18 replies to this topic

[Sorrento]

So I've done all my training for my first Olympic tri. I've even done a 40k/10k brick. So now, even though I keep telling myself that all I want to do is complete this thing I keep trying to work out some realistic times for each leg.

Sure there are so many factors at play and there's the whole "how you feel on the day" thing, or it could be windy and the bike messes you up big time. But putting all that aside what, if any, theories do you use to work out a time you'd be happy with for the 10k run off the bike.

I know what my best 10k time is and I know what I can fairly comfortably do in a 10k training run (about 15sec/km slower than fastest 10k). I have told myself that I would be happy 30sec/km slower than my best 10k time.

Just wondering if anyone else bothers with this or if I am on my own over analysing (again)...

[MissZ]

Hi Sorrento

I don't bother trying to work out a goal run time in a tri. Apart from the factors you mentioned, the biggest problem is that triathlon run courses are notoriously innaccurate. I have run "PBs" in a triathlon and I know I don't run faster off the bike.

Better measures are how you feel on the day, compared to normal - do you feel strong, can you put in a good surge over the last k or so, etc. Also look closely at the results for your category place for each leg and see how they compare. If you are a good runner then you would expect to place higher in that leg than the bike and swim, and make up time on the more experienced triathletes over the run leg.

If you race the same course again in the future, then you can start to compare times. Good luck!

[B+]

It all depends on how fast your current 10km run time is....and how fit you are on the bike.

When I started triathlon I came from more of a riding background and my run off the bike was 5min slower than fresh. Over time both legs improved and by run differential at last race was 1min16sec. These times are all from the same run course so this can eliminate the "notoriously inaccurate" factor.

Better, fitter athletes see less variant between the 2.

Train safe

[miners]

yeah, as mentioned it depends on how conditioned you are to running off the bike. It'll take a good season or two until you're able to go close to matching your fresh run to your run-off times (unless you decide to tank it on the bike).

I generally find I do about a 2-3 minute differential over 10km on a good day - but it's easy to blow out to a 5-10 minute difference on a bad one

[Goughy]

I need about a k or 2 until my legs feel 'normal'. My last 10k time was 50:59 (easy course). My last 5.2k tri run time (these were 1 week apart) was 28:30 but I stopped to help a kid who'd fallen off her bike, so I'd say it was more like 27:30.

[bumcrackjack]

As some have mentioned, bike conditioning will be your biggest limiter to you running off the bike. The more matches you burn on the ride, the more your run time will be affected.

All things being equal you normally can add about 10% to your 10k run time so if you are a 40 min 10k runner, you will look at around 42:30 give or take depending on the course.

A good tip when straight off the bike which is where most people struggle to find their legs is to take smaller steps and keep the tempo quick. Keep a nice fast turnover till your legs come good which is generally for less experienced people about 8 - 10 minutes in. Once you feel legs coming good you can start to settle into your normal stride.

[Sorrento]

Thanks everyone.

I purposely didn't post a time because I didn't want it to turn into one of those posts I've seen in the 10k forum and I thought a relative time was probably more appropriate ie it's going to be slower but how much

Anyway, with the "it depends on the day" thing set aside it sounds like my 30 sec/km (ie 5 minutes slower over 10k) might be a good goal unless everything really falls apart.

I also seem to be rushing a little off the bike. I am having trouble pacing myself off the bike and I end up going too fast because it just simply doesn't feel normal. This has happened in every brick session that I have done. So on race day I don't want to get caught out by going too fast early and then dying 5k from home. I'd rather set myself a more realistic pace early and then hopefully have something left to put in a bit extra on the way home. I guess we'll see what happens, not long to go now.

Thanks again.

[James77]

Sorrento, on Mar 18 2009, 08:24 PM, said:

Thanks everyone.

I purposely didn't post a time because I didn't want it to turn into one of those posts I've seen in the 10k forum and I thought a relative time was probably more appropriate ie it's going to be slower but how much

Anyway, with the "it depends on the day" thing set aside it sounds like my 30 sec/km (ie 5 minutes slower over 10k) might be a good goal unless everything really falls apart.

I also seem to be rushing a little off the bike. I am having trouble pacing myself off the bike and I end up going too fast because it just simply doesn't feel normal. This has happened in every brick session that I have done. So on race day I don't want to get caught out by going too fast early and then dying 5k from home. I'd rather set myself a more realistic pace early and then hopefully have something left to put in a bit extra on the way home. I guess we'll see what happens, not long to go now.

Thanks again.

sounds like you have never raced - doing a OD is a pretty good start though!!!!

I think it is one of those things you will find as you go but being the first take it easy right off the bike within reason, I like to build up so take it easy then decide in the 1st K what my pace will be then take it from there - too many factors are in place on race day with the 3 disciplines (hard swims, windy bike leg etc)

your ideas might work for you so give it a go - some plannning always helps...

[Sorrento]

miners, on Mar 18 2009, 07:05 AM, said:

I generally find I do about a 2-3 minute differential over 10km on a good day - but it's easy to blow out to a 5-10 minute difference on a bad one

So I have done it now, and I had the bad one! Everything was hurting, especially running uphill (hip flexors I think, I guess from the bike). Anyway, I came in over 51 minutes and was hoping for 47:30 based on a 10k race time around 42:30. Anyway, I am sure there are lessons to be learned, but first there are things to be fixed, off to the physio...

