36 replies to this topic

[Freesoul]

Why don't women and men run the same distances in cross country?

Is cross country the last bastion of gender inequality in sport?

How can change occur if IAAF have World XC women and men running different distances? There is a flow-on effect to national, state and local events, even school cross country.

Why aren't women (and men) jumping up and down in protest? Is tradition getting in the way of common sense?

Does anyone have any ideas about how I can jump up and down in protest? Do I just write a single letter to my state athletics authority? Get a petition going? Refuse to run in the women's races? Run in the men's races?

Thanks for your ideas,
Disillusioned female cross country runner.

[Emrun]

Dunno, probably for the same reason the women play 3 sets of tennis and not 5.

As a participant in the Aths Vic XCR season I haven't really given it much thought, the option is always there for women to fill out a mens team (from Div 3 down I believe) and therefore run the mens distance.

Personally, coming back from a couple of weeks off I was much happier running 4km around Larnder Park than 8km yesterday, I'll also be much happier running 6km around Eastern Park later in the year, then cheering on the blokes as they run 16km!

This is my 3rd season and I am happy with the XC distances I run as a female. I will train hard and give my all to the best 8km I can run, just as the guys will for 12km, I won't feel that my effort is any less, despite the shorter distance and don't see there is a need to change the status quo.

[DistanceRunner]

It's not clear to me that women and men running different distances in their respective XC competitions is necessarily biased against women. Perhaps it would be so if a longer distance always equates with better.

In XC it's purely about the competition within each race - you can't really compare from course to course, or even really from race to race on the same course (given highly variable conditions), so the specifc distance is irrelevant from the point of view of records.

By the way, XC is not unique - in swimming the Olympic distance is 800m for women and 1500m for men.

If you want to change then I would think taking it up with the national assocation would be the way to go, and through them the IAAF.

[glenda]

If your ruling body allows it, just run in the longer races. We can here in Qld if we want. Probably won't score points for your club though. In times long ago we used to run the same distances..I'm rather glad they changed it...it's hard enough anyway.

[ScamBullant]

It may balance things out to note that in the NSWCHS atheltics championships the girls sprint is 200m when the boys is only 100m. Then again it may not. All I know is the girls in my classes at school blew up when the boys only had to run half the distance. Noting that for most of my class 200m is endurance.

Edited by ScamBullant, 10 May 2009 - 07:42 PM.

[southy]

I have been racing cross country for many years, local & state and national. It's one time of the year when I am truly happy that I am a female competitor and not male (therefore my distance is 8k not 12k). 12 km cc is a long long ways, much harder than 12k on the road.
The distance for females when I was in uni was 3 miles (4.8k), in highschool 3.2k (both too short IMO). For a long time it was 6k here in Australia (a bit short still). Somewhere around 15 years ago it changed to 8km (5 miles) as a compromise between those who wanted 6k and those who wanted 10k.
I'm happy with things as they are!
There is nothing to stop you entering the mens races!
In juniors the girls and boys race the same distance until the U18s, then the boys go to 6k and the girls stay at 4k. In the U20s the boys go to 8k and the girls to 6k. For most of the juniors that is far enough. Most of them hate it the first year as they go into a new agegroup (it seems so far).

[DontStop]

Guess we'd better change the 100m hurdles into the 110 hurdles. Make them higher too. 400m hurdles will need to go up a few notches as well.

Heptathlon will need to add three events and become the decathlon. Is the shot heavier for men than women? Probably.

But yeah, in general I agree that there's no reason why these things are the way they are, other than tradition. But I'm not sure if it's such a big deal... I think it's much more important that women run the same distances on the track (because times are easily compared) but in XC I reckon it's the place you run that is everything.

As a guy, I couldn't care less if the long course was 10, 11 or 12 from any given week. It's not like I have a 12 XC PB... because every course is so different, there's just no point.

Actually, I lie. By the 9k mark, I generally care VERY DEEPLY about it... and wish like buggery that it was only 10k and not 12.

[Tiger Boy]

Dontstop - Mens Shot Put and Hammer - 7.26kg, Womens - 4kg
Mens Discus - 2kg, Womens 1kg
Mens javelin 800g, Women - 600g
Mens High Hurdles 106.7cm, women 84cm
Mens Long Hurdles 91.4, women 76.2 - same for steeple.

