7 replies to this topic

[Willow47]

I had started a post in the Toes and Feet section...HERE
My problem is baffling to say the least, and after months of research, I still have no answer.
My problem appears to be a very late and rapid forefoot pronation that is giving me a great deal of “slap”. What tends to happen is a reduction of forward momentum, leaving me sore in the thighs after each run, and while I have not had any serious injuries as yet, my feet sure do feel very tired after a run.
I have been a runner for a long long time, but a lot was fitness work for football and cricket...5 to 8 km 2 to 3 times a week.
Over the past 6 years I have done a fair amount of running, intermixed with layoffs for illness/injury, or change of lifestyle...time consuming house renovations for example.
I decided to get extra serious 18 months ago, and at the time was running in a few pair of New Balance M857, and Asics TN 537. Time dated shoes I know but I had bought a few pair of each a few years earlier, they were very comfortable to run in and time seemed to not have deteriorated in the mid sole etc.
Now here is the problem....well a few problems. August/September last year saw me in the market for new shoes. I need a wider fitting, so basically only gives me New Balance or Asics. Here in the west we have the usual……Amart, Rebel, Athletes Foot, along with Runners world, Jim Kidd, and Sports Fever. Well as long as you are prepared to be told that “they are comfortable, are a nice colour, you will be happy with them because I have a pair etc etc etc”, or go to Sports Fever where the sales assistants lay on the floor in contorted poses claiming to be analysing your foot problem, you are left with AF, that at least has the “footprint” that is useful to a certain degree.
The problem is that probably 98% of running shoes sold never see a running kilometre, and those that do, may not see more than 15 to 20 km a week. It is not possible to know if a shoe is suitable by walking or trying to jog 4 meters up a carpeted shop.
The first shoe recommended was the MR1011…well luckily that shoe was such a mismatch with my foot type, I only needed 400m to find out, and was returned for a full refund. However since then on advice from various AF stores I now own in New Balance, MR768, MR 859, MR1062, and Asics 2140…all of which are not suitable. The MR 859 is the better one being an update of the 857 (857,858,859)
I have seen a sports podiatrist, and now have orthotics, but these have not solved my problem of forefoot slap, not that I thought they would. My podiatrist is not willing to recommend a shoe either to use with or without my orthotics.
So my problem is either a recent foot problem, the shoes in general, or brand of shoe.
I have almost come to the conclusion that modern technology since my MR857’s has altered the balance I need between heel and forefoot…the NB Stability Web for example. Remember I still run perfectly in my 857’s, although the last pair is nearly past it.
I have found the Asics 1130/40, Gel 3000, and the Nimbus 9/10 to have different characteristic to NB, but that is as I have said running 4m in a carpeted shop and is no guarantee of suitability. I think Asics may be a better shoe for me, but I am no longer going to dish out $$$ to prove it one way or another.
I fully understand that manufacturers and retailers may not be viable without the casual shoe market, and unfortunately I have a not so common foot type.
I also understand their refusal to allow me outside the shop to try them on the footpath etc because of the possibility of damaging them.
Podiatry has not and appears will not help me, and unless I am prepared to shell out thousand of experimental dollars, my running is going to be very limited.
Thank you for allowing me to get that 8 months frustration off my chest. I write this in the hope there can be a solution, to read any thoughts, ideas or opinions, or in fact if anyone has a similar problem…just putting it out there for a bit of Sunday reading.
Probably go for a Sunday drive now, look for someone my foot size running in Asics, and knock him over for his shoes.....well just to try them out....he can have them back if they are no good.

[sook54]

Have you tried a second opinion from another podiatrist. I've always found them willing to help.

[Willow47]

sook54, on May 17 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

Have you tried a second opinion from another podiatrist. I've always found them willing to help.

That was on my list of things to do.
Problem is I can still run fine in older shoes NB857, which indicates to me, that it is a shoe/brand of shoe/new technology problem.
I have no injuries...no injuries at all that indicate a podiatrist is necessary....purely the shoes seem to contol or over control my forefoot.
While I certainly do not have anywhere near the knowledge of a podiatrist, with no injury concerns and high arches, I really saw no need for orthotics, but you do rely on advice.
My podiatrist is well known and respected by my medical practitioner, and by the head podiatrist at DVA.

[Koala1]

Have you thought about going down the path of barefoot running if you are finding the shoes are controlling / over controlling your feet? Perhaps the vibram 5 fingers, or something else that would give minimum support and allow the foot to move more naturally?

Just a thought.
K1

[BEN-HUR]

Firstly, it is difficult to give adequate advice to an issue of this nature from the other side of the PC screen, as a visual analysis is needed. However, some of the following points may give you a clearer understanding of the issue & direct you in the right direction.

Willow47, on May 17 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

My problem appears to be a very late and rapid forefoot pronation that is giving me a great deal of “slap”. What tends to happen is a reduction of forward momentum, leaving me sore in the thighs after each run, and while I have not had any serious injuries as yet, my feet sure do feel very tired after a run.

Who has diagnosed this "very late and rapid forefoot pronation"?