[Paul Every]

Sorrento, I'm sure your body will become more efficient in and accustomed to running off the bike. It is something that comes with not too much experience.

Trust there is no serious damage done and you'll be back to racing soon.

[TynoMite]

Sorrento, on Mar 30 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

Anyway, I came in over 51 minutes

I'll swap you any day
I still haven't got the run leg of a race right yet.
Ended up with 60:18 on the weekend and struggled the whole way.

[Kandingo]

try to have a run off the bike as many times as you can...doesn't have to be long 2/3km or maybe 15 min...gets your legs more accustomed to the impact of bike to run.

[JemWhyte]

Kandingo, on Mar 30 2009, 10:55 PM, said:

try to have a run off the bike as many times as you can...doesn't have to be long 2/3km or maybe 15 min...gets your legs more accustomed to the impact of bike to run.

I find myself going out steady then trying to speed up near the end and use fast twitch muscles near the end of the race.

Just wondering what the psychology of the opposite approach is - ie going out fast in the run off the bike? i know some people who swear by it (and are very good..ala Ms Snowsill).


cheers
Jem

[Jason M]

Running off the bike is a very trainable skill. From my experience changing the training focus away from swim training plus bike training plus run training and then combine it about once a week or even just on race day and hope it all comes together only gets you so far. The sport is triathlon and the ability to run off the bike (especially in olympic or shorter) can be improved significantly by actually doing it often in training.

There are a few studies that have shown the biggest area for improvement amongst high level competitors is over the first 1-2km of a 5km run in a sprint distance race.

Personally I managed a couple of seasons where my run off the bike was faster than my fresh run times for 5-10km. The majority of my training were combined sessions in various formats, and order plus only one long session per week per discipline. The key session I tend to credit the most with improvement was run-bike-run repeats performed in a group. The first couple of repeats were used as warm-ups and focused on the skills of transition then the rest 2-8 were raced. Distances were something in the range of Run 100-200m/Bike 2-4km criterium style circuit/Run 200-500m.

[Sorrento]

I think that I may gave focused a little too much on the distance coverd rather than the actual first k or so off the bike. I did a bike/run every Sunday for the last 10 weeks. Due to limited time this was also my long bike session. The bike runs were increased from 20/5 up to 40/10, with a few different things mixed in like 1k or so efforts on the bike, 10k hard etc. I had done the 40k/10k fairly comfortably so was confident I could achieve the time I wanted, but my body decided against it on the day.

I like the idea of trying the repeats, I think I'll give that a crack next time.

[miners]

yes, as KD and Jase have mentioned, it's not about trying to replicate the race distance in your training, but training your body to 'run-off'. So as is the case with a marathon program, you won't find yourself running 42.2 in training. At best, you may run as long as 34-36k, but there will be 8km & 12km runs in that marathon program which are just as valuable.

So try incorporating a short run after your long bike. Just 10-15 minutes or so. Run it as smoothly and as hard as you can, without belting it at your 5km race pace. Get the legs used to running 'well' off the bike, so you have little transition-lag

Incidentally, I did my first off-road tri on the weekend - and do you think I actually practiced a mtb brick in the lead-up?? I certainly didn't - and good lord did I suffer because of it! Let me tell you here and now that a 'run-off' the Tri bike is world's apart to a 'run-off' the duallie

[Peterhorse]

the other factor i've noticed in the bike-run transition is cadence. i try to keep between 95-105 on the bike pretty much all the way. yet my run cadence is much slower at 80-85. i've noticed doing brick sessions and in events that the first 2k, i feel like i'm flying because the legs are pumping at a faster cadence still (kinda like when you lift your dog up out of teh water it's legs keep going? ).
downside is puffing like steam train for that first 2k before settling down to business. my first km has been teh fast on a few occasions for this reason.

same as miners, 1.5-2mins is about right but has been as high as 7-10mins on a bad day (when i went too hard on the bike). best difference for me was 42:58 (straight 10k) vs 44:xx in OLY tri last M'ba. Noosa last year was 50:48.

[Sorrento]

Peterhorse, you mentioned the cadence thing to me in response to an earlier post on my approach to training. I had kept that in mind all through my training and was happy to spin faster, I always made sure that in the last k or so I was using a different gear so that I could spin faster. During the first 37 or so kms of the cycle leg on Sunday I was spinning pretty fast. But for some reason (and it didn't even cross my mind at the time) I stood up and gound my way up the hills on the way from the freeway to the transition area and I didn't even think about spinning on the way down the hill. So I guess that's where the race experience comes in too, learning how to stick to plans...

[Goughy]

Actually, my mate who rode commented how many people he saw grinding big time up all the hills, even at the start.

Our saturday training we do some ride/run and swim/run bricks, as well as the odd tri. What I try to do is on my sunday rides I stick my runners outside and do a lap or two of my block which is about 1 mile around. Just to get used to the feeling.

My local tri club also runs a series of 6 short course tri's over spring/summer, and some duathlons during winter. I'll keep up doing them. And at 10bucks a race, it's good value.