM, said:

What about the old days before all this technology came along?

there were much less running injuries,
the pods physios etc were doing it hard.

The average maraton time was about 1 hour faster for the midpack runners, and If You did not run under 3hours Your running friends would just laught at You.

The training was done in Dunlop Volleys and racing in extremely thin racing flats, costing the fraction of current prices.

Those old days was the runners heaven.

These days it is shoes manufacturers shoes salespeople, physios, pods etc heaven.

But the people taking up running those days were people use to physical works use to lots of walking and time on their feet
they were not sedentary office workers or the 4WD computers kids.

So those old days peopkle actualy had functional legs with working muscles and tendons and they had natural strenght in core of the body, so they would not need any running crutches, they could just run in the simplest shoes protecting the soles form skin injury and from cold.


In recent London marathon the jokers running in huaracha sandals - pieces of tyres straped to their feet, run much faster than lots of runners in aiscs, nikes mizunos addidas NB and whatever is the name of manufacturer of the high heels

[tank girl]

Did you run in the Nimbus shoes for your podiatrist?

How much of a problem it causes will depend on the distances you're running and how strong you are. I alternate neutral and stability shoes on a regular basis. Perhaps you could try that - start out using your Nimbus for longer runs and stability shoes for short runs, and then as you get more used to your stability shoes, use them for longer runs.

[Bellthorpe]

Colsy, I'm not understanding something. Why did you go to the pod? If I read your post correctly, you don't have any foot related problems. I can't for the life of me imagine why you would change your shoe type ...

[Colsy]

Bellthorpe, on Apr 25 2008, 05:27 PM, said:

Colsy, I'm not understanding something. Why did you go to the pod? If I read your post correctly, you don't have any foot related problems. I can't for the life of me imagine why you would change your shoe type ...

Good question, I'd read about pronation, suppination etc, so I thought, in order to prevent future injury, I should visit the Pod to find out if I was doing the right thing by wearing the Nimbus. Plus, every other runner I met always said, "have you visited a Pod yet"?
I just didnt expect the supporting shoes to feel that uncomfortable, compared to my present shoes. And it just seems weird to get out of my comfortable shoes and in to uncomfortable ones.

So my question is - Is comfort enough of a guage in choosing your running shoe? That is what I used when I chose the Nimbus, in those days I thought Pronation was a special country set up for hookers.

[Twopennys]

Colsy - I reckon the reason you like the Nimbus so much is that they are one of the most cushioned shoes on the market - this is because people who supinate jar their body more as their foot doesn't roll through same motion as a neutral or pronating foot fall. Could be just that you have become used to wearing pillows on your feet.

As said above there are squillions of different shoes on the market - Kayano's are the big kahuna's of stability shoes yet your pronation is only described as mild - so there should be plenty more options to choose from.

You've got a pair of shoes you like now that shouldn't do you any harm at the kms your running - so take your time and shop around - I usually visit at least 17 shops and try on 43 different pairs before getting the same shoe I had last time

Cheers, 2P

[tank girl]

And when you try them on in the shop, do at least 4km in them, so you see what they're like once you're warm. Plus this way you can get about a month of training in without owning a pair of shoes...

[Sunset]

colsy, on Apr 25 2008, 12:12 AM, said:

The Hurricane instantly felt nice but I took a run on the tready and they felt very clumsy. My heel kept striking the surface and my feet sounded very loud.

Interesting you say this because I have recently started running in Hurricanes and thought my foot 'plod' was a lot louder than usual....

[fitzy]

tank girl, on Apr 25 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

And when you try them on in the shop, do at least 4km in them, so you see what they're like once you're warm. Plus this way you can get about a month of training in without owning a pair of shoes...

Yeah the interest rates are making people do all kinds mof drastic things!
On a buget hey.....

[blair]

Colsy, I recently switched from a motion control shoe (Mizuno Wave Alchemy) to a neutral show (Mizuno Wave Creation) and haven't had a problem with either. Not sure how this helps you but just thought I'd mention that I don't have a problem with neutral shoes. I do wear orthotics though.

