838 replies to this topic

[undercover brother]

i'm in!!

[walshy2]

good luck Stay puff and I love your positive attitude. It is great that you have found other stuff to fill in the wholes!

[73Robbo]

I'm in too !!  Just finished my first mara - Great Ocean Rd so now planning to take time off to fix my achilles and ITB once and for all.

Got plans for a 9 week pool running programme someone pointed me to from CR, then mix in treadmill run/walk with pool running over a 10 week period.  

I'll see nearer the time but I may stay multisport after that for a few months until my base has built a little - there are some nice little 2-3 month sprint and OD tri schedules out there which may help everything rebuild while giving me a schedule to keep my mind busy.  Was hoping to come back to half-mara by the Singapore Standard Chartered in Dec but not planning to rush into it.

[ican]

Speedy recover Staypuff, thinking of you!!

[PEEKIE]

Awesome Staypuff It's hard work and great as you see yourself progress each week with increases over all sessions. After you've done the five different sessions of the first week I'd love to know which one you found the hardest and which you enjoyed the most.

[brizza]

hi staypuff,try this,when you do your pool running move your legs as if you are riding a huge bike,at the top of the stroke have your feet flat as if parallel to the bottom,as your foot goes forwardpoint your toe down to the bottom and then pull back really hard go back as far as you can,bend your knee and bring your heel up to your behind and go again,if your hammies are not working REALLY hard and you are not breathless then GO HARDER-good luck -briz

[PEEKIE]

Favourite session of the week was Friday's pyramid sets, hardest session I found was Tuesday with the 2:30 intervals, the extra minute trying to keep up the intensity was really hard, the 1:30 interval sessions I enjoyed a lot more. Staypuff when you have done a few more sessions try to go without the flotation belt for part of the session, it's really challenging, then build up the time spent without the use of the belt.

[wobbly man]

staypuff, on May 27 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

but i'll sink rofl

Perhaps you could use Cato as a secondary flotation device?

[Cato]

staypuff, on May 27 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

but i'll sink rofl

Well if you stopped talking so much you would be able to float

Good luck with the recovery.

Cato

[Cato]

wobbly man, on May 27 2008, 09:02 AM, said:

Perhaps you could use Cato as a secondary flotation device?

OK we all know that "fat floats"

Cato

[Colin]

Just a question on the prevalence of ITB.

Can those afflicted post their training regimes prior to getting this, length of time since staring to run etc etc.
It is quite possible that the enemy of ITB is mileage, in particular too much too soon... or is it more diverse than that?

cheers

[bruyere]

I should be joining this group.

Ran my 7th marathon yesterday and, well, here's an excerpt from my race report:

Quote

.... While I knew that 3:40 was out of the question and 3:45 was a distant hope, I did think that 3:50 was within the realm of the possible.

And it was. For the first 25km, I was within that realm. Then the dreaded ITB issues came back. I'd thought I had it beaten. I changed my routine to stop and stretch after each water station. I took my first unplanned walk break (ie not at a water station) after the 30K mark. And from then on, it was just bad. I walked the hill before and on the bridge, in the hope of saving my leg a bit.

By 37K, I was running until I physically couldn't anymore because my knee was starting to buckle. Then I'd walk until I felt I could run again. Then I'd repeat the cycle. Each change of pace brought a buckling of the knee for a few steps (and some bad words muttered). However, when I WAS running, I was going at a good pace, and passing people.

I crossed the finish line at 4:04 something, well off my PB. I had dug deep and run the last 750M nonstop, just staring ahead, and trying to ignore the pain. But I DID run it nonstop, and passed a ton of people while doing it. Then I crossed, almost fell down, and they helped me into the medical area for ice and massage.

I've 2 appointments with  my new RMT this week, and I'm buying a foam roller. I would aim for regular appointments, but I'm leaving for Australia on June 6, so maybe just one more before I go.

I've no real recovery plan yet. I will rest a bit, get my massages, and use the roller for the next two weeks and hope for the best for the half in Perth June 15th.