The sore thighs is probably due to excess eccentric loading of the Quadriceps & quite possibly related to the audible "slap" of foot strike. You have stated there is a "reduction of forward momentum" which could indicate you could be striking too far forward of your centre of gravity (CoG) thus exacerbating large eccentric forces going through the lower limb (including thighs/Quadriceps). For efficient running one needs to have foot contact close to CoG (i.e. under pelvis). It could also be due to adverse biomechanical forces (poor structural i.e. bone/joint integrity), or adverse running technique/form, weak muscles, inappropriate footwear, or a combination of some or all of the above. I would say a combination to some degree.

Willow47, on May 17 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

... you are left with AF, that at least has the “footprint” that is useful to a certain degree.

This is of very little functional use... it can only possibly tell part of the story.

Willow47, on May 17 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

I have seen a sports podiatrist, and now have orthotics, but these have not solved my problem of forefoot slap, not that I thought they would. My podiatrist is not willing to recommend a shoe either to use with or without my orthotics.
So my problem is either a recent foot problem, the shoes in general, or brand of shoe.

What did the "sports podiatrist" say? Did the Podiatrist give you exercises? ... i.e. did he/she mention that you could have weak lower abdominals which could be contributing to the "foot slap" (i.e. rapid leg drop thus heavy foot strike)? Are you a heavy heel striker? Are you still getting the sore Quads whilst wearing the orthotics?

Willow47, on May 17 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

Podiatry has not and appears will not help me, and unless I am prepared to shell out thousand of experimental dollars, my running is going to be very limited.

How many Podiatrists have you seen to come to this generalised conclusion? What gives you the impression that thousands of "experimental dollars" are needed? Is Podiatry the sole answer to the issue considering you stated the following...

Willow47, on May 17 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

That was on my list of things to do.
Problem is I can still run fine in older shoes NB857, which indicates to me, that it is a shoe/brand of shoe/new technology problem.
I have no injuries...no injuries at all that indicate a podiatrist is necessary....purely the shoes seem to contol or over control my forefoot.
While I certainly do not have anywhere near the knowledge of a podiatrist, with no injury concerns and high arches, I really saw no need for orthotics, but you do rely on advice.
My podiatrist is well known and respected by my medical practitioner, and by the head podiatrist at DVA.

Did the Podiatrist inform you why you would benefit from orthotics?

Willow47, on May 17 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

I write this in the hope there can be a solution, to read any thoughts, ideas or opinions

I posted this in your initial thread relating to your issue...

BEN-HUR, on May 6 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

...There are different types of high arch feet (Pes Cavus). Some are 'rigid' & some are 'flexible'. It is the 'flexible' high arch foot that is most likely to pronate out of phase. In short, this is usually due to the nature of the forefoot stability/stiffness. If the forefoot stiffness is reduced or has little resistance on weightbearing the foot will 'roll inwards' & arch drop (pronate). The Podiatrist should be able to easily test the forefoot stiffness & treat accordingly.

This type of foot can potentially have real problems with Plantar Fasciitis as the Plantar Fasciia is having to excessively elongate under intense force/stress.

Quote

QUOTE (Willow47 @ May 4 2009, 12:04 AM)
I have high arches but it appears as though I pronate excessivly (I understand the need for pronation), so much so that when running all I hear is slap slap slap slap.....

If you are hearing a lot of "slapping" on ground contact you may need to have your running gait assessed as well.

As you can see this issue can be multifactorial... however, there should be a solution. Barefoot running has been suggested & this is possibly potentially a part-time solution i.e. used as a training tool. Nike Free could also be of some help also. But as stated at the beginning, it is difficult to give clear cut advice.

All the best.

[PodRunner]

Agree with Ben Hur on all the above.

As he mentioned, shoes and orthotics may have some effect on your forefoot slapping but if you're overstriding with tight lateral calves and hamstrings, your shin muscles won't be able to cope with the momentum and your feet will slap.

Some basic advice: Improve your calf/hamstring/hip rotator/hip flexor range and core/abdominal strength as Ben Hur suggested, and-

Run level, run as quietly as possible and with a high cadence. All of these things will reduce the total force amount and force peak that your shin muscles have to deal with so they can successfully lower your feet to the ground without fatiguing too quickly.

[osmium]

Are there no stores that will allow you to take the shoes for a decent run out in the "real world"? I'm only a beginner runner, but two shoe stores I've been to in Wellington give you a 30 day return if you don't like the shoes they recommend to you. That includes trail runs as I bought a pair of trail shoes yesterday and took them out today and checked beforehand. So if in a couple of weeks I find I don't like the shoes I can just take them back and get something else. I thought this must be a pretty common offer? I can see how this could be incredibly frustrating if you can't do this.

[runningclear]

Podiatrists and other health experts are often thinking far more inside their head than out. i am sure your podiatrist had a very good reason for issuing these orthotics and i am equally sure that he would have further plans if they didn't fix the problem. You are well within your rights to enquire about his reasoning and plans. As for the shoe reccomendations: it is part of his job description so i would like to think that now you have your orthotics, he could go out on a limb and suggest a few options. i would but would be stupid to do so without seeing your and your feet in person.
As for trying out the shoes without buying them... If only you were in Melbourne!! There is a shop there called shoe logic which allow you to run on their treadmill for as you want and they are all qualified podiatrists or biomechanists in there!! As for Perth, well maybe you could open up that business? good luck with it all and if you are ever in Melbourne be sure to check them out!!