[Colsy]

Thank you to everyone for the discussion, I think I will just take my time trying on a few different brands. May even buy a couple of last seasons models. Harbour Town has last years model Sauconys for $70.

[Bellthorpe]

colsy, on Apr 25 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

Quote

Colsy, I'm not understanding something. Why did you go to the pod? If I read your post correctly, you don't have any foot related problems. I can't for the life of me imagine why you would change your shoe type ...

Good question, I'd read about pronation, suppination etc, so I thought, in order to prevent future injury, I should visit the Pod to find out if I was doing the right thing by wearing the Nimbus. Plus, every other runner I met always said, "have you visited a Pod yet"?

OK. I've never heard a runner say that, but I guess times change. My view would be that you might do that if you have a problem, and you don't seem to have a problem.

Quote

I just didnt expect the supporting shoes to feel that uncomfortable, compared to my present shoes. And it just seems weird to get out of my comfortable shoes and in to uncomfortable ones.

So my question is - Is comfort enough of a guage in choosing your running shoe? That is what I used when I chose the Nimbus, in those days I thought Pronation was a special country set up for hookers.

You were right. If you're comfortable in your present shoes, stay with them.

I would urge you to re-read Rudolf's post earlier.

It's the minority of runners who need special shoes. We all pronate or supinate to some degree or other. It's normal. Many foot problems are brought about by running too far, too soon.

There are many runners who've been running for years (I'm one) who don't ever get blisters, no matter what socks they wear; who don't get foot problems, no matter what shoes they wear; who don't get chafed, no matter what gear they wear ... because they've grown accustomed to the rigours of running over the years with gradual increase in mileage and intensity.

When I first started running, I got a bad case of "runner's knee". I was fortunate enough to see a good practitioner who ran, and he said "just run on the other side of the rode for a while". I did (opposite camber). Problem fixed. It never came back. Take from that what you will ...

[Colsy]

Bellthorpe, on Apr 25 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

OK. I've never heard a runner say that, but I guess times change. My view would be that you might do that if you have a problem, and you don't seem to have a problem

Times do change Bellthorpe. I know nothing about running (but I'm getting there). More experienced runners advised me to go to a Pod to assess my pronation.
I went.
I posted.
We discuss.

[blkbox]

Colsy - this might sound a bit odd but it will make some sense to you in a moment - have you lost any weight since you took up running??

Changes in weight will have a direct effect on the biomechanics and efficiencies of your running style. You may have noticed your foot striking the floor differently, a drop in the "slap" noise with each stride etc.

When I started running I was still shedding many of those excess kilos I had gained. I needed a very different shoe to what I wear today, - I have also moved from using Brooks to Mizuno as they suit my need much better than the Brooks.

Everyone will have their own opinion (and favorite) shoe type or brand, but we are all different and just because one shoe works for one individual that does not mean it will be the right one for you.

I brought one pair of Brooks after being put through a series of exercises on a treadmill in the running shop - only to find a couple of weeks later that they didn't suit me - ended up with a painful knee after every run, so I just use them for walking in.

If you have a good running store where you are go and spend some time with them - I have a great relationship with the guys that own the one close to me, and it makes a huge difference - they get to know you and your feet and should be able to point you in the right direction. After all they will want you to keep going back and buying from them.

[Rudolf]

about Nimbus :

these seems to be somehow special shoes, and I might go as far as saying, that perhaps these shoes can do teh absorbtion for You, if You do not want to develop teh proper running muscles and biomechanics.

Or they can do the absorbtion, if You get really tired, from long kms and long hours day in day out of running.

Or they can do treh absorbtion for You so You can save teh muscles from teh workload and so You can run much longer.

It comes at a cost and thats the speed of the run.

Some of You might know-remeber the CR runner Vlatik Skvaril (he is not on the forum since some loogin difficulties since teh forum change of the server etc). Vlastik is the runner who came second in the multiday ultra in the desert few years back, did the Sparthathlon in the very first year he took up ultras, Has done few 6 day races in Colac, hiolds teh age category world record at 48H (as a split at 6 days), last 2 days of last Colac was running with Kouros helping him to keep teh pace for teh WR.
Vlastik did last year the run from the southest point of Tassie to northest point in QLD, averaging perhaps 70kms each day on the road, has run around Tassie and is preparing the run from westrnest point in WA to easternest point in NSW, starting this jully.

