59 replies to this topic

[Hawthorn]

Topic pretty much says it all.

How many of you have shoes that you train in, and then a light race day shoe you use for events?

Obviously im not talking about track shoes/spikes, but road racing shoes.

Was just wondering how many people did this... anyone have a specific reason for not doing it.

thanks.

Edited by Hawthorn, 02 March 2010 - 01:25 PM.

[Bellthorpe]

At the moment I have three pairs of the same brand/model that I rotate for every day running.

Another pair for racing cross country / trail.

Another pair (not actually 'track' shoes, just lighter) for races up to 10k.

[Eagle]

I also rotate a number of pairs of shoes. I use either New Balance or Nike but I have a pair of Nike Marathoner racing flats that I generally use once or twice in training before the marathon and in the road marathon. Why do I do it probably habit and the placebo effect ie 'a dummy pill that has no effect'.

[sigatoka]

I wear the same shoe train or race, but a related question, as it changes the shoe... do people ditch their orthotics when racing as opposed to training?
Reason for asking is I wear custom-made orthotics, but I'm beginning to wonder whether wearing them both in slow and fast runs has made me more injury prone. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Hawthorn]

sigatoka, on Mar 2 2010, 03:37 PM, said:

I wear the same shoe train or race, but a related question, as it changes the shoe... do people ditch their orthotics when racing as opposed to training?
Reason for asking is I wear custom-made orthotics, but I'm beginning to wonder whether wearing them both in slow and fast runs has made me more injury prone. Anyone have thoughts on this?

I have fully custom orthotics myself. I got them a year or so ago because i had really bad shin splints, my friendly podiatrist told me it was due to overpronating and running on hard surfaces too much (mostly from playing hockey, as that is basically like running on concrete with no so good running shoes, tho with asics and adidas coming into the market over the last few years things have gotten better in the hockey shoe world).

Anyway over 2 months with some ice and orthotics use my shin splints left and i have had no injury problems since that point, and my running has increased over that period (hockey has been the same). So in my experience i dont see that using them would cause you to be more injury prone.

Having said that if i go for some light race day shoes, i will wear them 6-10 times before the day to wear them in, and i dont plan to wear orthotics while i wear them in or on race day.

Those are my thoughts, hope it helps.

[Hawthorn]

Eagle, on Mar 2 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

I also rotate a number of pairs of shoes. I use either New Balance or Nike but I have a pair of Nike Marathoner racing flats that I generally use once or twice in training before the marathon and in the road marathon. Why do I do it probably habit and the placebo effect ie 'a dummy pill that has no effect'.

Hahaha, im totally with you mate.

Even if something has no real impact, if it makes feel comfortable and helps you perform then i figure you should use it.

[sigatoka]

In that case, presuming you put your orthotics in neutral shoes, would you be looking to run in racers with some arch support to make up for the missing orthotics?

[Hawthorn]

sigatoka, on Mar 2 2010, 04:12 PM, said:

In that case, presuming you put your orthotics in neutral shoes, would you be looking to run in racers with some arch support to make up for the missing orthotics?

Yes, there are a couple of support racing shoes around. They are not quite as light, but still lighter then my normal shoes.

It's an idea i have only been kicking about for a few weeks tho, so as yet i am undecided.

[miners]

I throw my orthotics in the neutral lightweight trainers I use for racing, and then slip them back into the neutral trainers I use for every day use (2x pairs which I rotate). The orthotics naturally add a little weight to the racing pair, but they're still lighter than my everyday shoes.

But as Eagle mentioned, at my pace, the racing pair are really only for the placebo effect anyway. The orthotics are the real security blanket

[CootaGC]

I notice above a couple of you mention rotating your shoes. If you are in SE Queensland at present I could understand why, they are probably wet from the last run. What are the other reasons (if there are any) you rotate your shoes? I usually buy 1 pair, wear them until they reach their used by date and then replace them.

[DontStop]

CootaGC, on Mar 2 2010, 05:17 PM, said:

I notice above a couple of you mention rotating your shoes. If you are in SE Queensland at present I could understand why, they are probably wet from the last run. What are the other reasons (if there are any) you rotate your shoes? I usually buy 1 pair, wear them until they reach their used by date and then replace them.

