33 replies to this topic

[allrounder]

at the moment I don't do any runs longer than 2hrs when training for HMs (I cover up to about 21ks on my long runs - I use a hillyish course)...at this stage I have no aspirations to run any races longer than say 25k (off-road events)...

I would like to break 100 minutes...I ran 104:05 at the Weston Creek HM on the weekend (my PB for a HM is 103:42)...by way of background, this track season I have been setting PBs from 800m thru to 10000m (except for the 1500m)...

would longer runs help? if so, how much longer would be appropriate?

if they wouldn't help, what pace should I be looking at doing?

thanks in advance!

[Eagle]

It woul dhelp Iif we knew what was a usual training week as regards distance and pace. To improve it may not be just adding distance to your long run but other changes may have to be made as well.

[bruncle]

Sure, overdistance will help. Adding quality will help even more. Turn your long run into a progression run and run the last 10k at HM pace to really turn it up. And like Eagle said, the long run isn't the only deciding factor. You want to be doing a medium long run and a tempo run during the week as well.

Edited by bruncle, 13 March 2009 - 02:27 PM.

[allrounder]

thanks Eagle & bruncle, I knew there was some other information I should have been including!

a usual training week at the moment is:

Monday - faster work with the speedygeese (after work)
Tuesday - 50-60mins @ ~5:30 or better (lunchtime)
Wednesday - was orienteering after work but will now be as per Tuesday
Thursday - ACT Masters track (this will change to another session with the speedygeese when the track season finishes) (after work)
Friday - 5k handicap race (lunchtime), averaging @ 4:30 pace at the moment
Saturday - no running (I play golf, walking the course while carrying my bag, but could easily fit in another run 40-50min)
Sunday - long run

I've done 10 HMs so far....

thanks again...

Edited by allrounder, 13 March 2009 - 02:48 PM.

[funrunner63]

allrounder, on Mar 12 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

thanks Eagle & bruncle, I knew there was some other information I should have been including!

a usual training week at the moment is:

Monday - faster work with the speedygeese (after work)
Tuesday - 50-60mins @ ~5:30 or better (lunchtime)
Wednesday - was orienteering after work but will now be as per Tuesday
Thursday - ACT Masters track (this will change to another session with the speedygeese when the track season finishes) (after work)
Friday - 5k handicap race (lunchtime), averaging @ 4:30 pace at the moment
Saturday - no running (I play golf, walking the course while carrying my bag, but could easily fit in another run 40-50min)
Sunday - long run

I've done 10 HMs so far....

thanks again...

Seems to me there needs to be a little more pace in there. The 5k race you're doing is 15 secs/km slower than it should be for a 5k race, if you want to break the 100min mark for the half. Currently you're doing it at what your 10k race pace should be. Your Tuesday 10k run is 45 secs/km slower than what your 1/2 marathon race pace should be.

Sounds like the extra track session with the speedygeese would be useful, but I think it would be good to be getting in a longer tempo with the middle run at 4:30min/k pace. Either the Tuesday or Wednesday run could be a 10-12k run with the middle 6k @ 4:30min/k.

At the end of the day, if you want to run 21.1k at 4:45min/km, you should be doing at least that many kilometres spread throughout the week at that pace or faster.

Interested in what others think,

Funrunner aka Craig

[Peterhorse]

i went from 104mins to 98mins in about 9 months - main difference was Pat Carroll sessions - shorter sharper intervals at faster speeds (sub 4min/km repeats in my case or equivalent depenidng on the session). however, i think that it would be good to also do the longer long runs you proposed in the question - i was told once that every minute you can run over 2hrs is gold. and after forcing myself to get back to that, i have to agree it's working pretty quickly.

[bruncle]

funrunner63, on Mar 13 2009, 04:16 PM, said:

At the end of the day, if you want to run 21.1k at 4:45min/km, you should be doing at least that many kilometres spread throughout the week at that pace or faster.

