20 replies to this topic

[charlieboy]

A guy I know who is a very good runner (much better than me) stated the other day that 5x1k intervals with a 2 minute rest is NOT helping improve my lactate threshold at all. He stated that it is all V02 training.

Is this guy right?

Isn't training at or above your lactate threshold going to improve it?

What is a good lactate training session?

Isn't V02 mostly determined by genetics and a 20% improvement may be all you can get through training? Dont better results come from improving your lactate threshold rather than V02 max?

[Andolate]

Hi charlieboy,

I am a beginner runner but repeating what I just read in advanced marathoning-

An example ot L/threshold is a 15-20 minute warm up followed by at least 20 minutes at a sustained pace which is at 15K race pace for slowerrunners and half marathon pace for faster runners, followed by a warm down of 2-4klms.

I wont write anymore charlieboy beacuse I would be venturing into the stuff I dont fully understand!!


Andolate

Edited by Andolate, 15 January 2009 - 07:43 AM.

[Ewoksta]

Hi CB,

I am just starting a program that is all based on low HR stuff. By doing most of your runs/training sessions at low HR you will actually increase your lactate threshold.

Have a look at this link:

http://www.aeromaxte...aining-talk.php

Its the Aerobic Endurance Training part that talks about it.

Cheers
Andrew

[southy]

Actually Charlie Boy, I think your 1km repeats are much better at improving your lactate threshhold than his tempo runs. keep doing them.
I find 1km repeats one of the best ways to get myself race ready. But, if I do them every week I end up with a nagging sense of fatique. Ideally, I would do them every second week and in between do maybe 400m repeats.

[glenda]

Mix it up...do 1 session of fast reps and 1 session of tempo each week, with easy day/s in between and you will see improvement. A tempo session is not that hard that you can't recover quickly.

[Peterhorse]

Depends how fast you run the 1k repeats of course but perhaps their point is more about the length of the recovery. 2mins will enable your blood lactate level to return right down whereas a short recovery of say 30-45secs would keep it up higher.
Ask them what they think of that as a better lactate threshold session. (Makes it more like a tempo run of course).

A really good VO2 max session is 10-12mins absolutely flat out (e.g. a 3k time trial). You are supposed to get as close as possible to your maximum HR, which means virtually collapsing on the finish line of the session. I don't many who do their 1k repeats like that (hunched over feel stuffed for sure, but not max HR). You might do 1 of them, but you'd be luck to be able to 5 of like.

Science and definitions aside - a mix of 75% aerobic/easier running with 20% intervals/speed and 5% flat out in the weekly program does the job.

cheers

PH

[Ozchick]

Peter is right, it all depends on how fast you run the 1km as that will determine whether you are working in the lactic acid phase. Definitely a shorter rest period would be more beneficial.

[CantPaceIt]

southy, on Jan 15 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

I find 1km repeats one of the best ways to get myself race ready. But, if I do them every week I end up with a nagging sense of fatique. Ideally, I would do them every second week and in between do maybe 400m repeats.

I don't claim to understand all the science behind all the running terms but I've found the most success in running 3- 7 km at 10-30 seconds slower than 10km pace, with a 2km warmup and cooldown . I don't know what category to put them in, tempo, lactate threshold etc ?

The disadvantage of just doing intervals for speed/stamina work is that you have the rest period to look forward to, you might develop speed but you won't learn the pace you can maintain in a race and how it feels like. A longer tempo run teaches you how to learn the signs that you are pushing it too hard, it forces you to make minor adjustments in pace, breathing, posture etc thereby helping you to predict the kind of pace you will be able to maintain in a race. I think that kind of a run makes me more race ready than intervals.


CPI

Edited by CantPaceIt, 15 January 2009 - 11:48 AM.

[walker1st]

what a confusing concept, everybody has own understanding and explanations.

in my personal view, there is no such thing as a VO2max and certainly there is no genetic limitation to this, as there is no limitation at all.

There is only maximum speed You can run and sustain for specific time period and depending on running economy it will require specific amount of oxygen.

as You train smarter and harder and improve the running speed You will use more oxygen.