The most important reason is that the midsole can often take longer than 24 hours to fully recover from use, so if you don't rotate shoes, there's a chance you're running on slightly degraded midsoles next time out.

Manufacturers also suggest that you'll get slightly more kms out of them if you rotate 2 pairs.

Also I think they tend to get less manky and stinky if you give them a 48 hour breather.

[Jason M]

Always race in racing flats.

Most training is done in Brooks Adrenaline GTS.
Most racing is done in Brooks T6 Racer.

I wear orthotics in both.

Typically I haven't noticed any difference in recovery rates between different shoes from races. Yet I definitely feel faster in a light weight racing shoe.

[Davo83]

another who always races in flats (T5 racers)
Do all my training in 1 pair of nike pegasus's. Once i increase my training i will definately buy another pair of nikes to rotate.
My recovery gets worse as i progress down from flats to MD spikes to sprint spikes, which is to be expected i guess.

Going from flats to regular shoes is like having bricks on your feet and i feel the flats get me into that racing frame of mind.

Edited by Davo83, 02 March 2010 - 07:21 PM.

[Eagle]

CootaGC, on Mar 2 2010, 05:17 PM, said:

I notice above a couple of you mention rotating your shoes. If you are in SE Queensland at present I could understand why, they are probably wet from the last run. What are the other reasons (if there are any) you rotate your shoes? I usually buy 1 pair, wear them until they reach their used by date and then replace them.

Another reason is if they are all in a different state of usuage - that is each is not worn down the same then you might be saving yourself from an injury by having different levels of support rather then running with the same shoes as they wear down. Nothing based on any science here - again probably done out of habit than a proven injury prevention system.

[thomo]

CootaGC, on Mar 2 2010, 05:17 PM, said:

I usually buy 1 pair, wear them until they reach their used by date and then replace them.

The problem you have then is trying to find a replacement.

The model has been superseded, old model not available even online.

Waste time trying to find a replacement that was like your old one. Get injured and waste money on a shoe that is not right.

I currently have about 5 or so pairs on the go.

I use to when I had a lot more hair than now trained to heavier shoes and raced to flats. Worked for me.

[Hawthorn]

people who wear orthotics, just wondering, do you all cut your innersoles to fit them in well, or do you have the long ones that replace the innersoles?

[nando]

I used to wear lighter shoes for those races I am targeting, as it helped put me in the mindset that it was a big race. It seemed to work.

But now my training shoes are also reasonably light, so I don't bother. And I haven't had a PB in some time, so there might be something in this.

[Emrun]

I race in flats or lightweight trainers, depending on the distance, both have minimal pronation control and I do wear my orthotics.

For short track races and all cross country I wear spikes but with no orthotics because they don't fit.

[Jason M]

Hawthorn, I might be a bit difference to most other people in how I use my orthotics (haven't found anyone who does the same yet).

What I do is remove the inner sole and just place my orthotic in the shoe. The orthotics only go halfway along my foot, so no full length cover. Therefore the front half of my foot rest on the base of the shoe. I have done this for about 10 years and it suits me.

[Hawthorn]

Jason M, on Mar 3 2010, 10:41 AM, said:

Hawthorn, I might be a bit difference to most other people in how I use my orthotics (haven't found anyone who does the same yet).

What I do is remove the inner sole and just place my orthotic in the shoe. The orthotics only go halfway along my foot, so no full length cover. Therefore the front half of my foot rest on the base of the shoe. I have done this for about 10 years and it suits me.

thats what i do for my hockey shoes (just seems to fit really well that way), but i have cut back the edges of the insoles on my running shoes to fit them.

I think i might just go with a stability lightweight shoe, no orthotics. I think brooks had one that was pretty light and should offer good support.

This has been a really helpful thread btw people.

[Emrun]

Jason M, on Mar 3 2010, 10:41 AM, said:

Hawthorn, I might be a bit difference to most other people in how I use my orthotics (haven't found anyone who does the same yet).

What I do is remove the inner sole and just place my orthotic in the shoe. The orthotics only go halfway along my foot, so no full length cover. Therefore the front half of my foot rest on the base of the shoe. I have done this for about 10 years and it suits me.

