32 replies to this topic

[pheidippides]

Tamsyn Lewis has been on the international athletic scene for many years and no doubt has recieved enough advice to fill an encyclopedia. When you consider Tamsyn"s 400 metre times they are comparable to her 800 metre competitors.The problem appears to be that on the international stage , over the two lap race those athletes making the Olympic final slow up approximately 4 seconds per lap compared to Tamsyn"s 7-8 seconds per lap.
Is the lack of endurance the reason for Tamsyn"s lack of success in Olympic competition where multifull rounds of competition are required. Pheidippides.

[bumcrackjack]

It is a lack of genetic ability.

She is simply not in the same ballpark as those girls to whom you refer

[StellaBella]

I'm a bit confused as to what this has to do with the Canberra Marathon... is Tamsyn running it?!

[run2work]

StellaBella, on Mar 26 2009, 11:48 AM, said:

I'm a bit confused as to what this has to do with the Canberra Marathon... is Tamsyn running it?!

Tamsyn has a friend who knew someone that was thinking of running the Canberra Marathon, so what better place to post than here

rtw

[Cato]

bumcrackjack, on Mar 26 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

It is a lack of genetic ability.

She is simply not in the same ballpark as those girls to whom you refer

Never the less, she is simply the "best" that we have in Australia.
Soon there will be a new breed of young Aussie runners that will beat her, but in the mean time I applaud her.

Cato

(I agree that this seems to be in the wrong forum)

Edited by Cato, 26 March 2009 - 12:29 PM.

[walker1st]

genetic ability ?

well each coach has limitations in understanding training principles understanding particular athlet and limitation in ability to match that stuff together,

but I would not call such a coaching limitations genetic ability ?

Tamsyn does the best with coaches she had and she has, it is good enough to colecting the national titles,
perhaps really the question is, what are the other girls and their coaches doing, so she can keep winning nationals so easy ?

[bruncle]

bumcrackjack, on Mar 26 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

It is a lack of genetic ability.

She is simply not in the same ballpark as those girls to whom you refer

I find that unlikely given her 400m times. It's much easier to build endurance than to build speed.

Does anyone know what she does in training?

[wunforfun]

bruncle, on Mar 26 2009, 04:42 AM, said:

It's much easier to build endurance than to build speed.

Echoing others' sentiments, the fundamental question regarding Tamsyn Lewis' performances is would she be better helped by improved speed or endurance?

I cringe at previous comments in which she's delighted in saying she's working on her 400 metre speed to help her 800's. Perhaps rather she's contented at the easy way out this provides!

Endurance training is hard work, and anyone who runs knows it! Far easier to work on speed and strength than endurance.

As already purported, Tamsyn's 400 metre speed is the same if not better than her rivals. What she needs is endurance, and lots of it! That means miles and miles of long easy running before track work.

How do I know? Because one of my charges had the same problem. He ran the same times as Tamsyn over 400 and 800 metres then plateaued- couldn't break 2 minutes for 800m, had genetic limitations on speed stopping him from being a top 400m runner and couldn't run 1500 metres full-stop. Ran the first lap of 800's in 59/60sec so often it became boring!   Then he trained as a distance athlete for a year, and came out jogging through the first lap of an 800metres in 57sec!

Tamsyn is one of Australia's best female track athletes- her nationals record shows that.   She is privileged to have been able to represent Australia so many times and perhaps this is enough.

But her publicised goal of making a world championship final will require a change of thought to be achieved.   The 400 metre hurdles may lead her to a final, but she cannot and will not match Jana Rawlinson with her natural strength and speed.

Better I would suggest to challenge her 800 metre nemesis and attack head on the 1:59 barrier by training for endurance.

[pheidippides]

wunforfun, you were the only contributor to this question re Tamsyn Lewis"s lack of success at the Olympic"s to hit the nail on the head, ie, lack of endurance. Thank you,Pheidippides.

[Tony123]

Tamsyn Manou set a new Aus record for the 600m last night, 1:25.7.  

Hopefully she has another 800m race coming up to get that A qualifier.  Be a shame if she misses out on the Olympics

[Eagle]

Encouraging time BUT she is quickly running out of time because:

Olympic Games qualification extended to 8 July

Athletics Australia can advise that the Australian Olympic Committee (AOC) have decided to extend the qualification period to 8 July, in line with the IAAF Olympic Games qualification pathway.