It is better to talk about amount of oxygen used at maximum sustainable speed that about VO2max.

as far as lactate treshold training - in my view the best training is the one which is slightly - just marginaly bellow the treshold pace, NOT above the treshold pace.

as the lactate treshold pace is the one which You can keep for 60 minutes, in my view the best session are the in 50-70 minutes in duration at 95-99 % effort, which sound pretty much as any session from Kenyan-Ethiopian training camp day in day out.

[southy]

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?A...9&PageNum=1

I'm not saying tempo runs have no place. They certainly do. But I thnk you get more more bang for your buck out of intervals. Why not one set of intervals per week plus one tempo run ?

[CantPaceIt]

southy, on Jan 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?A...9&PageNum=1

I'm not saying tempo runs have no place. They certainly do. But I thnk you get more more bang for your buck out of intervals. Why not one set of intervals per week plus one tempo run ?

What would you do if you only had one day a week to do speed/stamina?

CPI

[glenda]

That would depend on what event you are training for I guess. If the 5 to 10km events go for the fast reps 400m 800m 1km. If the half or marathon more tempo like work., if you only have 1 day to devote to it.
I like to run well at all the distances from 3km up all year so I have a mix of speed , tempo and long easy stuff. Also keeps me from dying of boredom on those long runs, cos I look forward to them after the harder, faster runs.

[Peterhorse]

CantPaceIt, on Jan 15 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

What would you do if you only had one day a week to do speed/stamina?

CPI

those who believe in training phases might say....
- more than 4-6 weeks to race day, do stamina? (tempos etc)
- less than 4-6 weeks do all out speed? (intervals)

those who believe in all year 'round same weekly structure...dunno, alternate weeks of each?

or blend the two and do 2-3 x 2-4k cruise intervals?

i think it's a case of the "everyone's different" and stick with your own winning formula if you're happy with it. if not experiment and get a new formula.

[Campbell]

Different kinds of training sessions are defined not to complicate or confuse you, but because each has an objective and purpose in a structured training program. And to ensure you benefit most from each session it's important to execute the session as it's intended. Doing otherwise won't be detrimental to your health and fitness, it's just that it won't be as optimal as it could be.

There seems to be confusion about the difference (and reason) between VO2 max intervals and threshold (lactate) intervals. Here's some clarification - you'll find better explanation in Jack Daniels' book.

VO2 max intervals are intended to increase your VO2 max (of course!!), sometimes also referred to as speed endurance. This translates to meaning it improves the maximal capacity of your aerobic system (as distinct from your anaerobic system). This is approx over 3-5 mins. Thus VO2 max sessions involve reps of 3-5mins with approximately equal rest...which allows the body to recover enough to repeat the next rep at equal intensity. The key part is reaching the required intensity in order to stress your aerobic system...and the reps are not so long that you tire and drop out of this zone. Thus 3-5mins is the "sweet spot"...they are VERY hard intervals. If you do these correctly you'll probably only get through 20-25mins worth of VO2 max effort reps.

Threshold (lactate) intervals are intended to improve your endurance at lactate threshold, which basically translates to 5 to 10k race pace. Thus they are the most specific and beneficial reps for race preparation. They are done either as a sustained effort from 20-40mins at just below race pace...or as a series of efforts (of 6-10mins) just at/above race pace with short, float recovery (1-2mins). Thus the recovery is minimal, hence it is a sustained session rather than focused on each interval. In doing this session it's important not to go too hard (that changes the nature of the training effort) and not to rest for too long (that dilutes the sustained nature of the session).

Of course there's several other training protocols, and lots of variations in how to do the sessions.

So comment on the specific session Charlieboy describes...I'd say it's not really a VO2 max session (reps probably not hard enough, and rest is too short) or a lactate session (rest is too long). Not to say it isn't beneficial, just not as specific as it could be...depending on what phase you're at and what your goals / objectives are.

I hope this helps.