I do this too, I don't know if it is right or wrong, it just seemed logical, I have a full length orthotic.

But I can never bring myself to throw the shiny new innersoles away so they sit in the box until I am done with the shoe, then I put the innersole back in again as I keep the shoes until someone is organising a collection to send overseas for various charites.

[rivercat]

Hawthorn, on Mar 3 2010, 08:01 AM, said:

people who wear orthotics, just wondering, do you all cut your innersoles to fit them in well, or do you have the long ones that replace the innersoles?

I used to just remove the insole, but with my current 3/4 orthotics my podiatrist suggested putting them under the insoles. This works fine and makes the orthotics more comfortable to run on (although obviously it takes up more space in the shoe).

[runningcat]

I have 3-4 to rotate with. Same shoes that I wear on races, depending on the distance and the course and how I feel. However one of them is just for training (VFF). The Mizunos are mostly for short-medium distances and I like the comfort and lightness of Nikes in longer distance training/races. Justa a mater of personal choice and comfort

[tomh]

For those who wear support shoes (e.g Adrenaline, 2150, Triax, ...) and race without much support, how do you pull up at the end of a half or a full? I'd imagine pretty sore or injured?

[sigatoka]

That's kind of what I was wondering earlier, too. I recall reading a post by one of the harder-running CRs (Swaggerer I think) that orthotics corrected his gait at a certain pace (long, slow runs?) but that he ditched them on faster runs, because the change in pace changed the nature of his stride (less heel strike? - I'm guessing now). So maybe there's a similar logic to switching from stability trainers for everyday use to low support shoes for racing... I don't know. I think we need an expert to help us out here.

[Johnso]

Jason M, on Mar 2 2010, 06:14 PM, said:

Always race in racing flats.

Most training is done in Brooks Adrenaline GTS.
Most racing is done in Brooks T6 Racer.

I wear orthotics in both.

Typically I haven't noticed any difference in recovery rates between different shoes from races. Yet I definitely feel faster in a light weight racing shoe.

Hi Jason,

I also have Adrenaline for training but race in Racer ST. I have recently gone back to orthotics due to Achilles issues but have yet to race since. I was planning to use the Racer ST without the orthotics but now you have made me think about using them. Will have to test that out in training.

I have run the half marathon in the Racer ST but went back to the Adrenaline for the marathon. Do you the marathon in the T6 Racer?

[PhilN]

I do all my training with custom made Orthotics but find them very heavy for racing. 10k and under I run in Racing flats with my foot taped for support as shown to me by my Physio, 1/2 and full I run with an off the shelf Orthothic that has a heel lift added to it and and also tape support. I tend to have a little bit of tenderness after a 10k but no swelling this is usually gone by the next day, all other races no problem at all.

[sigatoka]

PhilN, on Mar 3 2010, 09:36 PM, said:

I do all my training with custom made Orthotics but find them very heavy for racing. 10k and under I run in Racing flats with my foot taped for support as shown to me by my Physio, 1/2 and full I run with an off the shelf Orthothic that has a heel lift added to it and and also tape support. I tend to have a little bit of tenderness after a 10k but no swelling this is usually gone by the next day, all other races no problem at all.

Thanks, that's useful to know. I haven't tried the tape support but do use the off-the-shelf orthotic with extra heel lift combo for races (8-21km) and hard 5k training runs. I use the custom-made plastic orthotics for all other (slower/longer) runs... for me it's not that they feel too heavy for faster running, but that I land too heavily on them when I'm running harder, and that their stiffness then over-resists, or over-corrects my inclination to pronate. But this could all be in my mind - every time I think I've got it figured out, the achilles plays up again.

[Caterpillar]

tomh, on Mar 3 2010, 11:49 AM, said:

For those who wear support shoes (e.g Adrenaline, 2150, Triax, ...) and race without much support, how do you pull up at the end of a half or a full? I'd imagine pretty sore or injured?

Train in ASICS 2150, and have tried marathons in ASICS DS Racers and Trainers. Am an overpronator and heel striker and wear orthotics for the former. With the DS Racers, imploded badly at the halfway mark, with dreadful quad pain from 30km onwards. With Trainers, unexpected quad soreness noticeable at the halfway mark, with a difference between my first and second half of around 10 minutes. I'll do the Melbourne Marathon in my ASICS 2150s, in the hope that the quad soreness won't eventuate.

