162 replies to this topic

[Ron1]

FPT said "when somebody criticises an elite somebody always says something like 'when you can run like them then you can comment on it'.'"  Saying "something like " is different to claiming that it was actually said.   Even then you are reallly just stating your opinion of what was said or meant.   Putting your own spin on it.

Colin attributed words to a contributor who never actually said the words.  You cannot put words inside quotaton marks and attribute them to a person unless the person said it.  That is 101 stuff.  It has little to do with grammar but a lot to do with playing fair and not misrepresenting the other person's opinion or argument.

Why did I ask you (FPT)? I guess it was just comment on your comment.  Very vigilant digging up quotes when it suits your position.  

I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that a poster should meet any particular criteria before posting.   All the misrepresentations through improper paraphrasing only lead to confusion and unfair rhetorical questions.    

Bye.

Edited by littleaussie, 25 August 2008 - 09:42 AM.

[Colin]

Posting just to get someone off my back and correct my "improper paraphrasing". My bad

These are the quotes I appear to have made up:

"Lets have a debate without "you need to have experienced this", "you lack the expertise" or "you were only right for the wrong reason" etc"

.... And this is what was actually said (amongst others):

"...but the comments of yourself and the detractors demonstrate a lack of insight into that level of running."

"...I do know a bit about 5k running. I ask about the 5k credentials of the critics ..."

"Have any of you ever run heats of a 5k? What about a fast enough 5k to be on the same lap as Mottram (even last night)?"

"I'm not trying to denigrate you by bringing up 5k experience, merely that it could be some of the reason for your negative assessment ...."

"..I think Colin's pre-race assessment was based on his (misguided) assumption that his poor race in Osaka was due to poor tactics..."

Hope that satisfies you.

The bottom line is that I made a speculation of what tactics may be employed by Bekele et al, and that anyone who wanted to be in final had to adapt to or change the race. The tactics eventuated and those that did not adapt to it or change the tactics missed out.

The latter is just an assessment and not a criticism.

What is a criticism (whether people like it or not) is that Mottram was ignorant of the non-auto time and he was dismissive of the quality of the others in race (thought he would beat them anyway...didn't know at least one runner in better shape than him)...now call that arrogant and ignorant or anything else...he didn't make the final.

However, what clearly eventuated, and we can have a look at the race video a thousand times- it did- (and his coach agrees as quoted in Friday's SMH)- is being lost in arguments about grammar, whether beating '2 other' runners (than Lagat and Bekele) is the same as being in top 4 , whether you have the same experience to offer an assesment or whether you were right for wrong reasons (i.e. guesswork).

Notwithstanding all that, if you look the papers, the race video etc those that weren't good enough or didn't adapt or change the tactics  employed by others were not in the final.

Its one thing differring on something, but lets stick to the original disagreement without blurring the edges...and... lets say the same here as what we do 'offline' , rather than have a disagreement just because its great fun .....no, I won't paraphrase this time, but happy to quote


cheers

[DrJH]

Colin, I agree with most of what you said in your last post. In my original post (where I questioned the credentials of the critics) I probably could have asked if they were friends/family/coach or someone in the know as well. These are other ways the posters could have offered more informed criticism. There was a lot of negative stuff said about Mottram which may well be deserved, but I don't think any of us here has the inside knowledge to know that.

It's pretty obvious the tactic was wrong, but maybe knowing the background to the tactic would have generated less negativity. I don't think we should assume (and post) 'arrogance' until we know for sure.

I may have been somewhat 'devil's advocate' in my approach, but I think posters should be open minded to other possibilities before they are too critical.

[Ron1]

DrJH:  Ditto.

Colin:  Thanks for your response.  We still disagree in relation to certain aspects of Buster's heat race and I guess on how best to analyse the racer's performance.  The margin for error at that level is virtually non-existent -nay it is non-existent - so let's not be too hard on Buster.  

Some of the posters above just can't seem to get that sometimes you can do everything right, or to the best of your abilty, and still have a negative outcome.  These are the ones who are the most ruthless and whose criticism is not at all constructive.  I think it understandable that Buster chose to race as he did.

I think it best when someone fails, regardless of level, to not focus so much on the negatives but move on and concentrate on finding positives.  By all means discuss, but we all know what he should've done, as I am sure CM does, and I think it is negative and somewhat deflating to dwell on a person's race misfortune.  In my opinion Buster was simply outraced on the day.

I do think that hacks like us need to really open our mind to the extreme pressure and competition at Mottram's level before making negative comments about his abilities.    

Thanks again Colin for presenting the quotes correctly.   Sorry for getting on your back about that.   Very sporting response by you.  All except your dig about people "having disagreement just because its great fun".    Not sure what that was about.  Not the case for myself.