[Colin]

Before questioning, or answering, what training sessions for "Lactate Threshold" should be, an understanding of what 'lactic acid', 'lactate' (diferrent) and 'lactate threshold' are and what they do should be in order. everyone is arguing about their own definitions thereof, and therefore will have a different answer- not even the correct answer to their own definition in most cases.

All I will say is that 'lactate' is not your enemy, and even in (now) older text such as 'advanced marathoning' the definitions and meaning of the concept is outdated.

What you can answer- for yourself- is "what are the training sessions that give me the best improvement in race times"?- irrespective of what scientific concept is involved.

For me, my 'bread and butter' that got me from a 2:40 (mara)/35min(10km) to a sub 2:30 , 15min 5km runner were (weekly) 1) long run, 2) race effort (time trial/race) or tempo and my two speed sessions which were 3) 10 x 400 @ 62 (or 20 x 200 @28) with 90sec 400 recovery and 4) 5 x 1000 @ 3:00-3:05 with 4min 1km recovery- both of these had a 4km warm up and 4km warm down (basically to get to track).
I don't care whether it was VO2 max, LT or whatever acronym...I got faster-quickly.

btw re VO2max. The max O2 uptake has a limitation at cellular level beyond which training won't improve it (its not infinite) and individual dependant. The max/kg obviously is be affected by body weight, so therefore much training effect will be seen as a result of weight loss...which is the main reason a sedentary couch potato can have a 30% improvement by training.

Running economy on the other hand is the actual energy (or equiv O2) that you over a ceratin distance (we know Tadesse has a phenomenally low 150ml/kg/km). This can be improved over the speed you wish to run at i.e. you may be more economical at 5min/km than 4min/km as a result of your training, so training has an effect on actual VO2/km/kg used but not much on the maximum that can be used.
My belief (opinion/feeling etc etc) is that for a marathon this RE can (is) be influenced by race pace and race surface training.

cheers

[charlieboy]

Great replies everyone. Helps alot

Campbell I can see my friend gets his views straight out of your Jack Daniel book. Interesting. I have often been of the opinion our rest is not nearly enough.

Colin I hadn't realised what an accomplished runner you are. I can also see the benefit of just doing the session which produce results, not worrying too much about why.

Southy - Intervals are certainly very important and get great results.

Walker1st I appreciate your remarks and find them interesting however just as a tip whenever I read your posts I often find them condescending, making it sound like the persons opinion you are responding to has no validity. Sorry......... BTW surely there are limits to how much oxygen the body can absorbe, to burn the fuel to release the energy to help us run. The lungs are only a certain size, the blood can only produce so many red blood cells etc etc. Surely there are people who have a superior genetic makeup that allows them to absorbe more oxygen. Otherwise by your reasoning the only difference between my performances and Craig Motram's is the amount/type of training we both do.

[Peterhorse]

charlieboy, on Jan 15 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

....Colin I hadn't realised what an accomplished runner you are. I can also see the benefit of just doing the session which produce results, not worrying too much about why.

...surely there are limits to how much oxygen the body can absorbe, to burn the fuel to release the energy to help us run. The lungs are only a certain size, the blood can only produce so many red blood cells etc etc. Surely there are people who have a superior genetic makeup that allows them to absorbe more oxygen. Otherwise by your reasoning the only difference between my performances and Craig Motram's is the amount/type of training we both do.

uh oh, here comes the faked civilisation love your work Rudi

Seriously though, not only does Colin knows his Sh*t, and put it in practice and achieved a very high level but having been on here for years, he has been asked these sort of questions many times over and still provides detailed replies such as the above. We've all learned a lot from Colin, that's for sure. It's good to read credible info as well - all seems to come together and help the understanding after a while.