As a bloke, I suppose I know that we are always running the longer distance, but it is only for XC. Our road races here are all the same length.
Don't know why, tradition maybe? I think it harps back a bit to when women were not encouraged, or even welcome to run, and they've gradually eased them into the distances. It was only 1984 (I think) when women first ran a marathon at Olympic Level, and I think (although I could be wrong) that last year was the first Olympic Steeple for women. Pole Vault, (and Hammer?) are relatively new I think. Remember that women only had a 3000m event instead of a 5000m until relatively recent times.
I have heard that a decath. is coming in for women, they started off wiyh pentathlon, then upped it to heptathlon, so it seems things are changing.
Mind you, I don't think too many of the girls in my club will be putting their hands up for 16km at Geelong, they'll be sitting down with Emruns watching us blokes go round and round. So possibly at this stage, if there is not a lot of support from enough women to increase the distance, the ruling bodies will leave things be.

[Freesoul]

Next time I run a cross country I will visualize soft pillows.

[sunny1]

20 or so years ago (maybe even more now!) I ran a beach mile, as part of a surf life saving carnival. Although I came 2nd and was the first female, there was no recognition for me. No 2nd prize and no 1st women's prize. Only a first overall prize. I believe that things have changed in surf life saving now. But, sometimes I am glad that women are recognised differently. It might have been nice to get something, other than just chucking at the end, for that run.

[walker1st]

tennis 3 sets for ladies is actualy controversial.
They mamage to get teh same proze money as men but only have to play 3 sets for it,
so men actualy see this as being ineuqlity for them - to play 5 stes to get the same $$$.

XC was traditionaly used as a training as wel as testing of earobic base period after winter,
and was for different groups of runners - distance runners (5,10,marathon) at about 12km
and for middle distance (800,1500,steaple) at about 6km distance, teh national XC championship decades back in europe will serve national coach as teh feedback for quality of winter training of individual runners competing against each other at longer than their race distance (ok fioget the marathoner here).

the number of women in running was so small, that it was not possible to stage 2 races and have enough entries, so 1 race only, and as the most women were middle distance anyway, women had the short distance for XC.

Thats for tradition.

Recently teh training methods are all over the place, training is anaerobic all year round, racing for $$$ all year round, so it all lost tghe meaning really.
also everybody could travel for races and training camps, so there is no typical winter training period and no need to race XC in soft terrains, mud etc.

Track are synthetic and road races everywhere, the XC lost their purpose in my view.

female maratoner or long distance runenr can test her fitness anytime at any distance at various road races, there are mountain races, long course mountain championships etc.


looking at the issue from different angle - decades back, my wife has entered many races at men long distance to protest of the organizers, some other females jump in and enetered teh long stuff too, I remeber some small fun run RD who in desparation become histerical and stated to scream - all women are going to be enetered at short distance and I do not care how many laps will each of You run, we wil make the result list from crossing the first 2 laps.

Most ladies did run 6 laps - the same as men, and next year, there was officialy same distance women category as well as short fitness options for those not so fit.
many experiences like this, many RD changed their womens distancies within few years.

part of the reason women voted to run longer against the wishes of the RD was, that they were irritated to compete agains school girls who were anaerobicaly tortured at schools and athletics clubs so female runners had no chance of placing at ridiculous shrot distancies, while school girsl had no courage or experience to run few kms more.


from some comments it seems to me that XC competitors just wanna run flat out in anaerobic mode or at their treshold state, so shorter the distance, easier for them.
That completely beats the original purpose of the XC racing.

My view is that XC should be run on a hilly and soft surface circuit, and the race should be 2 hours race, when teh leader cross teh finish line after 2 hours it is the bell and last lap to everybody.

so regardless of conditions, weather, course difficulty etc, the race is guaranteed to be about 2 hours all the time.

[DontStop]

2 hours XC? That'd be about 24k for your average club runner, depending on the course.

Hmmm... not sure if too many people would be into that. But I take your point that it makes a lot of sense for XC to be run at a slower pace, and hence a longer distance.

