7 replies to this topic

[frankie17]

For the secnod time in 2 races I started cramping in my legs at around 30km just as I entered the glycogen-scarce zone.

My question might be basic, but are these things feeding off each ther or do I need to fix each as independnt things?

I guess i can imagine a lack of glycogen causing some basic problem with muscle function, but is it as simple as that? i.e. if i can improve my endurance (efficiency in using fat and glycogen) will I stop cramping?

Edited by frankie17, 20 July 2009 - 04:31 PM.

[Bert]

Frankie17
In a word, no. There are almost certainly some interactions, but they are less direct than that. You will probably find that as you get fitter and more experienced you won't have too much trouble with the wall, but you may still get cramps. My experience says that cramps can involve specificity of training, dehydration, low sodium, low magnesium, low glycogen stores or any combination of these or other factors, depending on the individual. So don't expect to fix either one by fixing the other, but improving your fitness can help both to some extent. In my own case improving fitness and greater experience has mitigated the effects of the wall and increasing Magnesium intake has almost eliminated cramps, but we each have to find what works for us.

I hope this helps you a bit. Good luck with it.

[Pink Lady]

frankie17, on Jul 20 2009, 12:20 AM, said:

For the secnod time in 2 races I started cramping in my legs at around 30km just as I entered the glycogen-scarce zone.
My question might be basic, but are these things feeding off each ther or do I need to fix each as independnt things?
I guess i can imagine a lack of glycogen causing some basic problem with muscle function, but is it as simple as that? i.e. if i can improve my endurance (efficiency in using fat and glycogen) will I stop cramping?

Hi frankie17 - that is an interesting question. My first thought is that they can't be connected because sometimes I get cramps in my calves that wake me up in the middle of the night.

Then I looked up the definition of muscle cramp in Wikidedia, only to discover that dehydration. low blood salt or sugar, excessive lactic acid, and an electrolyte imbalance caused by heavy sweating, can all cause cramp.

So perhaps its not so much a matter of improving your endurance or fitness, as thinking about your fluid and mineral/sugar intake.

I hope you sort this out quickly because the thought of possibly bringing on cramps during training could be a real downer

[Solace]

I wonder if that is why I get a stitch around the 18k mark of a long run??? A stitch being a cramp in the diaphragm that is.

[Colin]

Pink Lady, on Jul 20 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

Hi frankie17 - that is an interesting question. My first thought is that they can't be connected because sometimes I get cramps in my calves that wake me up in the middle of the night.

Then I looked up the definition of muscle cramp in Wikidedia, only to discover that dehydration. low blood salt or sugar, excessive lactic acid, and an electrolyte imbalance caused by heavy sweating, can all cause cramp.

I wouldn't trust Wikipaedia. The Science of Sport guys did a series on cramping a while back. The usual suspects of salt etc are not really the cause.

They also explain those cramps in bed that you refer to...my wife gets it too and believe me absolutely nothing to do with low salt, amount of training, lactic etc.

To the original poster. Whatever the cause...if you cramp after the 30km mark in the marathon (i.e its not random) then it absolutely has something to do with your effort up to that point vs your level of conditioning....i.e. you do run lower in sugar at that point and the muscles are more fatigued.

More training definitely extends this point. The biggest single cause of cramp when exercising (i.e. not the ones at random during night etc) is fatigue and this is something that can be affected by effort (pace) and condition.

Have a read of that link and some of the other related topics posted.

cheers

[2feetoffground]

Some more reading material

Edited by 2feetoffground, 20 July 2009 - 11:37 PM.

[Gasher]

Colin, on Jul 20 2009, 10:44 PM, said:

To the original poster. Whatever the cause...if you cramp after the 30km mark in the marathon (i.e its not random) then it absolutely has something to do with your effort up to that point vs your level of conditioning....i.e. you do run lower in sugar at that point and the muscles are more fatigued.

More training definitely extends this point. The biggest single cause of cramp when exercising (i.e. not the ones at random during night etc) is fatigue and this is something that can be affected by effort (pace) and condition.
cheers

frankie17, have to agree with the advice above being a bad cramper myself in the past. If you push too fast for too long, relative to your training then you are setting yourself up for some pain. I sufferred badly from cramps & the ONLY solution I found was to increase my kms in training & during a race run at a pace that was commensurate with my real ability (not some best case senario). If you increase you kms a bit & back off the pace you'll be surprised at how you 'magically' push the cramp point out further & further.

Best luck with your next race.

[frankie17]

2feetoffground, on Jul 20 2009, 11:33 PM, said:

Some more reading material

2fog,

This is a great article. As a cramper I am actually unsure which category I am in and reading the para just b4 the conclusion I think I might be both.

I am certainly going to do more stretching (overload camp) and also up my salty fluid intake even though I thought I had been doing it ok (electrolyte deficit). In Septebemr I will go prepared with a magic bolus (dissolve 3g NaCl in 500ml and skull in <5mins) and see what happens...I hope to be pleasantly surpised.

In the meantime I will be working at upping the last stages of my long run pace (per McMillan) to get some HTFU in my various leg muscles. 9 weeks out may not be enough to make a big impact there though...

And there is still the wall. Hopefully with better legs I can sidle around it next time...

Thanks fer everyones advice.

Edited by frankie17, 21 July 2009 - 03:38 PM.