Interested in what others think,

Funrunner aka Craig

Don't think this has much truth as a rule of thumb. I've never gotten close to running 21.1k at HM pace during the week. I don't think it's possible if you're doing a decent amount of volume, you just won't have the legs. HM pace is pretty intense - tempo run pace really. Unless you're doing a couple of tempo runs a week (which would be inadvisable imo), you'd never manage it.

Doing lots of race pace running is definitely important, but it's not the only way to skin the cat. In the last three months, I ran faster than 5:00/k probably about 4 or 5 times (mostly closer to 8:00/k). Last Sunday I ran 30:55 for 8k (3:53/k). I definitely would have gone faster if I had been able to do more intense workouts (literally physically could not go faster than 8:00/k due to immense training load), but still I think that provides a good proof that volume alone can work wonders.

I think allrounder's schedule looks pretty good. When I did my first HM in 1:38 (and realistically should have run closer to 90 but anaemia slowed me down a bit), I was doing 5k tempo runs in about 21:00 (4:12/k). Weekly volume was around 45km (peak of 70k) with max long runs of 25k. Average pace was over 5:30/k.

So the 5k race probably needs to be a tad faster, but on the other hand, the track work would probably make up for it. What exactly do these track workouts involve allrounder?

[funrunner63]

bruncle, on Mar 13 2009, 12:06 AM, said:

Don't think this has much truth as a rule of thumb. I've never gotten close to running 21.1k at HM pace during the week. I don't think it's possible if you're doing a decent amount of volume, you just won't have the legs. HM pace is pretty intense - tempo run pace really. Unless you're doing a couple of tempo runs a week (which would be inadvisable imo), you'd never manage it.

Doing lots of race pace running is definitely important, but it's not the only way to skin the cat. In the last three months, I ran faster than 5:00/k probably about 4 or 5 times (mostly closer to 8:00/k). Last Sunday I ran 30:55 for 8k (3:53/k). I definitely would have gone faster if I had been able to do more intense workouts (literally physically could not go faster than 8:00/k due to immense training load), but still I think that provides a good proof that volume alone can work wonders.

I think allrounder's schedule looks pretty good. When I did my first HM in 1:38 (and realistically should have run closer to 90 but anaemia slowed me down a bit), I was doing 5k tempo runs in about 21:00 (4:12/k). Weekly volume was around 45km (peak of 70k) with max long runs of 25k. Average pace was over 5:30/k.

So the 5k race probably needs to be a tad faster, but on the other hand, the track work would probably make up for it. What exactly do these track workouts involve allrounder?

Sorry Bruncle,

May have been misunderstood, I might be completely wrong.

What I meant was, out of your total mileage for the week, 21.1k or more should be at a pace faster than that which you want to race at. I didn't mean doing it all in one session, rather split over 3-5 sessions whether in interval work, tempo runs, progression runs, whatever. Long/medium runs would be done on top of those faster 21.1ks, but at slower paces.

That is, if you say you peaked at 70k, at least 21.1 of those weekly kilometres should have been made up of some work at or faster than you planned race pace.

One 5k race and 2 track workouts totalling 8k each adds up to 21k; they shouldn't be slower than half marathon race pace

I would find it hard to race at a certain distance, at a certain pace, if I hadn't been practicing that pace or faster, enough throughout the week.

Maybe I'm wrong; you are faster than me, maybe I'm coming from a marathon training point of view, I'm not sure...

Funrunner aka Craig

Edited by funrunner63, 13 March 2009 - 04:48 PM.

[bruncle]

I understood what you meant, but from my understanding of optimum HM training, I don't think you'd ever have 21.1k at HM pace or faster. Critical workouts for HM distance are the same as for Marathons: the long run and the tempo run. Track workouts don't really play a role (VO2 max workouts are useless for HMs) unless you're doing long intervals, which are really tempo runs in disguise. Tempo runs generally max out at 40 minutes, which for most people would be less than 10k. I guess you could do two tempo runs per week, which would be close to 21k, but I haven't seen many training plans that advocate that because it's just too tough to recover from.

