20 replies to this topic

[Jogger]

Most people well know my position on race number swaps without approval by the race organisers (ie don't like it all) and this has been the default CR position for many years and any sniff of a race swap/sale gets deleted asap.

However I think that SMH is taking CR/me to be a patsy as we do all the hard yards (deleting threads, having to justify SMH's piss poor attitude) and they do diddly squat about their issue.

If the race can't be bothered to offer up even a simple system then why should we try to police their system for them ?

So - what do the bulk of our readers want ? Maybe its just me that has my knickers in a knot ? Maybe the CR position should reflect the views of all readers (not just mine) ? Maybe if CR does nothing about all the "for sale" numbers then they might get off their arses and do something? If we "do nothing" is that morally tenable position ? Can we get into trouble ?

Refer the latest offer here

[Bellthorpe]

For my money, CR should do nothing.  It should leave these posts alone.

[Jimboy]

Kev,SMH are a lazy bunch of race organisers.It is easy to set up a transfer system on their web site to assist runners in this situation.
I have done this kind of swap many times in overseas races.The numbers involved would be miniscule,they are just a lazy mob who don't give a stuff for the runners as long as they have got their entry fee.
If there are no legal issues involved,let them look after their own monitoring.

[Olmy]

I agree. Do nothing. If push ever came to shove (more than just nasty letters), then do something, but until then do nothing.

[Tom31]

Just keep on deleting the threads.  We all know the rules.  By even raising this issue you are taking a stance which any relevant race organiser could use against you.  But I'm a lawyer so I'm bound to say this.

[emjay]

here is the ebay policy on ticket sales - basically it is up to the user to ensure they are not breaking any laws.

[Don Juan]

Kevin, over the years you've already gone beyond the call of duty in helping out the race organisers.

I wouldn't enforce a rule SMH don't enforce for their own employees [too lazy to search for relevant thread], unless SMH need to place some lucrative advertising with Coolrunning then I'd defer to Wobbly Man the treasurer.  

Enjoyed Tom's legal advice, reminded me of a quote about put 10 lawyers in a room and get 10 opinions.

[Phoenix]

In any community, the community  determines the standards of that community.

CR is a moderated community, a moderated web presence.  It (the administrators) would be liable/negligent if they knew that illegal content had been posted, and taken no steps to pull it down.

One defensible position is a 'hear no evil, see no evil' stance.  But once you know it's there you have to do something about it.

The next question is - is the content actually illegal, or simply immoral?  

If morality/ethics are the question, then the community tetermines those.

[thomo]

How about SMH people actually posting on site rather then sending Kevin T. emails/pm's that they have done in the past/present (I can only guess the present). Seems like a Teacher/ student relationship rather than peer to peer.

Wayne Larden, of Sydney Running Festival (Marathon,etc) http://www.sydneyrunningfestival.org/
answered hard questions online. We have other R.D's who post regularly and who respond to questions or issues that arise from their events also.

If SMH don't like something posted or it is wrong, they can post their position.

Give it a go SMH, don't just lurk.

[blkbox]

Tom31, on Apr 29 2008, 02:48 PM, said:

Just keep on deleting the threads.  We all know the rules.  By even raising this issue you are taking a stance which any relevant race organiser could use against you.  But I'm a lawyer so I'm bound to say this.

Be careful accepting this advice Kev, you will probably get a bill for the time it took to type  

Sorry Tom31 couldn't resist the temptation  

[FakePlasticTrees]

Didn't ebay win a case last year about a similar thing? I think the Big Day Out or some music festival sued them for breaching the resale rules of the ticket. Trading post and other similar things would constantly be selling advertisement selling stolen equipment, the onus is not on them to verify the legality of the sale. Isn't it all buyer beware?

I'm kind of glad you delete the threads as they would add a lot of unwanted noise to the site, however smh's sit back and do nothing except issue take down emails is annoying habit.

SMH FIX YOUR BLOODY ENTRY SYSTEM. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR IT FOR YEARS.

Quote

The issue of buying and selling entries is not a simple one and requires a reasoned debate at a later date

This was written by Michael Russell over a year ago. Has the later date been yet?

[rachinaus]

Phoenix, on Apr 29 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

In any community, the community  determines the standards of that community.

CR is a moderated community, a moderated web presence.  It (the administrators) would be liable/negligent if they knew that illegal content had been posted, and taken no steps to pull it down.

One defensible position is a 'hear no evil, see no evil' stance.  But once you know it's there you have to do something about it.

The next question is - is the content actually illegal, or simply immoral?  

If morality/ethics are the question, then the community tetermines those.

I would have to agree with Phoenix on this - it is fair to solicit the views of the majority of the community and then reflect them (though of course this could pose a separate debate on whether longevity or degree of involvement as a community member gives some one a greater say in any community standpoint ) . That aside however, this is about the community's stance on this issue not whether it is policed effectively or otherwise by SMH.

