34 replies to this topic

[Whippet gal]

I've been told that any speed work I do is designed to increase my leg speed (rotation). My query is, if I want to run even splits for a marathon (only talking marathon distance here because I know I need speed work for shorter distances) and I already have the desired leg speed (say 4min/k, which I've done for up to 25k in racing) is speed work necessary to allow me to be able to maintain that pace for the full 42k?

In other words, if a runner is capable of doing a certain pace but needs to be able to maintain that pace for longer, how much training should be done at a faster pace?

Any advice and experience greatly appreciated.

[Eagle]

I know what you all will say not Lydiard again ....

Speed work puts the icing on the preparation for the marathon. It will increase the speed you had at the end of the base building but only because you have engaged teh fast twitch muscles in these sessions and so will be wroking toward maximising the speed potential you have. That is you were born with a mix of slow and fast twtict muscles and the base building engages the slow twitch and increases capillaries etc. This can go on endlessly but with dimishing returns on the effort involved.

When the base building is complete you do some speed sessions to engage the fast twict muscles but as I said the best you can increase this to is directlty related to the muscle mix you were born with.

So by Lydiard the increase in endurance is endless but the increase in speed is limited. So to get faster you should work on your endurance and get it as highest as possible and then add on the limited speed work. The higher the endurance base level of fitness the faster you will be able to run. the marathon.

You asked :

In other words, if a runner is capable of doing a certain pace but needs to be able to maintain that pace for longer, how much training should be done at a faster pace?

The answer cannot be specific in sessions but what ever combination of sessions you do they should be aimed as recruiting the fast twitch muscles and attempting to work them to their capacity. That should only take 2/3 sessions a week for 3/4 weeks at most. After that you will plateau or even loose fitness if you push on because of the build up of lactic acid in the muscles over time.

Whie the sessions are individual they could be say 4/5 x 800's and then 4/5 x 1000 and maybe 3/4 x 1200 (this could be week 1 & 2) as aneorobic. Then move to some endurance anerobic like 2/3 x 2000, 3 x 3000 and 3 x 5000 (this could be weeks 3 & 4. Week 3 & 4 is a tough set of sessions but will set you up well for the marathon. All of these should have full recoveries between them.

There should be 2 weeks of sharpening (the focus on short sharp work that just reaches the AT) and a taper week and then the marathon.

Edited by Eagle, 27 January 2009 - 03:49 PM.

[Nate]

WOW a thread I can relate to.

I was contemplating this same question last year and decided that I would just run my normal runs a little faster than usual rather than incorporate specific speed work. For example an easy 1hr temp run might get me 12k, whereas a harder run might get 13-14k. I ran the Perth Marathon smack bang in the middle of a training block for a 24hr race which meant no taper no recovery week. Aiming for 3:15, my splits were 1:35.23 and 1:35.31 for a time of 3:10.54.

This is just my experience, but it seems that if you already have the leg speed then you need to work on endurance in order to hold that speed for longer. I am continuing using this method of training slightly faster instead of specific speedwork and last week ran a 50k PB on a training run with a hydration pack on in the middle of a 151k week without pushing too hard! How? I managed to keep a consistent pace throughout without slowing. I can only attribute this to the quicker training runs and my body learning to hold the faster pace for longer.

Hope this helps. Would be interested to hear some other thoughts on the issue.

Nate

[Eagle]

Nate, on Jan 27 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

....

This is just my experience, but it seems that if you already have the leg speed then you need to work on endurance in order to hold that speed for longer. .......

Yes that is the short version of what I am saying. In a marathon it is all about holding a certain pace for the whole event and that will be based on endurance work but speed sessions cannot be over looked just to get as WG says the leg speed up but I think that is the simple way of saying engaging teh fast twitch muscles that have not been brought into play in the base building sessions.

I wonder Nate if an even quicker time was there for the taking with a bit of speed work and a short taper? But certainly very good results can be achieved by what you did and even splits off course helps a great deal.

[glenda]

If you find the secret to maintain 4min ks for the marathon let me know.

[Whippet gal]

Eagle, on Jan 27 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

I know what you all will say not Lydiard again ....

Lydiard was a genius. Thanks for the advice Eagle.

glenda, on Jan 27 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

If you find the secret to maintain 4min ks for the marathon let me know.

Glenda - you're closer to discovering that secret than I am!!!

[Jason M]

What is meant by speed work?

