Taxpayers To Fund Lapband Surgery Options

[julia]

News story link

What do you all think?

I'm probs going to get slammed for this, but personally, I don't really think we should have to fork out money for this. They don't have the money? Then don't spend so much money on food, THAT'S A SAVING.

It annoys me, I run not only because I love it, but to be healthy and maintain a healthy weight, so when things like this come out where people want us to start paying for something that in many cases is due to a person's own unhealthy habits, then I get pretty angry at it.

Unless there is going to be some sort of prerequisite, where the primary cause of the obesity is a clearly defined medical reason, I don't want to pay for people to have this surgery when they could've just put down the burger and take the stairs.

It'd be like asking us to fund lung transplants for smokers - they did it to themselves, and they know the risks, so they're not even eligible in the first place. So if someone is obese because they eat crap and spend their time sitting on their arse, it's not my problem if they can't afford lapband surgery.

A large majority of the medications and appointments and counselling I need for disorders I've had since I was born don't have funding, so why should I pay for an overweight person to take an easier option to weight loss?

I'd rather my tax dollar go towards educating people about healthy lifestyles and introducing physical activity and healthy habits into their lives, rather than giving them a lapband.

Blah.

[staypuff]

will they pay my gym fees instead lol. dont hink we'll get a say but..

[julia]

At the end there's a suggestion for cheaper gym memberships, which...well yeah! No one funds my gym membership, or my coaching fees, or the $$ I've spent on shoes, or physio...
Without all of the above, I'd probably be a fatty...
So if they get funding for surgery, I want funding as a preventative measure!

[undercover broth...]

its a toughy!
not the first time the debate has come up in the media over the years.
as a doctor i certainly see the role for it in people who have 'tried everything' it can certainly change their lives for the better and in the meantime save the taxpayer lots of money.
of course its not without potential problems.
as a taxpayer and a runner i wish a lot more effort would be put into preventing people getting this way.

[msbriz]

Failing a medical issue I don't think tax payers should fund this. When people say they have 'tried everything' - have they really? The formula is not hard - eat less, exercise more. If you have emotional issues that cause overeating, then they should be addressed, not a quick fix by physically altering your ability to eat a certain amount of food. I agree with UCB - how about using the money to prevent the problem instead? But hey, I think smokers should pay a 'health' penalty tax each year (I'm an ex-smoker) so I could be a bit hardline about these things...

[soyboy]

i dunno - the older i get the less i am sure about:
taxpayers paying for lapband surgery ?
taxpayers paying for smokers cancer treatment ?
taxpayers paying to bail out car manufacturers ?
taxpayers paying for innocent people to be murdered in foreign wars ?
taxpayers paying for drunken motorbike riders surgery ?
taxpayers paying for ivf treatment ?
childless taxpayers paying for schools ?
taxpayers paying for refugee's old age pension ?
taxpayers paying for first time home buyers allowance ?
who knows but it sure is a complicated world out there.

[tetley]

It's a business decision, pure and simple. If it's cheaper for the taxpayer to pay for lapband surgery than pay the bill for the coronary care that may come later then so be it.

[Sharky]

I agree with the preventative approach.

However, would seem to me that the problem is that it is too difficult (and a long term measure - so hard to measure
the benefit) to fund the preventative approach.

Politicians think a maximum of three years ahead - if you get a good one.

Can somebody explain how lapbands work. If one continues to over eat after having the procedure does the
stomach expand again and maybe need another lapband....

[paulc]

Anything to help reduce obesity in our society is good thing in my opinion. Lap band surgury is a relatively small short term cost compared to the on going medical costs associated with obesity - type 2 diebetes, heart disease, depresion etc.

And beleive me, people who are contemplating lap band surgury don't do it flippantly. Quite often health issues related to obesity make the traditional diet and exercise difficult. Even as a private patient, lap band surgury is a last resort for people who genuinly want to improve their quality of life.

[fastguts]

News story link

It'd be like asking us to fund lung transplants for smokers - they did it to themselves, and they know the risks, so they're not even eligible in the first place. So if someone is obese because they eat crap and spend their time sitting on their arse, it's not my problem if they can't afford lapband surgery.


I'd rather my tax dollar go towards educating people about healthy lifestyles and introducing physical activity and healthy habits into their lives, rather than giving them a lapband.

Blah.

A proportion of your tax has been allocated for alcoholics to get liver transplants for some years now and for overweight, unhealthy people to have coronary bypass surgery. I know my tax goes towards many causes and initiatives that I don't particularly agree with or benefit from but what can you do?!