If the community doesn't care then don't police it, if it does then what Kev does is what everyone wants.

Rach

Dang I'm going to do it in 2!!!!

[Bellthorpe]

Phoenix, on Apr 29 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

CR is a moderated community, a moderated web presence.  It (the administrators) would be liable/negligent if they knew that illegal content had been posted, and taken no steps to pull it down.

What is it about a post that breaches a race organiser's rules that is illegal?

[Colin]

There are no rules broken by posting threads offering your place.

Any person running in someone else's number jeopardises his/her status with that race in future... its a contract between the entitled owner of the number and SMH etc.

It is not our job to be policing a policy of SMH that is clearly out of touch with what the running community wants. This is  a simple issue that will please runners. Other events even advertise to runners that if injured they shouldconsider those that missed out due to the cut-off. SMH's cut-off does not appear to have anything to do with numbers that turn up on the day, just with numbers of entries sold, so it is in their business model interest to make this a scarce resource.They would not care if 200 pitched up on the day, so long as they sold 4,000 entries to the suckers.

When they start organising runs for and by runners then I will respect them.

Disclaimer:

I am a race director of a much smaller event we we treat everyone as runners and not a number.

[Phoenix]

Bellthorpe, on Apr 29 2008, 08:29 PM, said:

What is it about a post that breaches a race organiser's rules that is illegal?

Bellthorpe - I was speaking more generally about guidelines governing web/digital content.  A web post can be illegal on a number of levels, depending on what is contained within that post.  It could be defamatory, sexually explicit etc.   It could also contain within it instructions pertaining to illegal activity - e.g. selling alcohol to under 18s or some such.

Not saying that selling race numbers is illegal (I don't know if it is or isn't) but if it were an illegal activity, and CR had knowledge that it was happening, then CR would be liable.  If on-selling race numbers is not illegal, then we're sweet!

[HillsAths1]

Yes it is great to have a run in the city and all that, however, the event is a State Championship and it is the only State event in NSW that does not guarantee a registered NSW athlete a place in the race.
If the organisers are not willing to address the problem of entries and wishes to take on CR. Then let it happen(Tom I hope your rates are not too high, perhaps some Pro Bono work may be required). I am sure that the SMH Half without all of the CR runners and supporters may reach the required number of entrants, but I think the overall standard may be very low, and would make a great story in the Telegraph!

[Action]

Can we give SMH moderator rights on a single thread, then any offers to sell/buy could be placed there and it would then be up to SMH to moderate its own rules?    

Perhaps just publishing the email trail between SMH & Kev at the top of the thread and as many have said, draw attention to it, but in the end, let the buyer beware?

I can't see it being illegal outside of the SMH sphere of influence, as the only penalty is excommunication from future SMH events.  Therefore shouldn't it be policed only within the SMH sphere of inflence, not here on CR?  

I wonder if Wayne Larden has put a proposal on the table to take over the championship component of the half?  No entry limits there, although it may clash with the marathon champs.

[Greg]

emjay, on Apr 29 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

here is the ebay policy on ticket sales - basically it is up to the user to ensure they are not breaking any laws.

LAWS??? what laws?

Conditions of entry, maybe. But is anyone breaking the law by offering to sell/swap entry, no i don't think so.

We all undertand the position of the race organisers. You have made it clear what the official line is. that should be enough.

Fer crying out loud people, use a code, reply by PM's, be smart if you want to swap - but don't go crying to the organisers if you get hurt if you're not officially entered.

Subjects such as "ANYONE GOT AN SMH HALF ENTRY TO SWAP" isn't really smart is it... Oh and by the way, the cheapest online place in the US selling Asics, Brooks and Nikes online is letsruinitforeveryone.com  

[Colin]

Action, on Apr 30 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

I wonder if Wayne Larden has put a proposal on the table to take over the championship component of the half?  No entry limits there, although it may clash with the marathon champs.

Some other crowd may have put their hands up    ... some finer details to work out. Will be on a different course to their usual stuff.

As they say... there are no limits.

[Beki]

Greg, on Apr 30 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

Oh and by the way, the cheapest online place in the US selling Asics, Brooks and Nikes online is letsruinitforeveryone.com

Too funny  

I just can't get over the number of times people are told not to post about swapping or selling race entries and yet people keep doing it.  I don't see why CR or Kev should be held responsibile for stupidity

[CoolRunning Admin]

well I have resorted to my default position of deleting all offers to buy and sell race numbers. I may email the person but I may not as I don't have a lot of time. They are coming thru thick and fast now....

DO NOT OFFER TO BUY OR SELL NUMBERS.

Gestapo Kevin
Administrator until we get a new one - apply below.