[jvt]

sigatoka, on Mar 2 2010, 03:37 PM, said:

I wear the same shoe train or race, but a related question, as it changes the shoe... do people ditch their orthotics when racing as opposed to training?
Reason for asking is I wear custom-made orthotics, but I'm beginning to wonder whether wearing them both in slow and fast runs has made me more injury prone. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Sigatoka my old friend (i.e. my old avatar), it's three months on and I think I can answer that now - I've been running the odd interval session and races WITHOUT orthotics and my achilles problem has resolved itself. Also, I no longer use heel lifts at all. I've gone four months without injury now, which is a PB.
I'm starting to think that heel lifts and orthotics may have been WORSE for my heels, esp at faster paces, because I'm a natural mid-foot runner, and the extra heel support INCREASED stress on my heels by adding half a cm or more to my heel length, thus skewing my running style from mid-foot to heel landing. It's also/alternatively possible that the heel support(s) increased heel instability.
On slower runs, when I'm more inclined to land on my heel-to-mid-foot, the orthotics remain appropriate.

[AndyP]

I love threadmining, and this seemed like the most appropriate thread to dig up, after going back a couple of years.

I have a voucher for a running store, and I was initially looking to buy some trail shoes. However, I'm not running on them enough to justify it. I find that I'm running quite a few shorter races in 3k and 5k runs, even 1500m, on track and 5k on the road. So I was thinking that some specific race shoes might be the go, but I know nothing about them, so I've had a bit of a look about the forum without learning too much.

From what I could find, perhaps I should look into lightweight trainer, instead of flat racers to start with? Right now, I do all of my running in my normal runners, Mizuno Inspire Waves, which are for moderate over pronation.

Any advice or guidance is appreciated.

[shark]

Andy

This is an interesting topic. For me, I have several pairs of trainers that I rotate - some are big and heavy that do the majority of distance, some are for short distance. I'm a neutral runner and focus on comfort when buying a shoe. I have a pair of lightweight trainers (Speedstar ASICS) that I use for races if I'm injury free. I genuinely believe they cut time off for me. If I wear them for a marathon (rare for me) then my time is always better than expected but I always pull up a bit sore. It's worth it.

I have thought of getting an ultra light pair of racers - the Nike is paper thin and gives almost no support, but it feels comfortable.

My take is that you need all the support and cushioning for the majority of k's you do but if you are in reasonable nick, then go for it. I even wear really old shoes in a race because recovery is not the problem, the problem is speed. If you save a few grams each step, it must help.

s

[vat]

AndyP, on 10 November 2011 - 08:54 PM, said:

From what I could find, perhaps I should look into lightweight trainer, instead of flat racers to start with? Right now, I do all of my running in my normal runners, Mizuno Inspire Waves, which are for moderate over pronation.

Yeah, that's a good way to go about it, and pretty much how I got into flats 6 or 7 years ago. What sort of race distances were you thinking about?

[AndyP]

Brisbane Road Runners 5k and Queensland Masters Athletics 5k and 3k seems to be the focus, with the QMA 1500m chucked in, as they are on the same day as the 3k. At some stage, I might do 10k racing again, but I rarely do any runs over 10k now.

[vat]

Definitely worth a try for those short distances.

[AndyP]

Thanks. I'll pop into InTraining soon to grab something.

What models should I be looking at? I think InTraining lists them as "Racer-Trainers" on their website.

Looking through their list, the Asic DS Trainer seemed to be the one that got mentioned a lot in previous threads.

Edited by AndyP, 11 November 2011 - 07:45 AM.

[UnfitnessFanatic]

This is a good topic, it's interesting hearing what others are trianing/racing in.

I train 1 speed session, hills and long slow run in my asic nimbus and run a longer interval session in the middle of those in my racing shoes which are Addidas adios. I love the adios they just feel like a glove on my foot.

One word of warning to people going into a lightweight shoe is be very careful how tight you do them up. They dont have the same give or cushioning a normal pair of trainers ie Nimbus do around the tongue or where the laces are. My first pair of lightweight shoes was a pair of Addidas F50's and because I did the laces up like I would with my nimbus, I ended up crushing the tendon that comes across the top of my foot up from the big toe.