I agree, I'd rather the money go towards prevention and education and encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves. As already pointed out I guess this initial spend will save money on heart disease, diabetes, infertility, cancer and other obesity related problems in the future.

I know a few people who have a lapband and I'd say half keep the weight off. I also know of a couple that will puree high fat food (burgers, cake etc I kid you not) in order to eat it. I think this is suggestive of a physiological need for for fatty foods.

[paulc]

Can somebody explain how lapbands work. If one continues to over eat after having the procedure does the
stomach expand again and maybe need another lapband....

Basically, the lapband is a silicone band filled with saline. It restrict the rate at which food that reaches the stomach. The more saline in the band, the greater the restriction. A small 'pouch' typically forms above the band - holding undigested food. This should give the person a feeling of being full, even if the stomach is actually empty.

[Sharky]

... Quite often health issues related to obesity make the traditional diet and exercise difficult. Even as a private patient, lap band surgury is a last resort for people who genuinly want to improve their quality of life ....

Paul

Isn't that the point? Treat the problem before the health issues become apparent.

If preventative measures were funded first then perhaps a lot of people wouldn't
get to need the extreme lapband approach? This may be a cheaper long term approach to the
problem

[Rico]

If you start getting angry at the things that your taxes get spent on then you will never stop.

But I'm sure from everything I've read that you're more likely to die from this operation than you are from being obese.

[Pink Lady]

Can somebody explain how lapbands work. If one continues to over eat after having the procedure does the
stomach expand again and maybe need another lapband....

Basically, the lapband is a silicone band filled with saline. It restrict the rate at which food that reaches the stomach. The more saline in the band, the greater the restriction. A small 'pouch' typically forms above the band - holding undigested food. This should give the person a feeling of being full, even if the stomach is actually empty.

paulc is correct - the theory is that people will feel full and therefore not eat. However, in practice often obese people do not have good appetite monitoring processes and may still want to eat the same amount as before. This can have very painful consequences. The Australian surgeons that I know who do this procedure have introduced very careful assessment procedures in an attempt to ensure that the patient - and their family - are prepared to support a different diet regime.

This post has been edited by Pink Lady: Jun 2 2009, 01:52 PM

[paulc]

Don't get me wrong - i don't think we should wait until people get to this point before they get help. I'm just saying that for people who are already in this position, lap band surgery is an option that is worth considering. And if it can help a person lose enough weight to prevent other obesity related illnesses, then surely it is money well spent.

[staypuff]

i know a couple of people who admit they cheat the band like why... I dont get it you got the band to help you is it then a game to see what you can sneak past it and your doc.. It doesnt teach a healthy lifestyle

[undercover broth...]

But I'm sure from everything I've read that you're more likely to die from this operation than you are from being obese.

please explain.
you're not thinking of gastric bypass instead?

[paulc]

Which is why obesity is such a difficult problem for society. The message "just eat healthy and go for a run" doesn't help people who are obese. Educating them on what food is healthy doesn't help. They know what food is healthy. They know that exercise is good for you. Just like smokers know the health risks associated with smoking.

Lap band surgury is a medical intervention to limit the volume of food that can be consumed. For people who can't (or won't) control the volume of food they eat, it can help.

[kezel]

certainly a tough one!
To my understanding this procedure is not the 'cure all'.
I know someone who had this procedure two years ago and very little has changed.
No change in diet and no increased physical activity. Eating smaller portions perhaps but loaded with calories

We really will not win. If nothing gets done the taxpayer still has to foot the bill for all the medical, psychological, social and other problems that obesity causes.This is already the case.Hospitals are full of patients with premorbid obesity resulting in a myriad of medical complexities therefore longer hospital stays and prolonged treatment.

Lot of work needed to change people's perception about self.
Many of them will say they don't have a weight problem.......BIB (big is beautiful) label helps to entrench that perception for instance.

[julia]

i know a couple of people who admit they cheat the band like why... I dont get it you got the band to help you is it then a game to see what you can sneak past it and your doc.. It doesnt teach a healthy lifestyle

certainly a tough one!
To my understanding this procedure is not the 'cure all'.
I know someone who had this procedure two years ago and very little has changed.
No change in diet and no increased physical activity. Eating smaller portions perhaps but loaded with calories

This is a big issue I have with the idea. We could give everyone lapband surgery - but what's the point if they're not going to change their lifestyle? And I think suggesting this as well gives people the idea that they can go get it done because it's taxpayer funded now - not because they've really been trying to lose weight in the first place.

