21 replies to this topic

[Beej]

Hi all,

I'm in training for a half marathon in August and have been following a training program that i really like. Coming up it suggests a 3KM time trial.

What is this?

Thanks in advance.

Ben

[twosheds]

Beej, on Jun 7 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

Hi all,

I'm in training for a half marathon in August and have been following a training program that i really like. Coming up it suggests a 3KM time trial.

What is this?

Thanks in advance.

Ben

3km run as fast as you can. Lots of fun!

[Solace]

I have one of these in my program and it was suggested by the person who wrote the program that the first 1k should be slower than the second two.

Have fun. Mine is on Tuesday.

[Bull]

Hi Beej,

A T/T shouldn't be an all out effort, that's what racing is for. Effort should be about 90-95%, you should aim for even pacing and no sprinting at the finish.

Cheers
Bull

[thomo]

The T/T is the fastest pace you can sustain for the duration of the run.

A place to do this if you are in Sydney is here E.S. Marks Athletics Field

Just ensure that you stay in lane one, towards the inside and watch out for sprinters doing their rep work, make sure you yell track and give them sufficient time for them to react.

Probaly best to observe prior to your run and let people who are doing fast, then slow running that it is best that they move to an outside lane.

[EnduranceMachine]

I would say to run it at about 4 to 5k race paces

[JustinS007]

thomo, on Jun 7 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

The T/T is the fastest pace you can sustain for the duration of the run.

That was my thought too thomo, but seems others marginally disagree.

Does anyone know who coined the phrase 'Time Trial' for running and what their definition was? Established 'norms' may now de different but it would be good to know what the original thoughts were.

[RodN]

I don't get why you'd hold back on such a short TT - its great fun seeing how quick you can run.

[julia]

Solace, on Jun 7 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

I have one of these in my program and it was suggested by the person who wrote the program that the first 1k should be slower than the second two.

negative splits i'm a big fan of running like this. if i go flat out from the start i find it physically and mentally harder to sustain it, but if i start out slower, even if it's only 4 or 5 seconds/km slower than the next split i'll do, i find it a lot easier, and i can then smash out the end.

also, we do this every 4 weeks, at the end of our easy week - and we go all out, race pace, to see how much we've improved and just generally how we're going. exceptions is for anyone who has a race close after or just before, who's schedule would be altered anyways...

Edited by julia, 07 June 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[Davo83]

I was always of the thought that T/T should be 100 % effort as its an easy way of monitoring your progress/improvement on a regular basis.

Bull, why would you only go at 90%? Wouldn't you want to replicate race conditions, and IMHO its a lot easier to eliminate the variable of intensity, as how would a non-elite runner determine between 88% and 94%?

I always start slower aswell as i prefer to leave a bit in the tank for the finishing kick.

cheers

Dave

Edited by Davo83, 07 June 2009 - 08:23 PM.

[EnduranceMachine]

If you want to do it all out enter a race and make it mean something

[Quinkin]

A fast time trial doesn't mean anything? For me it builds confidence for a race and it also can make my day.

[Davo83]

Yeah i agree that your best times should be done in a Race, not in training; but for people like myself who only did the B2B fun run each year, its a good indicator of progress.
Obviously if your racing every fortnight, then your training/program should be structured accordingly.


cheers

Dave

[JustinS007]

Davo83, on Jun 7 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

T/T should be 100 % effort
why would you only go at 90%?

Maybe this is where some of the confusion / differing interpretation lies? Cleary we can't go at 100% effort at the start of a TT or we won't make it. But at the end if we have achieved the best we could have, then this would be 100% effort. Maybe a sustained effort at 90% gives us a 100% result at the end

And I agree that regular TT's mean something. Usually they can be undertaken is as near to identical circumstances as the previous one and so provide excellent performance feedback. Hard to get the same out of a race.

[RodN]

You'll never get race effort in a TT the conditions are different. So go all out with confidence that it is an indicator only but if you have given your all at least you have a time to benchmark. ? If constructive, measured, improvement in training is occuring then I don't see why races should be such a guessing game. At least they are not so much with professionals. I don't know I just think it's great to test yourself occassionally to see how your training is going and we all have goals so not sure how we can gauge our progress towards those goals without TT's (or guessing/hoping).

[Bull]

Hi Dave,

In response to the questions or points you have raised, my comments are as follows:

Quote

I was always of the thought that T/T should be 100 % effort as its an easy way of monitoring your progress/improvement on a regular basis.

I agree that a T/T is a good way to monitor progress/improvement provided the variables are similar (surface, wind, temperature, humidity etc). Remember though that you can still do this with any effort run by comparing heart rate data and referring back to your training diary. I do this often but I make sure that the variables are similar. This might even mean comparing one season's data against the previous season.

Quote

Bull, why would you only go at 90%?

