17 replies to this topic

[Duckfeet]

Greetings all.

Firstly, to introduce myself, I’m 33, male and live in Adelaide (don’t hold that against me..) . I’ve taken up running in the last 12 months or so after a long time playing Touch (18 years) as my agility and explosive speed is starting to decline (that’s all I had – zero actual skill) and injuries started to increase.

So – since joining a running group (Glenelg Runners) in february or so, everything had been going very well. I’m approaching 4:00mins per km for 8 km and really enjoying it.


I should also mention at this point that although I am relatively lucky structurally when it comes to running, the one big problem I have is awfully flat feet. A couple of years ago I went on a health kick and ran 8km, 5 days a week on top of A grade touch 6 days a week. Needless to say within 5 months I could barely walk (stress fractures in both legs. Dumbass.) This time around I bought decent shoes (Pegasus) and had some good orthotics made. In addition, I joined the running group and trained as instructed – increasing gradually and having no problems.

HOWEVER – about 6-7 weeks ago during a speed session I felt a twang in my left knee. It developed into considerable pain that occurs on the inside of my knee, near the kneecap and affects me mostly in the first 10 degrees or so of movement away from straight. I stopped running for a few weeks altogether and there also developed a localized area of slight tenderness on the right side of the patella tendon. (initially the physio thought it was irritated joint due to off centre tracking of the kneecap on the side of the bone).

Also, at the time of injury the physio has a look at my shoes and suggested they were within a few weeks of needing replacement – but not yet shot. (I had done approx 400km in them, and I weigh 82kg)

I took the opportunity to then by some new shoes and picked up some Nike Vomeros.

I’m now back running in my new vomeros (with my orthotics), but have been struggling with strange sensations (fatigue really) in my calves, shins etc. These shoes are much much softer than my Pegasus and I find I am really having to concentrate on every step. Tonight at the session I’ll be running in my old Pegasus which should make things a bit clearer.

I have a suspicion that these may have been the totally wrong choice for my stupid duckfeet.

Any advice regarding good shoe models for people with big flat feet and orthotics, or general running experiences from people with rubbish feet like mine?

Cheers

Sean

[Duffman]

Hi Sean, and welcome to Coolrunning!
From the information you have provided I think it is safe to say you are indeed in the wrong shoes. The Vomeros are one of only a few shoes designed specifically to promote pronation and provide little in the way of support. You will see this if you compress the medial/inside part of the midsole as it deforms with very little resistance. They are also designed with a curved last to fit people with a higher, more rigid arch.

I would recommend going to a specialty running store with your old shoes and orthotics and getting fitted properly. For the foot type you have described, a straight lasted, moderate stability shoe would be you best option but try a few on and seek advice from a knowledgable assistant.
It sounds like there is a high likelyhood the pain/fatigue you are experiencing is linked to your footwear so try the new shoes to start with, but if pain persists, see your podiatrist!

[Sneakerfreaker]

I do have flat and wide feet, especially around the midfoot area. Luckily, when I start walking they get better so I don't really need a very supportive shoes.

The best shoes I have so far is New Balance mr800mf. They don't look that good, I bought it just simply it's the most comfy I've ever tried.

However, if you're a heavy heel striker they might not be suitable for you. These are actually designed for a mid foot striker, so most of the cushioning is around the midfoot area.

In the end this just my opinion. It is better to speak to a pod or the expert on the local shoe shop

Good luck

[Duckfeet]

Thankyou for the input guys - much appreciated.

The podiatrist has given me some models he likes for feet such as mine.

• asics 2130
  
• brooks adrenalin
  
• adidas supernova control

Any thoughts on those models?

[sagara0510]

i've worn both the asics 2130 and the adidas snova ctrl but not the brooks adrenaline

i found both the asics and the adidas comfortable to wear but personally like the asics better. it seemed to have more support for my flat over-pronating feet.

best bet would be to try all 3 and see which one fits best for you

[Steve 'The Footman']

The Nike Pegasus and Volmero are both neutral shoes that do not resist pronation. Your Podiatrist may have wanted you in a neutral shoe expecting the orthotic to do all the work. The big difference between your old and new shoes is that the Volmero is much softer and easier to compress as Duffman says. A heavier hitter or pronator is going to be all over the place in them and this could be consistent as a cause of your symptoms.

I suggest ditching the new shoes for something firmer.