If people are getting it done and still eating the same way or going to the point of blending up fatty food to eat it, then I think the lapband surgery is useless. There's no point to it until people are willing and going to stick to changing the way they eat.

While reports are now saying more than 50% of Australians are obese... there is still that percentage of people that aren't. So in a lot of cases, it's not like it's something that people can't prevent if they have willpower and motivation. Most of my relatives range from being overweight to very obese, and I'm a person that gains weight very easily, but I still maintain a healthy weight and I don't go hungry or miss out on the foods I love (like Cold Rock ice cream, OMG), just I control myself - and that is through education about what I put into my body will do, not only to my weight but to other things like my heart, cholesterol, diabetes, etc.

I don't want tax dollars going towards surgery, unless it's the absolute final resort because nothing else possible has worked and the patient is going to change their lifestyle. I'd rather it go towards prevention, education, cheaper options for exercise etc.

[Sharky]

Why are we surprised?

The "quick fix" or "magic bullet" answer to everything is what most people look for.

I am constantly amused by some people who attend the gym I frequent. They will drive
to the gym (ok most people don't live within walking distance) and then park as close as
possible to the door - to the extent of parking dangerously for other members and their cars -
to avoid any unnecessary walking.

Hello???

[loubee]

I think it is important the govt is acting on all fronts to fight this disease. If you haven't been overweight it is hard to understand just how difficult it is to lose weight, particulary when you reach the size that lap band becomes the only possible solution. Prevention and education is well intrenched in the budget but as with all things it is not the only solution.

I'm so over the attitude that because I pay tax it should only go toward what effects me. I would rather live in a community that helps both the poor and the rich, the healthy and the sick as well as the average joe blow as the need arises than a country that can't provide this'. There isn't a great deal in the budget for me or my family and personally I think that means we are in a pretty good place.

[antil]

I heard an argument for this tax funded scheme saying that obesity costs the economy $50billion a year.
Let's look into the crystal ball and into a future of a society with no obesity:

Newsflash:
The lobby group of the struggeling fast food industry is rallying independent senators and the government to fast track a change in legislation that removes Lapband surgerya and bans CR as it threatens the existance a $500billlion dollar industry and thousands of local and ten thousdands of offshore jobs. If nothing is done fast, McDownald and KcF are likely to file for bankrupcy in the next week, after recieving more than $800billion of government bailout support.

[DontStop]

What else do you do?

Phase out plus-sized clothing? Too draconian.

Teach portion control in schools? Too many don't want to learn.

Ban processed junk food? Too many vested interests.

Subsidise running shoes and gym memberships? You'd only be rewarding those who already look after themselves.

I guess the only thing left is for our tax dollars to pay for surgery, so people who've eaten their way to obesity won't feel like eating so much anymore.

Society gets weirder by the week.

[FakePlasticTrees]

I heard an argument for this tax funded scheme saying that obesity costs the economy $50billion a year.
Let's look into the crystal ball and into a future of a society with no obesity:

Newsflash:
The lobby group of the struggeling fast food industry is rallying independent senators and the government to fast track a change in legislation that removes Lapband surgerya and bans CR as it threatens the existance a $500billlion dollar industry and thousands of local and ten thousdands of offshore jobs. If nothing is done fast, McDownald and KcF are likely to file for bankrupcy in the next week, after recieving more than $800billion of government bailout support.

So are you saying that health care is a disguised ongoing stimulus package?

[msbriz]

What annoys me most about this is - whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions? Surely we would not want to live in a complete nanny state? If you choose to eat too much, and you become obese, then guess what? You pay to fix it - whether this be through increased personal tax or other penalties. Just like, if I decide to have children, I do not expect any hand outs as I should have planned and saved prior to starting a family. IMO you make choices, you live with them and their consequences.

[Sharky]

Are you serious msbriz?

Next, you will be wanting people to take responsibility for their kids behaviour and their
animals.

Where would it all end...

[msbriz]

Are you serious msbriz?

Next, you will be wanting people to take responsibility for their kids behaviour and their
animals.

Where would it all end...

Sorry, what was I thinking.....

[paulc]

What annoys me most about this is - whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions? Surely we would not want to live in a complete nanny state? If you choose to eat too much, and you become obese, then guess what? You pay to fix it - whether this be through increased personal tax or other penalties. Just like, if I decide to have children, I do not expect any hand outs as I should have planned and saved prior to starting a family. IMO you make choices, you live with them and their consequences.

