13 replies to this topic

[RodN]

Hi All,

I am a new poster so before I get to the question I thought I'll provide a bit of background

I've been back into running for about 12 months now. What started as a weight loss campaign has turned into an absolute joy. Not only have I lost weight but I have a newly revived hobby

Anyway what got me here was after several runs with a mate we decided that we should sign up for Run 4 the kids. We continued to train without much thought to it and my fitness level increased with primarily running around Princess park from 2 to 4 laps (6.4 to 12.8k) 2 to 3 times per week with swims and gym interspersed between. So come race time I felt confident of beating my 2008 time of 1:11 as my lead up to that race was pathetic.

However I stupidly didn't put any thought into the race itself and made several critical errors leading up to and on the day, here they are (don't laugh!):
- Bought new shoes 2 weeks out which had too higher arch, result was major blistering on one foot which flared up during the race
- Lead up training around the very flat princess park - the hills (which aren't really hills) of run4tk killed me
- Went out on the race like a rat up a drain pipe (doing about 4 mins per k for first 9 k's) and subsequently hit the wall with a total depletion of glucose with 5 k's to go, doh doh doh.
- shoelaces came untied, each shoe, TWICE
- discovered, during the race, that I simply cannot drink out of cups while running

Ok you can laugh

These I guess for you all are common mistakes that I have painfully found out myself. End result was a 1:09 but this is very far from past "fitness peaks" in my life where I have recorded 36 minute 10ks on hilly tracks (this was about a decade ago though). I feel I have much more in me. In my current steady state sessions I achieve 4:30 m/k's with a very calm heart rate of 160bpm and I'm 39 so I feel there is much more in the tank, or at least I hope so!

SO my resolve in training for Run Melbourne is to get my race day preparations right and avoid all of those stupid mistakes as well as undertake the far more significant Half marathon length.

Since then I've been reading like crazy and your collective wisdom on these wonderful web pages has helped me beyond description. I feel I have a pretty good training program now that I am sticking to like glue with tempo/speed/recovery and long runs all taking me towards a hoped for 1:40:00 time for run Melbourne and possibly beyond that to the Melbourne Marathon (or at least a better time for the half).

What I would like to do that I can't really achieve from reading and practicing alone is improve my running technique. I have discovered that I was heel/toe leading up to run4thekids and after that race switched to an even (or ball of foot) landing. This has improved my calf strength and recovery times enormously, soreness from running now is much more muscle oriented rather than joint oriented before the switch.

What is troubling me though is that it still seems a bit awkward and I don't "feel" that I am smooth enough yet. The only time I feel smooth is when I'm doing my sprints/v02 sessions but something happens in the less intensely paced runs where I fell I lose that smoothness. I am working hard on a "chi like" style keeping my hips straight and bending at the angles with a relaxed upper body including still shoulders and head. Don't really feel graceful yet though.

So my question, sorry for the detour, is there anything I should be doing to improve my "style"? Perhaps look for a trainer to help or should I just give it some time and let the style "come" which I will find hard to do without seeing myself? This gate is something not spoken about so much as the training programs and race results on the web (or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place).

There is a personal trainer at Brunswick City Baths who has a history of cross country running and does a lot of work with patrons down at princess park but before going to him I wondered if you all knew of anyone near the northern suburbs, or anyone reading for that matter, that might be able to help me tidy up my running technique to help with my efficiency and pleasure of this hobby.

Looking forward to any hints or people you might be able to suggest.

Regards
Rod

[maryclaire]

Hi RodN, welcome to CR. It sounds like you are sorting yourself out pretty well and learning fom mistakes that most of us have made at one time or another. I can't really answer your question except to make a couple of comments.

You say that in the past you have run a 36 min 10k. And yet you are now trying to "tweak" your running style. I would suggest that if you have run that sort of time in the past then your natural running style is probably not a problem.

Secondly, (and here comes my very subjective opinion), be careful about simply trying to change your technique without professional assistance. I have suffered from Plantar Fasciitis for over a year now and as a heel striker, I did a lot of reading on "correct" technique and efficient running. I deliberately changed to a mid-forefoot strike, thinking that this would take load off the heel. At first this was great - my cadence picked up and speed improved without any higher heart rate. Like you, it took a while for the calves to get used to it. But after about 6 weeks of this running, in which I ran a 15k race, I developed an intense pain in the top of the foot. Luckily I had a strong sense that this was a bone problem and not soft tissue (despite opinions of 2 physios, a myotherapist and a chiro - but that's a whole other story) and rested up immediately. I haved managed to avoid a strss fracture, and have only incurred a stress injury to one of the bones in my foot. I assume if I had continued to train it would have led to a fracture. But it still means a break in training which is driving me mad (I can return slowly at the end of this week).