This extension date will only apply to athletes who are currently registered members of the Athletics Australia shadow team, which can be found here.

[Tony123]

I think she has an 800m race this weekend, maybe in Belgium.

[Eagle]

Fingers crossed for her. I wish her well. It would be a fitting end to a great and long career.

[Harryo]

Yes - good luck Tamsyn for your 800m race this weekend in Europe.  There is a great article by Len Johnson on the CR site regarding ger long term commitment and capability.

Must admit that reading this old thread and the query on her "genetic capability" is amusing given her parents were both Olympians - I think the issue is not her genes but perhaps the genes of those she is compting with.

Fingers crossed - she deserves a berth at London, but a berth earned is better than one litigated.

harry

[Grechy]

To perhaps answer some of the earlier questions about her training and about her endurance or lack of it, I do have some info that some might amusing.

In 2007 she ran the AV Tan Relays (An event which attracted a lot controversy due to other reasons). You would think that an Olympian in the 800m would be able to run a decent time for the Tan even if they never trained at all however to the surprise of many she finished with a time of 15.30 which is slower that most plodders can run the Tan! Yes I am not kidding her finishing time was 15.30 and she gave it everything she had.

For those not from Melbourne, the Tan is 3.8km. I ran it last year in 14.48 and I wasn't really all that fit. If I ran a 800m at that time I would have ran around 2.40 and so would most others who would run the Tan at that time would run 800m in a similar time. The fact that she ran slower for the Tan but runs so much quicker for 800m and perhaps even quicker for 400m does show that there is a definite lack of endurance. I am not sure if it has anything to do with her training but I would have thought that any Olympian would easily beat me regardless of what distance they specialise in.

Just some info that you might find interesting.

[Easy Tiger]

Grechy, on 06 July 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

To perhaps answer some of the earlier questions about her training and about her endurance or lack of it, I do have some info that some might amusing.

In 2007 she ran the AV Tan Relays (An event which attracted a lot controversy due to other reasons). You would think that an Olympian in the 800m would be able to run a decent time for the Tan even if they never trained at all however to the surprise of many she finished with a time of 15.30 which is slower that most plodders can run the Tan! Yes I am not kidding her finishing time was 15.30 and she gave it everything she had.

For those not from Melbourne, the Tan is 3.8km. I ran it last year in 14.48 and I wasn't really all that fit. If I ran a 800m at that time I would have ran around 2.40 and so would most others who would run the Tan at that time would run 800m in a similar time. The fact that she ran slower for the Tan but runs so much quicker for 800m and perhaps even quicker for 400m does show that there is a definite lack of endurance. I am not sure if it has anything to do with her training but I would have thought that any Olympian would easily beat me regardless of what distance they specialise in.

Just some info that you might find interesting.

I don't even think 1500m gives any indication of my 800m form let alone 3.8km. You should be happy you can tell your mates you ran faster than one of our all time greats, probably don't mention that it is a 400/800m girl in a 3.8km XC relay.

[Colin]

Easy Tiger, on 06 July 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I don't even think 1500m gives any indication of my 800m form let alone 3.8km. You should be happy you can tell your mates you ran faster than one of our all time greats, probably don't mention that it is a 400/800m girl in a 3.8km XC relay.

But none the less the point that Grechy was making was that any 2min 800m runner ought to 'jog' 3.8km in about 13min

I don't think there is any doubt that she is faster over 400m than 800m so her stated 'problem' is not speed, but endurance

[Tony123]

Colin, on 06 July 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Easy Tiger, on 06 July 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I don't even think 1500m gives any indication of my 800m form let alone 3.8km. You should be happy you can tell your mates you ran faster than one of our all time greats, probably don't mention that it is a 400/800m girl in a 3.8km XC relay.

But none the less the point that Grechy was making was that any 2min 800m runner ought to 'jog' 3.8km in about 13min

I don't think there is any doubt that she is faster over 400m than 800m so her stated 'problem' is not speed, but endurance

And that is how she runs her 800m.  The last few I have seen, she has gone through 400m in 56/57 secs and then blows up in the 2nd 400 running 66secs for a total time of 2:02/2:03.  I dont know why she doesnt try to run more even splits.  
Maybe the 2nd lap is always 66secs because of a lack of endurance, regardless of the first lap time.