It is an interesting idea though. You definitely do need to do some running at race pace, but I know that I personally could not handle 21.1km of it. When I ran my PB (1:26:57) over the HM distance last year, I wasn't able to run that fast in training at all, even in tempo runs. This could just show that I wasn't fully adapted to the mileage I was doing though..

My training plan right now (training for Melbourne HM) would ideally have me doing perhaps 15km at HM pace (in practice, I don't think I'd manage that much). That would involve a 10k tempo run and a 5k kickdown at the end of the long run. I'd also do a hill workout, which is arguably at HM intensity, but definitely not HM pace:P

Edited by bruncle, 13 March 2009 - 05:49 PM.

[glenda]

Long run already at 2 hours..I wouldn't go over 2.5 hrs for a hm. 2 speed sessions and a med long run mid week and i easy one, gives 5 days running which I reckon is enough to run 1.40 for a half, given you are not far off. Don't make it too complicated trying to run at x pace. You can cross train if you are keen on the other days, but as you say, you play golf, which is great for your rest day. I often go for a walk the day before a race (less it's a marathon, then I expect to sit down all day and have people bring me food and water)

[moby]

My suggestion would be to ask yourself a couple of questions:

1. Do you have the speed to run a half in sub 1:40?
So take your (preferably recent) 10km and 5km times, plug them into a calculator (like Macmillan) or look at conversion tables in a book to see what they equate to in terms of an equivalent half marathon time.

If you are in the ballpark, or your shorter performances indicate you should be able to do it, then the next question is:

2. Do you have the stamina/endurance to carry the speed necessary for 21.1km?

If you are not in the ballpark on speed then you may struggle to make it until you improve times at the shorter distances, but if you do have the speed then it is really all about improving your stamina. This will determine what you need to focus on.

For me, the improvements at half marathon came from overall mileage, over distance long runs (min 28km each week), long tempo runs (up to 12.8km at a pace about 10-12sec/km slower than my goal HM pace) plus 1.5km intervals at about 10km race pace.

Of course the above is only a guide as you may be better suited to longer distances (stamina over speed) or to shorter distances (speed rather than stamina). I am one for whom it doesn’t necessarily work as my half marathon PB (which admittedly was run off of high mileage marathon training) would indicate that my 10km PB should be 2mins faster than it is. I seem to be a bit better at the stamina thing. However I’m hoping to improve that 10km PB on Sunday.

[allrounder]

Quote

QUOTE (funrunner63 @ Mar 13 2009, 4:16PM)
Seems to me there needs to be a little more pace in there. The 5k race you're doing is 15 secs/km slower than it should be for a 5k race, if you want to break the 100min mark for the half. Currently you're doing it at what your 10k race pace should be. Your Tuesday 10k run is 45 secs/km slower than what your 1/2 marathon race pace should be.

Sounds like the extra track session with the speedygeese would be useful, but I think it would be good to be getting in a longer tempo with the middle run at 4:30min/k pace. Either the Tuesday or Wednesday run could be a 10-12k run with the middle 6k @ 4:30min/k.

At the end of the day, if you want to run 21.1k at 4:45min/km, you should be doing at least that many kilometres spread throughout the week at that pace or faster.

thanks for that detailed response…I did a 5000m PB last night (22:12.1)…my issue is pacing but I’m getting better…

I like the idea of a tempo run…

Quote

QUOTE (bruncle @ Mar 13, 2009, 5:06PM)
I think allrounder's schedule looks pretty good. When I did my first HM in 1:38 (and realistically should have run closer to 90 but anaemia slowed me down a bit), I was doing 5k tempo runs in about 21:00 (4:12/k). Weekly volume was around 45km (peak of 70k) with max long runs of 25k. Average pace was over 5:30/k.

So the 5k race probably needs to be a tad faster, but on the other hand, the track work would probably make up for it. What exactly do these track workouts involve allrounder? .