I also like the look of chi running and other styles. However I have learnt that hard way that sometimes was can over analyse what is a natural motion. Look at how children run - they don't need any gait analysis, and they run for pure joy. If you're running well and not getting injured, then maybe just leave things be for a while.

Enjoy.

[CoolRunning Admin]

I just chanegd the title of the thread as I thought trainers refered to running shoes!

Kevin

[Tiger Boy]

Rod,
A running coach is probably the best thing to look at whether you should change your technique. YOu sound like a fairly decent runner at the moment, and one that was very good in his younger days.
There are plenty of athletics clubs around, and most, if not all, have coaches.
You would be welcome at my club, Richmond Harriers, but as you mentioned Brunswick, assuming you are in that area, somewhere like Coburg Harriers may be closer for you. They have a great coach there, and quite a good squad, ranging from the very good, to the beginner.

[HillsAths1]

Rod any club, would be happy to have you train with them and also race with your past and goal times.

As Tiger Boy suggests go to the local club, see if it what you are looking for, if not try another.

In regards to technique, you can change your running technique to make you more efficient and reduce the number of injuries, but as suggested also that sometimes your natural technique is ok but may just require some minor adjustments.

There are very very few elite runners who do not have a coach(yes please dont give the list of runners who dont as the list who do have will far out weigh), sometimes the coach is not just a person who sets schedules etc but someone to talk about training, diet, races etc, this all helps to prepare a runner for a race.

Disclaimer I am a coach and suggest that most people should have one!!!

[RodN]

Hi all,

Thank you very much for the responses. MaryClare and HillsAths you are correct I have a tendency to over analyse things so will take it easy and not try and adjust too much too fast. I had pace work last night and not over analysing but keeping things in mind already helped alot as I was alot more relaxed about my style I believe I got a bit more out of the workout.

I have the Sri Chinmoy 15k on the weekend which I've put in for a testing of my pacing so will see how I recover after that which is my first time trial since Run4TK so we'll see how the newer style goes.

Tigerboy also for the advice on coaches - I will try Coburg Harriers and perhaps even Melbourne Uni where I train at lunch.

It is funny as people don't even hesitate in sports like tennis, football, basketball, etc in getting a coach but for some reason in running unless you are super competitive it is not normal which is kinda strange?

Regards
Rod

[walker1st]

Hi Rod,

Coburg Harriers, the single most important athletic club around MEL

disclaimer - I do need them for their organizing of 24H and some short funruns.

Yes I agree on importance of the coach, but a good coach, not just a coach.

coaching license can be get in a single weekend, additional level in 1 day...

or You can study the stuff and become coach Yourself, not via official system...

I am suspicious about statement on running out of glucose in 9x4 = 36 minutes,
how is that possible or what do You mean by that.
with normal diet in days prior, even the unfit and untrained have enough glycogen for at least 90 minutes.

so You either did multiday fasting or You had sweet drinks or sweet snacks and created
strong insuline response, quite common to runners to eat or drink sweets before start in some panic state thinking that calories will run them faster or longer.

If none of teh above, than it was simply running in anaerobic zone, which could not be sustained for 1 hour and once You saturated You had to slow down to repay the oxygen debt.

perhaps teh training is mostly in anaerobic zone as well ?

do You run short fast session in different shoes than the slow longer sessions ?
that is also common, proper runninmg style in light shoes, and than for longer stuff bulky high heels simply do not allow any serious biomechanics.

disclaimer : I am coach with qualification and experience from europe, here practicing only outside the club or the system, but taking athlets occasionaly for short term periods.

[Colin]

Rod,

As a person who has run 36min 10km, you are already a better performer than probably 95% of posters here, so they probably may need advice from you rather than the other way.

Just because you tried to relive your past and go out at 4min pace, then 'died' doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your style. The amount of misinformation about the reality of foot strike, from coaches, magazines and web sites is alarming. People are trying to invent something that occurs naturally.
If you were able to run 36min 10km before, then I would guess that you already have a good style, which other people may want to copy

HillsAths1, on Apr 22 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

There are very very few elite runners who do not have a coach

RodN, on Apr 23 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

It is funny as people don't even hesitate in sports like tennis, football, basketball, etc in getting a coach but for some reason in running unless you are super competitive it is not normal which is kinda strange?

Yes..elites have coaches, but most of them already displayed that talent or performance before they had a coach.
Unlike the other sports, running is a natural thing. If you were abandoned in the wild as a baby you'd still be running with a good style, and running well....but your tennis will be crap.

The majority of weekend warriors underperform because they over complicate things.

Just run...

cheers

[Stweeve]

G'day Rod,

Glad to hear you getting back into running. It sounds like you've got the natural ability to run some really good times if you've hit a 36min 10k previously.