So if people make poor choices in their life, then society should just tell them "tough luck - your choice, live with it". I would rather see society say "so youve made some bad choices, lets work together to fix them" rather than just abandon and ridicule them.

[Leofisio]

in my home-country this surgery can be performed at the public system level based upon an rigid eligibility criteria, I am not 100% sure about the criteria... but seems pretty sensible there: if they feel that surgery is the crucial in for this patient (for example for people with 190+kg) and everything else was tried, they do it... I have heard that the system is working there... no one is abusing the system and maybe the taxpayers are saving money on this...

just my opinion...

of course the best action is prevention... but everyone has the right to have access to care...

Leo

[msbriz]

So if people make poor choices in their life, then society should just tell them "tough luck - your choice, live with it". I would rather see society say "so youve made some bad choices, lets work together to fix them" rather than just abandon and ridicule them.

Hmmm not entirely. I did not say anyone should be abandoned, simply that they should take responsbility for their own actions, and if this means you cost the health system more, then you might pay more tax to compensate. I definitely never alluded to ridicule either. As I said in my previous post, if someone is for example, obese due to emotional overeating, then we should treat the emotional problem, not the symptom.

[julia]

If you haven't been overweight it is hard to understand just how difficult it is to lose weight, particulary when you reach the size that lap band becomes the only possible solution.

I know it's not massive, and nowhere near what people considering this surgery would have gained, but I gained 12kg + because of the medication I was on, and some of that was while I was in hospital, eating hospital food! And it was hard, but I lost it, and it took time, and it got me down, and a lot of the time it felt like it was useless trying and I felt disguisting and uncomfortable and couldn't fit into my clothes. But it was still possible.
It's hard to lose weight but I think a lot of the time the problem is motivation, willpower, and quitting when you have a bit of a stumble. I fear there may be the situation where many people just will just give up and opt for surgery if it becomes tax payer funded.

[loubee]

So if people make poor choices in their life, then society should just tell them "tough luck - your choice, live with it". I would rather see society say "so youve made some bad choices, lets work together to fix them" rather than just abandon and ridicule them.

I'm with you Paulc.

[antil]

So are you saying that health care is a disguised ongoing stimulus package?

Just an other multi billion dollar industry. Ooops, I am part of it, so I better shut up!

[nabiya]

As much as it pains me to say it, I think it's too late for prevention. Telling people to eat better and go for a run is not going to cut it - it's like telling a person with clinical depression to cheer up.

Our medical system is overburdened dealing with the consequences and I do agree with msbriz that people need to accept responsibility for their own actions. And I don't see the difference between the gov't paying for lap band surgeries or the gov't paying baby bonuses or paying the dole to those who are long-term unemployed by choice - all with my tax. But it's never ending...

I'd like to a see system whereby the patient has to pay back the cost of their lapband surgery through their tax, like HECS-HELP (but without the minimum income requirements HECS-HELP has so they're paying it back regardless of how much or how little they earn). Making people pay for it in some form will help sort those who really want it and those that will take it just because it's there.

[soyboy]

If you choose to eat too much, and you become obese, then guess what? You pay to fix it - whether this be through increased personal tax or other penalties. Just like, if I decide to have children, I do not expect any hand outs as I should have planned and saved prior to starting a family. IMO you make choices, you live with them and their consequences.

just like america.
worst health system in the first world.
completely farked.

[msbriz]

I'd like to a see system whereby the patient has to pay back the cost of their lapband surgery through their tax, like HECS-HELP (but without the minimum income requirements HECS-HELP has so they're paying it back regardless of how much or how little they earn). Making people pay for it in some form will help sort those who really want it and those that will take it just because it's there.

Well thought out idea....

[FakePlasticTrees]

Hmmm not entirely. I did not say anyone should be abandoned, simply that they should take responsbility for their own actions, and if this means you cost the health system more, then you might pay more tax to compensate. I definitely never alluded to ridicule either. As I said in my previous post, if someone is for example, obese due to emotional overeating, then we should treat the emotional problem, not the symptom.

This is a rather narrow view of life that suggests each individual is only of benefit to themselves at not society. It's the complete disintegration of society as a concept and becomes a fuzzy wuzzy free for all. How many benefits do you receive from society that you take for granted that wouldn't be there under a user pays system. All those people subsidising the water coming to your house, the roads you run/ride/drive on. Children do provide a benefit to society even if you don't see it, least of all is who is going to be paying your pension when you are old. The parents already pay increased taxes through having to buy more stuff, GST slugs them there. You are using their taxes from increased consumption to fritter away on education, health etc...