Vlastik is using Asics Nimbus, most of the previous achievemnt in Nimbus 8, currently the 9.

Was sponsored by asics on his south to north run, given clothing and shoes (about 4 opairs from memoery).
Vlastik was doing easily 1000kms+ in 1 pair before swithching to next pair but comenting it as a simple precaution, not throwing the shoes out after 1000km, using them later at home for short daily runs.
He was using teh same pair every day, so no need to give teh shoes 1-2 days off to recover the material as is the need with lots of other shoes.
Vlastik never had any feet problem, no feet pain and no blisters at all.
And each morning was fresh to get up and run again with no muscle sorenes etc.

At the last running of Colac, Kouros who was using racing flats (very old pairs, and the surface was hard since it was very dry) developed serious pain in his feet and in the bones below the knee etc.
So the last 2 days Vlastik offered Kouros his own shoes and changed into his old traininh spares, and Kouiros was running in Vlastiks Nimbus 8 (which already had 4+ days of running in them) and get some relieve for teh bones, and was running in them for many hours.

However Kouros was already very tired and had very tired muscles and also refusing eat properly was depleteing the muscles all the time. So in this situation the Nimbus was ideal choice as the muscles were nonfunctional speed of running was relatiovely slow and teh shoes were doing the job and protecting teh bones and joints.
Last day, when Kpuros needed some serious kms , he was of course running in racing flats to get his speed up and doing it in more correct biomechanics.


All this to me is showing few things - every runner needs to make a serious decision - what are the long term running plans

A. - to become fast runner, if You ever intend to run 10km under 40 minutes or marathon under 3 H, than You have to bite the bullet and strip down to minimalist shoes using only racing flats and do also lots of training in nearly barefoot state using 5fingers vibrams and other similar strategies (there are few topics on this) and start building this from scratch, from minimal distances and be very patient and work also on lots of crosstraining and strenght issues.

B. - to become slow runner, never have any speed goals and bve very satisfied by simply participating and covering teh distance, not willing to do any extra activities like crosstrain and strenght train, and operhaps aiming at the goals like running slow marathon each weekend (4-5 hours) and so let teh shoes do the job and do not use muscles too much)
You can aim than at some long ultras where running slow is honourable, however never having chance at a ultra podium finishes , just completing the stuff. In this case the asics Nimbus are exellent choice, however You are locking Yourself into plan B. forever, it is a 1 way street and later if YOyu wanna change to plan A. You wopuld have to strat from scracth.

And, 1 point- Vlastik has a long term back problem, sometimes cant sleep dutring his long iltra adventures- in my personal opinion this is a result of the wrong running biomechanics, where the shoes are doing teh absorbtion, saving the knees and hips etc but seems to be not able to do it for spine and the core-upper back muscles seems to be not comfortable with cushioned technology.

I do not see any middle ground it is either the racing flats or Nimbus (locco seems to have near equivalent).
all that vast majority of other shoe types are just not giving anything - they do not give the speed and they do not give the
the potential of running long kms day in and day out.

Just the way I see it

[Olmy]

Wow, I don't know whether to be sad or insulted that I can never have any running goals because I don't run in flats. I had hoped that I could run close to a 2hr half, but I guess I need to throw that dream out the window now.

[Rudolf]

Olmy, on Apr 26 2008, 10:59 AM, said:

Wow, I don't know whether to be sad or insulted that I can never have any running goals because I don't run in flats. I had hoped that I could run close to a 2hr half, but I guess I need to throw that dream out the window now.

common, 2H halfs are no big deal, You can do it in any shoes.