[loubee]

Duckfeet, on Aug 28 2008, 03:10 PM, said:

Thankyou for the input guys - much appreciated.

The podiatrist has given me some models he likes for feet such as mine.

• asics 2130
  
• brooks adrenalin
  
• adidas supernova control

Any thoughts on those models?

My husband has worn the Brooks and is now wearing the addidas supernova control and loves them. Much preferred to the ardrenalins.

Edited by loubee, 28 August 2008 - 06:58 PM.

[Duckfeet]

Steve'The Footman', on Aug 28 2008, 05:37 PM, said:

The Nike Pegasus and Volmero are both neutral shoes that do not resist pronation. Your Podiatrist may have wanted you in a neutral shoe expecting the orthotic to do all the work. The big difference between your old and new shoes is that the Volmero is much softer and easier to compress as Duffman says. A heavier hitter or pronator is going to be all over the place in them and this could be consistent as a cause of your symptoms.

I suggest ditching the new shoes for something firmer.

Interesting.

Steve, explain 'heavy hitter'? I assume it means someone who has a clumsy/heavy footstrike? (spot on in my case).

I bought these independently of my podiatrist, and following my wifes visit to him with her new Vomeros, I won't even be showing them to him. (he was less than impressed with our choice......)

It appears that I have a nice new set of trainers for the garden.

Thanks for the input people.

Sean

[Cato]

Duckfeet

I am a pronator and have had orthotics for around 4 years now.
I am also a heavy hitter which puts quite a bit of pressure on my hip joints.
I have special soft moulded shock absorbent orthotics which I use in place of the insole.
I use Brooks Trance because they give lots of support.

Cato

[Sneakerfreaker]

Duckfeet, on Aug 28 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

Thankyou for the input guys - much appreciated.

The podiatrist has given me some models he likes for feet such as mine.

• asics 2130
  
• brooks adrenalin
  
• adidas supernova control

Any thoughts on those models?

I've got 2130, they're just Ok. the midfoot area still not wide enough for my feet. That's why only use them for my easy running.

I tried supernova sequence, which I think it's a newer model of the control and they feel even worse.

Running science also recommend me adrenalin, but haven't got a chance to try them on. Somehow decided to settle with the NB 800MF.

Brooks dyad fit me fine, but the toe box is too roomy for my taste and they feel so much bulkier and higher than the NB.

[Lost Boy]

Hi mate.
I am a little confused. The title of the post says that you're a pronator but in the text you say that you're structurally sound with flat feet.
I am unsure as to whether you are an over-pronator with flat feat or have a neutral gait with flat feet.
If the former is the case I won't bother commenting because everyone else has done so admirably. If the latter then you could possibly consider the brooks dyad which are, according to brooks, made for "biomechanically efficient runners who just happen to have flat feet".
Dyads seem to be one of those shoes out there made for freaks like me who seem to not fit the mould. I have perfectly normal arches which would suggest that I am probably a neutral runner but I tend to over-pronate quite a bit as far as I can tell so it is hard for me to find the ideal shoe. If you are in the latter catregory of having flat feet but a neutral gait there is not much out there for you. If you have flat feet and overpronate there is heaps on the market just like the other guys have said. If you are looking for a supportive shoe I have worn quite a few versions of kayano and have tried trance also. Both are good, current kayanos are more controlling and rigid bit fairly well cushoined, trances are less controlling and more flexible but are horrendously ugly and rubbish for wide feet.
Note that this is just based upon my own experience, things may be different for you or indeed I may just be wrong.

Best of luck finding the right shoe mate.

[Duckfeet]

Tony - It is highly unlikely that you are confused.

Highly likely is that I do not fully understand myself and have given a garbled description.......

From what you say I think I don't really understand the difference between the two cases you mention.

My understanding is that I have flat feet which causes everthing to collapse inward - which I'd think is the first case you describe? yes?

Anyway - thanks to all for the input - I'm now armed with better information when I go shopping.

Excellent!

Sean

Edited by Duckfeet, 30 August 2008 - 01:43 PM.