In the 2 months before the marathon, I'd done 2 half marathons and 3 runs of 25K+ (25, 27, and 30 -- I've always been a low-mileage marathoner) with no trouble. I've had ITB problems twice before, once in 2005, and during my one of my fall marathons in 2006. Interestingly, I started doing yoga classes in 2005 and it went away. I stopped the classes a couple of months ago because my instructor left. I still practice a bit at home, but I'm convinced that more would help again, so I think I'll get on that.

Edited by bruyere, 27 May 2008 - 12:34 PM.

[kylieno]

Hi All,

I need to be in this group. I've got ITB problems in my right leg and runner's knee in my left. I visit my physio every fortnight and I am getting orthotics on Saturday, (ITB is sending me broke!). I am training for the Gold Coast half in 6 weeks and my long runs of late have been 50 laps of an athletics oval in alternating directions.

Any advice is appreciated.

Cheers,

Kylie

[kylieno]

Thanks Staypuff, I have been thinking about water running, if I want to make it to the Gold Coast 1/2, it might be the way. If you guys southern guys can water run in May, I shouldn't be such a wuss.

To respond to Colin's post, I have been running just on 2 years now. The Qld Half Marathon on Sunday, will be my first 1/2 (hopefully). Until this year, my longest distance was 12 kms, and I was running approximately 3 times a week, with 10 or 12km's being my long run on the weekend, the other runs being about 6km each. My ITB flared up when the distance of my long runs increased to 15kms.

Cheers,

Kylie

[73Robbo]

I'd been running for 10 months and given a couple of achilles problems earlier it was almost certainly mileage in my case.  I looked through my running log and I'd jumped 30-40% some weeks (easily done by adding 1 extra run as I was only at 20-30km per week).  Shoes have always been properly fitted.  In short - no consistent base.
It's brought me close to financial ruin but the Singapore Sports Medicine industry is doing really well.

I picked it up 6 weeks before the Great Ocean Rd Marathon - my first - made it in 4:42 for the 42.2 (nice numbers) and 5:06 for the 45km despite my poor last 6 weeks.  
Having worked hard to fix it (rest, ice, Aleve, current, ultrasound, NSAID injections, stretching) before the mara and averaged 5km per week for the last 5 weeks or so I know it's going to take some time.  I've no plans to run a race again before December.  I can still feel twinges when walking 1wk+ after the run.

To come : pool running, run/walk, multisport, sports massage (which I've never done) as well as accupuncture which some have had success with on both achilles and ITB.

No more : Calling it quits on ultrasound, current, patt strap and NSAID injections - expensive and/or no noticable improvement for me

Edited by 73Robbo, 27 May 2008 - 11:03 PM.

[wombatoutofhell]

 staypuff, on May 29 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

I really want to do melb maraton but have already decided that if its a no go then i will spend the rest of the year working on my form building a good bas and maybe getting a bit faster. I would like to drop a few more kgs and get a lot stronger so there are other things to work on that are probabaly more important than one particular race

I think Cato is going to go sub 1:45 in Melbourne-and get hugs from more than just 1 woman-with the fitness he'll have by then 9 or 10 women should be easy enough for him to deal with.  You should be there to keep him out of trouble!

[73Robbo]

Got my first ever sports massage in an hour.  Am scared

[wombatoutofhell]

 73Robbo, on May 29 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

Got my first ever sports massage in an hour.  Am scared

I dont blame you-I've never had one because I'm too chicken!

[73Robbo]

 wombatoutofhell, on May 29 2008, 07:25 PM, said:

I dont blame you-I've never had one because I'm too chicken!

I'd have been even more scared had I known beforehand that she represented Singpaore at the SEA Games... in JUDO !

Moments of mild agony but generally felt happy enough to book another one next week.

Definitely starting pool running on Monday... no really, I am...  

[Cato]

 wombatoutofhell, on May 29 2008, 09:03 AM, said:

I think Cato is going to go sub 1:45 in Melbourne-and get hugs from more than just 1 woman-with the fitness he'll have by then 9 or 10 women should be easy enough for him to deal with.  You should be there to keep him out of trouble!