But if You plan on going well under 1:30 in half, thats different story

[Rachel49]

Colsy, I've never been to a pod and run in Nimbus and love them. Tried stability shoes as they were recommended by Athlete's Foot for all the wrong reasons (because I have a high arch not because I pronate). Nothing else seems comfortable, maybe for the reasons 2P mentions. To me they are snug as around my feet and the heel doesn't seem to sit as high as other neutral shoes I've tried. Maybe it's what I'm used to and not the best for me, but I haven't had any injury troubles although I have never run more than 21km. I'm too scared to spend the money on something else in case I'm not happy with it. Until something doesn't seem right I think I'll stick with them or until I have a high disposable income and can afford to have three or four pairs of shoes going at any one time

[SouthAustralian]

Colsy, I reckon that you did the right thing, you've embarked on a new sport, in the interest of foot maintenance you saw a professional and got advice, all good so far.
Even the conversation here has been excellent, but I reckon where youre now at the stage where you need to think instinctively.
Youre a sharp bloke, go with your gut feeling.
You've got all the advice you need, you can now make a considered decision.
Personally if it was me I might consider that all the advice that has been given supports the fact that youre probably in the right shoes....but at least you've looked into it and taken professional advice.
Think instinctively and natural.
Cheers
Frank

Edited by SouthAustralian, 26 April 2008 - 05:58 PM.

[cakeboy]

Colsy wasn't having problems but you took him to see your Pod, Frank....my question is: what was your finders fee?

Wake up and smell the coffee, Colsy.....

Seriously, I'm a fan of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach. One day your Nimbus's may no longer cutting the mustard, Colsy, but until they do, don't break up a beautiful relationship!

How should I know? Because I am now running in, and having feet trouble in, Brooks trance, after letting some schmick sales guy talk me out of buying Asics that have never given me a problem in 10 years.....

[blkbox]

My "rouge" pair of runner were Brooks Trance - they were the 6's I think, very stiff and very uncomfortable to run in. Much happier with the Mizuno range.

[Colsy]

This is one of the best threads I have ever had the pleasure to participate in.
OK, so what I have done is purchased a pair of last seasons model Saucony Omni 6. From Converse at Harbour Town for $70!
So I have a nice comfortable supportive shoe for $70.
If it doesnt work out I go back to my Nimbus and use the Saucony for walking, without bashing myself for laying out huge funds for shoes I dont need.

And Rudolph, I must disagree with you. There is middle ground. About 50% of CRs are in it.

Edited by colsy, 27 April 2008 - 12:31 PM.

[Rudolf]

colsy, on Apr 27 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

And Rudolph, I must disagree with you. There is middle ground. About 50% of CRs are in it.

meaning they cant run fast and they cant run long, but they are wearing high tech motion (speed) control high heels.


By the way it is not my theory, read Gordon Piri ebook is free from his webstite

[NeilW]

cakeboy, on Apr 26 2008, 09:56 PM, said:

How should I know? Because I am now running in, and having feet trouble in, Brooks trance, after letting some schmick sales guy talk me out of buying Asics that have never given me a problem in 10 years.....

Active Feet sold me a pair of Brooks Trance. I'm not sure I like them. They seem to have the correct amount of support, but they feel too narrow. After running in them for about 3 weeks, I started to get pain on the top of my right foot. Not during a run, but afterwards. Its not so bad now, but there is still some discomfort there, especially if I put a pair of shoes on after Ive been for a run. Dont know if its the shoes or something else.

[wombatoutofhell]

NeilW, on Apr 28 2008, 07:48 AM, said:

Active Feet sold me a pair of Brooks Trance. I'm not sure I like them. They seem to have the correct amount of support, but they feel too narrow. After running in them for about 3 weeks, I started to get pain on the top of my right foot. Not during a run, but afterwards. Its not so bad now, but there is still some discomfort there, especially if I put a pair of shoes on after Ive been for a run. Dont know if its the shoes or something else.

interesting-I bought some brooks trance from them as well and also have a pain in the top of my right foot. The shoes took a little breaking in when I got them which possibly means they weren't perfect but feel fine now. The pain came in on the second long run I did in them on Good Friday and hasn't really gone since. It feels like a bruise but there's no mark. Before I got my orthotics I never bought the trance as they weren't comfortable but they were recomended by both AF and my pod along with others. Next time I think I'll try the others! Although the trance is working for me now

[NeilW]

wombatoutofhell, on Apr 28 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

It feels like a bruise but there's no mark.