[Easy Tiger]

I'm sure Tubby will be happy to verify if he sees this thread, when I raced 800m off 400m work I wouldn't have been able to run 4km if my life depended on it let alone do it in 13mins. I've raced a 1:47 guy in a 2km at West Met XC, he didn't break 7mins. I know a 1:49 guy who until 4 weeks ago had never run further than 800m ever...4km is a bloody long way if you haven't trained for it.

Does she really convert any worse than other 400/800m specialist females?

This season on the same night I saw her split 56 and 2:02, I split 59 and 1:59. thought she was too aggressive too, but now I suspect it might not matter as much as I thought as the next time she raced I believe she split 59 and 2:02. I hope she gets the 'A' and 85 obviously indicates she is capable, but 600 and 800 are very different for a 400/800m specialist.

[Grechy]

Easy Tiger, on 06 July 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I don't even think 1500m gives any indication of my 800m form let alone 3.8km. You should be happy you can tell your mates you ran faster than one of our all time greats, probably don't mention that it is a 400/800m girl in a 3.8km XC relay.

Come on... an Olympian is an Olympian and will have so much natural talent that they could beat me even if they were running backwards.

Jeff Risely is a 800/1500m runner. I bet if he raced 10km he would still go close to breaking 30 minutes (In 2008 he ran 18.10 for a 6km XC). Any elite athlete that good would normally be expected to hold their own over any distance, especially one thats only 3km longer than what they race at the Olympics.

I can tell you for a fact that there is no other runner that I know of who can run close to 2 minutes for 800m yet get beaten by me doing the Tan. Regardless of whether its a guy or a girl, I have never heard of anyone else who fades away so quickly as the distance gets longer.

I would bet my house that Kathy Freeman, Jana Pitman, Debbie Flintoff etc would have easily beaten me over anything less than 10km when they were in their heyday.

[Easy Tiger]

Grechy, on 06 July 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Easy Tiger, on 06 July 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I don't even think 1500m gives any indication of my 800m form let alone 3.8km. You should be happy you can tell your mates you ran faster than one of our all time greats, probably don't mention that it is a 400/800m girl in a 3.8km XC relay.

Come on... an Olympian is an Olympian and will have so much natural talent that they could beat me even if they were running backwards.

Jeff Risely is a 800/1500m runner. I bet if he raced 10km he would still go close to breaking 30 minutes (In 2008 he ran 18.10 for a 6km XC). Any elite athlete that good would normally be expected to hold their own over any distance, especially one thats only 3km longer than what they race at the Olympics.

I can tell you for a fact that there is no other runner that I know of who can run close to 2 minutes for 800m yet get beaten by me doing the Tan. Regardless of whether its a guy or a girl, I have never heard of anyone else who fades away so quickly as the distance gets longer.

I would bet my house that Kathy Freeman, Jana Pitman, Debbie Flintoff etc would have easily beaten me over anything less than 10km when they were in their heyday.

That'd be the dumbest bet ever!

[pjay]

<p>In a similar vein I remember talking to a Knox club member who I saw run a 65 second 400 metre race during a club training session at the Knox Athletics Track. He told me that for longer distance he would really struggle, for instance dropping to about 6 minute per km pace for a two kilometre race.

Edited by pjay, 06 July 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[Grechy]

Hmmmm interesting responses.

E.T. - Show me some history/stats and I would be happy to concede defeat. I know Kathy Freeman said some rubbish a few years back when she ran the GAR and said stuff like she had never run that far before and she would struggle however I thought that was all just to say what the sponsors wanted her to say.

PJ - Hmmm thats interesting. Then again I do view 800m as a bit different to 400m so Tamsin's 2007 Tan effort still has me scratching my head.

[KentlynTiger]

Tamsyn was the World indoor 800m Champion, and Mutola was in the race. Add to that Tamsyn LOOKS a lot better than most of her competitors.(overseas).
Her background is Sprinting (herself and DAD). Maybe 800m is her Max Distance.
I do agree more strength would have been nice but I also agree ( my opinion only ) , a first lap of 59secs followed by another 59 secs lap would give her a 1m58s.
And I think she would be happy with that.
I could never run with a body full of Lactic Acid so all of my PBs were run with even splits.
Tamsyn has been a great runner to watch (and I hope she isn't finished). It would have been great to see someone else leading some of those great races in Australia.
What an Honest Runner.