Mate, if I ever went sub 1:45 at any Half Marathon I would hug "everyone"!

Cato

[rena]

Hi,

I have just started training for the Sydney half marathon in september and as i increased my runs my ITB has also flared up. I have researched into it a fair bit and found a particular exercise that is meant to help stretch it.. its called the Walt Reynolds ITB Special.. has anyone heard of this or tried it and knows that it helps?? Id do anything to start running again!

[undercover brother]

 rena, on May 30 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

.. its called the Walt Reynolds ITB Special.. has anyone heard of this or tried it and knows that it helps?? Id do anything to start running again!

google is your friend! here is a link.
it says it aims to 'strengthen the itb' not sure about that but it will certainly strenghten the attached TFL muscle.
i have used it off and on and not convinced either way.
whippet man swears by it.
my physio doesnt like it.

Edited by undercover brother, 30 May 2008 - 10:56 AM.

[73Robbo]

 rena, on May 30 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

Hi,

I have just started training for the Sydney half marathon in september and as i increased my runs my ITB has also flared up. I have researched into it a fair bit and found a particular exercise that is meant to help stretch it.. its called the Walt Reynolds ITB Special.. has anyone heard of this or tried it and knows that it helps?? Id do anything to start running again!

It does seem to be a bit more functional but I'm sticking with glut medius strengtheners as my main focus (side-lying "clam" exercises with a strong yoga strap for resistance).

Here's an interesting observation for you - may be OT but you be the judge.
When I used to do my achilles heel drops and when I do my soleus (bent leg) stretches I note I get to a point with my right knee where I can't maintain the knee over the 1st & second toes and instead the knee takes an inward path to complete the full range of stretch.  Not so with the ITBS affected left... until I spotted it this morning (only since the marathon a week+ ago).  There feels to be a definite pull to an inside line.
Is this related to ITB or something else?  Physio didn't have an answer for me when I was discussing the right side a few weeks ago.

EDIT : since found stuff on symptoms of an overactive TFL (which ties in with my ITB trouble) - knee tracking during squats is one of them...could this be what I'm seeing?

My legs are rubbish.

Edited by 73Robbo, 31 May 2008 - 10:13 AM.

[Colsy]

I think this thread is fantastic. I hope that if I ever get into a situation where I cant run I will try and fill the time with stuff that will benefit me when I get back on the road.

More power to you guys...go nuts!!

[73Robbo]

 staypuff, on May 30 2008, 07:25 PM, said:

so whats your exercise

Not sure if that was to me staypuff but I'm on a roll so here's my feedback...
the clam I mentioned is the exercise... described below adm here http://www.sportsinj...teus-medius.htm the article is called "Weak Buttocks Ruin the Runner"

"both hips are flexed to 30 degrees with knees bent and hips and feet stacked in line. The athlete has to open their knees while keeping heels together, and most importantly, holding the pelvis completely still. I palpate the gluteus medius for activation. If the pelvis moves despite education on positioning, it means the athlete is unable to isolate the muscle and is trying to recruit ‘cheating’ muscles such as TFL."

Importance of medius...
"The gluteus medius should be considered in every running injury. So many athletes with running overuse injuries of the lower limb present with poor gluteus medius function that I have come to the view that the strength and function of this muscle is probably the most important active component in the achievement of a biomechanically efficient running technique. This is not so surprising when you consider that during running you are always either completely in the air or dynamically balanced on one leg. All sports injury practitioners should, I believe, be able to assess and retrain gluteus medius function...It is the major abductor of the thigh. The anterior fibres rotate the hip internally and the posterior fibres rotate externally.
During closed kinetic chain actions, such as the stance phase of running, the normal role of gluteus medius as a mover muscle is reversed, causing it to act as a pelvic stabiliser. So, for instance, during right stance phase, the muscle contracts to slow the downward motion of the left side of the pelvis so that the pelvis doesn’t tilt more than seven to eight degrees from parallel to the ground. If the gluteus medius is not functioning well enough to achieve this control, the athlete is said to have a ‘Trendelenburg gait’. Often, but not always, you may see the same weakness in walking (producing a waddling motion or, in extremis, a limp), and the dysfunction will then be more marked when they run."
"...As a result the athlete is at increased risk of any condition relating to excessive and/or prolonged pronation of the foot, such as medial tibial stress syndrome or Achilles tendinitis."