But I really don't like the idea of it being time-based. I can see why you'd come to that, because you do 24hr races, etc, where that's the norm... but personally I think it would be pretty deflating to have time called on me during a race. Most runners are wired to run to distance, not time.

12k XC is, in my opinion, the hardest race to run because you're going anaerobic... but it's still long enough to require endurance... and the uneven footing makes it harder to get a rhythm. Certainly, I can still vividly remember the Australian Universities XC Championships - I've never known pain like it before, or since. Even that 10,000m Zatopek race when the Nylex clock said 42 degrees was nothing on that.

[southy]

35 years ago (I was about 17), I ran a fun run, a 10 mile. There was no race for women at all. They were not supposed to run that far. The race director was also my coach, so he 'let me' run in the mens race. No recognition at all, in fact begrudgingly accepted by the powers to be (not my coach though, he was all for women having the same rights as men, but was unfortunately only one voice).
He also let me run on the boys school cross country team, and the boys track team (2 mile). Until I beat too many of the boys and the other schools complained and threatened until I had to stop.
The furthest distance in most track meets for women when I was in uni was a half mile (800m). The womens cross country distance was 3 miles.
Then uni 'let me' train with the mens cross country team & distance squad (Title IX). Only problem was I trained like a man and my body could not cope with the volume and broke down. They had no idea how to train a female athlete.
The race directors tried to throw Kathyrn Switzer out of a marathon for being female.

Yes, things have come along ways baby.

[walker1st]

DontStop, on May 12 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

But I really don't like the idea of it being time-based. I can see why you'd come to that, because you do 24hr races, etc, where that's the norm... but personally I think it would be pretty deflating to have time called on me during a race. Most runners are wired to run to distance, not time.

I ma not trying to change Your personal preferencies, but if You look at it practicaly and from the point of view of RD, logistics etc,

If You make it a distance - say 20km, some would be done in 90 minutes some in 3 hours.

The slow person would not enter simply for not wanting to be the one holding the organizers back,
being left alone on the course etc etc

and the fast runners will run only half of time compared to slow runners, which is kinda beating the logic of it all.

so if the elite will do 25km in 2H and the last slow coach only 12km in 2 hours it is all good and everybody is happy and slow runners have incentive to enter.

less important races could be made only 90 minutes or 75 minutes. but the same time for everybody regardless of sex age or abilities

Edited by walker1st, 12 May 2009 - 11:47 AM.

[Leofisio]

walker1st, on May 12 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

tennis 3 sets for ladies is actualy controversial.
They mamage to get teh same proze money as men but only have to play 3 sets for it,
so men actualy see this as being ineuqlity for them - to play 5 stes to get the same $$$.

Just clarifying... 5 sets are now just played for Grand Slams and Davis Cup. All remaining tournaments are 3 sets for the reasons explained above (not fair to play twice as much for the same $$).

Leo

[DontStop]

Being a back of the pack straggler doesn't seem to put too many slow runners off doing run runs though. And I can't imagine anyone who isn't at least a half decent runner WANTING to run XC for two hours anyway.

Anyway - I'm not sure we're arguing on the same page here anyway. In my experience, 12k XC is an event that can be tackled by both middle and long distance runners... hence, at least at school, it's a bit of a one-size-fits-all. If you believe that it should be a part of a training program for people who want to do 2 hour slowish hill runs, then fair enough. But I think that's just one way of looking at it, and it's neither right or wrong.

[Paul Every]

Freesoul, on May 10 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

Why don't women and men run the same distances in cross country?

Why aren't women...jumping up and down in protest? Is tradition getting in the way of common sense?

Freesoul, by all means jump up and down in protest, but just make sure you don't jump as high as a man would.

[Paul Every]

Tiger Boy, on May 11 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

It was only 1984 (I think) when women first ran a marathon at Olympic Level

Moscow 1980 - longest Women's event was 3000m.

LA 1984 - Women's marathon introduced.

Seoul 1988 - Women's 10 000m introduced.

[Freesoul]

Thanks for the background on the history of XC, Walker 1st. Now I can see how the sport evolved.