I'm guessing by the way question is structured, it means anything faster than race pace. Which covers a lot when talking about the marathon. Standing out are paces at arund the so-called anaerobic threshold, 10,000m and 5000m paces (VO2max) work, anaerobic tolerance type sessions (1500-800m type pace), pure speed sprints over very short distances.

Each has specific effects.

My personal take on added faster work for marathon training (after a good aerobic/endurance base is established) is as follows (it is what I will following this year).

Build up a longer steady-state run of 45-75min at the top predicted marathon pace plus a little bit faster. Progress to threshold style intervals of 2-3x20min to raise and improve speeds of the threshold (ie. get faster before accumulating lactic acid). Then to add a little icing on the cake do about 3 weeks which include VO2max type intervals (6x1000m to 4x2000m) at 10km or a bit faster.

On top of all this I will include weekly speed/technique drills. These are short, non-recovery-taxing type work, but do seem to make a big difference to my top end speed, and help with my active range of motion.

What I don't think is of much value is an anaerobic capacity or lactate tolerance type sessions. One that include 800-1500m paces over 100-800m and repeated developing that intense burn and leaving you wasted for a couple of days.

However, by far the most important element for the marathon is maintaining and enhancing your aerobic and muscular-skeletal endurance. Long runs must continue, and I would definitely include a progressively longer run at predicted marathon pace over the build up. I completely agree with Eagle's point (taken from Lydiard) that the potential for endurance development is endless, but there is a limit on speed development. If anything I would err on the side of more endurance orientated work and maybe under-do the faster stuff.

[Eagle]

Jason M, on Jan 28 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

Snip ...
However, by far the most important element for the marathon is maintaining and enhancing your aerobic and muscular-skeletal endurance. Long runs must continue, and I would definitely include a progressively longer run at predicted marathon pace over the build up. I completely agree with Eagle's point (taken from Lydiard) that the potential for endurance development is endless, but there is a limit on speed development. If anything I would err on the side of more endurance orientated work and maybe under-do the faster stuff.

Jason a good read and I agree with you and in particulat the very short stuff at a vert fast pace is not needed for marathon training. You last sentence gets to the very core of what decisions to make when there is 9/10 weeks out from the marathon - opt fora littel more high quality endurance and sacrifice some speed sessions.

[walker1st]

Jason M, on Jan 28 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

Build up a longer steady-state run of 45-75min at the top predicted marathon pace plus a little bit faster.

Progress to threshold style intervals of 2-3x20min to raise and improve speeds of the threshold (ie. get faster before accumulating lactic acid).

Jason, I have the timing Q :
how many days or weeks before the maratahon You will do the last session of each of the above types ?

[Colin]

Nate, on Jan 27 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

This is just my experience, but it seems that if you already have the leg speed then you need to work on endurance in order to hold that speed for longer.

Not quite how I read Eagle's response.

Ray...you talk of Lydiard doing the speedwork (icing) after base building ...and btw endurance improvement cannot be infinite....this here is speedwork first improving the basic speed you have, and then by virtue of that your medium runs, longer runs etc are all at a better pace, because you have improved your comfort zone.

This is the way Fordyce trained to win 9 comrades' (8 consecutive) and set Comrades and world 50mile records on the way.
After Comrades he decreased his mileage, entered track races, did shorter races etc, got his 10km eventually down to 29min and marathon down to 2:17...then only increased his mileage (max 165km/wk in second last month) in months 5 to 1 (race month is 0). Average for six months post race was 120 and five months pre about 135km/wk.

In this way, he reasoned, that now that he had the speed improvement, his longer runs were done at a better pace and more of it at goal race pace...but not up to race distance. From memory no more than 65km (for a 87km race) and no actual racing over 40km in 5 months prior.

Another important factor for marathon pace holding is improvement of economy -and here you can say "not race pace training again"?......but that is what is important for holding pace in marathon...run a lot of race pace, and this is made possible, or easier, if you already have increased you top speed threshold.

cheers

[Eagle]

Colin, on Jan 28 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

Not quite how I read Eagle's response.

Ray...you talk of Lydiard doing the speedwork (icing) after base building ...and btw endurance improvement cannot be infinite....this here is speedwork first improving the basic speed you have, and then by virtue of that your medium runs, longer runs etc are all at a better pace, because you have improved your comfort zone.


cheers

I think the ability to adopt is infinite but after a while the the effort is very high and the increase is so low it is not worth the effort. However that is not the issue here and it is not worth debating.