Do you mean the speedygeese sessions? the Monday sessions are done at Parliament House on the trails…intervals could be anywhere from 40sec efforts up to 4-4:30min efforts with either standing, walking or jogging recovery…6-12 repeats…

Thursday when they re-start are done on a grass track with a similar sort of focus although we use distance rather than time as the guide…

Quote

QUOTE (moby @ Mar 13, 2009, 7:32PM)
1. Do you have the speed to run a half in sub 1:40?

So take your (preferably recent) 10km and 5km times, plug them into a calculator (like Macmillan) or look at conversion tables in a book to see what they equate to in terms of an equivalent half marathon time.

If you are in the ballpark, or your shorter performances indicate you should be able to do it, then the next question is:

2. Do you have the stamina/endurance to carry the speed necessary for 21.1km?

If you are not in the ballpark on speed then you may struggle to make it until you improve times at the shorter distances, but if you do have the speed then it is really all about improving your stamina. This will determine what you need to focus on. .

From MacMillan:

My 5000m PB = 1:42:37 for the HM
My 10000m PB = 1:40:48 for the HM

So maybe 1:40 is realistic?

Edited by allrounder, 13 March 2009 - 09:54 PM.

[Peterhorse]

[/quote]
From MacMillan:

My 5000m PB = 1:42:37 for the HM
My 10000m PB = 1:40:48 for the HM

So maybe 1:40 is realistic?
[/quote]
For sure it's realistic, you're almost there!

[walker1st]

I would dropp all the speed sessions and would make it pretty simple :

1 x 2H @ pace about 1 min slower than targeted halfmarathon

3 x 90 min @ pace 30 secs slower than targeted halfmaraton pace

2 x 40 min at very slow recovery pace, about 3 min slower than halfmara pace

this would also significantly improve the 10k and 5 km PB's

make 1-2 of the 90 min session in hills, but NOT too steep.

every 2 or 3 weeks, do not do the 2H session, but run 10k race instead flat out.


edit : hills NOT too steep (NOT was missing originaly, sorry)

Edited by walker1st, 14 March 2009 - 02:34 PM.

[Peterhorse]

walker1st, on Mar 14 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

I would dropp all the speed sessions and would make it pretty simple :

1 x 2H @ pace about 1 min slower than targeted halfmarathon

3 x 90 min @ pace 30 secs slower than targeted halfmaraton pace

2 x 40 min at very slow recovery pace, about 3 min slower than halfmara pace

this would also significantly improve the 10k and 5 km PB's

make 1-2 of the 90 min session in hills, but too steep.

every 2 or 3 weeks, do not do the 2H session, but run 10k race instead flat out.

that might be a good program for the base building phase or 'off season' but when you are 5-6 weeks out, i reckon you need to add the speed stuff in place of 2 or those 90min runs - tempo, intervals etc.

[Cl@rkey]

I am personally not a fan of structure in either training or speed sessions. it just doesn't fit with life & personality etc, but I do believe there needs to be training which simulates the race you expect to run.

So I don't understand how you could train for a HM or 10km or any distance without doing regular training at or faster than the goal pace????

As for how much volume of work at that pace, I'm not sure on the equal distance to goal race, perhaps it would be better to be X% of a normal weeks training. No idea what the X should be...

[walker1st]

see how we all understand the traing physiology differently.

I realize 1 thing however, I can not keep selling the same simple structure of aerobic training each week for $, so if I was a salesman I would have to put in some intervals and write them each week very differently, to justify my income.

[Tony123]

walker1st, on Mar 14 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

I would dropp all the speed sessions and would make it pretty simple :

1 x 2H @ pace about 1 min slower than targeted halfmarathon

3 x 90 min @ pace 30 secs slower than targeted halfmaraton pace

2 x 40 min at very slow recovery pace, about 3 min slower than halfmara pace

this would also significantly improve the 10k and 5 km PB's

make 1-2 of the 90 min session in hills, but too steep.

every 2 or 3 weeks, do not do the 2H session, but run 10k race instead flat out.