Yep, thats what it feels like. Sometimes it feels like I've done my right shoe up too tight, even though I know I havent. The frustrating thing is, they feel OK when I'm running.

I always ice my feet after a run, so hopefully that is helping keep whatever it is at bay.

[Bellthorpe]

I don't know about this model, but most modern running shoes have a plethora of extra holes and lacing options.

Have either of you experimented such that laces do not cross the area of pain?

[NeilW]

Bellthorpe, on Apr 28 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

I don't know about this model, but most modern running shoes have a plethora of extra holes and lacing options.

Have either of you experimented such that laces do not cross the area of pain?

Yes, I've also done this to my work shoes. It seems to have helped, as the discomfort is not as bad now. Hopefully, it will disapper in time. I may well be blaming the runners for an injury they havent caused, as I dont feel it when i'm running.

[Frysie]

I would never ditch my Nimbus.

I have run in my nimbus for 2 yrs. I have completed 3 marathons, a six foot track marathon, and more then half dozen half marathons. I have done all this in 1 pair of nimbus asics.

They are great in the absorbing the shock and i have a mild pronate, but let me tell you guys this i rolled my ankle in the 6 foot marathon at the 13 km mark, i slowed to a jog for about a km, crossed the cox river (waist deep) then finished the the next 30 odd km's with no major probs....

My ankle did swell after the marathon when i took my shoe off, but after the swelling went down, i was out running again a week later (and i put it down to running in a great shock absorbing shoe).

Plus you can run fast in Nimbus i have done many sub 85 min half marathons (just train harder to go faster)

[blkbox]

Bellthorpe, on Apr 28 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

Have either of you experimented such that laces do not cross the area of pain?

Have a look here for options on lacing your shoes

[flyingdutchman]

Before you ditch your Nimbus, if they're size 12, and don't smell, I'll have them.

I was running in Brooks for a few years, tried Reebok Premiers (Stability) and bought a pair of Nimbus because they were cheap. I think there was a new model about to come out, and they are the most comfortable shoes I have ever run in.

Have never been to a Pod, but have never had much foot pain, other than overdoing some runs. I would think the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" rule applies here.

If they're comfy, then stay with them. If you start having pain, whether it's from increased mileage or anything else, then look around and seek professional advice.

[SouthAustralian]

flyingdutchman, on Apr 29 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

Before you ditch your Nimbus, if they're size 12, and don't smell, I'll have them.

I was running in Brooks for a few years, tried Reebok Premiers (Stability) and bought a pair of Nimbus because they were cheap. I think there was a new model about to come out, and they are the most comfortable shoes I have ever run in.

Have never been to a Pod, but have never had much foot pain, other than overdoing some runs. I would think the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" rule applies here.

If they're comfy, then stay with them. If you start having pain, whether it's from increased mileage or anything else, then look around and seek professional advice.

I know Colsy fairly well....believe me you don't want his shoes...Sorry Coles...but the truth needs to be told....
Frank

[SportsFeet]

hi

Mate dont ditch your nimbus even though they are ranked as a neutral cushion shoe, they are suitable for a mild pronator.
Even though they dont have medial posting as such, the middle portion of the midsole is quite stiff. Try twisting the shoe in the middle and see for yourself.

Some pods get get very concerned if runners are not in what they consider stability shoes!

Good luck

regards

Pete

[Colsy]

SportsFeet, on May 1 2008, 08:07 PM, said:

hi

Mate dont ditch your nimbus even though they are ranked as a neutral cushion shoe, they are suitable for a mild pronator.
Even though they dont have medial posting as such, the middle portion of the midsole is quite stiff. Try twisting the shoe in the middle and see for yourself.

Some pods get get very concerned if runners are not in what they consider stability shoes!

Good luck

regards

Pete

Thanks for that Pete and welcome to CR.
You are quite right. I have purchased a cheap pair of Saucony Omni 6 (support shoe) and I must say there is very little difference between the two.