When we talk about speed sessions they are just another session added tot he weeks training but as you say or imply you continue longs runs etc and the speed session should allow you to run these at a faster pace. So while I say it is te icing on the cake (that should not be considered to imply that it is not essential). Speed sessions are a necessary part of a well balanced program but at the right time in the program and without the session you overall pace will not improve past that established atthe end of the base building stage.

[glenda]

Spot on what I have found. My long runs are probably 15 to 20 seconds faster perkm, now than I was doing before I started trying to get serious about my marathons. But is still fairly comfy because with the benefit of speed work I can hold faster paces. My mid week medium long run is even faster. I have started now (about 8 weeks out from my marathon) to throw in a longer , 6 or 8 or so km tempo to one of my easier days. I do it on my own because it requires more discipline and I set a goal pace of 3.45 or 4 mins perkm after a warm up and try to run exactly that on a measured bike path. Whippet gal, you obviously have very good endurance . I jus think you need a couple of harder sessions every now and then. or substitute a shorter race. ( a hard 10km)

[Bull]

Good question Whippet Gal! I'm far an expert and my credentials are minimal, but I'll throw my 20 cents worth in anyway.

Like yourself & Glenda, I can also relate to the 4:00 km's marathon ambition. Really good responses from Jason & Eagle.

My coach's (Barry Magee) exact words - "It is OK to have a flexible programme as long as the principles get adhered to. It is never a matter of just distance or speed . It is a lovely combination of both and being able to adjust efforts to suit." Barry was coached by Lydiard and won marathon bronze in the Rome Olympics, 1960.

I'm a believer that everybody is different and over time you can experiment with different approaches and tailor whatever works best for you. The common denominator with every advanced marathon training programme that I've ever read is that they all seem to follow or adapt Lydiard principles in one way or another, and speed work always has a role.

There are 4 phases to Lydiard marathon training schedules and speedwork has it's place in each one:

1) Base Building / Conditioning - Mainly endurance runs (1.5 hours to 2.5/3.0 hours), but still includes some lighter speedwork. (i) A weekly steady state run of 45 minutes to 1 hour (ii) A 75 minute fartlek session;
2) Hills & endurance - 2 or more hill interval sessions weekly and might include a fartlek session or shorter time trial (3/5 km's) within a 70/75 minute run.
3) Speed & endurance - Progressively longer time trials each week as you get nearer to the actual marathon. 5/10/20/25 km's, culminating in a 30/35 km time trial say 4 weeks out from the marathon. These aren't designed to be all out efforts and should be done at around 85-95% effort. Some interval training might be included but for marathon preparations is usually minimal.
4) Peak & Taper - Ease back on the miles but speedwork and intensity is maintained.

For what it's worth, things that I've been doing include:

1. Relatively high mileage:
10 - 12 hours per week (140 - 160 km's). I usually run every day, sometimes twice.

2. Fast Finish Long Runs:
This is a variation to the traditional Lydiard approach, but I really like doing these from time to time, especially closer to the marathon. They combine both endurance & speed. The Kenyans and many modern day coaches seem to advocate this type of run.

3. Weekly long run of 35 km's or more:
I think most peope would agree that the marathon starts getting tough at about 32 km's. It's the next 10 km's where maintaining or picking up the pace requires more than just digging deep. For this reason, I usually like to run 35 km's or more on my weekly long run. My marathon PB is 2:52 and I'd love to get this down to 2:48 or better. So it makes sense to me to get used to being on my feet for around 2:50 or more on a regular basis (usually every second week for me). I have run the full distance in training a couple of times and have found it to be beneficial.

4. Hard day / Easy day principle.

5. Every run has a purpose:
I train within an appropriate pace band width each time. The McMillan Running Calculator is a brilliant training tool for developing training pace guidelines. I don't always follow it 100% rigidly but do so pretty much most of the time. I do like to ensure that recovery jogs are really easy. If this means going slower than recommended, then I do so. After 2 years of running now, I've also learnt that my heart rate varies significantly depending on the conditions (terrain, weather etc). Hot days really slow me down heaps and I believe it is important to adjust your pace to suit. In my case this might be as much as 10-20 seconds per km. I wear a HRM every day and generally train to effort and not speed.