This is great advice. Following this plan will allow you to run more kms during the week, because the body will not be stressed from the speed sessions. Running more kms will improve the 5km and 10km times.

[moby]

allrounder, on Mar 13 2009, 10:53 PM, said:

From MacMillan:

My 5000m PB = 1:42:37 for the HM
My 10000m PB = 1:40:48 for the HM

So maybe 1:40 is realistic?

Yep, absolutely based on the 10km time. You just need the stamina to carry 1:40 pace. It will come. The tempo runs and long intervals are great for that, as is plenty of general aerobic running.

[funrunner63]

Clarkey of CP, on Mar 13 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

As for how much volume of work at that pace, I'm not sure on the equal distance to goal race, perhaps it would be better to be X% of a normal weeks training. No idea what the X should be...

Yeah, fair call...

The beauty of running, we can all tackle similar goals with different yet similar strategies.

[Cl@rkey]

Totally agree that by building the km in training you will definitely see results.

I saw that last year when training for Trailwalker and other long events of 50-100km, most of my training was based on learning to run consistently for long periods.

Yes - I did run some faster times in shorter events and I was happy with the results.
BUT I also know that I could run faster at those distances by combining the long running, but also mixing in training at the pace required to race. For ME - it teaches me to find a good running rhythm at the race pace, so legs / lungs / head etc know what they are in for during the race.

Isn't just running at paces slower than race pace a bit like reading the script of a play but never doing a dress rehearsal??

W1 - are there any current or past world record holders you could direct us to that employ the aerobic only training you refer to. Or even a local runner that performs really well in races??

Anyone else that can share how they used this method to run to their absolute potential??


I also realised that I forgot to refer to the original question about running longer. IMO - if you can run longer it will help build the endurance so the shorter races become more about getting maximum speed for the distance because you have no question marks about getting to the finish line. If I was training for a HM I believe I would have long runs up to 2hrs or 25km+, my current HM best is 86min, HM potential will have to wait until I decide to focus on it.....

[walker1st]

Clarkey of CP, on Mar 14 2009, 03:52 PM, said:

W1 - are there any current or past world record holders you could direct us to that employ the aerobic only training you refer to. Or even a local runner that performs really well in races??

the question is tricky, as to run world record for already elite runner is very different to funrunner trying to get under 100 min halfmarathon.

In answering the original posting the situation of the individual must be taken into consideration
not mental copy-pasting of the training regime of world record elite last 6 weeks before setting new WR.

I remember reading lots of training diaries from various elite runners, marathoners, european, japanese etc from recent or distant times, where there was no speed, anaerobic training etc.

However in trying for begginer or established funrunner to break 100 min half, the situation is very different, reading Lydiard will give answers on its own.

putting icing on nonexistent cake is buggering up any future progress in my view.

Get the half under 70, or perhaps under 65 or even 62, and if than You need some desperate attempt on going under 60 and will masterfully apply the intervals method for last 6 weeks into it, than great, but otherwise ?

On the other hand I am sure we all can find training diaries with lots of speed interval stuff, running faster than race pace etc, so we can all decide to copy this, remember however, that thouse who made it, first build the base for months, years.

You can also find lots of examples who made performance level quickly using fast intervals method, achieved some kind of results and than never ever repeated it again... but keep talking how great the method is, because they have done it with minimum volume and in short time.

I do not think, that the purpose of internet forum is persuade each other, it is only place to post individual views and is great when these views are differing, contradicting, oposing, with some arguments etc,
but the end result should NOT be unanymous agreament on common policy.

Edited by walker1st, 14 March 2009 - 05:34 PM.

[allrounder]

thanks everyone for your comments...plenty of food for thought!

sooo, given that I like the mix of sessions I currently do then I think it's a case of changing one of my midweek 50-60min runs to a tempo run and perhaps extending my long run to a max of 2.5hrs...