[Eagle]

Latest news:

http://www.theaustra...s-1226419414123

Just has to do 1.59.9. Go girl

[Tony123]

Tamsyn ran 3rd in 2:01.5, she went through 400m in 56sec.  Winning time was 1:56.76.

Whether she goes to London or not comes down to her appeal with the Court of arbitration of Sport.
Her argument is that she has a B qualifier, and that there are no other 800m runners therefore she should be allowed to go,

I wish her good luck, and hope she gets picked.

[Colin]

Easy Tiger, on 06 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I'm sure Tubby will be happy to verify if he sees this thread, when I raced 800m off 400m work I wouldn't have been able to run 4km if my life depended on it let alone do it in 13mins. I've raced a 1:47 guy in a 2km at West Met XC, he didn't break 7mins. I know a 1:49 guy who until 4 weeks ago had never run further than 800m ever...4km is a bloody long way if you haven't trained for it.

Does she really convert any worse than other 400/800m specialist females?

So ET, we are to believe that all you and those 1;47 guys did was 400m max? Never ran further than that in training? A 1:49 guy who has never ran further than the finish line? He should be training for OG right now because he will give Rudisha a shake, no kidding its not too late.
Seriously, I never broke 5min in 1,500m at school yet ran my first marathon in 3:32 having never run further than 7km before. I would say 42km is even bloody further when you haven't gone past 7km, but I was no elite. Later when I was running reasonably fast marathons (sub 2:30) I still could not beat 800/1,500m track runners over 5km or even flat 12km XC
In fact, in another example we had a road relay and with one runner short we put a 10.5sec 100m sprinter in to do the last leg of 8km with a sufficient lead- he ran under 32min and he had never run 8km before that. 8km is abloody long way for a 100m sprinetr, but to him, with that speed it was a jog.
As Tim Noakes speculates, all things being equal a person faster over 100m will beat another over every other distance--all other things being equal.

Grechy's premise is right, but as a bet not sound only because it is theoretical and you don't know whether those runners would have tried hard enough...but he is right in that Freeman et al should have beaten him with that 400m pace.

Well, back to Tamsyn, she ran 2:01 so it is unlikely they will automatically pick her and she hasn';t done anything to dispel the fact that she doesn't convert her faster shorter distance times, so her problem is not speed but endurance, and that is precisely the point Grechy made.

She is a nice girl, good looking (? oh, I know she is blonde), hard worker, Dad olympian etc, but they don't pick on those criteria.

Edited by Colin, 08 July 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[UnfitnessFanatic]

It would be interesting to see her pacing for the 3.8km Tan circuit, I wonder if she was leading through 400/800??  At the brisbane marathon last year a runner collapsed in my area, he said he was a 5000m track runner who was bet $1000 by his mates he couldn't do/finish a marathon.  I wonder also (given the fact he collapsed, though still finished) if he was leading the race through the first 5k.  As we all know as we push our distances out to the max pacing becomes very crucial, even if you are an olympian...

Edited by UnfitnessFanatic, 08 July 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Eagle]

So close. Easy to say after but just a second or so slower on the first lap might have got her there. Lets see what happens with the appeal

[Grechy]

Colin, on 08 July 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Easy Tiger, on 06 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I'm sure Tubby will be happy to verify if he sees this thread, when I raced 800m off 400m work I wouldn't have been able to run 4km if my life depended on it let alone do it in 13mins. I've raced a 1:47 guy in a 2km at West Met XC, he didn't break 7mins. I know a 1:49 guy who until 4 weeks ago had never run further than 800m ever...4km is a bloody long way if you haven't trained for it.

Does she really convert any worse than other 400/800m specialist females?

So ET, we are to believe that all you and those 1;47 guys did was 400m max? Never ran further than that in training? A 1:49 guy who has never ran further than the finish line? He should be training for OG right now because he will give Rudisha a shake, no kidding its not too late.
Seriously, I never broke 5min in 1,500m at school yet ran my first marathon in 3:32 having never run further than 7km before. I would say 42km is even bloody further when you haven't gone past 7km, but I was no elite. Later when I was running reasonably fast marathons (sub 2:30) I still could not beat 800/1,500m track runners over 5km or even flat 12km XC
In fact, in another example we had a road relay and with one runner short we put a 10.5sec 100m sprinter in to do the last leg of 8km with a sufficient lead- he ran under 32min and he had never run 8km before that. 8km is abloody long way for a 100m sprinetr, but to him, with that speed it was a jog.
As Tim Noakes speculates, all things being equal a person faster over 100m will beat another over every other distance--all other things being equal.