Happy to pass on any other knowledge taught to me along the way or you could ask Barry. His email address is barry@upandrunning.co.nz

I don't contribute much to Coolrunning, but read it most days and find it to be a wonderful resource. I found my coach here, the McMillan Running Calculator here and have picked up numerous tips along the way. Hopefully along with yourself, Glenda and those others who have such ambitions, we can all break that 4:00 / km barrier for the marathon one day.

Best of luck.

Bull

[Peterhorse]

no matter how many times it's asked, i love this question and the discussion it generates, even with the different situations each person has.

the great condundrum ... (my/lots of us) speed at 10k is faster than my expected 21.1k and even more so my marathon time. actually my 1 and 3k speed predicts much faster times at the longer distances (predicts 3:21 mara, and i'm a 3:36 PBl).

so what do i do?

- more mileage to build the base, then speed at the end?
- more mileage to build the base, with speed all the time?
- more appropriate sessions, including the huff & puff stuff but keep the same mileage?
- run all sessions harder including longer runs, endurance and speed?

or will each of them work in some way or another?

i guess it really depends on the person and what they have already tried?? i'm sure my average of 51k/wk in 2006, 54k/wk for 2007, and 48k/wk (2months off with injury), even with peaks of 70-80k in the lead up phase is 20-30% short of what it needs to be.

with a busy life trying to balance a young family, work, travel, investments, hobbies, etc, points 3 or 4 tend to be my approach despite thinking more miles would work better.

One of Lydiard's lectures attached for interest of readers. I'd love to try a "proper Lyliard approach" with 100-140k's a week but my likely mileage is going to be waaaay too short.... it think???

If it contibutes to asnwering whippet gal's question i'd be interested in the response to this... if not, sorry for an unintended hijack, let me know and i'll just think about it all some more

cheers

PH

Attached Files

•  al_lecture.pdf   623.73K   17 downloads

[youngrunner]

I feel a bit in adequate giving advice when there are those with the low 3hr/sub 3hr times commenting but here is what worked for me in getting my marathon PB:

- Long run on weekend including 5 runs over 30km around race pace +30-50secs/km
- Once weekly midweek long tempo run of up to 24km which was done -20-30secs/km faster than race pace
- Twice weekly shorter runs ~10km, lower heart rate runs, one as active recovery another as steady run, again at race pace +20-50 secs/km
- once weekly cross training (netball session) which also worked as a speed session

hope thats some help

Jimmy

[Eagle]

Peterhorse, on Jan 28 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

One of Lydiard's lectures attached for interest of readers. I'd love to try a "proper Lyliard approach" with 100-140k's a week

PH

Not a hijak just continuing the discussion. I think your choice 1 is the traditional/original Lydiard approach.

I have followed the Lydiard approach for a while but never fully - usually just the base building and then seem to go of on a wonder in the last stages. However in December last year I decided that for Canberra I would the full Lydiard preparation including speed work hills etc. So at the moment I am still in the base building phase.

However as Bull say some speed work during in all phases is fines so I have been doing two runs on a Friday - 16/18k at about 5 pace and then 10k hard in the afternoon getting down to 4.15 pace. I found that overa number of weeks thattime came down from 4.45 with the effort for the faster one being no different to the hard push at about 48 minutes for the 10k.

Now my goal time for the perfect marathon is 4.15 pace so I am not in te same league as Bull, Gelnda and WG but am still enjoying the challenge and the hope of getting very close to 3 in April. Hopefully Arthur's methods will get me there.

[Jason M]

walker1st, on Jan 28 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

Jason, I have the timing Q :
how many days or weeks before the maratahon You will do the last session of each of the above types ?

I'll have to answer this using general guidelines, as the exact for each person for each training cycle will depend on current strength/weaknesses and how they adapt to the training.

Between 16-10 weeks out I would perform a weekly 45-75min steady-state run.

Then progress to 3-4 weeks of the threshold intervals (eg. 2x20min)

If at this stage I find the paces of my long run or MAF HR are slowing then I will revert back to the steady-state runs and will not include the VO2 intervals, otherwise I will take about 4 weeks that include a weekly VO2 interval session plus a progressively longer marathon pace run of anywhere from 60-120min (depending on the individual) each week.

Then it is time to taper which could be as much as 4 weeks or as little as 7-10 days. For myself I tend to respond best with a taper of 10-14 days. The clear focus of the taper is about rest and recovery. Yes there will be some faster running, but at a very easily managed volume. Most runs will be at or just above marathon pace.

