13 replies to this topic

[shotis]

Dear knowledge bank,

Please discuss the merits and negatives surrounding backing up long course racing. My interest here is 6ft track and IM Aus but lets rip on this topic generally and see what where it goes.

Given a theoretical 2 week recovery can the body completely recover and race to potential at the second outing? I completely understand the "everybody is different" issue here so personal experiences are more than welcome in either a merit or negative outcome scenario. I hope that folk of the ilk of Brick and Paul Every, B+ can provide a fountain of information here.

What are your personal experiences? Positive? Negative? If possible what did you do to aid recovery between races? How did the mental approach to either race effect the outcome? Medical expert comments. Mental health experts comments. Coaches thoughts.

Shot'is

[kb]

You can dooooo eeeeet.

kb

[Helmet]

Several years ago I did 6ft and then Canberra 50km.

It wasn't too bad but I really felt the last 8km of the 50.

You are hard core Rev Dr Shot'is - just suck it up and do it!

H

[MommaAndPoppaBear]

We will cheer for you at IM Shot'is.

But just don't beat kb or helmet.

[shotis]

thanks for the support guys! We will see with my personal ambitions, stay tuned.

Surely not everybody is on holidays right now and can add to this thread! I was hoping that this could be used for resource building rather than ego fluffing. Come on now lurkers!!

[MrD]

Hey Shotis,

It all comes down to your conditioning and how quickly your body recovers from tough racing. This is different for everyone so it's hard to say...but if you are training for an ironman I'm guessing you are one fit athlete so perhaps what you are proposing is quite possible. I have done similar; back to back marathons a week apart, did a 100km MTB race followed by a half marathon the week after etc, and I don't think it affected my performance.

The only thing that strikes me about your intended double, is that 6 foot is a particularly demanding and brutal race that puts a lot of strain on your body, much more than say a standard road marathon. Your whole body (but your leg muscles in particular) are going to get a hammering, ie, calves from all the uphill running involved and your quads and hammies from the downhill stuff and if you've got an Ironman 2 weeks later there could still be lingering pain.

The other thing of course is the risk of injury on the 6 foot track is significant...ankles, knees, other parts of the body from a fall etc. Do you really want to risk a $700 entry fee to Ironman by running 6 foot?

But saying that, I would probably do both.

[Horrie]

I am one of those that always seems to be backing up after something. To be able to back up you have to put a lot of work into your recovery. Gentle swimming, stretching, compression tights, diet and supplements all play their role. Once you feel as though you have recovered, you just start building towards the next event. I feel that your performances do suffer a little, even though there are some out there who don't always show signs of this happening.

[Paul Every]

I have run 6 Foot on six occasions and each time I have backed it up with Ironman Oz.

I am not sure of the intervals between the two races on those years (with the exception of 2009, they are all ancient history), but I never recall 'saving myself' for Ironman by running 6 Foot conservatively, but rather I always viewed a hard 6 Foot as part of my Ironman prep.

If you are going to do the double, it is important to train accordingly (back-to-back quality long sessions) and to pay due attention look after your 6 Foot recovery (ice, hydration, food, NSAIDs, stretching, active recovery, etc).

Looking back at my 6 Foot times, my best double was in '94 when I ran my PB of 4:12 (just behind some sicko!) and backed up with a sub 10 at Forster.

[EverReadyBunny]

Hi Shotis,

I think if you want to do them both then you can do it. 2008 I did my first Ironman and also did Six Foot previous to it. A few people advised me not to do it but I ended up running what is my fastest 6 foot time without really feeling like I was trying. I did work on my recovery and obviously I was fit from my IM training and I don't think my IM time suffered for it.

I also did my first 1/2 IM a few weeks before my 1st 100 miler Great North Walk. Again most people said not highly recommended. For the 1/2 I was happy to just qualify for the IM but in saying that I am not fast anyway so I couldn't just cruise it and get it. I still had to work but as it was my 1st half IM I don't think I would have been aiming to go much faster regardless.

I think they worked for me because I mentally wanted both of those things badly and was willing to do whatever it took. My thoughts are just look inside yourself to see how much you want them, there is no right or wrong answer there. Some races are important to you.

Edited by EverReadyBunny, 03 January 2010 - 11:50 AM.

[shotis]

thanks for the feedback team!

Now to some particulars.

Diet, what's in and what's out? Anything in particular that will help reduce inflammation and speed recovery? For those who know me I presume Palace counter meals are not in the equation here ;-)

Stretching and or massage? How long to wait for massage and or some gentle stretching, etc?

Recovery sessions in the backing up period? Understandably the hard endurance and speed work is all done so what sessions will speed the recovery and keep the fires burning?

Mental refreshing? How and what tools do people use?

Compression wear? Why? What benefits, etc? I already use both long and short compression shorts on occassion but am getting the impression that most of us have been sucked in to some grand marketing white wash. Thoughts?

Shot'is

[Colin]

Shotis,

It depends on your expectations, especially for the second race. If your aim is 'just to finish' then there is usually no problem.

However, if you are targeting a PB or a mariginally achievable time based on other performances, then it isn't a good idea. Ask yourself in Craig Alexander will do it if he wants to win IM.

Taper is probably the number one variable you can control in the lead up to a marathon (and IM no different). You can undo all your training by not tapering. I always say, "better underdone and tapered than well trained and fatigued".

If I were for example an 85min HM, 38:30 10km runner that tries to break 3hrs for first time, then I wouldn't do it because the expected performance is too "marginal" (i.e. it requires everything to fall into place).

Which is why I don't believe that "it didn't affect my second performance"...how do we know that unless we were trying to get a time in a narrow band of marginal achievement?

cheers

[B+]

If you want to finish both of them with OK times then it is entirely doable.
However if you want to PB at one then the other has to be done at a more controlled intensity.

I know several Ironmen who have backed up from 6 foot without issue but in most cases the gap was 4-6 weeks. With only 2 weeks you will need to have a very uneventful day at 6 foot to be in good shape for Port. The Port course is getting easier each year so that may well help you too. less hills on the run.

I personally wouldn't do it as I tend to race to my limit in whatever I enter and as Ironman has always been my priority at that time of year I have avoided doing 6 foot as I really beleive both races are too tough to show up with less than ideal condition in your body.

However Paul is a weapon from an endurance perspective so he will always back up better than the average bear in my opinion.

But with all that said our sporting lives are about testing ourselves and our limits, so if you feel good about it DO IT!!

Train safe

[Aunty K]

shotis, on Jan 4 2010, 09:46 AM, said:

For those who know me I presume Palace counter meals are not in the equation here ;-)

Shot'is

Shot'is - now I thought that the steak at the Palace was excellent recovery food I always have this & feel great.

I think if anyone can do the double it would be YOU!

I believe the past few days out at Six Foot will certainly help you mentally prepare for the race.

Look forward to hearing all about it on Thursday morning.

Cheers!

[Uncle Dave]

I remember asking a similar question when I was hoping to qualify for Hawaii in 2004. From memory, 6FT was 3 weeks before on that occasion.

I ended up being the sweeper at 6FT rather than racing it.

Got my goal and got to go to Hawaii and never had an ounce of regret for not racing 6FT.

Doing reasonably well at both is certainly possible.

However, it goes without saying that you won't be achieving your potential at IM if you race 6FT 3 weeks prior...which, as Colin alluded to, is why you'll never see the likes of Craig Alexander having such prep for IM.

However again, if there's not a goal on the line, race both. Racing's fun. Two races = twice as much fun...just as long as you don't roll an ankle at 6FT and blow your big $$ IM entry fee.

Take care,

Unc