Or do you want to set a baseline at which above everyone has to pay more? That baseline of course is where you are currently situated. Anybody requiring more from society than you needs to pay?

Edit: I should say I'm against the concept of free lap-dances for everyone (or lap-bands)

This post has been edited by FakePlasticTrees: Jun 2 2009, 04:04 PM

[msbriz]

just like america.
worst health system in the first world.
completely farked.

Well not really - because I'm not saying if you have leukemia we won't fix you unless you pay for it or have health insurance (as in the case of America's dodgy system). I am talking about medical issues that are self-inflicted that have other solutions eg. obesity's only solution is not lapband surgery.

[FakePlasticTrees]

Our medical system is overburdened dealing with the consequences and I do agree with msbriz that people need to accept responsibility for their own actions. And I don't see the difference between the gov't paying for lap band surgeries or the gov't paying baby bonuses or paying the dole to those who are long-term unemployed by choice - all with my tax. But it's never ending...

I'd like to a see system whereby the patient has to pay back the cost of their lapband surgery through their tax, like HECS-HELP (but without the minimum income requirements HECS-HELP has so they're paying it back regardless of how much or how little they earn). Making people pay for it in some form will help sort those who really want it and those that will take it just because it's there.

Wow, it's spreading. Do you live in a society that provide lots of benefits for you? You mentioned XXX-HELP so I'm going to assume you are currently or have been in study in the last 5 years. Are you aware that you used my taxes to subsidise your education? I want my taxes back so I can go get my lap-band surgery.

[paulc]

Hmmm not entirely. I did not say anyone should be abandoned, simply that they should take responsbility for their own actions, and if this means you cost the health system more, then you might pay more tax to compensate. I definitely never alluded to ridicule either.

Sorry, a bit over an over-reation from me. This is a topic close to my heart.

As I said in my previous post, if someone is for example, obese due to emotional overeating, then we should treat the emotional problem, not the symptom.

I certainly can't speak for all cases, but i would be suprised to see any case of obesity requiring lap-band surgery that is not related to emotional / mental health issues. I see the lap-band surgery as a step to help people get out of downward spiral of health and emotional issues related to obesity.

[soyboy]

I'm not saying if you have leukemia we won't fix you unless you pay for it or have health insurance (as in the case of America's dodgy system). I am talking about medical issues that are self-inflicted

sounds like a very slippery slope.
can you get leukaemia from cigarettes or too many chiko rolls ? that could be self-inflicted.
maybe you choose to work with asbestos (self inflicted as its your choice) AND claim penalty rates at the same time ? should you pay ? its just too hard to work out and too easy to rort.

[loubee]

And it was hard, but I lost it, and it took time, and it got me down, and a lot of the time it felt like it was useless trying and I felt disguisting and uncomfortable and couldn't fit into my clothes. But it was still possible.
It's hard to lose weight but I think a lot of the time the problem is motivation, willpower, and quitting when you have a bit of a stumble. I fear there may be the situation where many people just will just give up and opt for surgery if it becomes tax payer funded.

And you only had to lose 12k, try needing to lose 30 or 40 or 50kilos . I can tell you now that just because lap band surgery may be tax payer funded it won't mean people will just give up. I don't care how it got on, if we can help get it off and give someone a better future I am all for it.

A friend of mine recently had an intervention staged by her family where they told her husband that she needed to lose weight and he needed to tell her. They offered to pay for lap band surgery, she and her husband were mortified, she wouldn't speak to them and was incredibly angry and hurt. She refused to have the surgery and has slowly been losing the weight via weight watchers, 20k's down she still has as much to go nearly a year later.

Being overwight is not just about will power and motivation it comes right down to the core of who you are.

Wow, it's spreading. Do you live in a society that provide lots of benefits for you? You mentioned XXX-HELP so I'm going to assume you are currently or have been in study in the last 5 years. Are you aware that you used my taxes to subsidise your education? I want my taxes back so I can go get my lap-band surgery.

I know, where do people get this idea that paying tax is a piggy bank that you get back when you are ready!