[walker1st]

thanks Jason, in trying to navigate with calendar through Your answer, it seems to me, that if You happy with test, You could keep doing both VO2max as weel as long tempo-pace runs in the week mara-3 - 3 weeks out, so basicaly You would be left with 14 days only, is that correct ?

[southy]

I am not a marathoner but IMHO 'ease of speed' is important, even to a marathoner. In order to be able to maintain 4m per k for 42 kms then 4min per k must feel very easy early on.
Therefore the more 'speed reserve' you have the better. No, you don't have to be able to do a 54 sec 400m but you must be able to do at least 3:30 or so , comfortably for 1km before you can hope to be able to run 4min kms for 42k. I suppose some people would call it running effeciency here.

[Jason M]

walker1st, on Jan 29 2009, 08:35 AM, said:

thanks Jason, in trying to navigate with calendar through Your answer, it seems to me, that if You happy with test, You could keep doing both VO2max as weel as long tempo-pace runs in the week mara-3 - 3 weeks out, so basicaly You would be left with 14 days only, is that correct ?

Correct.

However, things can vary a bit depending on how I am absorbing the training. I may simply increase the pace of my long run slightly and just do the VO2 intervals if I need more easy days. Otherwise if things are going really well I'll do a normal long run, long tempo and VO2 intervals up to my taper of 14 days.

I'll right the timeline another way to hopefully make things clearer:
8-10 weeks of long tempo 45-75min
3-4 weeks of threshold intervals 2x20
3-4 weeks of VO2 intervals
2 week taper
Race.

[walker1st]

Jason M, on Jan 29 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

I'll right the timeline another way to hopefully make things clearer:
8-10 weeks of long tempo 45-75min
3-4 weeks of threshold intervals 2x20
3-4 weeks of VO2 intervals
2 week taper
Race.

thanks for clarification, this is a bit different to what I understood initialy.

counting back from M : 2 w taper, 3-4w VO2, 3-4w treshold, = 8-10 weeks

of NO long tempo at marapace 45-75 min

that makes more sense now.

[HillsAths1]

A great question Whippet, and I am sure that the more people read the topic the more varied responses that you will get.

One of the main reasons for the varied responses is that everyone is different as alluded to by Eagle in regards to the Fast/Slow twitch ratio. In addition there are many other considerations to be taken into account, years running, KM's running in last 5 years, Weight etc.

For many being able to 140-160km's is just not an option and they just have to operate on 70-80kms and still try and get a good marathon time, for this group it may be more advantageous for them to do a little more speed work and a little less longer distance. The thought behind this is that you can slow down and go further(in a race).

I would also suggest that it is very unlikely that the quicker marathon runners do not do speed work of some kind in their training, it could be as Eagle has pointed out 800's, 1200's etc. I discussed with an athlete last night who is doing Canberra this year that doing 300m sessions(unless you are going to do a truck load in a session) Remembering that Deek used to do 25 x 400m reps as a regular part of training and not just as a lead into a a marathon.

I also believe that your training needs to be varied or you will become stale and your times are likely to suffer. I am not sure that this is a direct assistance to you Whippet, but as you are already running at a reasonable pace and are doing a fair amount of distance I think that some speed work as part of a balanced program would be of great assistance, even more so if you want to get down to the 2.45 type pace.

It would be foolhardy for anyone to believe that if they could do 40 min for 10km or 85 min for a half that they would be able to continue that pace for a full marathon.

[Colin]

southy, on Jan 29 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

I am not a marathoner but IMHO 'ease of speed' is important, even to a marathoner. In order to be able to maintain 4m per k for 42 kms then 4min per k must feel very easy early on.
Therefore the more 'speed reserve' you have the better. No, you don't have to be able to do a 54 sec 400m but you must be able to do at least 3:30 or so , comfortably for 1km before you can hope to be able to run 4min kms for 42k. I suppose some people would call it running effeciency here.

Exactly,

Many question the need to do anything less than 1000m (or even 2000m) for marathon, but (for me) in order to run a marathon at sub 3:30 pace I used to do 1000m reps at 3:00-3:05 with a 4min km 'jog' in between (equiv to a 35min 10km with alternate 3min/4min k's, and in order to do that I did 400's at 62 sec, and to do that I id 200's at 28 sec and to do tha I did 100's at <13sec.

The 100's don't have a direct effect on the marathon, but they enable you to do the other sessions which do have an effect, by lifting your top speed.

Tim Noakes theorised that for two hypothetically equal runners, the one that is faster over 100m will be faster at all distances above that.