[funrunner63]

allrounder, on Mar 14 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

thanks everyone for your comments...plenty of food for thought!

sooo, given that I like the mix of sessions I currently do then I think it's a case of changing one of my midweek 50-60min runs to a tempo run and perhaps extending my long run to a max of 2.5hrs...

Looking forward to you cracking that 100min mark real soon.

Let us know when it happens.

Funrunner aka Craig

[Cl@rkey]

Thanks W1 - that makes much more sense!! I agree there is not one method for all runners due to unique characteristics of each individuals situation.

I read your first post as a bit 'one size fits all'

Thanks for clarifying.

[Peterhorse]

Hey Rudi, that's a good post mate. You're acknowledging training phases that include icing on the cake (speed) rather than how some of your previous posts in other threads come across - i.e. no speed required ever.

[blair]

Allrounder, I'll be very interested to hear how you go with your goal and how you train for it as I have very similar times and would also love to do a sub-1:40. Keep us up to date on your progress.

[Swaggers]

allrounder, on Mar 13 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

at the moment I don't do any runs longer than 2hrs when training for HMs (I cover up to about 21ks on my long runs - I use a hillyish course)...at this stage I have no aspirations to run any races longer than say 25k (off-road events)...

I would like to break 100 minutes...I ran 104:05 at the Weston Creek HM on the weekend (my PB for a HM is 103:42)...by way of background, this track season I have been setting PBs from 800m thru to 10000m (except for the 1500m)...

would longer runs help? if so, how much longer would be appropriate?

if they wouldn't help, what pace should I be looking at doing?

thanks in advance!

Allrounder. First let me say that people get the wrong idea about speed sessions and interval training. You don't have to over-exert yourself. Yes that may lead to short term adaptions and impress your follow trainers but it doesn't necessarily establish a lasting speed endurance capability. Rudi is correct, at our level we need to strive for sustainable development. Take too much from your reserves and you will break down. I still think MAF training is fine for beginners to get some condition on but for aspirational runners it is a bound to be a let down. But then again they'll never know how far they fell short unless they get stuck in.

This is why I think you need to use your own PBs and well-considered aspirations as the guide to your speed sessions. So Allrounder you know your PB up to 10000m? Why not use these to guide in your training.

There are three speed session in the complex system. One to two k reps on tuesday; 200, 300,400 intervals on Thursday and pace run of some distance on Saturday.

A typical weel looks like this.
Monday. Recovery.
Tuesday. 6 x 1k at 10000m pace. Definately no faster than 5000m pace. You might get down to this during a taper.

Wed. Moderate long run. Preferably on a flat surface so you can rythm run. I actually run some long grinding hills in the build -up stage. Long enough to get into a rythm.

Thursday. 10 x 400s at 5000m pace. If you are doing various distances at interclub, a good idea is to do runs at that pace. For instance. Let's say you intend to race a 1500s and 800s regularly over summer. You could do say 6x400 and then say 10x150s at 1500m pace and 8x100 at 800m pace.
I don't reset my watch after each one. Chance are you'll run quicker for the total distance and that doesn't matter so long as you are not straining or pulling up too sore. The goal is to adapt to the pace to avoid injury and it helps with neuro development and all the other stuff. Grass or dirt surface for this session.

I don't think it is wise to do any more than 6k at speed on Thursday.

Friday. Recovery run.

Saturday. Pace run at your expected 21.1 k pace. I am not sure how far. I think between 8 and 12k. I do 3x4ks at pace when focussing on a 21.1k race. Sometimes in the early training for a half marathon I have to settle for my marathon pace.