[msbriz]

This is a rather narrow view of life that suggests each individual is only of benefit to themselves at not society. It's the complete disintegration of society as a concept and becomes a fuzzy wuzzy free for all. How many benefits do you receive from society that you take for granted that wouldn't be there under a user pays system. All those people subsidising the water coming to your house, the roads you run/ride/drive on. Children do provide a benefit to society even if you don't see it, least of all is who is going to be paying your pension when you are old. The parents already pay increased taxes through having to buy more stuff, GST slugs them there. You are using their taxes from increased consumption to fritter away on education, health etc...

Or do you want to set a baseline at which above everyone has to pay more? That baseline of course is where you are currently situated. Anybody requiring more from society than you needs to pay?

Edit: I should say I'm against the concept of free lap-dances for everyone (or lap-bands)

I apologise as I am obviously not communicating my opinion very well as I am being misunderstood. I pay for the benefits I recieve through tax/council rates etc. I pay for water and roads through the tax I pay. I understand society needs children (and I may even have some one day), and hence my taxes pay for children's services and education etc and I am fine with that. I don't however accept that I should get a $500 cash bonus to spend on whatever I want because I choose to have children.

I understand and agree that there are common services beneficial to all in society (or even to a minority) that should be paid for by 'the group', of which health is one. I haven't suggested an overall user pays system... simply, in this case I was referring to the topic at hand, obesity, which is a self-inflicted medical problem. So while society will help you deal with it, you should pay for it in some way as there are alternative solutions to your problem then the surgery. Oh and p.s. I won't need a pension because I am saving and investing now.

sounds like a very slippery slope.
can you get leukaemia from cigarettes or too many chiko rolls ? that could be self-inflicted.
maybe you choose to work with asbestos (self inflicted as its your choice) AND claim penalty rates at the same time ? should you pay ? its just too hard to work out and too easy to rort.

fair call...

[nabiya]

Wow, it's spreading. Do you live in a society that provide lots of benefits for you? You mentioned XXX-HELP so I'm going to assume you are currently or have been in study in the last 5 years. Are you aware that you used my taxes to subsidise your education? I want my taxes back so I can go get my lap-band surgery.

Yes, I am aware that your taxes (and everyone elses) helped subsidise my education. I am also aware that I contributed about $8K of my own money for my one year of part time post grad studies. Now I have a job where I earn more money than before and therefore pay for more lapbands in tax per year than I did before I dipped into your taxes

[seris]

I'm with msbriz and sharky on this one.
I work in a Private hospital theatre that does some of these operations. Every patient that comes into the theatre understands that they eat too much. How much cheaper would it be to just WIRE THEIR JAW SHUT!
Alcoholics get sent off to some detox farm and do the hard yards. These guys have a little cry and say they "just can't do it" Well it works for the Biggest Loser...... it's called hard work and determination. The fatties that lose the weight (and keep it off) on the biggest loser actually GET IT. Life. No crying in their KFC wondering why they are fat. I lost my brother at the age of 49 last week. It's time for some tough love.
Loubee and paulc, I really think a bit of HTFU with most of these people is what is needed. Too many tears and not enough sweat.

This post has been edited by seris: Jun 2 2009, 04:22 PM

[FakePlasticTrees]

I don't however accept that I should get a $500 cash bonus to spend on whatever I want because I choose to have children.

Thanks for the post, I understand what you're saying. I just wanted to expand on this line. Don't know if you had a typo but it's $5000 not $500. Anyway the reason for the payout was not to encourage 18 year old kids to procreate as a means of income, in one situation the girl bribed the boyfriend to stick around by buying him an X-Box. It is because of this wonderful health system even is getting too old and not considerately dying young. So most people save up a super, as you are responsibly doing, but it runs out at some point and then you have to rely on the pension. So the previous government tried to cater for that by buying a tax paying work force in 20 years time. So it's an investment in the future.

[superflake]

I'm donating my free lap band surgery money to pay for more "Life be in it" ads.

At least Norm got out of his chair 25 years ago and went for a walk.

[Rico]

Didn't the obesity epidemic start at exactly the point the Life Be In It ads started?

Is there any evidence at all that health promotion and prevention spending makes any difference?

please explain.
you're not thinking of gastric bypass instead?

Couldn't rule it out. I always get them mixed up. And presumably the one that cuts off and sews up bits of the digestive system is more dangerous than the less intrusive lapband one. I'll look it up later.

[msbriz]

Anyway the reason for the payout was not to encourage 18 year old kids to procreate as a means of income, in one situation the girl bribed the boyfriend to stick around by buying him an X-Box.