This latter comment was of particular interest to me as it implies a linkage between all 4 of my injuries in the last 10 months (outside of the generic "too much too soon" which is indeed another likely one for me).  I've had 3 bouts of achilles trouble and the ITB all of which have been linked (and unlinked !!!) with glut med in reports.  Given the simplicity of the exercise, I figure I may as well get it strengthened anyway.

I also note following a good search just now that overactive TFL can cause the knee to drift inwards (or outwards bizarrely) during squats, an overactive TFL is often related to weakened medius and that in turn has been linked to ITBS and as above, the achilles/pronation issues.  So in my simple engineers mind, I've got a good root cause possibility waiting to be eliminated.

Another nice article from the same resource...  http://www.sportsinj...d-friction.html

Anyone educated in the dark arts of physiotherapy and rehab out there?

Edited by 73Robbo, 31 May 2008 - 12:17 AM.

[Mango]

 staypuff, on May 31 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

he's always telling me i have a weak arse and need to do my butt exercises

Honestly Staypuff, take my advice. It has taken me 3 years to learn this lesson but i now have - finally. Do your exercises. You may get the inflammation down and be able to run again but you will never get rid of the problem - it will keep recurring - until you strengthen that butt of yours.

Edit: opps. This is Jen_runs

Edited by Mango, 31 May 2008 - 07:30 PM.

[wombatoutofhell]

I've run behind staypuff on a couple of occasions and often thought she needed to tighten her butt up.  Not that I was paying attention-was just admiring her running form and happened to notice.  A few times.

[mandaG]

Well I give up.  I've been on the bench for a year almost to the date (I got ITBS a few weeks out from GC last year), I've done physio, massage, ice, stretching, and a year almost on drugs.  I've just finished 6 weeks total rest and injection program, including orthotics and extensive glut/hip strenghening exercise, and a slow ramp up.  Yesterday at the 25 min mark my knee jammed up so badly I couldn't walk down stairs.

I am absolutely heart broken and have this dread in my stomach that I will never be able to run again.

I have just no idea what to do next (and watching the girls I ran the GC with last year do it again this year is going to hurt more than my knee.

Has anyone ever recovered I wonder?

[SpartaJen]

 mandaG, on May 31 2008, 11:08 PM, said:

Well I give up.  I've been on the bench for a year almost to the date (I got ITBS a few weeks out from GC last year), I've done physio, massage, ice, stretching, and a year almost on drugs.  I've just finished 6 weeks total rest and injection program, including orthotics and extensive glut/hip strenghening exercise, and a slow ramp up.  Yesterday at the 25 min mark my knee jammed up so badly I couldn't walk down stairs.

I am absolutely heart broken and have this dread in my stomach that I will never be able to run again.

I have just no idea what to do next (and watching the girls I ran the GC with last year do it again this year is going to hurt more than my knee.

Has anyone ever recovered I wonder?

There is a surgical option. I know nothing about it but I do know of at least one person who has had it & it was successful for her.

[undercover brother]

 Jen_runs, on Jun 1 2008, 06:45 PM, said:

There is a surgical option. I know nothing about it but I do know of at least one person who has had it & it was successful for her.

they can cut a bit of the itb out +- bursa.
was also reading something about a 'z-plasty'/lengthening procedure the other day too?!?
looking at getting an opinion on this myself if/when i flare up next time.
mandaG - whippet man spent most of a difficult 2 years on the sidelines (including operation) a while back.
went on to finish 3 x 100 milers last year plus coast to kosci and is hoping to be the 3rd aussie to finish hardrock in 6 weeks time.
things will get better.
pleased to hear about the swim/run staypuff.
i'm getting injected again tomorrow and will do 'nothing' (no running) for another 3 weeks until a short test run.

Edited by undercover brother, 01 June 2008 - 10:01 PM.