Sunday. Long run. A hilly dirt trail is where you can roll along is best - no goat trails. Two hours is plenty for a half marathon. I think at our level and on this program it is unrealisitic to try and run the last kilometres at half marathon pace. I would suggest getting into the habit of running strongly for home over the last 30 minutes or so though. Maybe on other programs where there is virtually a taper every second week you may easily manage that pace but the hard session the day before should leave you tired (not exhausted) for your long run. The long run is for pure endurance ; to toughen those tendons; send out new capillaries; learn to utilise fat; help with efficiency - and to relax. I think that easing up and making it possible to run the last few k's at pace just teaches your body how to run fast on fresh legs and that is easy peasy. When you can run the last six k at pace on Sunday after doing tempo on Saturday, then you have developed real strength - a real abilty to hold on at pace. That takes years of steady progress. Don't stress if you can't do this because even the elite have trouble with finishing off at pace after a hard Saturday.

So there you go. That is just another opinion to add to your portfolio.

[TechGirl]

walker1st, on Mar 14 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

I would dropp all the speed sessions and would make it pretty simple :

1 x 2H @ pace about 1 min slower than targeted halfmarathon

3 x 90 min @ pace 30 secs slower than targeted halfmaraton pace

2 x 40 min at very slow recovery pace, about 3 min slower than halfmara pace

this would also significantly improve the 10k and 5 km PB's

make 1-2 of the 90 min session in hills, but NOT too steep.

every 2 or 3 weeks, do not do the 2H session, but run 10k race instead flat out.

Just want to clarify: I assume when you say @pace 1 min slower than targeted HM you mean 1 min/km?

It's just that I can't imagine running 3min/km slower (the recovery pace), I just can't run that slow (except up hill)!

TechGirl

[undercover brother]

balri, on Mar 15 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

Allrounder, I'll be very interested to hear how you go with your goal and how you train for it as I have very similar times and would also love to do a sub-1:40. Keep us up to date on your progress.

thats easy for you balri.... instructions as below.
1. turn up
2. run

[walker1st]

TechGirl, on Mar 15 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

Just want to clarify: I assume when you say @pace 1 min slower than targeted HM you mean 1 min/km?

It's just that I can't imagine running 3min/km slower (the recovery pace), I just can't run that slow (except up hill)!

TechGirl

yes min/km


yeah I am getting used to this respond, every runner new to LOW HR training says exactly the same
but if persistent, they body will learn and adapt, it is just a choice really.

Logicaly I cant understand, how people wanna be able to run fast if they cant run slow ?

[blair]

undercover brother, on Mar 15 2009, 07:58 PM, said:

thats easy for you balri.... instructions as below.
1. turn up
2. run

haha. I wish it were that easy Bro.

[allrounder]

balri, on Mar 15 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

Allrounder, I'll be very interested to hear how you go with your goal and how you train for it as I have very similar times and would also love to do a sub-1:40. Keep us up to date on your progress.

I'll try - I do report all sessions in my blog (see signature)

funrunner63, on Mar 15 2009, 04:41 AM, said:

Looking forward to you cracking that 100min mark real soon.

Let us know when it happens.

Funrunner aka Craig

love your optimism on my behalf, thanks!

Swaggers, on Mar 15 2009, 04:06 PM, said:

...
A typical week looks like this.
Monday. Recovery.
Tuesday. 6 x 1k at 10000m pace. Definately no faster than 5000m pace. You might get down to this during a taper.

Wed. Moderate long run. Preferably on a flat surface so you can rythm run. I actually run some long grinding hills in the build -up stage. Long enough to get into a rythm.

Thursday. 10 x 400s at 5000m pace. If you are doing various distances at interclub, a good idea is to do runs at that pace. For instance. Let's say you intend to race a 1500s and 800s regularly over summer. You could do say 6x400 and then say 10x150s at 1500m pace and 8x100 at 800m pace.
I don't reset my watch after each one. Chance are you'll run quicker for the total distance and that doesn't matter so long as you are not straining or pulling up too sore. The goal is to adapt to the pace to avoid injury and it helps with neuro development and all the other stuff. Grass or dirt surface for this session.

I don't think it is wise to do any more than 6k at speed on Thursday.

Friday. Recovery run.