[undercover brother]

trail sounds good andy

[AndyP]

UFF, you had a racing shoe thread previously that had some good info.

UCB, I won't neglect them, but unfortunately I'm not on them enough or do the amount of kilometres that I used to. If I had have used the voucher when I first received it, I would have definitely got trail shoes, but my situation has changed.

[vat]

Asics DS Trainer or Racer, Brooks T6 put Green Dream. Not sure on other brands

[UnfitnessFanatic]

AndyP, on 11 November 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

UFF, you had a racing shoe thread previously that had some good info.

Did I? LOL I post to much and forget what I have spoken about.

[AndyP]

UnfitnessFanatic, on 11 November 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

Did I? LOL I post to much and forget what I have spoken about.

Pffft, I have 31,000 posts on another forum.

[Max72]

I run and race in VFF (mostly Sprint and KSO road and Trek Sport trail), but I have been looking for another option for race day, especially for marathon distance where if I have a good day (like Brisbane Marathon) I can run in KSOs and feel like I ran 20K at the end of it, or a bad day (SYdney Marathon), where I have a bad day and really feel it in my feet.

So.. I just picked up a pair of Inov-8's bare-x lite 150's. The are a eva soled rave shoe, zero drop, 150g but still with a little more in the sole than the VFF. I tried it on and it feels great. good width in the toe and soo light. Of course how I I'll race in them I don't know. I will do my local 21k route tomorrow and see how much I can push it.

The down side is of course that being EVA it's going to have a shorter lifespan than normal runners. I will try to keep a log and see how I go.

If you haven't seen a pic of the bare-x lite, here it is.
 bare-x lite 150.JPG   554.75K   24 downloads

[meinmuk]

Max72, on 11 November 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

I run and race in VFF (mostly Sprint and KSO road and Trek Sport trail), but I have been looking for another option for race day, especially for marathon distance where if I have a good day (like Brisbane Marathon) I can run in KSOs and feel like I ran 20K at the end of it, or a bad day (SYdney Marathon), where I have a bad day and really feel it in my feet.

So.. I just picked up a pair of Inov-8's bare-x lite 150's. The are a eva soled rave shoe, zero drop, 150g but still with a little more in the sole than the VFF. I tried it on and it feels great. good width in the toe and soo light. Of course how I I'll race in them I don't know. I will do my local 21k route tomorrow and see how much I can push it.

The down side is of course that being EVA it's going to have a shorter lifespan than normal runners. I will try to keep a log and see how I go.

If you haven't seen a pic of the bare-x lite, here it is.
bare-x lite 150.JPG

Anything to declare, Max?

[Max72]

meinmuk, on 11 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Anything to declare, Max?

I assume you mean me working for barefootinc. I declare that after being active on coolrunning for over 4 years, most people reading know this, and after however many posts a disclaimer is not necessary, especially as I did not try to direct anyone to any site where they might find them, and to be honest just about anyone reading already knows where to find wiggle.

That aside my first post still stanza as accurate, I will be doing my 21k tomorrow (empire bay to macmasters and back) and will pass on any worthwhile feedback.

Max

[undercover brother]

AndyP, on 11 November 2011 - 10:07 AM, said:

Pffft, I have 31,000 posts on another forum.

golf?

[AndyP]

undercover brother, on 11 November 2011 - 09:44 PM, said:

golf?

Yep. I am the site owner though.

[AndyP]

I haven't had a chance to get to the store yet, but I'll think about it this weekend. I'm still open to any tips people want to pass on.

Has anyone had trouble jumping straight to a flat racing shoe without adjusting to a lightweight trainer first?

[AndyP]

I went to the store today and got some Mizuno Ronins, which is a racing flat shoe not a lightweight trainer. They aren't hardcore flats though like the Nikes I tried (and my heels were too fat for) or the Mizuno Universe (which was a bit too expensive).

They'll make their debut tomorrow in a 5k without a trial. I'm reading that they could make 15s difference, which is making it tough to set a goal time for.

[undercover brother]

is this the correct thread to confess i own a pair of racing flats?