I agree with you that short XC races are mainly anaerobic, and that a lot of people miss the point of the purpose of XC (HTFU, you soft pillows).

I reckon that there should be a short course option for the anaerobics and less fit (male and female in the same race), and a long course for the true believers (male and female in the same race). This way, the program for the day is unchanged (ie same number of races).

I can see from your comments on the history and present state of XC that with all the options (road races etc) not many people care much about XC, hence the reason for the status quo.

The fact that we've come a long way since the 80s (in other areas of running) just fuels my fire. Why hasn't XC kept up with the progress?

[southy]

Some states & clubs do have a short course and long course race for champs. Usually for women its a 4/5k option and an 8k option.
Here is the ACT we almost always have a short/long option in our club races but only 1 race distance at state champs level.

[EnduranceMachine]

The reason why the distance are different for males and females is the same reason they don't race each other.

Edited by Finny3, 13 May 2009 - 12:58 PM.

[DontStop]

How's that finny?

Men and women don't race each other at the elite level because a man would win every single time.

But the idea of women racing shorter distances to men stems from the days when people genuinely believed that women were too delicate to compete in long distance events.

Splitting the genders is a fact-based outcome: it's a fact that all things being equal, a man will be faster than a woman.

Making women run shorter distances is a 19th Century myth-based outcome: based on the belief that women are too delicate to run distance, and will either faint or lose the ability to bear children (or some other such nonsense) if they try.

They couldn't be more different.

[walker1st]

how about the demand creates the product >

if 1 women enters a long men race, ignoring teh shorter distance, few more might follow.

If it catches up, great.

It can put pressure via club structure.

woman entering long course with men would not score points for club of course if not running short stuff as well.


women can tell the club, to libby at AA level to make the course teh same lenght as men, or otherwise they would not score points for club.
sounds bit like a blackmailing maybe, but just might work.

runners need to understand, that club is there for them, not the other way around, runner is not
doing the sport so the club can count the points while runner is forced run races he/she really do not want to race

[swaggerer]

Freesoul, on May 10 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

Why don't women and men run the same distances in cross country?

Is cross country the last bastion of gender inequality in sport?

How can change occur if IAAF have World XC women and men running different distances? There is a flow-on effect to national, state and local events, even school cross country.

Why aren't women (and men) jumping up and down in protest? Is tradition getting in the way of common sense?

Does anyone have any ideas about how I can jump up and down in protest? Do I just write a single letter to my state athletics authority? Get a petition going? Refuse to run in the women's races? Run in the men's races?

Thanks for your ideas,
Disillusioned female cross country runner.

Given that the women are now running the marathon at all levels and most of the old myths have been discredited, it only makes sense to pull the distances in line with the men.

I am an old codger and we get a similar discrimination (a bit strong???) for State Master's Champs. Also they no longer race over twelve k at interclub up here in Q. Not at all.

Given that interclub competition are mixed with the results separate, I think, the extra competition and distance may help to produce faster women (and set old Swagger back on he heels).

I can't see why females can't also have 12k race at World CC. I'd like to see IAAF endorse it.

It's a sensible request.

Cheers,

Swagger.

Edited by swaggerer, 13 May 2009 - 03:46 PM.

[swaggerer]

Get a load of this official document from 1963 girls. It is fair dinkum. I hope moderators understand that it shows pretty well that gender discrimination was not so long ago embeded in Aussie culture. Many women would agree that it still underlies a lot of decisions in regards to women (such as CC distances) and attitudes towards women today.

 DFATPg1.pdf   948.91K   36 downloads

Edited by swaggerer, 26 June 2009 - 04:07 PM.

[HillsAths1]

Swagerer, I have to agree that it seems to be a bit unfair that at the championship levels the distances drop off for both the older competitors and the women.

The NSW state champs recently held at Nowra the open men ran 12km, open women 8km(which was same distance for 55 and 65+ men) However the 55+ women only had to run 6km.

But again it comes back to the same arguments that women tennis players have that they want to be paid the same prize money even though they only play for best of 3 sets.