Our original disagreement stands.  

Cheers.

Edited by littleaussie, 25 August 2008 - 04:25 PM.

[Ian Hamilton]

 littleaussie, on Aug 24 2008, 06:33 PM, said:

Very vigilant digging up quotes when it suits your position.

I'm no politician but doesn't everyone when it suits their position?

Poor old FPT he can't win, being admonished for quoting when paraphrasing and admonished for vigilantly quoting , unless it was a compliment ?

Edited by Ian Hamilton, 25 August 2008 - 07:32 PM.

[wombatface]

 littleaussie, on Aug 25 2008, 04:06 PM, said:

Some of the posters above just can't seem to get that sometimes you can do everything right, or to the best of your abilty, and still have a negative outcome.

Like Sarah Jamieson in the 1500m semi-final - ran the perfect race, yet missed the final by 0.04 seconds. Just not her day.

[FakePlasticTrees]

It wasn't even actually "my position" (slightly adapted quote for first v's third person) I was just correcting something somebody had said about talking in hindsight. They weren't even my quotes, I don't think Colin needs me to speak for him he does that enough for himself  

[Ian Hamilton]

Littleaussie:
"Some of the posters above just can't seem to get that sometimes you can do everything right, or to the best of your abilty, and still have a negative outcome."

Wombatface:
"Like Sarah Jamieson in the 1500m semi-final - ran the perfect race, yet missed the final by 0.04 seconds. Just not her day."

That's correct, tactically she did everything right but just wasn't good enough on the day. But, hasn't virtually the whole tone of this thread, since the heat anyway, been that Craig didn't run the perfect race, do everything right and achieve the best possible outcome for himself?  I notice even Jamie now concedes this, DRJH: "It's pretty obvious the tactic was wrong", which he may have done all along but I didn't pick up on it.

Edited by Ian Hamilton, 26 August 2008 - 07:28 AM.

[FakePlasticTrees]

 Ian Hamilton, on Aug 26 2008, 06:58 AM, said:

That's correct, tactically she did everything right but just wasn't good enough on the day. But, hasn't virtually the whole tone of this thread, since the heat anyway, been that Craig didn't run the perfect race, do everything right and achieve the best possible outcome for himself?  I notice even Jamie now concedes this, DRJH: "It's pretty obvious the tactic was wrong", which he may have done all along but I didn't pick up on it.

Craig in his post race interview said he didn't know what time he needed to finish in to get the small q qualifier. When he heard it was 13:42 he said something like had he known he would have just run 13:37.

[Spud]

The Olympics were so last week, let's move on peoples  

[Ian Hamilton]

 Spud, on Aug 25 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

The Olympics were so last week, let's move on peoples  

Let's have a vote on it.

[Ian Hamilton]

 Spud, on Aug 25 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

The Olympics were so last week, let's move on peoples  

Just came across this on the net from the Irish Times:

"perhaps we were just trying to distract ourselves from what happened to Alistair Cragg.

Of all the depressing ways to end your Olympics, a DNF - as in Did Not Finish - next to your name is the most painful and crippling. That it happened on the last day of track in Beijing with the last real Irish hope and to a man who had encountered such emotion in getting there was the ultimate blow.

As Sonia O'Sullivan's father once reminded us after a similar disappointment, no one had died; it's just that it sort of felt that way. It wasn't just a turning point for Irish running; it was a low point."

So it's not unique to us and Australia.

Now I'm going to get a life and move on.

http://www.irishtime...9615122592.html

[Jimboy]

 lebusqp, on Aug 23 2008, 09:39 PM, said:

Watching the race, I assumed at 4k the kick down would bring Buster home in about 13.40-42 anyway.
If Buster was in 3.33/12.55 shape he would have finished in the top 4. He also would have run the last 600 fast enough to better 13.42. From where I was sitting it looked very much like the run of a guy who wasn't in 3.33/12.55 shape.
I think his tactics were not the problem as much as his form/fitness. Buster is a strong finisher, at his best in a longish kick down. When the Qatari runner charged I thought it would help Buster's chances. At his 05/06 best he would have been with them to the top of the straight. The 08 version just didn't have the legs. I assume he thought he was in the 05/06 form but actually wasn't OR he just had a bad day.

After all our CR analysis of his run,maybe lebusqp has nailed it.One can easily deceive oneself,both as an athlete or coach,as to state of fitness for racing.especiallyif one has not raced extensively for a while.
Training results may give indication but one does not truly find out till in the heat of battle.
Anyway it is history now,I am sure any lessons to be learned would have been for both athlete and coach.Let us all move on.