[walker1st]

charlieboy, on Jan 15 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

Walker1st I appreciate your remarks and find them interesting however just as a tip whenever I read your posts I often find them condescending, making it sound like the persons opinion you are responding to has no validity. Sorry......... BTW surely there are limits to how much oxygen the body can absorbe, to burn the fuel to release the energy to help us run. The lungs are only a certain size, the blood can only produce so many red blood cells etc etc. Surely there are people who have a superior genetic makeup that allows them to absorbe more oxygen. Otherwise by your reasoning the only difference between my performances and Craig Motram's is the amount/type of training we both do.

we all understand whatever we read very differently and we all decide what attitude we take.
there is nothing I can do about it.

and on the questions of limits - If You believe You have limits and limitations, than You are very right
whatever these limits are, whatever the details it is.
and yes science is great in suporting limitations concepts.

we all have the choice in our believe system.

why You are not running at the level Buster is ?

it is not only about training You do, but everything You have done since born every physical activity You were engaged in, every illnesses and other stuff You have been trough, every meal You had every drink You had, combinations of foods etc, every medication You have taken or not.

and it is also about ability to reverse whatever negative happened to the body in the past.

people who principaly dissagree with these concepts would find my post offensive, condescending and whatever else.

Those who are in tune with these concept join in happily in active suportive conversation - yep does not happen on this forum, but I do get lot of personal messages, emails and phone calls from those who are glad to read it, but do want to get into forum cultural controversy.

simply skip my posts or block me out completely, there are lots of those who do so.

[Ewen]

Colin, on Jan 15 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

What you can answer- for yourself- is "what are the training sessions that give me the best improvement in race times"?- irrespective of what scientific concept is involved.

Thanks Colin. This is one of the most profound pieces of advice I've ever read on CoolRunning.

Let's think about A FEW of the variables between two runners who race the SAME EVENT - say the 5000 metres:

Sex
Age
Running age (experience)
Basic speed
VO2max (can be improved, but varies from individual to individual)
Running economy (can be improved, but varies)
Ratio of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscle fibres
Body-type (front row forward or Wanjiru/Radcliffe clone)
Strength
Flexibility
Durability (susceptibility to injury)
Availability of time
Desire (is a race goal the most important thing in their lives)
Will-to-win (are they a Herb Elliott or a fun runner)
Job (12 hours/day picking fruit in the hot sun, "pro runner", or something between)
Facilities available (altitude, tracks, soft surfaces)
Competition
Coaching
Training partners
Climate

So, a difference in just one of these variables (muscle fibre type for instance), would mean the two runners would follow quite different training programs in order to achieve their best possible race time.

[Jason M]

Colin and Ewen said it best. Find what sessions give you personally improvement.

Science is a long way from having all the answers (I don't it ever will). So far the scientific community, coaches and athletes cannot agree on a definition for the anaerobic threshold. Then there is how should it be tested and how is it really related to race performance?

Just some names this threshold has been called include Onset of Blood Lactate Accumlation (OBLA), aerobic threshold, lactate threshold, anaerobic threshold, threshold 2, ventilatory threshold, Maximal steady state (MSS), Lactate turnpoint, Lactate 4.0mmol.

Since the basics of concept itself haven't or cannot be established, I believe there is a problem with any stating a certain method is more correct than another method.

For myself I work off the concept that the Threshold a spectrum (not a defined point) at where the production of anaerobic byproducts, including lactate can longer be effectively buffered by the bodies system and running above this pace will lead to premature fatigue. I find raising the running speed of this important for races of 10km to marathon. To enhance it I incorporate two key runs which are:
1. A long steady-state run for 60-90min at just below what feels like my threshold pace. (81-84%HRmax for me at the moment)
2. 2 intervals of 10-20min with 2-5min recovery at or a little above what feels like threshold pace (about 88%HRmax)
This appears to be working well for me at the moment. It also has in the past.

[southy]

here are a couple of interesting links to some info on lactate theshold training and VO2max type sessions. Things aren't as simple as people used to think.
http://www.runningplanet.com/training/lact...mp;logid=184391

http://www.runningplanet.com/training/vo2m...mp;logid=184391


I'm with Glenda. I like the mix, plus I like to race well over distances from 800m up to about 13k. I mix it up, do 2 interval sessions per week and 1 tempo session (or a race depending on the season). It is as Colin says "an experiment of one" of course, we are all different. The trick is to figure out what works for you.