[HillsAths1]

Swagerer, I have had a read of the doc that you uploaded, and after I fell about the floor laughing and got back to my laptop, I must say it makes for a great read. I hope that man who wrote that never let his wife read his memos.

[Bellthorpe]

Wives didn't read memos.

[glenda]

That is so funny...and off topic swaggerer but I was out mt nebo way this morning running the trails and I came across a shelter shed with Swagger written on...can you shed any light on this?

[Bellthorpe]

I understand Swagger likes to sing as he runs, especially on his recovery runs.

One of his favourite tunes is 'Gimme Shelter'.

I guess the gods heard him ...

[serena]

swaggerer, on Jun 26 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

Get a load of this official document from 1963 girls. It is fair dinkum.

DFATPg1.pdf

I love the bit about the worry that a female commissioner "would not stay young and attractive forever and later on could well become a problem."

Love it. Here's to becoming a 'problem'.

serena

[swaggerer]

glenda, on Jun 27 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

That is so funny...and off topic swaggerer but I was out mt nebo way this morning running the trails and I came across a shelter shed with Swagger written on...can you shed any light on this?

Swagger

Cheers,
Swaggerer.

[southy]

Well I just did the NSW CC course at Nowra too and I was very happy that I only had to go around that course twice, not 3 times. It was enough of a challenge to get up that hill down the back twice !
8K CC is enough for me IMHO, and I am female. If I want to do a 12k race or a 16k race or a HM, then I will go find one.
I guess they could compromise and make the distance 10k for both male & female, but then we may find far fewer women competing and I would prefer to have more women competing.
As HillsAths said the distance for W55+ in NSW State Champs is only 6k and that is the same distance as it was at the last world masters champs that I went to; W55+ did 6k, while the M55+ did 8k.
I suppose it has largely to do with numbers, more women find it easier to finish the race at the shorter distance (at speed). Same in Mt running. I just did the Aust Mt running Champs at the Dandenongs, 8.2k for the women, 12.3k for the men. The W55+ did one lap (4.1k). I thought two laps of that course was far enough too !

[Long Arms]

Women run marathons (Paula Radcliffe was the fastest Brit one year a few years back out of men and women in 2.15); women run ultra marathons- why can they "supposedly" not run a 12km cross country?

While we are at it- why on earth don't women play the best of 5 sets in tennis- why only 3 sets?

[Easy Tiger]

Quote

While we are at it- why on earth don't women play the best of 5 sets in tennis- why only 3 sets?

because it'd only be worth watching if Serena Williams was playing Serena Williams

[Freesoul]

southy, on Jun 27 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

Well I just did the NSW CC course at Nowra too and I was very happy that I only had to go around that course twice, not 3 times. It was enough of a challenge to get up that hill down the back twice !
8K CC is enough for me IMHO, and I am female. If I want to do a 12k race or a 16k race or a HM, then I will go find one.

Now, Southy, you're really tougher than you think. If the race you'd entered was 12k, then I'm sure you could do it. If there was no question about women running the same as men, then you just would. Cross country is supposed to be tough. Be thankful that we don't have jumps like they do in NZ and UK.

Quote

I just did the Aust Mt running Champs at the Dandenongs, 8.2k for the women, 12.3k for the men. The W55+ did one lap (4.1k). I thought two laps of that course was far enough too !

Yeah, it is a dumb course. I reckon the downhill is too long. If the loop was clockwise then it would be better. Anyway, we are distance runners. Endurance plays a big role in what we do. I guess it's all relative, but the test/challenge is distance, not feeling comfortable (over a shorter course than men).

Edited by Freesoul, 28 June 2009 - 07:54 PM.

[pygmydwarf]

I suppose you are right Free Soul. If I had to do 12k then I would and I could , but I'm thankful I don't have to!
I love cross country running, more so than road or track.
But still I think we would find even fewer women competing.
I know plenty of men who complain about 12k too!

And yes, I would have much prefered running the Dandenong course the other way around. I much prefer long steady hills to steep calf busters like that one. But I guess it is Mt Running, not xc !

Sorry Free Soul - this is Southy replying, not PigmyDwarf (I'm on my daughters laptop).

Edited by pygmydwarf, 28 June 2009 - 03:48 PM.