Saturday. Pace run at your expected 21.1 k pace. I am not sure how far. I think between 8 and 12k. I do 3x4ks at pace when focussing on a 21.1k race. Sometimes in the early training for a half marathon I have to settle for my marathon pace.

Sunday. Long run. A hilly dirt trail is where you can roll along is best - no goat trails. Two hours is plenty for a half marathon. I think at our level and on this program it is unrealisitic to try and run the last kilometres at half marathon pace. I would suggest getting into the habit of running strongly for home over the last 30 minutes or so though. Maybe on other programs where there is virtually a taper every second week you may easily manage that pace but the hard session the day before should leave you tired (not exhausted) for your long run. The long run is for pure endurance ; to toughen those tendons; send out new capillaries; learn to utilise fat; help with efficiency - and to relax. I think that easing up and making it possible to run the last few k's at pace just teaches your body how to run fast on fresh legs and that is easy peasy. When you can run the last six k at pace on Sunday after doing tempo on Saturday, then you have developed real strength - a real abilty to hold on at pace. That takes years of steady progress. Don't stress if you can't do this because even the elite have trouble with finishing off at pace after a hard Saturday.

So there you go. That is just another opinion to add to your portfolio.

thanks for the input...more food for thought...

[allrounder]

Just a quick update for those that are interested...Sunday I did the Canberra HM in 103:10, a 30sec PB (which was set at the same event last year) which was nearly a minute quicker than the Weston Creek HM which inspired my original question...

Since my original post my program has roughly been

Monday - intervals after work (with speedygeese)
Tuesday - 60mins @ 5:20 pace (lunchtime)
Wednesday - 40mins tempo (10mins steady, 20mins @ 4:55-5:00, 10mins steady)
Thursday - intervals after work (with speedygeese on grass track)
Friday - 5k handicap race
Saturday - golf (!)
Sunday - long run*

*I only actually managed 3 long runs (90, 105, 120) in the 9 weeks leading up to the Canberra HM

actual Sunday schedule in lead up to Canberra HM:

15/3 90mins
22/3 105mins
29/3 ACT Masters Monthly Handicap (8k trail)
5/4 24hr MTB event
12/4 nothing (can't remember why, probably just lazy!)
18/4 (SAT) Marathon Eve 10k (SUN) marathon marshall!
26/4 ran to/from ACT Masters Monthly Handicap event I was rostered on (just over 11k each way - 1st run @ 7am, second run @ 11am, taking just over an hour for each)
3/5 120mins
10/5 Mothers Day Classic 10k

nothing flash about the 10k times - I was very disappointed in my Marathon Eve run but the Mothers Day Classic run felt much better even though only a little faster (I was held up considerably by the narrowness of the course in the first 1.75k and think I could have gone at least 60secs quicker)...

So with just under 7 weeks to my next HM (Gold Coast) my plan is basically more of the same BUT to increase the Wednesday tempo to 45mins initially (with 25mins devoted to the "faster" pace) and to aim for the following with my "long" run (and also maybe gradually increase the length of my Tuesday runs up to 80mins?):

Weekend of 23-24/5: 18k Mt Rob Roy Challenge (SUN)
Weekend of 30-31/5: 60mins (SAT); ACT Masters Monthly Handicap 7.5k West Stromlo (SUN)
Weekend of 6-7/6: 120mins (SUN)
Weekend of 13-14/6: 135mins (SUN)
Weekend of 20-21/6: 60mins (SAT), Canada Fun Run 10k (SUN)
Weekend of 27-28/6: 60mins (SAT), ACT Masters Monthly Handicap 9.3k Mt Ainslie (SUN)
Weekend of 4-5/7: GC HM

here's a link to the ACT Masters Monthly Handicap calendar

I'll be aiming to break 1:43 at GC as my main goal...pacing will be the key (which I was pretty pleased with on Sunday - it's always been my biggest hurdle) and to not be complacent about the relative flatness of the course...

Edited by allrounder, 19 May 2009 - 03:51 PM.