OK, as for coaching, I can't recommend it highly enough. I finished last year hitting 40:00 - 41:00 10k's and have now dropped that by about 2 mins post 4 months of solid training. I train with Paul Bryce from Sporting Spirit. He runs after work sessions at Princes Park, which would suit you! The group I train with are great, but if I had one minor complaint, it's that I'm the quickest in the group, so I don't really get challenge I need to push me forward. Regardless, Paul is great, and has been a big help in getting my speeds up.

Check out Sporting Spirits details here: http://www.sportingspirit.com.au/

Princes Park is where I do most of my work, so if you're ever keen to run with a partner, give me a shout. Always keen to run with someone close to my speed. I'll also be at the Princes Park Sri Chinmoy event this weekend if you wanted to catch up!

[HillsAths1]

Colin, on Apr 22 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

If you were abandoned in the wild as a baby you'd still be running with a good style, and running well...

Too true otherwise you would be dinner!!!!

[RodN]

Stweeve, on Apr 25 2009, 12:14 AM, said:

G'day Rod,

Check out Sporting Spirits details here: http://www.sportingspirit.com.au/

Princes Park is where I do most of my work, so if you're ever keen to run with a partner, give me a shout. Always keen to run with someone close to my speed. I'll also be at the Princes Park Sri Chinmoy event this weekend if you wanted to catch up!

Hi steve, this is indeed perfect for me! I work in Carlton and often run home through PP and it is my home track. Thanks for the advice I'll follow it up for sure. I have seen some running groups there. Very happy to catch up for a run. I sometimes do lunchtime tempos, weekend tempo's most regularly and after work steady state sessions there. I have tried training elsewhere now too as I think I need some more hills in my work.

I am not *quite* at 40 yet but will be there by the end of the year body permitting, I agree it's good to have a challenge there are a few 'rabbits' that run around PP. I have a couple of irish mates that could give you a bit of a push who come out around PP at nights.

walker1st, on Apr 23 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

I am suspicious about statement on running out of glucose in 9x4 = 36 minutes,

If none of teh above, than it was simply running in anaerobic zone, which could not be sustained for 1 hour and once You saturated You had to slow down to repay the oxygen debt.

Walker1st you are correct I think I had my terminology wrong. I think might have just been the exhaustion of the oxygen debt needing replacement. I was fine enough just had to slow to a crawl to complete the race. I am determined that this won't happen again and am working hard on my 'race strategies'.

Colin, on Apr 23 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

Yes..elites have coaches, but most of them already displayed that talent or performance before they had a coach.
Unlike the other sports, running is a natural thing. If you were abandoned in the wild as a baby you'd still be running with a good style, and running well....but your tennis will be crap.

The majority of weekend warriors underperform because they over complicate things.

Just run...

cheers

Colin yes thanks for the advice. Since then I have toned down my conscious attempts to land mid-foot which I think I was overdoing and feel smoother now. I've also noticed that I can drop my heart rate a few BPM's by relaxing my style and not thinking too hard about the mid-foot landing so am going to continue to just enjoy myself and not overthink it.

[walker1st]

RodN, on Apr 25 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

I think might have just been the exhaustion of the oxygen debt needing replacement. I was fine enough just had to slow to a crawl to complete the race. I am determined that this won't happen again and am working hard on my 'race strategies'.

it remainds me of a guy doing various marathon statistics on Slovakian marathon site
and doing ranking of runners from each race by the evenes of the splits,
so You got first if the first half and second hald is exactly the same - master of the even pace

and than second ranking for best negative split - how much faster is second half vs first half
master of negative splits.

[LongDistancePictures]

Prefaced by a lot of disclaimers about how everyone who has posted knows a whole shedload more about running and training than me, I'd add this. I've been running for 10 years - really slowly and badly with a form that makes Quasimodo look like a catwalk model. But I've spent the last few months putting a lot of work into upper body and core strength - particularly my transverse abdominals - and I feel amazing for it. My form has been better, I'm much lighter in my tread, a much more natural flow to my stride, all feels so much easier (well, some days....). It's not new, I know, but what but what you described struck a chord with me, so thought I'd chip in.

Have fun!

Sue

[RodN]

LongDistancePictures, on Apr 28 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

Prefaced by a lot of disclaimers about how everyone who has posted knows a whole shedload more about running and training than me, I'd add this. I've been running for 10 years - really slowly and badly with a form that makes Quasimodo look like a catwalk model. But I've spent the last few months putting a lot of work into upper body and core strength - particularly my transverse abdominals - and I feel amazing for it. My form has been better, I'm much lighter in my tread, a much more natural flow to my stride, all feels so much easier (well, some days....). It's not new, I know, but what but what you described struck a chord with me, so thought I'd chip in.

Have fun!

Sue

Hi Sue,

Can I ask what exercises have you been doing for transverse abdominals?

I've also relaxed a bit about being too technical with my stride and am feeling much more relaxed on the runs now.

Regards
Rod