[Swaggers]

Quote

One of the main reasons for the varied responses is that everyone is different as alluded to by Eagle in regards to the Fast/Slow twitch ratio. In addition there are many other considerations to be taken into account, years running, KM's running in last 5 years, Weight etc.

Yes agreed.

Hey Hills, where did you hear Deek ran 25x400s on a regular basis. I have read his books and in them he says he did 8x400 with 200m float rec.

Crikey Colin, my PB over 400m is 65 seconds. Now I'm all disheartened again (like 26 years ago when some gob said I was wasting my time trying to run under 2:30 because I couldn't run 72 sec 400s in training). Now I know better.

Whippet:
I always run a 1x1k at projected- marathon pace at the end of my 20x300s. It helps to get a feel for running at pace when stuffed. You can also get an idea of heart rate at pace.

Quote

…, if a runner is capable of doing a certain pace but needs to be able to maintain that pace for longer, how much training should be done at a faster pace?

I agree that running faster than race pace is absolutely necessary in training to feel settled at race pace. But how much?

Because we are all different that one is hard to answer. I think a good method is Tuesday one to two k reps at half-marathon pace or maybe ten k pace closer to the event. Thursday 300 to 400 m reps at your recent best five k pace. Maybe a 10x100s if you are racing say 1500m or just to keep you loose and as leg speed work. Saturday up to 10 miles at marathon pace. Heart-rate training is fine if you are into that but I think it is too variable. I prefer to use the times I know I can run and those I hope to run as my gauge. I think that to run 2:48 marathon you need to run , including sprint work etc, about 30k over marathon pace with most of that on tired legs.

You could always go for more marathon-pace running but you'd have to sacrifice leg -speed sessions and the harder long reps. My opinion is the leg speed and harder sessions , in conjunction with a once-a week pace run and base training, are more beneficial than doing lots of marathon- pace running. In long runs at pace the garbage builds in you legs slower. In fast, intense running it hits you sooner and harder –so adaptive response is bound to be more significant. So hard,fast reps are a good way to teach yourself how to re-use lactic acid more efficiently and tolerate build up of potassium and hydrogen ions which scientists now believe slow you down when running in an event such as the marathon.

Put simply, the 10 to16k pace running is for pace judgement and to strengthen the specific muscles and system used in racing at marathon pace (in conjunction with other slower base running); the 1000m reps is to enhance your ability to re-use lactic acid and tolerate the build up of stuff (mentioned earlier) that slows you down; and 300m sessions develop your nervous system, and bouncing over your LT produces large amounts of lactic acid (and or whatever), which forces your body adapt and develop a higher threshold for lactate and handle things like the pyruvate back up more betterer.

In my experience speed work makes it more likely that an athlete will reach their potential and handle maintaining their pace in a marathon.

Cheers Ron.

Edited by Swaggers, 29 January 2009 - 04:05 PM.

[glenda]

Swaggers, what pace would you do your Sunday long runs in vis a vis your (hoped for ) marathon pace? In my case I want 2.50 ( a second below would be great but I won't complain). Given I do speed work religiously twice a week and race Saturdays as you know shorter stuff. I think the extra 2plus minutes I want to shave off last years time is going to be hard for me .

[Colin]

Swaggers, on Jan 29 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

Crikey Colin, my PB over 400m is 65 seconds. Now I'm all disheartened again (like 26 years ago when some gob said I was wasting my time trying to run under 2:30 because I couldn't run 72 sec 400s in training). Now I know better.

mmm...a man who could run 2:26 or under 15min for 5km , but couldn't do one lap at that pace.

Ron...if you only ran 65sec for 400m you probably weren't racing it seriously.

I missed a sub 2min 800 by one sec when I did a 57/64 800m....and I was the slow guy

[Swaggers]

Glenda.

Quote

Swaggers, what pace would you do your Sunday long runs in vis a vis your (hoped for ) marathon pace?

Don't know. These days I just run for two to three hours over hills. Hopefully, Tokyo and the crowds etc will be a factor in you going under 2:50.

Colin: I have never run under 15mins for five k. My PB is 15:12. My mates in the Toowoomba Road Runners used to call me "dead legs". They'd say: "The only thing that changes when Ronnie sprints is the expression on his face".

Like Eagle more or less said we are all different. All you can do is find out what works for your make up and go for it.

Edited by Swaggers, 29 January 2009 - 06:56 PM.