In any training programme it's important to know exactly why you are doing a particular session and what effect on your body you are setting out to achieve. I actually referred to a range of 90-95%, which approximates to a strong tempo effort. I should point out most of my T/T's are longer than 3 km's, but I do still find a place for them. If I was preparing for a 5 km race, I might run a 3 km T/T a little harder than if I was putting the finishing touches on a marathon programme.

(i) I like to do a 3 km T/T on the Tuesday before a marathon. I certainly don't want to be wasting myself, so whilst I'll run strongly, I'll be sure to be running within myself. The simple purpose of this run is to run quicker than marathon pace so that it feels relatively easy on Sunday. I'll run this with a HRM & stay at or even below 90% of my Heart Rate Reserve.

(ii) If I was using the 3 km T/T as a form guide for say a 5 km race, I might run to a maximum of 95% of Heart Rate Reserve. I prefer to do this T/T on a grass track or even the treadmill (with a 1-2% incline). It's slower on grass and easier on the body. Either way I'll aim for even pacing and NEVER sprint to the finish. One of the reasons I like to do this on the treadmill is so that I can ensure even pacing and make sure that I don't overdo it.

I guess if you don't race much, it's fine to treat it as an all out effort. Just remember though to allow a few days recovery as you would after a race. The main reason though why I'll only go at 90-95% is because I'm conscious of the stress that an all out effort can put on my body. As I'd typically do this particular version of speedwork run on a Tuesday, I need to be mindful that I've got my mid week 1.5 to 2 hr medium long run the following day.

Quote

Wouldn't you want to replicate race conditions, and IMHO its a lot easier to eliminate the variable of intensity, as how would a non-elite runner determine between 88% and 94%?

I'd simply say that we don't want to put in our best efforts on the training track. I'd much rather go into a race knowing that I've run a certain time in training with something left in the tank. Under race conditions adrenalin and the competition usually lift us to a level we don't find in training anyway. I don't think you need to get too scientific about things, just hold back that little bit and avoid the sprint to the finish.

Quote

I always start slower as well as i prefer to leave a bit in the tank for the finishing kick.

No harm in starting a little slower to evaluate how you're feeling on the day but I aim for even pacing. Trial and error. I can't see the point though in sprinting to the finish in a training run and building up all that extra lactic acid. Just need to know that it's there when it counts on race day.

Hope this helps. Just my point of view. Others may differ.

Best wishes
Bull

[BoneyChic]

Gee, my time trials are always done in the dark (pre 6am) park, so they never really replicate race conditions. The only condition it does replicate is that they're done on my own as is most of my racing (i'm usually at the 'other' pointy end). I even have a downhill sprint to the end, but mind you I have to get to the top of the hill first.


BC

[DistanceRunner]

For a TT to be meaningful you need to do it pretty much flat out, but running evenly.

The difference with a race is that you don't slaughter yourself over last 200-300m in a sprint.

[Davo83]

Bull - Thanks for the indepth reply. I guess you learn something new everyday.


cheers

Dave

[B+]

Time trials only mean something if you repeat them on a regular basis. So where they are placed in your training program is important. If you are following a cookie cutter program from the net or such then look ahead and see if the 3km TT is repeated in coming weeks. If it is then all you need to do is run a fast controlled effort and on the next occasion the program asks for the TT again, your goal should be to run it faster with the same feeling of control. If you have acoach writing the program ask when the 2nd/3rd TT will be.

If your training for a marathon then a hard 3km effort should not cause you too much discomfort in the following days.

For me the difference between TT effort and race effort is control. You should always feel in control or be learning to feel the control on your TT efforts but be very close to the edge, where as on race day there will point periods where you need to push through that feeling to get the best out of yourself.

In a time trial you are seeing how good your best "sustainable" speed effort is, in a race your are seeing how good your best effort is.

Running a controlled effort in training also minimises the risk of injury a bit more as you will rarely be as fresh for a training based TT as you will be on race day.

You do need to turn up to a regular TT effort with some idea of what pace you believe you are capable of in the effort as you are trying to run your fastest even paced effort so either a heart rate guide or a pace guide is a good idea.

train safe

[Quinkin]

The only difference I can see between a time trial and a race is the presence of competitors. I run the same course at regular intervals as hard as possible and monitor improvement. It's a trial or a test to see where you are at using yourself as a virtual training partner. I don't use a heart rate monitor.

I find that these runs make me sharper come race day.

Edited by Quinkin, 08 June 2009 - 05:57 PM.

[Easy Tiger]

As fast as you can without a taper would be how i'd approach the 3km TT. If it is part of a half prep and done at below max effort it'd be a tempo run, which would most likely be 12-16km's. So i'm pretty sure the program would be happy for you to smash yourself, you'll love it, enjoy!