Grechy's premise is right, but as a bet not sound only because it is theoretical and you don't know whether those runners would have tried hard enough...but he is right in that Freeman et al should have beaten him with that 400m pace.

Well, back to Tamsyn, she ran 2:01 so it is unlikely they will automatically pick her and she hasn';t done anything to dispel the fact that she doesn't convert her faster shorter distance times, so her problem is not speed but endurance, and that is precisely the point Grechy made.

She is a nice girl, good looking (? oh, I know she is blonde), hard worker, Dad olympian etc, but they don't pick on those criteria.

Thats an interesting post to say the least. I am glad to see that someone knows the difference between natural ability and lack of natural ability. I just snuck under 4 hours for a marathon after training for about 6 months with 5-6 runs of more than 30km. The fact that you ran 3.32 with having never ran more than 7km shows that you always had the potential to be a top marathoner. Someone like me with never go close to 2.30.

As for the situations where top sprinters run decent times for longer distances without ever having run that far, I think sometimes they tell porkys about what they have really done in training. We all know that not everyone is honest about what they really do or do not do so although your comments make a fair bit of sense, I wouldn't believe everything you hear.

Noakes' theory that a runner who is faster over 100m will be able to run faster over every other distance is a bit unusual. I don't think Cliff Young would have been able to beat Ussain Bolt in a sprint! But seriously even with more equal athletes there is a stage where some get better with distance. If you look at Tiger Boy (Tony Dell, no relation to Easy Tiger) if we did the same training, he would destroy me over anything short then when we get to about 5-10km we become a bit more equal with him still in front. Once we get towards the Half Marathon, I would then be a chance to beat him but when it comes to the full marathon, I would have him covered no matter what. I am simply a slow twitch runner who is hopeless in a sprint.

To answer UF's question about pacing, the Tan Relays are an Athletics Victoria annual relay and she did not run first leg so its impossible to say where she was in terms of her place because by the time she would have began running, the others runners were all spread out. Her inclusion in her club's division one team drew a lot of criticism as there was a girl who ran in in Sandringham's division two team but ran faster than all the girls in their division one team and was more than 2 minutes quicker than Tamsyn which was major embarrassment for her club and for AV in general.

Also something that I don't really agree with. I don't think she's really good looking. Yes she has done a few fancy bikini photos and all that but I wouldn't look twice if I saw her on the street without knowing who she was.

[UnfitnessFanatic]

Grechy, on 08 July 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

To answer UF's question about pacing, the Tan Relays are an Athletics Victoria annual relay and she did not run first leg so its impossible to say where she was in terms of her place because by the time she would have began running, the others runners were all spread out. Her inclusion in her club's division one team drew a lot of criticism as there was a girl who ran in in Sandringham's division two team but ran faster than all the girls in their division one team and was more than 2 minutes quicker than Tamsyn which was major embarrassment for her club and for AV in general.

Also something that I don't really agree with. I don't think she's really good looking. Yes she has done a few fancy bikini photos and all that but I wouldn't look twice if I saw her on the street without knowing who she was.

Ok no worries, would still be interested to see her pacing for the race to see how hard she went out.  A friend of mine and my wife's came over an hour or so ago and I actually brought this up with her (she is an elite long distance runner).  She laughed that anyone would think just because she is an olympian would mean she can run a quick lap of the tan.  I must admit I also thought she would be able to run a decent time.

I also agree with the second comment and think our latest inclusion (a certain steeple chase runner) into the team is much hotter and I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed on here yet

[Grechy]

UnfitnessFanatic, on 08 July 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I also agree with the second comment and think our latest inclusion (a certain steeple chase runner) into the team is much hotter and I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed on here yet

Valid point! Perhaps someone should start a new thread

[Colin]

Grechy, on 08 July 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Noakes' theory that a runner who is faster over 100m will be able to run faster over every other distance is a bit unusual. I don't think Cliff Young would have been able to beat Ussain Bolt in a sprint!

Yes, it is applicable to "all things being equal". But you are right, Cliff Young would not have beaten Usain Bolt, but the latter if inclined to take a Syd-Mel race seriously and trained for it, would have found it a doddle against Young (the running alone, not amount of time without sleep etc)...so that example not falsifying his hypothesis