[Lost Boy]

Hi again mate.
Flat feet and overpronation are separate problems. There is a correlation between the two such that people with flat feet are generally overpronators and people with normal/high arches are generally neutral or supinators. This, as I understand it, is not always the case though. For example, I have normal arches and yet I am an over-pronator. There are some folks who have flat feet but have a neutral gait rather than an over-pronation problem. I understand that you have flat feet but I was unsure as to whether you have an over-pronation problem or not.
If indeed you are an overpronator and have flat feet then you are basically spoiled for choice as this seems to be the most common type of shoe on the market. Like you and everyone else have already said there are shoes like kayano and 2130 from asics or trance and adrenaline from brooks. If you are a severe over-pronator and have flat feet brooks also make the beast which is a massivley controlling chunk of a shoe and the dyad which is made for folks with flat feet but who do not overpronate.
Once again, best of luck.

[Running Angel]

Duckfeet, on Aug 28 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

Thankyou for the input guys - much appreciated.

The podiatrist has given me some models he likes for feet such as mine.

• asics 2130
  
• brooks adrenalin
  
• adidas supernova control

Any thoughts on those models?

Hi Duckfeet
I also have extremely flat feet and went to a pod about a year ago as I was suffering from shin splints. He gave me orthotics and recommended I change shoes to Brooks Adrenalines. I have found them extremely comfortable with the orthotics, I can definitely recommend them.

[wombatoutofhell]

Hi Duckfeet-welcome to coolrunning.
I also need a support shoe with my orthotics. I used to have the previous model Brooks Adrenalines which I loved. I replaced them with Brooks Trance which were ok but not really suited to me. I now run in Nike Structure Triax 11 which are easily the best shoe for my feet that I have had. If you liked the Pegasus, give the Triax a go as they are similar (from what I've read) but have more support.
We can all say what shoe suits us who have similar feet to you but at the end of the day you're the one who has to live with them. Try as many shoes as you need to and make sure you're happy with your choice. If you pick something that's not on your pods list you may want to run it past him before you buy. If you want the best advice go to a specialist running shop.
Good Luck!

[moondust]

I'm another severe over-pronator (with prescription orthoses) and heavy hitter. I'm happiest in Asics Evolution, but Brooks Addiction are also very good for my particular problems. The Asics also cleared up a niggling achilles, which on its own is sufficient reason for my devotion.

Best of luck.

md

[cRJrun]

OK here's my two cents worth...
Ran in Nimbus, everything A OK, then something gets into my head about changing over to Nike Voomero, after all a neutral shoe is a neutral shoe right???
NO not right, everytime I try and change things or fix things that aint broke all hell breaks loose on my body parts...well legs and feet anyway....!
This thread alerted me to the fact that Voomeros were causing my sore calves, heels, archilles , just to name a few spots....I was in denial at first but have just been for a 14km run in my old nimbus plus new orthotics and no pain in any of those parts of my body......Yes it's a miracle, the other miracle is being able to buy Nimbus 10's at $189 in Melbourne, even cheaper at the moment than OS. So, I'm one very happy runner right now....Who will hopefully continue to run happily ever after in her NIMBUS and orthotics.......YAY!!!!! RJ

[bellabean]

cRJrun, on Sep 1 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

OK here's my two cents worth...
Ran in Nimbus, everything A OK, then something gets into my head about changing over to Nike Voomero, after all a neutral shoe is a neutral shoe right???
NO not right, everytime I try and change things or fix things that aint broke all hell breaks loose on my body parts...well legs and feet anyway....!
This thread alerted me to the fact that Voomeros were causing my sore calves, heels, archilles , just to name a few spots....I was in denial at first but have just been for a 14km run in my old nimbus plus new orthotics and no pain in any of those parts of my body......Yes it's a miracle, the other miracle is being able to buy Nimbus 10's at $189 in Melbourne, even cheaper at the moment than OS. So, I'm one very happy runner right now....Who will hopefully continue to run happily ever after in her NIMBUS and orthotics.......YAY!!!!! RJ

Hi, I also have experience very similar problems, I have custom orthotics for severe over pronation which caused shin splints. My pod recommended Adrenaline which I have run in with no further problems, even during my half in May! However, in a rash moment in a running store I got talked into Vomero's. Went for a 14 km run and woke that night with agonising shin pain. Went back to pod with my Vomero's and he was astounded I had been recommended them. He likened them to running on marshmallows, my feet were rolling and sliding all over the place. Luckily I called the running shop and got them to take the Vomero's back and so now am running in 2 pairs of Adrenalines with no further injuries developing. I must say though my shin pain was so bad it's taking a while to heal, I don't think it will improve until I rest up after the Melbourne Half!

So the outcome of my experience is 'if it aint fixed, don't try and mend it'. In other words stick to what works well and don't get tempted by flashy looking new runners like me!