[superflake]

Great advice Swaggers.
I know Colin has been rabitting on about Marathon Pace runs since I joined CR. Took me until 2007 just before Sydney Marathon to listen. I must say the runs are damn hard work but something the body must adapt to before the race so you can get the time you want.
With a couple of 3:03 marathons I'm still hanging out for the last 800m to be removed so I can get under 3 hrs.

I guess in Glenda's case a few 20k runs in 80 mins would get the hoped for 2:48 marathon. Either that or run with Jenny Wickham as she is sitting around the 2:49-2:50 mark at the moment.

Also I used to think a tempo run was like an MP run that you did it at Marathon Pace. Just discovered they should be 40-60 mins and at a pace about 10 secs slower per k than your 10k race PB. Which for me means 10-15 ks at 3:55/k pace. I think these will be really hard work.

[glenda]

Exactly, tempo runs need to be at about your half marathon pace. Coincidentally, just did 20km today for a team tri at Goondiwindi in 35degrees in 1.20...not sure how that translates to a 42 km run in 4 degrees in Tokyo. Jenny is too good for me.

[Whippet gal]

Swaggers, on Jan 29 2009, 07:54 PM, said:

My mates in the Toowoomba Road Runners used to call me "dead legs". They'd say: "The only thing that changes when Ronnie sprints is the expression on his face".

Ahhh - another person devoid of fast-twitch muscle fibres!!! I'm not the only one!!

Great advice on training Swaggers - thanks.

[Whippet gal]

glenda, on Feb 1 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

not sure how that translates to a 42 km run in 4 degrees in Tokyo.

Four degrees! Do you think ugg-boots and a ski-jacket would slow you down?

[runbike]

glenda, on Feb 1 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

Exactly, tempo runs need to be at about your half marathon pace. Coincidentally, just did 20km today for a team tri at Goondiwindi in 35degrees in 1.20...not sure how that translates to a 42 km run in 4 degrees in Tokyo. Jenny is too good for me.

well done at goondiwindi glenda, i also did that race in teams i was a minute slower than u. my consolation was i had a faster bike rider than u as our team won over all on the day (woopy pie.) . i also did kurrawa to durranbah 25 km in 1.47 which i saw u at, i was the dude that gave u a drink along hedges ave on the way back on my moutain bike. i am a little soft to run the whole 50 km. i did gc last year in 3.03 and melb with hardly any training in 3.06. just getting back to the original question personally i dont believe in two things stretching and speed work. what i have found in the past is that when i try speed work i usually get injuried and it messes with my main aim. to remain injurie free and to clock up reasonable kms each week. anything between 70kms and 100 kms. i usually do 3 long runs each week tues 30km thurs 30kms and sunday 35kms . these runs would be at 5 min pace or slower i dont really pay much attention to the times. its funny because i would get passed by about 10 or more runners who i see at the races, who train at a much faster tempo than myself. my point is u can run slower but do more drills while you are running that might help u in a race to achieve a faster time.during my runs i might exagerate my leg raise or concentrate on bringing my abs into the run or i bounce around a little, i might exagerate my arm action, or hold a good form for a 1km or so, i usually also wear heavy shoes in training, also i practise my breathing ect ect. point being i believe in the long slow stuff but u can do lots of things that might help u run faster. i am also a big fan of getting the nutrition right in training and on race day, this to can help in maintaining a solid run in a race such as a marathon. personally i take lots of stuff , but i am a bit lazy to go into that right now. also a big factor i believe is body weight u dont see too many 80 kgs plus run under 3 hours. anyways see u all at the gcmarathon, hopefully we can all run under 3 hours. anyways i better go out for my bike ride after all i am doing australian ironman in 8 or so weeks, think there is a 42 km run or something in that race:( shyt thats going 2 hurt.

[glenda]

runbike, that should be bikerun. My cyclist was pretty good. plus we are girls. Good luck with that ironman. i could n't do 3 long runs like that in a week.. i am too soft. I'll stick with my speedwork. Whippet gal, I will be packing my gloves, beanie etc etc.

[TFive]

glenda, on Feb 1 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

42 km run in 4 degrees in Tokyo.

Think I'll be ditching the skirt. Well done, Glenda - fantastic run.

[Paul Every]

glenda, on Feb 1 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

42 km run in 4 degrees in Tokyo.

TFive, on Feb 8 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

Think I'll be ditching the skirt. Well done, Glenda - fantastic run.

Or at least wear something underneath it.